 Hey everybody, tonight we are debating veganism and we're starting right now. These gentlemen thrilled to have you here for another epic debate. If this is your first time here at Modern Day Debate, we are a neutral platform, hosting debates on science, religion and politics. And we wanna let you know, no matter what walk of life you are from, we are thrilled to have you here with us. We hope you feel welcome. And wanna let you know, if you are sick in the head like us and you let juicy, controversial debates, wanna let you know, consider hitting that subscribe button because we have many more debates to come. So for example, at the bottom right of your screen, we're excited that CosmicSkeptic will be back this month for a classic for actually similar to tonight. In that case, it'll be titled Is Veganism Morally Obligatory? So that should be a fun one and many others. So with that, we're gonna get into what the format will be like for tonight's debate. Be a roughly 10 minute opening statement from each side, starting with vegan gains. And that's something that they don't have to use the whole 10 minutes that they don't want to is up to them to use what they think they need. And then we'll go into open conversation for about 60 minutes followed by Q and A for about 30 minutes. So if you happen to have a question, feel free to fire it into the old live chat. And if you tag me with at modern day debate it makes it easier for me to get every question into that list. So we are excited to have our guests here. They're linked in the description folks. So if you wanna hear more from our guests, well, hey, what are you waiting for? Those links are waiting in the description box for you right now. And so we'll start with Richard. We'll start with vegan gains, thrilled to have you here. What can people expect to find at your link? And thanks so much for being back with us. So main content on my channel is vegan related. I talk about health and fitness a lot. I also cover some political topics and I also just make stupid, funny videos occasionally just for entertainment. So that's what you can expect to find on my channel. Absolutely. Thanks so much. And first timer, gambling saint, thrilled to have you here. What can people expect to find at your link in the description? Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me James. But yeah, there's nothing at my link. So expect to find absolutely nothing. You got it. Well, thank you very much. And with that, we're gonna have vegan gains get it started kind of laying out the broad position that he has for tonight. This started with a, these guys have an interesting story, a little spat, a little feud that started on Twitter and spilled over into modern day debate. So we're excited to have them. And so with that, the floor is all yours, vegan gains. All right, so veganism is the ethical belief that you should minimize the unnecessary suffering, death and exploitation of animals as much as reasonably possible. I believe we should be logically consistent with our moral beliefs. And I think veganism is just a logical extension of our beliefs on human rights. So I think for the same fundamental reasons you believe, we believe that other humans should have rights. We should also extend some of these rights to animals. So I would just challenge anyone to name a trait that is lacking in animals that if lacking in a human being would also justify taking away that human beings rights. Absolutely, thanks very much. Vegan gains will switch it over to gambling saint in about 10 minutes to make your opening statement. And then we'll go into open conversation. Okay, I'm ready to begin. I guess we'll start with moral status. An entity has moral status. If an entity, if the only if it's interest matter to some degree for the entity's own sake, such that it can be wrong. And then I guess we'll, where I disagree with vegans for the most part, is on a doctrine called moral individualism. And moral individualism is a doctrine that says, we ought to determine the treatment of an individual by not by its group membership, but by its particular characteristics. So just going from here, vegan gains laid out to name the trait argument, which is basically just name a morally relevant trait. Yep, looks like he disconnected. Peer to have lost the gambling saint. So we will give him a moment to jump back in. Maybe I did think I heard a little bit of bustling. So maybe he accidentally clicked the off or the end call button, but we will. In the meantime, remind you folks, those of our guests are linked in the description. Also want to say it's exciting. Want to say thanks everybody for your support as we had our epic first Kickstarter crowdfunded epic debate with Dr. Michael Shermer and inspiring philosophy. That was a blast, you guys. Seriously, I honestly loved it. I hope you guys did as well. And thanks everybody for your support. By the way, if you were one of the Kickstarter backers who signed up for either the zoom chat reward or the postcard reward, let me know because I do want to send out those postcards for both people, both groups. So haven't gotten a ton of addresses yet, but we appreciate your guys' generosity. And so maybe you're like, I don't care about the postcard, but believe me, they're epic and I want to send these postcards out. So with that anyway, we will hopefully we hear back from gambling saint. Otherwise I do have many other things to tell you guys, just this morning, for some reason PayPal for the longest time they had a hold on her account. And I don't know why, but a lot of people were like, hey, I don't want to like sign up for like a Patreon like monthly kind of gift. I just want to do like a one time shot. Can I do it some other way? And I was like, yeah, let me see PayPal. And they're like, nope, PayPal doesn't work. So if you would like to give, we appreciate it. And PayPal is up and running again. I think Ms. Dollface, if I remember right, she had asked about that in the last live stream that we had. So other news, we are on virtually all major podcasts, folks. We're gonna give gambling saint just a few minutes because this is, I'm not exactly sure what's going on, but we do want to let you know we are on virtually every major podcast. So we would highly encourage you folks, do check that out on the bottom or I should say on the far right side of your screen. We are on all of those podcasts, Spotify, Apple, the two big ones as well as Audible, Pandora, Amazon Music, Google, you name it. If you can't find us on your favorite podcast app, let us know we'll work to get on there for you. And also want to let you know if you love Twitch. If you love it more than YouTube, you're like, hey, YouTube is cool, but I prefer Twitch. Good news, we have made affiliate status on Twitch, which means if you have that Amazon Prime free subscription, you can use that for modern day debate to help support us. If you're not using it already, you're like, hey, don't let it go to waste. It's no extra cost to you. Is that you can help support us by subscribing to us on Twitch as that helps. We really do appreciate it and we're excited for our Twitch to grow. So one to let you know about that. Let me just double check that. Gambling saint has come back. Okay, is this some sort of tasteless joke, gambling saint? All right, one last thing. I will say, otherwise I think in a moment here, because this is just kind of not looking good. I will say, I did see someone else in the live chat who had said that they might be up for a debate, namely sunflower. So that's one that we might have to schedule because right now it looks like, man, vegan games was up for a debate. He was up to throw it down. And I don't know what gambling saint is up to. I don't know if it's his service. So I don't want to throw him under the bus. It was already getting pretty stupid. We hope he comes back. We'll give him just a minute. Otherwise, let's see. I know sunflower, I know you're out there. You had said you might be willing to debate a vegan. You didn't specify, but I imagine. I mean, vegan gains is a vegan. So that would work if you're willing. James W. Hello, good to see you. See you in the chat there. And then sunflower, I told you to email me. Let me check. All right, so what we are going to do is let me just quick check my email. See if sunflower actually did email me. And I will share the link with him if he wants and we will start a brand new debate. Are you okay with that vegan gains? I know it's, we're already talking to you. Yeah, I'm fine. You got it. Okay, so let me just see if he's emailed me. And if he has, I'll send him the link right now and we'll do a spontaneous epic debate. All right, sorry, gambling saint. Out with the old and in with the new. Basically just sent the link to sunflower. So folks, sunflower will be in in just a moment. He said he's- Can you hear your browser? Yeah, I know. He said he's rearing and ready. So it should be a fun one. And what we will do is get this one going. So thanks for your patience. Also other quick, quick plugs. Want to let you guys know, Matt DeLahunty will be back this month for a debate on biblical slavery. He and Dr. Joshua Bowen will be partnering and that will be against Cliff and Stuart Nettle, the father son duo. And I'm not joking this time. Usually we say somebody is somebody's son to like make fun of them, but Stuart really is Cliff's son and they're a tremendous duo. We really do appreciate those guys, really kind fellows. And we were all so excited as I think I had mentioned. No, I hadn't mentioned yet. Tom Jump will be debating John Perry. So that should be one. So that should be an epic one. That's coming up this Wednesday, folks. Hope you can make that. That's on whether or not there is code within DNA. And here we go. Sunflower has entered the building. Thank you. Let's see if he can hear me. Sunflower, can you hear me? Yes, I can. Awesome. I don't know if you're in a dark room. I can't see you at all. I just see a black screen. It's like totally. Should I turn? I mean, can I use like a avatar? If you must. Okay. If you can't, what I can do is. Should be able to. Let me see. Is my mic okay? Or is it too loud or too quiet? No, you're actually at a fine level. And what we will do is. I can put up a thing. No, no, it's all right. Well, yeah, if you want to put a picture, you can. But in the meantime, want to let you know, folks, we are going to have this debate. It's going to happen. And so we appreciate sunflower for jumping in in this unique case. And who was it? I forget, I'm trying to remember. Gambling Saint, what sort of tasteless joke was this? This is the second one in a row. That's right, cause we had Saturday, Nephilim Free left 10 minutes into the stream to start a stream on his own channel. The ultimate bamboozle of all of us. But we are excited for tonight. And so welcome. If you don't worry about the picture, I'm okay with jumping into it if you are. And we have a black screen right now, but that's something that I can fix. And so what I will do is fix that. And in the meantime, if you want to do your opening in response to Richard's opening, we can jump in from there. Okay, sure. Yeah. So, the idea that the devil was in the details on the way veganism was defined there, right? Reducing animal harm as much as reasonably possible is absolutely subjective, not only from culture to culture, but from even individual to individual. So someone with, you know, what they would with extensive knowledge who's read dozens or hundreds or thousands of studies on different approaches to nutrition, how they can get adequate nutrition from different supplements or different foods is in a position to obviously reduce their animal product intake way more than someone who is maybe even illiterate or has virtually no access to verify or check on any of the studies that could be referenced, but has just been through maybe family history or their own personal life knows that they react well to certain foods and not well to other certain foods. So it becomes a strange thing to say that one can be compelled to make certain choices with even though someone like Richard in this case or the vegan would never be able to know to what level the person they're arguing to is convinced that they can replace animal products. So that's really one of the central points of the argument for me here. It's not the only one. Another one I would say is that people... One of the weirder things I've seen is that in the vegan community, I don't know anything about if Richard's for this, but there's arguments to the extent that some vegans argue against like even use it, even companies like Beyond Meat or Meat Placements, even acquiring, procuring or consuming meat or having some volunteers consume meat, real meat, just to test against fake meat. They say that even that is outside of what's ethically permissible because of course, this requires some level of like trial and error and quote, gambling or risk. And if you're killing animals and eating them in order to test your product against real meat, that's sort of a capitalist adventure that might not work out. So at that point that you could get into even more, minutiae from the ethical argument there, but I'm not necessarily sure if Richard or if supports that perspective, that even that's not permissible, but yeah, I'd say for an opening, that's two of my stronger points. So yeah. Okay, it sounds like these two things are just related. So you're saying it's okay to murder animals because of nutrition? Well, I'm not saying it's okay to murder animals. I'm saying that when you say, your definition of veganism was reducing whatever, like death or death. Animal suffering, death exploitation as much as reasonably possible. Right, which is just totally subjective. Like there's no, if that doesn't- Okay, well, there's subjectivity to this, but I mean, I think we can agree to, we could agree to some sort of principle on reducing child exploitation and suffering as much as reasonably possible to whatever extent we can. Just because that's a subjective statement, that doesn't mean we don't have a goal and we know what we're talking. We both have the same sort of goal and we can establish what isn't, isn't reasonable. Well, okay, but- Okay, it doesn't have to be like, I don't even understand how to make a definition of veganism where you could have some sort of objective standard when there's so many like weird, moral gray areas. Oh, really? Well, it's pretty easy to make an objective standard. It's just don't eat any animal products. That's what virtually, that's what in the Western world, that's like the objective standard, almost all vegans, like, virtually all vegans. Right, and that's what all vegans agree on. So why does that have to be part of the definition? You just said, you don't even know how you would make an objective standard. It's like one of the only like groups, advocacy groups that has the most explicit and easy objective standard to abide by. Like, it really not that difficult, you know? And vegans often say like, oh yes, stranded on an island. Like, yeah, that is true. It's these examples don't exist. It's very easy to invoke an objective standard. It's just don't eat animal products, period. And everyone- Well, that's what vegans do. Exactly. Why are you hanging on this, like the definition? And I think it makes more sense to have, and I think it makes more sense to have that sort of more subjective definition. That's a little bit open to interpretation because, I mean, there are moral gray areas where some people aren't gonna agree, like animal testing with vaccines or medical technology, survival situations where if you're stranded on a desert island, things like that. But technically, according to your definition, your intro, if someone just believes, I will perish if I don't eat a pound of red meat a day. If they actually believe that, if they're completely convinced of that, they would literally be a vegan according to your definition. No. Why not? No, because it's a fact that they don't need to eat meat. It's not a fact. This is all based on someone's, like how much information they have, what they're convinced by, right? No, well, it doesn't matter what they believe. The fact is they don't need to eat meat to survive. But someone's personal decision making regarding their diet is never gonna be perfectly aligned with like the objective truth of how much, like the exact precise amount they need to survive. Everyone's making a personal decision regarding that whenever they decide how much food they eat, period. So to say like, it doesn't matter what they believe, what are they supposed to base it on? How do they tap into the objective truth of exactly what they need to meet the bare minimum? Okay, so you can get a blood test and see if you're deficient in any vitamins, nutrients. Well, no, again, this comes down to somebody taking all the information they have, taking the data they have, and then making a decision and saying based on this, I'm gonna try to eat this much meat or exclude this much meat. Like you just said it doesn't matter what they think. Well, how else are people making decisions based on their diet, besides making a personal decision based on the information they have, which is obviously not perfect information, especially with every year new data comes out. Like I don't know what exactly are you getting at here? Like are people saying, are you saying that people should make decisions to aim to reduce or do we somehow, are some people able to actually perfectly reduce the amount of animal suffering that comes from their diet? That doesn't seem possible. Can you like explain what the hell you're even talking about because you're- Yeah, okay, sure. You should settle a whole lot of nothing. Okay, sure. So like, if I'm not familiar with supplements or vegan foods that can get meat, sufficient B12 iron adequate amino acid profile, vitamin D, if I'm just literally not familiar with the vegan foods and supplements, that will get me that. What do I do in order to be aligned with your definition of vegan in the intro? Do I just like, what do I do? I mean, if animal foods are in my diet, I don't know of the non-animal- Yeah, you use Google, you look online, how do I get X-materials of these? Oh, really? So what are you arguing for? You're compelling people to literally, they have to do research until they find out a diet that infinitely reduces these products. When do they stop? What if I look up vitamin D supplements for that I don't find the iron and B12 stuff? At what point do I stop going down the rabbit hole of how much could I reduce my impact on animals? It just never stops, I just keep going forever. Okay, how about you just make an argument? Yeah, my argument is, it's not possible to reach the maximum amount of animal harm and death reduction in one's personal diet. So your intro- Okay, so again, let's go back to the definition of veganism. Veganism seeks to reduce or exclude any kind of animal suffering, death exploitation as much as reasonably possible. So let's say, I don't know, one particular agricultural product, like this might not necessarily be true. Let's say rice kills more animals indirectly than something like beans, okay? I don't think anyone has any sort of obligation to not eat rice anymore. And the reason being is like, we're not arguing to absolutely maximize to the greatest extent possible how much we could reduce animal suffering and death. Like if we really had that goal, then we'd have to basically destroy civilization, never be able to use any cars, that's what any computers think. No, that is the logical end of veganism. No, it's not. No, it's not. So nobody who's vegan is arguing to end human civilization. We're not explicitly, implicitly, not explicitly. Okay, cool. Are you strong-manning? We're not strong-manning you, but I was saying like- No, we're strong-manning. Okay, so let me ask you a question. Look, no one's arguing to end human civilization. It's nowhere in the definition of veganism that we have to maximize to the absolute greatest extent possible to reduce any animal suffering and death. No, it's just as much as reasonably possible. Okay, but that varies. Each person is different. Okay, great. Okay, so why don't you? Okay, so my favor of destroying humanity. Okay. Or human technology. Wait, let me finish. So how about you argue against my position? Okay, fine, yeah, I will. And that was my original point is that if all I have to do to argue against your position is abide by your definition, then I could think that it's not reasonably possible to not eat three steaks a day. And if I actually believe that, I'm not saying if I am lying about it, that would be bullshit. But if there's people out there that do believe they need to eat animal products to get sufficient nutrition, if they actually believe that, then they are abiding by your definition of veganism. As long as they're not eating excess meat, no, they're not. No, they're not. What are they not? That's what I'm missing here. That's the central point of my argument here. Okay, because we can objectively prove that you don't need to eat three steaks a day. No, no, this is the problem. Any meat, this is the problem, Richard. Because, because. Okay, you know what? Do you want to do it? No, I couldn't object it. Why do you think so? No, no, no, let's just do it. I couldn't object it. Why is there a slice in animal cereal? Sunflower, we do want a sunflower. Quiet for a second. We do have to hear from Richard as well. So let's give it a two minute interval just to get everything on the table from Richard and then we'll come right back to you. Okay, dude. So why is it more likely acceptable to slice an animal's throat open? Tell me. That's complete. That has nothing to do with my argument at all. Okay, cool, make an argument. Yeah, no, my argument is that if I believe as in I have not seen the data that you're talking about that I can Google that, you know, that allows me to eat supplements or vegan foods. And I believe the only way to get this nutrition is from animal products. I could still abide by reducing my animal product intake as much as I believe is reasonably possible while still eating meat and animal products. That there's no, I'm not going against that definition. Okay, cool. So are you gonna actually make an argument for why you think it's more acceptable to slice an animal's throat open? That is, wait, no, why? No, it's not. You're talking about, no, you're arguing about. You're pivoting. No, no, no, you're arguing. You're pivoting, you're pivoting, dude. Listen, sunflower. Let's just hear from Richard for a second. We'll come right back to you. Okay, so you're arguing about how veganism is defined. Okay, let's switch to the definition. Vegans believe that it is wrong to kill, eat animals or use their byproducts for any reasons that are not necessary, which includes getting, like for food, getting adequate nutrition as when plant options are available, you can eat entirely plant-based. Okay, so let's just change the definition. So what is the argument for why it is more like acceptable to slice an animal's throat open? It is morally acceptable to slice an animal's throat open. If one is completely convinced that that's the only way they can get adequate nutrition and they're not- Okay, so, okay, okay, okay, okay, cool. So if I was absolutely convinced that I had to kill and eat children to get adequate nutrition, I also'll die. Does that make it okay for me to kill and eat children? Um, I would say yes, but you would probably be faced with- Okay, okay, cool. So I think- That's the plea from insanity. I think there's lots of debate right here. No, I didn't at all. Have you ever heard of the plea from insanity that you think that it's a good thing to have in our courts? Okay, you realize you're talking about punish, like legal punishments and social consequences versus whether- If someone isn't aware of what they're doing at all, like they're not aware that they're needlessly killing children and they feel like they're literally fighting for their life by doing so, if they're actually convinced of that, I would not hold them to the same moral standard as someone who is needless doing it for some kind of gratuitous personal pleasure. Of course not. That's different moral category. Those are different moral categories. So you're changing the argument. You're talking about moral agency versus what's morally right and wrong. Yeah, my understanding of morals comes down to, like I mean, unless you're, are you arguing about objective morals here? You're saying, okay, so you're saying if somebody lacks moral agency, it's morally acceptable for them to do anything? Morally, well, what do you mean morally? I would say they're not an immoral person for doing it. I could say like on a utilitarian level, we should stop this person. Okay. What if they do this morally wrong? Would you hold the dog accountable for like attacking a toddler? No. You're talking about moral agency versus what is morally wrong. I would view the pit bull, the pit bull that goes after the neighbor's toddler is the same as the person that's convinced of them. You're not talking about what's morally right or wrong. You're talking about moral agency. So I'm asking you, what is your excuse for slicing an animal's throat open? The differences you're talking about whether or not somebody can be held accountable for their actions versus whether or not their actions are morally acceptable. What is morally acceptable defined as in your, can you define what morally acceptable means? There is no objective definition of morally acceptable. Well, then it's all about moral agents. No, well, then it's all just moral agents. It's just moral subjectivity. Okay, so you're saying it's okay for me to rape a child if I don't have moral agency? Is that what you're saying? No, no, I'm saying, you're not acting immorally if you don't have moral agency. But we can, as a society, try to stop you from doing that because we have collective moral beliefs. But you're not an individual at making an immoral action. Like they're like, okay. So Ted Bundy. You're trying to muddy the waters, dude. I'm really not. I'm really not. I'm really not. The difference between moral agency and whether something is morally right or wrong. Someone could do something morally wrong, but lack moral agency. Yeah, but that actually is what I'm kind of getting hung up on here. I think Ted Bundy and Sam Berger with son of Sam are two different categories. Yeah, they're mentally insane. Sure. Well, one of them is sort of a smirking sociopath that knows these hurting people. One of them seems to be like pretty much delusional to the point where a plea for insanity might be valid. These are two different moral categories, in my opinion, right? There's people that intentionally act evil that do gratuitous harm for their personal pleasure. And there's people that are not even aware that what they're doing is wrong. These are different moral categories. That's what I'm saying here, right? I don't know why that's... I feel like you're muddying the waters because you're saying, what is... Okay, what is your argument? Like, are you arguing that if someone lacks moral agency, it's okay for them to eat meat? Is that what you're arguing? No, no, no. I'm saying that because... They have an argument, dude. Well, now you're interrupting. I mean, are you feeling a little bit flustered because I'm asking you to make an argument because you're just talking in a circle. Okay, sure. So my argument is, my central argument is, based on your definition of veganism in your intro, it is completely out of sync with the overarching central tenet of veganism, which is excluding the consumption of animal products entirely. And I think that the dissonance between that definition and the fact that this is sort of the overarching tenet that vegans abide by is the reason veganism is unreasonable and untenable because it requires you to have knowledge of whether or not someone is needlessly eating meat beyond what they feel that is reasonable for their well-being and nutrition. You're using the same argument now. Now you're saying, if somebody lacks moral agency, then what they're doing is morally acceptable. I mean, how is that not a reasonable thing to say? Okay, so if somebody lacks moral agency, it's okay for them to rape children because they believe they have to. It's not okay for them, but this is such a vague language. Okay, cool. Okay, then you agree that it's wrong to kill and eat animals if you don't need to. Well, we can see someone's actions as wrong to side collectively as society is wrong. It doesn't mean that people can act morally because I don't like, are you saying that there's, do you think there's a difference between person A? I love red meat. I don't need it. It just tastes good. I don't give a fuck about the animals. I just love meat. I don't care. They suffer, they die. Is there a difference between that person and a person in the third world country who's not familiar with supplements and vegan foods? Who's like, this is how I can survive and feed my family without getting malnourished. Is there a difference there to you or not? We already covered the difference. No, no, answer the question. Is there a categorical difference? Yeah, one is moral agency, one doesn't. We've already covered this. So that's irrelevant to you. Moral agency. So if you're gonna argue that lack of moral agency makes it okay for somebody to murder animals, then okay, that would justify somebody raping children if they think it's moral. When you say it's okay, I don't think it's okay. How old are you, by the way? Like people can make moral, I'm not gonna answer that question. I don't see why you think like you're dismissing the fact that people can make deliberately immoral actions that they know are wrong and they can make incidentally immoral actions that they didn't know were wrong. We already read that. Why are you dismissing that? We already read that because of lack of moral agency. So what's the argument? That is the argument. That is the argument. Okay, so if you're arguing that if someone lacks moral agency, then what they're doing is morally acceptable and then that would justify rape. What do you mean morally? No, it's not morally acceptable to me or to society. To them it is. Okay, great. Then you agree with me that it's wrong to kill and get animals if you don't need to. Great. It's just that you don't need to, it's subjective. No, no, if you don't need to. No, it's not subjective. No, it's not subjective. It is subjective. We can objectively prove this. No, we can objectively prove this. Well actually, okay, if you really wanna get into the data here, this, we could go here. I mean- Cool, please show me whether or not human beings need to give me the data. Okay, are you familiar with the fact that the country of Belgium like has basically said that if a parent doesn't follow very strict- An appeal to authority. I'm just asking if you're aware of it. Yeah, it's an appeal to authority. So an entire country, an entire civilized first-world country. Yeah, cool. An entire country fucking tried to massacre all the Jews. So what the fuck does it matter what an entire country does? Give me fucking scientific data showing that you need to meet me to survive. Well, survival isn't the only point of human life. We're not human flourishing. Okay, great. So share me evidence that you need to meet to prevent mortality and morbidity. It's subjective at that point. No, it's not. Give me evidence. Give me evidence that some people don't require it. What do you mean some people don't require it? You just said give me evidence that blah, blah, blah. You need me for this. I'm saying give me evidence that some people don't need meat for it to have those things. I don't know. You can check out the position of the Academy of Nutrition Diet. There's eight billion people in the world. You don't think there's some people out there? Like... Okay, so you can check out the Academy of Nutrition Dietetics, the largest nutrition organization on the planet. They've released a published peer-reviewed statement saying that, yeah, on throughout all stages of the life cycle from pregnancy to adulthood. I'm familiar with that. Vegan diet is perfectly fine. There's other paper, other pediatric papers showing, yeah, vegan kids. They grow the same as meat-eating kids. There are people like myself who've been vegan for over 10 years now. There's people who've been vegan for entire lives. Yeah, you've been vegan over 10 years now. True or false, you have a video saying that you were suffering from psychotic symptoms and you had to take intravenous vitamin B, I mean, or intramuscular rather. That's not healthy. I mean, should everyone... Yeah, guess what? There's some people who lack intrinsic factors so regardless of what they eat, they can't absorb B12. So, yeah. Should people be compelled to take that risk? I mean, what if I don't want to take that risk? What if I don't want to take that risk, though? Risk of what? Of developing psychotic symptoms if I remove too many animal products from my diet. Okay, so we can actually look at research on this. What if I don't want to look at research? Yeah, great. Vegans do not have higher risk of B12 deficiency so long as they eat fortified foods or supplements. What if I don't access them for the psychotic symptoms? Sunflower, we do. Just let them finish at least one second. So the reason I was suffering from psychotic symptoms a while ago, it was very likely just due to work stress so it was just working way too much and I just have a tendency to end up hallucinating, hearing things if I get really stressed out and irritable. That's been with me my entire life, by the way. Starting in high school, which was four or five years before I went vegan, in grade nine in high school, I started having hallucinations and shit. And yeah, for the last few years, I haven't really had any. So what are you talking about? The psychotic symptoms I had weren't necessarily. Did it be B12 deficiency? I just decided to take B12 vitamin shots, just to see. And by the way, there are people who lack intrinsic factor in their stomach where they can't absorb B12 no matter what they eat. So look, like these health problems can affect everyone, especially as you get older, you have a reduced ability to absorb B12. So most people should just take a B12 supplement anyway. Okay, I mean, I don't really see how that's an argument against what I'm saying, like, because again, if you wanna actually abide by the true tenet, well, it didn't, not the one you defined in your intro. Just provide evidence that you need meat in your diet. I was making a point, dude. Come on, dude. Yeah, just provide evidence that you need meat in your diet. Hey, dude, I was making a point there, dude. All right, anyway. Yeah, just provide evidence that you need meat in your diet since this is what everything's based on right now. The words you're using are so vague, need meat in your diet. Would you agree that caloric restriction is actually extremely healthy too? It extends lifespan. Yeah, not necessarily. Really, you don't think there's an abundance of data that caloric restriction reduces, not only extends lifespan, but reduces like dozens of diseases and disorders, especially as we age. No, not caloric restriction itself. So this is based on a lot of rodent studies. No, there's rocky studies too. There's rocky studies too. Yeah, great. Well, humans aren't really monkeys, but great. No, caloric restriction itself. There's no reason for me to think that in humans, that alone would extend life expectancy. Yeah, there's a lot of people who are overweight, who are eating bad foods, and if you eliminate those bad foods from your diet or lose weight, those effects from caloric restriction have health benefits, but that doesn't mean caloric restriction itself is what's extended life. Well, are you familiar with the circu... What does this even have to do? Like, do you just provide evidence that you need to meet to either... I can explain what this has to do, because obviously... Just provide evidence that you need to meet to reduce mortality or morbidity. Can you do that? Are you just gonna keep talking over me until I meet you? Yeah, until you actually provide evidence for your claims, like your argument... That's not a good debate style. So why don't you provide evidence that you need to eat meat to reduce mortality or morbidity? Okay, I'm gonna try to make my point now. The reason that it's relevant is because there actually are anti-aging and anti-inflammatory genes, the circu-ing genes, S-I-R-T-U-I-N, that turn on after periods of fasting and also are more active when there's just less calories. So it has nothing to fucking do with the debate topic, so do you have any evidence that we need? You just responded to me about it. Great, so do you have any evidence that you need meat to survive or to be healthy? Any evidence at all? That's a ridiculous standard. It doesn't make any sense. Okay, cool. So since you can't provide any evidence that we need meat to live longer or be healthy, what's your argument for why it's more really acceptable to slice an animal's throat open? Because people have different access to different kinds of foods and different understandings of how those... Okay, great. So you... Okay, great. I'm there living in a modern Western country who have access to all the plant foods you need. Why is it okay for you to slice an animal's throat open? I've never seen data that suggests I can get sufficient nutrients without some level of monthly animal product intake. Okay, so like you... I just already said this, position of the position statement from the Academy of Nutrition Dietetics. I don't trust that. Okay, great. Well, whether you trust it or not doesn't really fucking matter. They have a lot of references there where you can... Whether you trust my caloric restriction thing or not doesn't really fucking matter. That's completely irrelevant to the... No, it isn't. You could be healthier if you eat less calories and reduce your animal harm intake. Yeah, so how about you provide evidence that you need to eat meat to survive since it's well established that you can get every single nutrient that is required on a vegan diet? So... Why are you making a demand of me that wasn't my argument? Can you eat more nutrient that you can't get on a plant-based diet? That's not even... That's a stupid one-line zinger question. There's nothing to my argument at all. Okay, can you provide... Can you give me one nutrient that you cannot get on a plant-based diet? Can you give me one more nutrient-dense food than animal liver? Nutrient density has nothing to do with this. Okay, well, then I could say, well, the fact that there's no nutrient... Nutrient density is not the same as lacking nutrition. So can you please explain, like you said, you can't get adequate nutrition on a vegan diet. So name one nutrient that you cannot get on a vegan diet. Well, no, I didn't say that exactly. I said that, essentially what I'm trying to say here is you could make the argument that if you just put someone in a hospital bed and hooked them up to IVs and all types of different things that they could survive. At that point, would that be a good quality of life? No, so there's a lot of compromises and sacrifices that people make in their daily lives regarding what food is accessible and realistic for them to regularly purchase, prepare and eat. So just saying, like, you don't need meat to survive is like, okay, you could keep someone alive in a hospital bed, like in a coma for an indigene amount of time. No, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about you. I'm demonstrating that your question is ridiculous. Your question is ridiculous. Yeah, can you give me one nutrient you can't get on a plant-based diet since you claimed that you can't get adequate nutrition? Okay, let's rewind 20 years. How did people get, what's it called? Colchalciferol, I think it's called? Colchalciferol. Yeah, how people get that vitamin D. Yeah, but the actual form that's now in algae, right? How did people, maybe I'm thinking of the omega-3s actually. Yeah, I'm thinking of the omega-3s. Okay, recently they created the algae supplement that does have the complete, like, what's considered like a healthy ratio and it's now in algae, but that wasn't around even like 15, 20 years ago. So is your entire argument for- Yeah, your own body converts ALA into EPA and DHA. You don't need to take a supplement. So can you name one nutrient that you can't get on a plant-based diet? But what about your video with Miley Cyrus, remember when you were like, oh, we have these supplements, they're algae-based now. That's the very recent development. What would Miley Cyrus do hypothetically 30 years ago? She wouldn't take anything because she doesn't fucking need it and there's no evidence that algae-based DHA supplements do you fucking anything, so- You made a whole video on this. You made a whole video on this. Yeah, Miley Cyrus said she needed to take fish oils to get enough DHA and I said- But wait, I'm addressing the point that you said- If you really needed to get DHA, DHA, you could just take an algae-based DHA supplement. But that doesn't have to do with whether or not you have to take an algae-based DHA supplement. You couldn't have done that 20 years ago. And you were already admitting that you, okay, well, this isn't 20 years ago, dude, so I don't know what the hell that has anything to do with this. Well, the reason it's relevant is because any future developments from now until the end of time that any vegan says, now you can get this here, it invalidates prior arguments for veganism because that's the thing. It's like this ever-receding pocket of nutritional adequacy. It's like, well, now we have this and then 50 years from now it'll be, now we have this. And then all the people that feel like they suffered from a vegan diet, which by the way, there's no shortage of these people on YouTube, all the people that are saying like, veganism destroyed my body. Now I'm not saying that's credible, but there's definitely people saying it. And so if, if we're always referencing- Yeah, cool, dude. Heart disease is the leading cause of fucking death. Obesity is just through the fucking roof. There's how many people with diabetes. So yeah, cool. Are all these people vegan? Looks like a lot of people are having horrible health issues on just a normal standard diet, right? So- Well, that's true for sure. I don't know why you finding random anecdotes on YouTube has anything to do with this discussion. So I asked you to name one nutrient that you can't get on a plant-based diet. I asked you to find a more nutrient-dense food than liver. Okay. It's a stupid question. It's a- It's a stupid question. It's a relevant discussion. I answered your stupid question with another stupid question. Okay, so you agree that you can get all the nutrition you need on a plant-based diet? We've already established that. So what's your argument for why it's more really acceptable for you to slice a cow's throat open? Because getting all the nutrients you need is not necessarily sufficient in having a life of flourishing and wellbeing. Okay, so let's say I wanted to kill you or another human being. So let's say, yeah, rather than killing a cow, I'll just kill a human being. So why is it morally wrong to kill a human being and eat them? What would be your- Name the trait. So name the trait. Okay, so I'll name the trait. Name the trait. Moral agency. Moral agency. Okay, well, there are human beings that lack moral agency. So children, mentally disabled people, you could argue that some people who suffer from neuropsychiatric disorders like schizophrenia, severe PTSD, mania, delusions, they lack moral agency because they can do things that are really outside their own control. So it's okay for me to murder those people and turn them into hamburgers. Again, when you say it's okay, I have a problem in the language here. I'm not trying to be nitpick, but if we're not defining it, if you don't think objective morality exists and when you say it's okay, why would it matter if I say, I don't think it's okay? Because the person doing it thinks it's okay, but I don't- I don't think morality is objective. So yeah, I'm arguing with you and you're- Oh yeah, right. So I would think it's not okay because it's unnecessary. Does the person feel that way? What the fuck? That's very easy to understand. What grade are you in? Dude, like, okay. Did you drop out of grade eight or something? Didn't you drop out of high school? I actually- No, I didn't. I completed. Really? Okay. Then I must have got bad information on that. Well, okay. Well, no, I didn't drop out of grade eight, but I don't get it. Are there people in the world right now that are not familiar with all the scientific data on vegan diets? And are they just monsters that are equivalent to child rapists because they're slitting cow's throes open in your opinion? We've already gone over this- How do you view those people? Well, answer the question. How do you view those people? How do you view those people, dude? Tell me, are they child rapists in your opinion or what? Yeah, no. We already covered this. I recognize that some people lack moral agency when it comes to this thing and I'm not gonna judge- When it comes to this thing, when it comes to this thing. So you're saying that these people aren't monsters, they're not the equivalent of child rapists because they're slitting cow's throes open to eat, but then you're invoking the child rapists and trying to say like, these people are equally unaware of what they're doing, but one is bad and what's not. You're appealing to emotion. You're appealing to emotion. I'm tracking this conversation. No, I'm not. No, you're appealing to the fact that most people have an emotionally strong reaction to child rape. No, I'm using your own logical reason. Well, you're not. You're slouched halfway down your chair. You're claiming it. No, no, nothing I'm claiming is absurd. You're trying to talk over me at this point. You are using an emotionally provocative example like child rape or murder. And then even though you're saying the person is not aware it's immoral the same way as the person is. That is the fucking truth. Okay, so. It's very clear what I'm saying. It's not more to track. Hacking in an animal, but if lacking in a human being would justify it. You can't just dismiss my whole argument and introduce a new question. Name the trait. Name the trait. No, I don't fuck your fuck me. You're not saying anything. Name the trait. I'm not, no, I'm not. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. All right. Like, why don't we do this? We can go into the Q and A. We do have a number of questions to jump into and want to say thanks everybody for your questions. Unless you guys have any points different from what you've maybe already covered that you might want to bring up that you didn't have a chance to put in yet. No, I don't. No. Yeah, cool. So he won't answer anything and he's just being deliberately vague. So I asked him why he believes it's morally acceptable to murder an animal. He essentially said it's not. Then he used the excuse of lacking moral agency as a justification for why it's morally acceptable to murder an animal. But if we are going to say, lack of moral agency makes it okay to murder an animal, we'd have to apply that same standard with human beings. So apparently people who are psychopaths, sociopaths have mental disorders. They're delusional. If they murder somebody that's morally acceptable apparently then when I went over the issue with that then I don't even know what he did. He just tried to change the topic onto whether or not you can get enough nutrition on a vegan diet then when he wasn't able to provide any evidence that you can't get adequate nutrition on a vegan diet then he tried to use this very vague term where your quality of life goes down or something if you follow a vegan diet. So then I asked him to name the trait again. Name the trait that is lacking in an animal that if lacking in a human being would justify killing and eating a human being for the purpose of improving life quality for meat eating. And he still hasn't been able to answer that and he refuses to answer any of my questions. Can I just do one quick follow-up to that? Sure, go ahead, waste your time. Okay, yeah, so the one quick follow-up is just the plea for insanity argument, right? It's categorically different that when people do things that they're unaware are bad or immoral and then there's people that are, there's murderers that get lesser sentences because we deem that they didn't realize that they were doing this wrong. I don't know how you can appeal to objective morality. Like, so yeah, what I'm saying is there are people that eat meat without realizing it might be in your opinion gratuitous or needless. It's not a hard argument to track. I don't know why you keep saying it's like crazy or ridiculous. Yeah, no, shit, we already went over this. We already went over the difference between moral agency and whether or not something's morally acceptable. So you're just arguing in a retarded circle because you're too stupid to follow the argument. Okay, I'm done, I have nothing else to add. Thank you very much. We will jump into the Q and A. I wanna say thanks everybody for your questions and this has been a juicy one, no doubt. We will, let's see, jump in with Vin Thomas who said, let's hope sunflower is better, but even still, vegan gains will crush it. Well, that's been a juicy one. And Blue Heron, thank you for your super chat. And for the channel, also please support M4A. Someone taught me what this was the other day, I can't remember. Okay, we'll get back to that. But thank you very much for your super chat from SmokeySaint said, after show on my channel, right after the debate, thanks James, great switch hitter with sunflower, glad it still happened tonight. I'm glad it happened tonight and I wanna let you know folks, I told Vin Gaines at the start before we went live and he knows that I'm sure he's been in the debate world a long time. It is pretty easy. It's not too hard. You might be surprised. You'd think that maybe there would be a lot more people willing to take the position against veganism and that they would be the easy people to find to come on and debate. That's not the case. It's actually fairly easy to find a vegan wanting to debate, but finding someone wanting to oppose it is tough. So if you oppose veganism, if you don't think it's morally obligatory to be a vegan, then let us know if you'd like to come on and debate. Shoot me an email at moderndaydebate at gmail.com. Next, Andrew Handelsman, thanks for your question, said Richard, I saw you in Toronto eating at the Meat Cafe. Is that an inside joke? What's that? Yeah, just people like why claiming they've seen me in public eating meat or something. Gotcha. And Andrew Handelsman, thanks for your question, said, oh, we got that one. Monkey, thank you for your super chat, said, when are you Dr. James? Let's see, it's probably like two years. I've got a while yet, but I like the adventure. Smokey St. came in with another one. He said, for vegan gains, said, is it morally wrong to make a dog suffer by forcing it on a vegan diet like you did? How do you justify abusing some animals to save others? Okay, so yeah, dogs don't suffer just because they're on a plant-based diet. Two of the biggest pet food companies, Purina and what's the other one, Royal Cannon, they make a vegan dog food formulas and it's not for any kind of ethical reasons. There's just dogs that are hypoallergenic. They get allergic reactions from those dog foods. So there's hypoallergenic dog foods that are vegan. We feed our dog a vegan diet. He's totally fine, perfectly healthy, doesn't suffer. So I don't know why you'd assume that. And even if a vegan diet for dogs or cats or something, if it wasn't as healthy for them as like a normal diet, I'd still say it's morally justified to feed them a plant-based diet just because you're contributing to less overall animal suffering. So just do the math, it makes more sense. But luckily, yeah, I mean, you can feed a dog or cat a vegan diet and they don't suffer, they're just fine. Gotcha. And thank you for... Guraminia, your question, this one's for gambling saint who actually transformed into sunflower. Although right now, gambling saint, I saw just trying to jump into the Zoom chat. He disappeared now, but he came back, he wanted some more. But Guraminia says sunflower, if you owned a cow and its calf, according to your logic, would it be morally okay to kill them, to eat them if you had other options that don't require slaughtering sentient life? Okay, I'm trying to understand, like, I don't, so again, I would agree with reducing animal harm suffering, but I don't know what he means by if I owned a cow and a calf? Like, how is that different from any general argument for just eating meat? I'm not sure what he exactly means by like, if I owned a cow and a calf? Yeah, I mean... Yeah, he's asking a very simple question. Would you slice its throat open and turn it into meat, even if you had other plant-based options? If I had no other access to any animal products at all, and I began to feel as though my health was suffering from the lack of animal products, I would consider it. I don't know if I would actually do it or not, but I would definitely consider it. Next, monkey, thank you for your super chat. I said, James, would you go vegan if there were meat replacements that tasted cost and were nutritionally better? Also, I'm a big soy boy, and I love modern day debate. Thank you for your kind words. I actually, you could say I'm like trending toward veganism in terms of my beliefs in the years and my, I don't know if you could say behaviors in terms of depending on levels of sentience. I don't know if, is it fair to say that fish are, do they feel less pain? I'm asking Richard, is that something that's... I don't know if they feel less pain, but there's research on whether or not fish feel pain. They do have a brain, they have a nervous system, they have no susceptors that are required to experience pain, and they do respond to noxious stimuli. So if you like inject them with an acid around their face, they'll act like they're in pain, they'll twitch around, they'll try to rub the area where the vinegar is being injected into their face. So they do feel pain. I don't know if they feel pain more or less than other animals, but they do feel pain. Gotcha. Thanks so much. And this one coming in from William Clapper. Thanks for your super chat. I saw it, but I didn't see a question attached. So if you wanna ask it as a normal question, just shoot it into a live chat and tag me with that modern day debate and I'll read it as a super chat. Gurmania, I think I read, let's see. Oh, we got that one. And so there's one or two others that I had missed. Give me one moment. I know that this one had come in earlier as well. TSZYMK77 said, can you ask Vegan if he thinks it's immoral to kill oysters? Yeah, so I'd say it is. They don't have a brain or nervous system, but they have nerve ganglia, which is basically like the first evolutionary step towards a brain and nervous system. Of any animal, they're probably the least likely to be sentient, but because they do exhibit behavior where it seems as though they can have a subjective experience. So they seem to feel around their environment. They try to escape predators. I'd say I'd rather just be safe and not kill and eat them just in case they are sentient to some extent. Gotcha. Mark Reed, thanks for your question, said, Vegan gains, why is it morally acceptable to kill plants? Why should you get to decide criteria for evaluating life? Well, because plants aren't sentient. So the only type of life that we should care about is sentient life, because that's a type of life that can have a subjective experience, that can feel pain or suffering, that has a will to live. So if something doesn't have any of that, why should it deserve moral consideration? It's like basically arguing that rocks should have moral consideration, even though they can't think, feel, they don't have any experience, they don't have any hopes and dreams they don't have a wish to live. You got it, and thanks for your question, this one coming in from Minagogo, Minagoo. Okay, they said, if technology existed that allowed people to consume fully synthetic nutrients, would you argue that killing plants for food is wrong? No, for one thing, how the hell would you get those synthetic nutrients anyway? They're gonna have to come from plants, like vitamin A, I know, synthesized from I9, which they get from some sort of plant, I can't remember which plant it was, but okay, so that doesn't make any sense, but even hypothetically speaking, I don't know if you found some sort of mineral that contained all the nutrients we need. No, it wouldn't be morally wrong to get their nutrients from plants. Gotcha, and question from Tuss Beatbox, thanks so much, says question for sunflower. When you have to go back in time or far overseas to find examples that back you up, is that because you don't have any argument applicable to yourself, or should you be vegan? Well, no, when I do that, it's because I believe that moving forward similar things will happen, and how tenable the current arguments are, will like the ones of the past are just the same as the ones of the present, but for the future, right? So 50 years from now, people are saying, well, don't talk about 2021, like we have this now, and people are saying like, well, I was vegan in 2021, and I like, what about me then? It's like, well, we don't care about that. It's like, let's talk about now, now, now. It's like, well, there's latent suffering, potential, potential, keyword, potential latent suffering and harm that could have been done. I think that's fine to bring up, and I think it's fine to say if in the past, there was a strong vegan movement without, with a seeming gap, then I don't know. I don't know how I can perfectly trust something and ever feel like it's truly been a closed book in terms of no further developments are necessary. So that's why I bring that up. Gotcha. And this one coming in from, I'm a little confused by this, if it has like a context that's referring to, Dabur said, provide evidence that eating plants is required. I think this is for you, Vegan Gains, but I'm not sure if it's... So I think he is trying to argue that we don't need to eat plants to survive, okay? Human beings are like rats, we can live off of almost anything. So yeah, you could theoretically eat nothing, but meat and survive off of that. It's definitely not gonna be ideal for your health. It's not gonna be ethical when you have plant options, but you can do it. Gotcha. Thank you very much. Sigefrados Arabias has Vegan Gains to your beliefs overrule others. Thanksgiving, I'm confused of what, I'm sorry. Okay, I think he's trying to ask if I like, eat meat for Thanksgiving or something, no. I don't really celebrate any holidays, I don't celebrate Thanksgiving. I think that's the dumbest holiday. It's basically just celebrating a massacre. Don't celebrate Christmas or anything. Gotcha. And thank you very much for your question. This one coming in from, correct me if I'm wrong, says, for Vegan Gains, what is your goal for doing this? Because if it's to convince people to be vegan, do you think you achieved it here? Well, I think I at least succeeded in making this guy look like a complete fucking moron. I don't know if this would convince anyone to be vegan, but I don't know. Maybe for those of you unfamiliar with me, check out my channel and watch more of my content. Gotcha. Is, I can't remember. You've probably crossed swords with Destiny before, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually debated him like last night on a stream. Oh, okay, that's cool. That's awesome. Somebody just mentioned, get Destiny in here. I was like, I know you guys must have already, was that, that wasn't the first time though, was it? No, no. Debated him like two, three years ago. Okay, I thought I had seen it before. Next up, thanks for your question from William Clapper. Oh, right there you go. William, they said, my question would be, can we get all our nutrients from an entirely plant-based diet with supplementing? Wait, sorry, what was the question? They said, if we, basically, I think they're saying, can we get all our nutrients we need to be like at optimal health or like pretty darn good health on an entirely plant-based diet and supplements? Well, yeah. But according to the Oxford Vegetarian Cohort, which is the most recent cohort comparing vegans, vegetarians, meat eaters, vegans and vegetarians were the only diet group that had a statistically significant reduced risk of Alka's mortality. So they basically lived the longest. They're also quite healthy, lower risk of numerous chronic diseases. So, yeah. Gotcha. And just going to check in, see if there are any final questions. You wanna remind you folks, our guests are linked in the description and we are excited for some big stuff coming up. Wanna let you know, you guys are gonna think I'm nuts, but I'm telling you, I think it's gonna be epic. For the first time, we are going to have a debate on whether or not Bigfoot exists. That will be coming up on, I think it's the 23rd. And it is Dr. Jeffrey Meldrum, who will be, he's from Idaho State University. He will be defending the thesis that, yes, Bigfoot does exist. And so it is going to be a blast. I'm excited for that one, I had to let you know. But we'll be back in just a moment with a post-credits scene where I'll let you guys know about some other epic debates coming up in the future. Wanna say though, one last time, before we do that, thanks so much to our guests. It's been a true pleasure to have you, Vegan Gains and Sunflower. And they are, as I had mentioned, linked in the description. Sunflower's not yet, I'll have to get that. But thank you gentlemen. With that, thanks everybody. And like I said, we'll be right back in just a moment. Ladies and gentlemen, I am stoked. That was a blast. I really, I'm so glad we didn't have to nix this debate all together. I thought we were going to have to. I'm very glad that we still got to have a good old veganism debate. And Cosmic Skeptic, as mentioned, will be back this month to debate veganism. You guessed it. And so that should be a really fun one. And yes, as I mentioned you guys, I'm not making this up. We're going to have a debate on Bigfoot. And I seriously, I think this is going to be like, I think it's going to be awesome. Dr. Jeffrey Meldrum, you guys, I don't know. You know, I know that there's always going to be critics or whatever else. Haters going to hate, but I got to tell you, I think Dr., I found him in a documentary. I watched a documentary on Bigfoot. And I thought, I was like, this guy is really articulate and he's really persuasive. And I'm agnostic on the Bigfoot thing. I'm like, I don't know. But so I wouldn't say I'm a believer, but I'd say I'm probably more open than a lot of people. And I said, hey, we've got to get this guy on. So I emailed him. Well, first I looked up his name and I was like, oh, he's at Idaho State University. He's got his doctorate and he, you know, legit scholar. And he, I emailed him and I'm so excited. He'll be going against a newcomer, another newcomer, Maddie. As she is working on her PhD, we're really excited to have her on. She is a science enthusiast. And so that is going to be a blast, you guys. I'm serious. It's honestly gonna, it's the 23rd, which is, let me look at the calendar right now. It's not this weekend. It's the following Saturday. And I'm glad it's not further because it's like, ah, don't make me wait because I'm serious. That one, I'm just seriously, I'm excited for it. So yes, it is going to be something new. That's for sure. And Tuss Beatbox says, this debate was everything I wanted. So glad to hear that, Tuss. That is encouraging. I'm so glad you liked it. And yeah, I am, I'm encouraged. Lewis, let me know, Lewis, if I'm pronouncing it right. Forgive me if I'm not. I think it's Lewis, but I'm always getting names bad, getting names wrong. Lewis said, looking forward to being here for cosmic skeptics debate. Me too. I'm pumped. We haven't had cosmic on for almost a year. So it's been since March that we've had cosmic skeptic on. And so I think it's going to be an absolute blast. So let's see, Ricky Jaco. I don't know if I've seen you here before, but we're pumped to have you here. I always like kind of getting to say hello to people. And what about B12? Appreciate you stopping by friend. CM says, we need a link to Sunflower. You are right. I do need to get that. Sunflower, could you send me a link via email? I'll throw it into the description box. And you guys, I'm just looking at other stuff that we have coming up. William Clapper, better late than never. We're glad you're here, buddy. Thanks for coming by. And Torrin Hotsaw said, would love to see a debate on the topic that starts with the letter Q. And they said, I could see that getting ugly real fast. Yeah, I am open to debating. I mean, I think we're open to debating that. I don't know, that's the one word you can't say. So that's the word that like, if I warn speakers before we go live, I say, that's the word you can't say. Otherwise we're, for some, I mean, don't get me wrong. I understand why there's that seriousness around the word. At the same time, there's other topics we've hosted that I would think are even more controversial. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. But thank you for your kind words. What about B12 said, love your channel, modern day debate. Thanks so much, friend. We do appreciate it. And it's the people that make it awesome, people like you guys, people like you. What about B12, like, Romer and Zoom Solomon says, but yeah, we do appreciate you guys. Seriously, the more the merrier. It's always fun here. And I always, no matter what mood I'm in before I go live, I, the debaters must think I'm such a kook because before we go live, I'm like, you guys, I am so pumped. I'm like, so excited. This gets me in a great mood. And so yeah, they must just be these guys kind of weird. But I just really enjoy it. Zoom Solomon says, will cosmic skeptic be debating veganism or something else? It'll be veganism and it will be against, I can't remember, I've got to look it up, but it's gonna be juicy. It's going to be epic. I think it's the 16th. And we have a number of other epic debates want to tell you about these. But I also want to know, you guys, how are you doing? How's your life going? We really, we appreciate you guys being here. Let me know if there's something I can do to make your day easier. Cause we do appreciate you guys. Seriously, you make my life a blast. I love doing this. And so thanks for just hanging out here. You have no idea that by itself makes it more fun here. It's like a party every time. Gotta, it's always a blast. And so let me just check this out really quick. I'm checking into, is it Star Wars? Oh, that's right. No, no, no. We have a picture we have for our epic intro video today. I hope you guys appreciated that. I love movies, so that's, I couldn't resist it. But yes, this Wednesday, as you know, whether or not DNA has code within it between John Perry and T-Jump, that should be a big one. Then this Friday, Tyler Bluntman, who is a pretty darn popular TikTok influencer. I think he's got like over half a million followers on TikTok, he is going to be debating on a controversial topic, and it should be a lot of fun. Stripper liquor says I'm eating lots of bacon right now. Oh, you sassy critics of veganism. I told you guys, it's hard to find, it's hard to find people who will take on vegans. I'm just gonna tell you. I can tell you, after sending out a billion emails, I know what topics people are reluctant to debate or excited to debate, so. Saffron, thank you for your kind words. You deserve way more subscribers. I appreciate that, Saffron, we totally do. That's encouraging, so thank you. And yeah, it's funny, I've always wondered because we have pretty good amount of views in terms of the channel, in terms of our influence and what people are clicking. And I always wonder, I wonder why it isn't that we have more subscribers. Because I'm like, well, a lot of times it's people, they're like, oh, I'll come on if my favorite person's on, like Destiny or something or Bosch. And they come on and they're like, yeah, that's awesome. And they're, you know, they like watching it, but they're not into the channel per se, or maybe not super into debates per se. Maybe that's it, I don't know. Because it's true, we have a pretty big impact. I mean, there are channels that are no joke, almost double our size in subscribers. And we get about the same amount of views. Like we have like a pretty, that's a cool thing. Like I'm thankful for that, that people are enjoying the content. And at the same time, like I said, I don't know what it is. But do, hey, if you love debates, folks, and if you wanna for sure not miss the cosmic skeptic debate on veganism, hit that subscribe button and hit that little notification bell so that it shows the ringing sign. That way you won't miss that debate or others. And that, you know, you can kind of choose what you'll pick. Cause it's true, it's kind of like a buffet here. We've got all sorts of topics. We've got Bigfoot coming up. I'm like, I'm just like obsessed with that. And that way, you know, you can just pick and choose. Like, yeah, yeah, that one's good. Ah, that one, like meh. CM said, you're so happy and wholesome dude, I love you. Thank you, CM, I appreciate that. Seriously, it means a lot. I am, it really just gets me in a great mood to be here, seriously. I totally enjoy it. And so, Blue Heron said, James, if we could ever get David Pac-Man on, that would be phenomenal. I'm totally serious when I say I'd love to have David on. I like, David seems like a pleasant person to me. Like, you know, he seems like he's self-controlled and, you know, calm under pressure. I've seen him in his debates. It's funny that that's the one person, like that I know of, that Jesse Lee Peterson will never have back on. I don't know why, but juicy. And then, let's see. Zoom Solomon said, I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but what dietary philosophy do you follow, James? I am, let's see. Well, okay, I'll give you the, like, so I'm like, I guess the word would be omnivore. I've moved philosophically toward veganism, to be sure. In terms of, I mean, vegans are, like the vegan arguments are tough. I think they're tough arguments. And I, frankly, I wouldn't be able to, I don't think I'd, I can't think of a compelling argument off the top of my head that I could bring into a veganism debate. So I am moving in that direction. Though I still eat like a diet that is, like I said, you'd call it omnivore, but I also have just started intermittent fasting, by the way, as a side note, and I love it. Honestly, it's so, I just, I'm really excited about it because I've read about all of these benefits from the National Institute for Health and certain things like, for example, like Alzheimer's and that's common, not common, but it is present in my, it has been present in my family. And that's something that I, there is some research that it may reduce your chances of Alzheimer's and things like that. So I, but yeah, I don't know. I'm pretty like easy going about, you know, like I'm not a super clean eater either. I'll have some junk food once in a while, but next. But yeah, blue here and we're gonna ask David, I would love to have a in-person debate with David. That would be awesome. And chaos theory says, T junk, taking a shot at T jump, but he's not even here. But yeah, Tommy, if you're watching, we love ya, yeah. But we are excited and thank you for your, Colin Lorenz says, did you ask Brenton? Did I ask him what to debate on veganism? He's a vegan. That's, I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm happy to have vegans on. And I want to give vegans, like, I mean, like I want that topic to be here. I think it's important. And I really do. I mean, and it might be hard. Some people, long story short, vegans, it's common to be able to get vegans. We don't have any shortage of vegans wanting to debate. They're ready. It's that finding people that are willing to take them on is not that easy. James W says, James equals soy boy vegan. Thank you. I certainly am a soy boy. I, it's funny how, like, enough about soy. Soy life says, Cipriano Mezola. Thank you, Cipriano. I couldn't agree more. And Jay Mixon says, great show. I thought it was a mismatch, but I enjoyed it. Nonetheless, do you take suggestions for debate topics? I do, Jay. I'm open. I can't guarantee you will host it. There are some topics that sometimes people run by me and I'm like, ah, after doing it. So this is like, we've done about 500. And so after like looking at the stats of 500 debates, because I check the stats like all the time, I'm pretty, I think I'm pretty good at guessing what it'll get, what the audience will enjoy, what it'll get engaged with, versus the debates that like, I would say, let me think about this, 10%, 0.10, or 10, times, we're at 39,000. So normal, like the standard rate is that, usually, even with YouTube, well, not all, some YouTube channels, the viewers are, like they are just, they love the content and they watch like every video and you know, but the standard, the average, is only 10% of subscribers will actually watch your content. And so for us, like we do, I don't know if we still have political debates that like don't get to reach, like let's say 3900. But even if they did, a lot of those viewers are people who are not subscribers. And like, so anyway, I'm open to suggestions. But I also, I'm pretty confident and forgive me. I'm pretty confident and I hate saying no to people, but sometimes people are like, hey, you should have this as a debate. And I'm like, eh, I'd like to, but I think the audience just wouldn't go for it and we wanna do, we only, we have a finite amount of time. We wanna put on debates that we think that the audience will really enjoy and tune in for. And then, but I open to suggestions. Zoom's all I'm gonna thank you. So thanks for the answer. Good luck with your intermittent fasting. Thank you, Zoom, appreciate that. And yeah, I mean, it's cutting my groceries in half in terms of what I have to buy. It's funny, but yeah. M. Bond says, Dr. Avi needs to debate on here. I agree, we've tried to get him. We used to try to, we were setting, trying to set up a debate between him and Kent Hoven, but it never worked out. But I do agree, it'd be fun to have him. Luis Guido said, vegan debates are spicy. I appreciate that. I agree, I like him. Dan Kono said, how much do we pay you to get Vosh versus Ask Yourself? That would be epic, man. We should do that. I don't know if, oh, unlike veganism? I don't know. I don't know if Vosh would do it. Does he do debates on veganism? I honestly don't know. But I think it would be cool. We haven't had Vosh. Why is there a nice time we had Vosh on? Seems like a long time. King101 says, getting David Pakman on would be one heck of a debate. He's amazing! I agree, and oh, fear, oh, fear, oh, fire? No, you're not blocked. We can see you. I can block you if you want me to, I don't know. But, I was just kidding. But yes. I agree, we wanna get David Pakman on. We wanna, like, what are great debate topics that David might go for that you think David would enjoy that I could reach out to him with? Because that's a huge part, is if you have a good topic and a good opponent, it's kind of like, odds are pretty good, you'll get a yes. But David was kind of like, oh yeah, maybe someday. It's just busy right now. And that was right before the election. So it makes sense he was busy, political guy. So maybe someday. I am very serious when I say that I want to have him on, that'd be fun. Tows Speedbox has debate idea, big foot denier versus actual big foot. That is a good idea. And it's interesting regarding, by the way, actual big foots. I've been looking at so many pictures online of big feet, big foot creatures. And it's been super interesting. It's been super interesting. But yeah, I've also watched a couple of those documentaries that I mentioned. Ophir says certain words are not allowed. You're right about that Ophir. I've got some words that are banned. Not a lot. But Minugogo says Richard D. Wolfe on communism. That's right. That's a good idea. Minugugu, because David's a capitalist, right? I should know this, but is it fair to say David is like a left-leaning centrist? He strikes me as like kind of almost like destiny in terms of his views, but I don't know his views very well. So if I'm wrong about that, I am sorry. That's just my initial take. And Gabriel K says, oh no, foot, jokes, insert here. Nasty guy. Lewis says, veganism has only one tenant. Stop inflicting needless violence upon innocent, sentient individuals. We've got a lot of vegans in the crowd tonight, and I can tell you folks, we would love to have more vegan debates. I do think it's important. And I am excited that we'll at least for sure have cosmic skeptic on later this month. Lord willing, that's the plan. And so I am excited about that. But yeah, I am pumped. And so, yeah, like I said, maybe if you want a reminder, hit the old subscribe button because you don't want to miss that one live. I always think that, so I teach general psychology. And I tell people, because I'm one of the only instructors that teaches live in person right now. Most of the other PhD students they prefer to teach, I think they prefer to teach online. And I always say, I just prefer in person. I feel like whether it's music or sports, everything in life is better in person. It's more engaging. Same thing for lectures. Like I like teaching in person, and if I have to take a lecture or watch a lecture, I prefer that. Raya Rez says, destiny and Pac-Man agree on a lot. That's super interesting. And then, oh, Colin Lorenz says, David is a social democrat. I see. Okay. So they're both clearly left leaning, but it would be more that Richard Wolfe would be even more so. I am totally open to that. I was thinking today would be epic to have Dr. Richard Wolfe against Jordan Peterson, but I found out, while reading that, Jordan Peterson wanted $50,000. And hey, if everybody who was subscribed to us put in like $2, we could more than cover that. But so it is possible, but I don't know if we could do it. It's Deepak says, yeah, social democrat. Darcy Cockerill says, you guys should have Alex Malpass and William Lane Craig debate. That would be epic. I could have sworn that they might have crossed swords on capturing Christianity already. Did they not? I could be wrong. Alex Malpass, William, they had to have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That sounds like a fun debate. I haven't gotten to listen to it, but I'd like to. A lot of great debates on capturing Christianity. He's got a lot, I mean, Alex is a really pleasant atheist fellow and Craig is a really pleasant Christian fellow. And so I bet that was a really quality discussion. And, but yeah, so I'm open to it. I don't know, maybe. I think Craig might be, he's pretty selective. I gotta maybe find out, you know. But we're, yeah, we're looking for like taking some big chances, doing some more different stuff. Ophira says, sent in an email, check it out, weird. CM says, what's your most controversial opinion? Hmm, probably the gospel for real. It would trigger a lot of people if I, like the gospel does trigger a lot of people. And, but I believe the gospel. That's my, I wouldn't say it's an opinion as a belief, but that has to be. And by gospel, I mean that Jesus died for our sins and that we need to receive Christ in order to be saved. And that probably a lot of people just unsubscribe. That's okay, I'm telling the truth. So we do, I would say if you want political, I'm trying to think of what my most controversial political, I don't know, I'm pretty radical about, let's see. I do lean more toward liberty to the point where some would say that's too, I don't, I'm not big on the government jumping. I don't like the government being like all in everybody's face. That's not a huge thing. That's a, so I'm like, I don't know, I wouldn't say anti-government, but you could say I'm like for small government. And so let's see. Tuss says James's most controversial opinion is that he prefers the newest Britney Spears album over her earlier works. That might be, no kidding. I actually haven't really kept up with Britney Spears. For Epic Video says if you have a particular view on any political or religious ideology, you're guaranteed to anger somebody. That's a good idea, a good point for Epic Video is that, yeah, I mean, if I was an atheist, it would probably offend people. If I was, you name it. And so Ophir says, I'm a non-believer and I love religious people. Thanks for that. Ophir, appreciate that love. Saffron, thanks for your kind words, appreciate that. I sometimes wonder, and this might be the paranoid part of me. And I'm okay, I mean, I've got to be honest with what I am. If people ask, I'll say it. But at the same time, I do wonder sometimes if people don't subscribe because they don't like my views. Because some of them know my views. And I do wonder if they're like, ah, it's like cool debates. I'll come and watch them, but I'm not ever gonna subscribe. I could be wrong with that. That's probably my paranoia. It's probably, there are plenty of other reasons not to subscribe to us, such as our audio problems that we've had in the past, things like that. And then Boiled Pizza says, Shrek III was better than one. I'm trying to remember what number three was about. I've seen all of them. And Grimbling Saint, according to Monkey, said Grimbling Saint beat vegan gains. That's juicy. And William Clapper says, nothing wrong with being religious, I just personally can't find a reason to believe. Thanks for sharing that, William Clapper. You're welcome here, no matter whether you believe or not. So we really do hope you feel welcome. And that's the trick is that we really do, no matter what people's beliefs or lack of beliefs are, we really do want them to know that we're like, happy you're here. And so Chaos Theory says, government all in your Kool-Aid, trying to tell us how much sugar and water we need. There's some truth to that. And in my opinion, sorry, I'm supposed to be neutral. Okay, but yeah, let's see. Heroes at midnight said, I wish they would stop kicking the great debates off YouTube. Why can we not just talk to each other? Even in real life, they do not want it. Yeah, I mean, we'd like to have more controversial debates. We do have some planned. And so it depends on what we have. We can't saw off the branch that we're sitting on as a channel. If we get kicked off of YouTube, it makes things harder. And Den Kono said, Democratic Party, it's like a critic of the Democratic Party. We'll put it that way. Let's see. Hi, David P. Neff, how are you? David P. Neff, are you, I'm gonna send you, David P. Neff, are you available right now? Jay Mixon said, your views don't affect your character as an atheist. I enjoy your platform and integrity. Thank you for that, Jay Mixon. Seriously, I do appreciate that. It means a lot. Yeah, yeah, that's encouraging to hear. Appreciate that. And let's see. Boiled pizza says, you don't want ideologues subscribed to you. Yeah, I mean, I suppose that's a good point. When I went to grad school and I said, I don't know if I would get accepted into a doctorate. People knew about my views because in academia, my views aren't exactly popular among most. And that's like, so anyway, wise instructor, I should say mentor, that I had as a master's student, she told me if they were to be like that, and she was herself, I think an atheist maybe, I was pretty sure. And she had told me if they wouldn't want you there as a result of your beliefs, you probably wouldn't want to work with them anyway. So if they don't let you into the program because they find out what your beliefs are or whatever it is, then don't worry about it. You're better off without them. So that was a wise thing that I appreciate her telling me. And Tuss Beatbox said, we all want boiled pizza subscribed to us. So true. So many Mank deems as they say, it's your hunt. Trying to think of whether or not that was something dirty that I just said. We're thrilled to have you here, friend. I'm always glad to have you. And yeah, I'm excited for the future though. I'm trying to look at stuff that we have coming up just to share with you some sweet spoilers. As I'm pumped. R-F-E-F-C-E says, I think more debates about consciousness would be great. Oh, that is interesting. We haven't done that in a while. Let's see. KCA Randy said, do you plan on doing a Kickstarter debate monthly, modern day debate? No. We wanna do it quarterly though. So maybe mid-February. We'll try to come up and we're gonna do this based on your guys' feedback. We wanna know what debate would most people be excited to pitch in to make happen. That, we didn't do it, last time I could have done better. I could have and I should have and this next time we will and in the future we will. We are going to ask people, what debates do you guys think would be most enjoyable and most worth doing a Kickstarter campaign for? That is I think the most important thing that we do. So we will give you a chance to ask and let's see. Or I'm sorry, we'll give you a chance to weigh in on that. I've gotta put a survey out there so we can easily count it up. Stripper liquor says, modern day debate on all sorts of live streams daily. Sadly, the criticism I hear from people who won't come back is the live chat here. Oh wow, that's interesting, I didn't know that. Yeah, I mean there are some cranky people in the live chat. Stripper liquor, let me know how we can try to improve the live chat experience because I do wanna make it better. Don't get me wrong folks. I know you're all probably like super insulted. I'm not saying you. I'm saying that sometimes we have trolls and I'm curious Stripper liquor who it is that said that. Like is it a certain group? Cause the funny thing is I just feel like among Christians and RFF, EF, yeah, CE said, oh like Christian views. Yeah, I feel like that among, we're not, we're a nonpartisan channel, but like I as a Christian am here and like basically, you know, managing, but I feel and think that modern day debate that modern day debate is like the black sheep of among all the apologetics related channels such that I always think that like Christians are less likely to hang out here because they would be like, they would maybe feel like it's an atheist channel cause by far most of the comments are from atheists. So I don't know, but Misfit says where do the debate subject surveys usually get posted in Discord? It'll actually, we're gonna probably do it like in the live chats, maybe on Twitter, maybe on our YouTube community tab, that's something I'll actually have to think about. And so great question though. Sephiron says, who will be the 100th like? Thanks for your support, Sephiron, appreciate that. And then who was it I saw? Megan Satanus is here, said, hey everyone, I am way late as is typical half the time. Well, we're glad you're here better late than never. And Jay Mixon says, Mall Pass versus Bill Craig. That would be dank, I agree. It's even though it's already happened on capturing Christianity, like I don't know, maybe. Gabrielle Kay says, as long as you don't single out people for their views, everyone respect you no matter where you come from. Many YouTubers make this mistake. Appreciate it, Gabrielle Kay. We try to not take a stance in terms of moderating and all that good stuff. And then yeah, but yeah, I'm curious folks, let's see, stripper liquor says, I will email you, you can't please everyone. Some people demand a safe space. Oh, that's true. That's one thing that's been interesting is that I found we seem to turn off people at extremes. People who are, for example, hate to say it, I'm not trying to come down on anybody, but who would big, really, really big on social justice. Is that fair to describe someone like that? Some of the individuals that consider themselves within that camp, you could say, don't like modern day debate. I don't know, I honestly don't even get it. I honestly, I'm not joking. Sometimes we once or twice have had a person who's really big on social justice and then they leave after the debate, they blast us. And I'm like, oh, you didn't say anything while you were in stream, like what's wrong? And I think one of them, I wasn't even there. It was the mod, like there was a mod. Oh, it was because they, in the chat, they didn't like the chat. That's right. The person, the individual was so angry that I think some people in the chat were saying things that I, like I said, I wasn't there. I don't know. We always ask moderators to, and I think they do a good job. We ask moderators to wipe out any sort of hate speech. And I don't know what it was. That was said in the live chat, but I think that the people who are super focused on social justice issues, which don't get me wrong. I mean, we care about social justice issues. Like we've had, you know, like some of our charity events have been for that purpose. So for example, like donations for black colleges and historically black colleges and universities, HBCUs and scholarships for them. And so like we, like we do care about social justice. It's that some who, let's say, I don't know, what do you wanna say? They talk about it a lot more on Twitter than we do. Some of that crowd, they don't like moderate debate. And I honestly, I don't care. I don't, because I do think that, I think that moderators do a good job of eliminating hate speech, which is what we've asked. That's all we've ever asked, really. We do try to ask also that people would not harass people. So, you know, like it's not hate speech to say like, oh, man, so-and-so was so dumb. It's not hate speech, but it's just kind of like, ah, why, you know, why do you get to say that? Just attack the arguments, not the people. Hold on, I completely lost my train of thought. Oh yeah, so yeah, I think the moderators do a good job. And so it's kind of like when a lot of these people, it's kind of like, frankly, I feel like sometimes the extremists in the once in a while, in the creationist group, don't like us. I've clashed with Nephilim Free more than once. I've got no resentment or bitterness or unforgiveness toward either the people who talk a ton about social justice on Twitter, or the creationists. No hard feelings, but we do. People usually at the extremes don't like us. I don't know. I wonder how many, I know this is like, you guys are maybe, no, I'm not gonna say it. I don't wanna be, but Nagani says, Matt Delhonte versus Muhammad Hijab debate. That would be cool, I'm open to it. And for real, that would be cool. But yeah, I mean, we draw. So heroes at midnight said, debate potas being kicked off of Twitter in order to make Twitter a safe space. Yeah, actually, I'd be open to that. That'd be a fun topic. I agree. Andrew T. said, I personally don't care for many of the racial issue debates, but I'm definitely not against having those debates in conversations. It's just not interesting to me personally. That's fair. I totally, we're a buffet. I mean, you gotta take what you like and don't take what you don't like, because you don't wanna, you've only got so much room on your plate time-wise. So hey, I mean, enjoy the ones you like. And I don't, I totally understand if you don't watch everything. That's why I say like subscribe and then you can just pick what you wanna tune into, but at least you know what debates are happening. And I think that, yeah, we get, let's see. Gabriel K. said, how about Flat Earthers? We, I don't think we get too many battles with Flat Earthers, do we? Once in a while, Nathan and I get a little bit like, or I'm like, and that, yeah, I seem to be, the chat, basically I'm like, I feel like I guess I'm compared to most relatively speaking. I guess I'm more sympathetic toward Nathan, though once in a while, Nathan and I do behind the scenes more, sometimes we don't agree on things and then that ends up with, so we have a little bit of conflict sometimes. I'm trying to think of any other Flat Earthers. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, one of the people that totally, totally dissed us is Jeff Doherty and I've got no hard feelings. You know, we're never entitled to have anybody on, although what I don't like is if somebody says, yep, I'll be there to debate and then they don't show up because it's like, well, you can't take the slot and you didn't show up because it's like, well, somebody else could have. But Jeffrey Doherty did that twice in a row and I'm like, what, why, what did we do? I don't know what we did to tick him off but he, yeah, he got his jollies off of it. But let's see. Nagani said, how could we set up a debate as big as Mohammed Hijab versus Matt Delanti? Nagani, I'm not joking. I'm trying to do it this summer. Trying to do it in person in England. No joke, I'm dead serious. Ophir says the, some people are vindictive against the idea of debate. It's built into the ideology, be careful. I think there's some truth to the idea that, I don't know if I'd say it's, I don't know if I'm convinced it's built into the ideology to not have debate. But I would agree that there are probably, I mean, what are the odds that all groups are equally have the same positive or negative attitudes toward debate? Different groups are gonna differ even by random chance, right? Even just by a little bit. And then some of them, for some reasons, may differ more. Denkono said, can the chat donos from a vegan debate go to an animal sanctuary? That's an interesting idea. We have not done that before. Let me look it up. I have to learn what about an animal sanctuary, what it means. I'm embarrassed, I'm sorry, I'm embarrassed to say that because I feel like I should. I'm thinking it has to be something where you have land set aside that animals can't be hunted and they have to be left alone, right? Or is it, oh, okay, is it like a shelter? I'm open to that. I think one challenge that I wanna be careful of, and it's a tough one, because we've also gotten this criticism on other things where sometimes people say, well, depending on what you're going, if you get what you give to, it might seem if the debate topic is related to it, it might seem as if you're like taking a stance. Let me look at that. The biggest thing for us, let me look into it. Let me think about it. Let me think about, look into it in terms of charity navigators ratings, because that's a big thing for us is we always wanna give to highly rated organizations. Not saying that animal sanctuaries couldn't be. I have no doubt that they're A plus ratings. But yeah, so I appreciate that. That's, I appreciate that idea. And let's see. Tussbeatbox says soy squad, and then Stripper Liquor says the more soy they consume, so much soy. Says James the beta. Maybe a little bit. It's true. Let's see, Jesse Peters. Good to see you again. It's been a while, Jesse. It said you should get Cosmic Skeptic versus Hassan Piker on veganism. Hassan's chat is always trying to debate him on veganism. It's actually a running meme at this point. That would be cool. Let me, yeah, let me reach out to him. Let me just type this in for real. I'm dead serious. I think that'd be fun. We've got eight people still in the Twitch chat. So sorry I've been super far behind on the Twitch chat, you guys, it's like a new habit I'm trying to learn. So the response to my question was pretty weird. And then they said I got on late tonight and James don't get into the fish. And they said awkward pause, pre-triggered, relatable. Said I don't think this is an atheist channel. I see most of your debates and I am a Hindu. Oh, I never knew that. Well, welcome friend. I honestly always thought, I wonder what percent of our audience is atheist and what percent is theist of some kind? And then what percent is Christian? Be super interesting. Bruce Wicks says screw the haters. You'll never please the Twitter trolls. I'm super, and I'm super far left. Wow, well thanks for being honest. That's true. I mean a lot of, it seems like it's just like a fun game for some people on Twitter to just be outraged at something. They're just going on. It's like they have to find something. I don't know, but oh yeah. Jesse Peters, your idea. Sorry I got distracted. I'm gonna go in just a moment but I wanna say I appreciate you guys. This is always fun and I seriously, it's hard for me to go because I'm honestly just enjoying this a ton. One thing we'd also like feedback on, if you guys wanna email us with ideas and we'll try to put a survey out, San Piker versus the Cosmic Skeptic on veganism. And so one of the things that I'm happy to get emails on in addition, and we're happy to have feedback on anything for real guys, let me know, is we wanna know what are cooler rewards that we could do. Leslie Flemons, thanks for coming by, says I'm a Christian. So we do have some Christians here and I appreciate you being here and we all appreciate you being here. For real, I do think it's like, I know that we get wound up with the debates but I would say you guys, at the end of the day, it's like if you're, think of it this way, if somebody was in a car accident, I hope that you would go save them and help them out no matter what their view is. And so we really do hope you can see past the different views. And so Leslie Flemons, welcome. Thanks so much for saying hi. And Clinton Rosch said, I think a Kickstarter for James' beard would grow. Maybe. And let's see, Ophir says Hassan, okay. What a critic of Hassan. So Andrew T says, I would watch Hassan versus Cosmic Skeptic, that would be hilarious. That would be really cool. I'm super open to it. A debate on zoos. Oh, that's actually pretty interesting. I seriously, Dan Kono says a shelter for animals where they can live a long life without attempts to turn them into burgers or decorative skins. I see, okay. Thanks for giving me that info. And KGV exposes all Veritas 777, Axiom said, food banks and shelters need help. Thanks for stopping by, friend. And yeah, I mean, let's see, I don't know. I don't want to get into, so this is where it's a challenge where some people are gonna think that giving one direction or the other is in that context, they might think of it as something I've got to think through carefully and a lot. And then Chorin Hotshot said, you could donate it to Carol Baskin at Big Cat Rescue. That is true. I've reached out to her to try to get her to come on for a debate. No response. You want to know who I did get a response from? You won't believe it. I actually got a letter back from Tiger King. No joke, I'm dead serious because I asked him to come on. And it was like, yeah, it was like a hassle to like find out how to send him, so I had to send him a letter. I sent him a paper letter and no joke. I've got it around here somewhere. I think I've got it over here. There's a box in the corner of my office. I've got the letter in there. I was thinking about it just today. I think it was yesterday or today. I was thinking, I was like, I gotta dig that letter out and frame it. But basically he said, he's like, I'd love to do it, but I can't use Zoom where I am in prison. But it would definitely be epic to get Tiger King. I'll keep an eye out in case he's able to come on in the future. And Gabriel K says, do a survey, moderate debate. Yeah, I would love to hear what you guys would think. Were good rewards or what are some rewards we could add? One reward would maybe be potentially getting into, like to enter the Zoom chat to greet the debaters before they start. So in this last one, it would have been like you could come in 15 minutes early and meet and greet with like Dr. Michael Shermer and IP if you'd like to. That's something that we're like, maybe. And then William Clapper says, can't wait to watch the debate. Have a good rest of your day. Thank you, William. I appreciate that. You too. He means a lot. And yeah, it's true. The await question is right. We've been going for a while. The debate did end a while ago. James Nixon said, James, have you ever hosted G-Man on the show? We've had G-Man on a number of times. Oh man. He's the character. I love G-Man. I get along with him. I don't know. I've never had a problem. I think he's like, yeah, I can't remember ever having a conflict with a G-Man. Gutsick Gibbon is in the house. It says G-Man always wins. So it wouldn't be fair to host him. That's true. Jesse Lee Peterson versus Jordan B. Peterson in mud wrestling. Oh my, well. Taking this channel in a new direction. We'll have to announce that next time. And let's see, I don't wanna miss any. Jay says G-Man is entertaining to say the least. Tons of comic relief. He is entertaining. People love, yeah, everybody loves G-Man because he's high energy. He's enthusiastic, man. And so let's see. Brian Steven says, dude, have Tiger King debate zoos. That's what we wanted. We wanted, originally, the maybe unrealistic but cool idea was we wanted to have Tiger King debate whether or not animal things that he has, like the cat park or whatever, are ethical. And it would obviously be cool to have Carol Baskin, but the second thought was cosmic skeptic. But like I said, Tiger King got back to me and he said no, because he couldn't do Zoom. He wrote me a letter. But yeah, I'll pull out the letter and show you guys some time. But Monkey said, gets it given, you are my favorite debater on all topics, biological. Well, Fear says Zoom have a prison. They, well, he can't Zoom in prison, yeah. I think RFFEFCE says James, do you think you can actually get to 100,000 subs? I definitely believe it, folks. I'm determined. I love this channel. I'm excited about it. Believe me, folks. I'm crazy. I'm serious. I will work day and night to make this platform bigger and more epic than ever. We want, I mean, the reason that kind of put me into this is I felt like academia, to be fair, not all. Not all, not all, not all, not all, not all. But some in academia I think want to shut down debate and I don't want that. That's why we started. That's why I wanted modern day debate to be this neutral platform that's willing to have even controversial views that everybody disagrees with. And so, but yes, I know joke. Depends on what we're able to pull off this summer. We want to do some huge Kickstarter, one Kickstarter event. We want to do one maybe in April and then maybe one in July. And we're just kind of playing it by ear, maybe every few months. And if we can get a big enough debate, like let's say two seconds, plugging in, if we could get some of those big debates like Jordan Peterson against someone else that's gigantic and it gets a million or two million views, like yeah, I think that we could even potentially, I mean, we'd have to really just get a supreme debate. That could get us to 100,000 maybe by the end of the year. I don't know, I mean, that's optimistic. That's twice what we grew, that was twice in terms of what we grew with last year. And so I agree it's not likely. We would, in order to do that, we would need a mammoth debate that shocks the whole internet. I'm open to trying to do that this summer and I'm like looking, I'm thinking of ideas for how we can do that. And, but yeah, I am excited for the future. I do, but yeah, I mean, maybe it's two years. Maybe it takes another two years. Maybe, but I definitely am determined to grow as big as we can. And I'm, yeah, very serious about that. And so I think it's just a matter of, you know, round up Peterson versus Dilla-Hunti round two. That's right, they only discussed once, right? So I mean, that would be epic. I totally agree. I don't know how much it would be. I've got to figure out a lot. And you know, Matt would probably want something relatively close in the same price. I'm guessing, I don't know for sure. So I don't want to speak for Matt. Forgive me for that. But frankly, I wouldn't blame him. I mean, you know, it's like a lot of, that's what a lot of speakers say. I want whatever my opponent gets, at least that much, or more, like that's not uncommon. And so Heroes at Midnight says, get Trump on that, that would be big. It's so true that would be big. I don't know if he's going to come on, but we'll see, that would be epic. Gutsick Gibbon says, I need to see Kent Hoven debate Nathan Thompson on the flat earth. I agree, that would be epic. But Kent won't do it. He has repeatedly said no, so I don't know. Mark Reed says, Jordan Peterson did not debate Matt Dillon. They had more of a discussion. That's true. Yeah, it wasn't very formal. But yeah, it would be awesome. But yeah, I know joke, Jordan Peterson, I've seen some of his requirements are $50,000. And that's something that, even if, I mean, we'd have to get virtually everyone on our Kickstarter, on our subscriber list at modern day debate to do that. Gabrielle Kay said, less than a year, need to dream big now and act. I agree, like I'm very serious, you guys. When I say that we want to take some big risks this year, the Kickstarter is going to allow us to do that. And I think a big thing too is in-person debates. Once the restrictions lift, especially this summer and fall, I am pretty big on, I want to do some big name debates in-person and I think that'll also help a lot in terms of growing. But yes, Gutsick Gibbons said, I can't believe modern day debate got blacklisted by Kent Hoven F in the chat. Damn. What are you talking about? Is this some sort of tasteless joke? Did he ban us? I don't know what you're talking about. I'm confused. But yeah, I, oh yeah. He just, he doesn't, Kent'll still come on, but it's really hard. So like David P. Neff got him to come on. Mark Drizzel actually like texts him. He got him to come on. He might get him to come on again. But yeah, Kent's really, he's not as easy to get on as he used to be. His new secretary, I blame, but no, to be fair, it was because I, the Professor Dave debate, Professor Dave said stuff about Kent afterward that Kent fairly didn't like. Cause I should have said, hey, Kent's not here to defend himself, so let's wrap it up. But yeah, so Kent, that basically is the reason why it's really hard to get Kent to come back on. We've only had him on twice since then. But Andrew T. says, you were so nice to him though. I don't know. I do think it's fair though that I should have, it's true that I want to give everybody a chance to defend themselves. So, and that's something that I didn't do a good job of. And R-F-F-E-F-C-E says 50,000 is an excessive and he calls himself a Christian. To be fair, one thing is that, so like Sam Harris wants like 25,000, the last I heard. Which I, and I think 50,000 is excessive. I think 25,000 per Sam Harris to do a philosophy debate is excessive. Sam Harris is a great, he's great in neuroscience. I'm sorry, I don't think he's a good philosopher and I don't think he's worth that much. But I don't think he's bad to want 25,000. It depends on what he's doing, like let's say, so for example, Peter Singer, he wants 20,000. My old philosophy department I was at, at Minnesota State, they, Peter Singer, they had him come. They had to pay him $20,000, but he gave all of it to charity. And if that's what Peterson or Sam Harris are doing, I'm like, you know, I wouldn't say that they're like bad or something. But Gutsick Given says, Kent is a luxury you can afford. I could hear her saying it in her voice. Ian Chen says, Justisle 1300 Big Dino extension three. Is that for his secretary? His secretary does not like us. I think it's Juliana, Julietta. Not a fan of modern day debate. But no, it's all right. But yes, that's nice of you, Mark Reid. I wish I was kind to everyone, but so it's kind of annoying how nice James is. That's funny. I wish it was true, but sometimes I'm not always, I can assure you, sometimes I'm cranky and I'm working on it. I'm a, what is it? I'm a work in progress, you know, still growing. But thank you for your kind words. And so yeah, I mean, that's, Monkey says Sam Harris is giving 10% of all his income to charity. Good for him. That's good. And then said, Mark Reid said, I doubt Peterson or Sam Harris will be donating their fees to charity. I have no idea. Guts of Gibbon. James F in the chat for Rhonda. Yeah, Rhonda was awesome. Seriously, like I felt like Rhonda was my best friend. And now she's gone. Rhonda was Kent Hovind's old, like past secretary. She's still alive. It's just that Juliana took her job. She's working there now instead of Rhonda. Rhonda was the easiest person in the world to work with. Super cooperative, agreeable. Juliana was always like, eh, no, you did this. And you should go back and put Kent Hovind's store link, his online store link and all of those debates in addition to his YouTube channel link. And it was just like, no joke. She said that. And I was like, geez. But she was purposely being difficult. No joke. But yes, Ian Chen, thanks for your kind words, said James and Erica are the best. I got nothing against Erica. Okay, folks, you know, like, no, I'm kidding. As I say, Erica is YouTube's favorite daughter. So, but yes, let's see. You guys, I love hanging out with you. I should let you go. It's getting late, but I do wanna let you know. We appreciate you. It's already in my time, it's 8.13. I'm in mountain time. And for you guys, I'm sure it's even later. So I've gotta let you guys get a good night of rest. I hope you guys really do. Stripper liquor says James serving the tea on the guests. Let's see. Mark Reed, listen, I know, I am telling you the truth about the experiences I've had with Hovind's secretary. And it's like the truth. I can show you the emails. And so I don't know, Kent actually is willing to come on. We, when we told him about it, he's like, they were willing to come on. And so was the, I think it's Steve is the tech guy. But yeah, Tuss Beatbox says love hanging around here. Thanks for your kind words, Tuss. And Science Enthusiast said James unfiltered. Yeah, I mean, that's true. But what was it? Ian says, bye everyone. A couple of people, it's 11. Wow, it's 11.15 where Mark Reed is. 3.13 in the morning where Saffron is. Thank you guys. Seriously, we appreciate you. Yes, good ol' Rhonda. We hope Rhonda's doing well. Terrific lady. And Stripper liquor says G-Man versus Dilla Hunty. Oh yeah, cause Matt would do that. Matt told me he won't already. But yeah, we do appreciate you guys. And so I want to say thanks for everything. Tuss Beatbox is 4.14 in the morning. You're hardcore, Tuss. I'll give you that. But thank you guys. It's always a fun time. We hope you have a, like I would say, if, oh, well, hold on two seconds. Gutsick Gibbon, Erika, my arch nemesis says, I can't believe you're citing the anti-Ronda's receipts. Oh, to be a fly on the wall. Can't believe you're citing the anti-Ronda's receipts. I'm confused. What do you mean? What does anti-Ronda's receipts mean? Can't believe you're citing the anti-Ronda's receipts. No, I'm serious that Rhonda was awesome. Like for real, Rhonda was seriously great to work with. It's Juliana, I think it's Juliana, Julia, who is my arch nemesis. I'm just kidding. She's not, I've got no hard feelings for her, but I'm telling you, I'm not joking you. I perceived it as that she was purposely trying to be difficult. I don't know why. Well, actually I do know why. Like I said, I owned it. I could have done a better job moderating that debate, but receipts means emails. Anti-Ronda equals new sec of Hovind. No, I'm not anti-Ronda. Rhonda was great. I'm telling you, it's Juliana. Is Rhonda back? I mean, if Rhonda's back, I would be stoked because then we could have Hovind on all the time. Stripper liquor says James needs lessons on the cool kid's lingo. I know, yeah. And Gutsick Gibbons said, Juliana is the anti-Ronda. Is the joke, James? Sorry, are you such hip slang? Oh, I see, she is, yeah, she's the anti-Ronda. So yeah, I don't know what her deal is. She can't let it go, I don't know. But wanna say, we do appreciate you guys. I get what you're saying, now Gutsick. I get it now, but yeah, we do appreciate you guys. And then Mark Reed says, are there going to be any debates about the capital invasion? I feel like I shouldn't have said those words. YouTube, YouTube, please let us be. I'd be open to it, whether or not there are or not, I don't know, not easy to find someone who would do that topic, to be honest. I don't think. I don't know how somebody could argue it's good. I don't know, it just sounds kinda, I'll see if Jeff Doherty will, I don't know. But yeah, thank you guys. I hope you have a great rest of your night, seriously. I hope this feels like a community. I really, I love you guys, I'm serious. I appreciate you guys, thanks for hanging out here. I hope you're doing well. Feel free to shoot me an email. I'm not joking, you guys think I'm just like saying this. It's like a cliche, I'm serious. Shoot me an email if there's something I can do to make your life easier. We appreciate you guys. I honestly enjoy just partying here. And so, we hope to see you again. Thanks for hanging out here. I hope you have so many warm fuzzies from all the love here, talking about our love for Rhonda and my love for you and I love for Rhonda. Everybody's loved for Rhonda. Everybody loves Rhonda, believe me. Okay, thanks guys. I hope you have a great rest of your night. We'll be back Wednesday. Want to, you guys, don't miss out on this. This is actually gonna be really cool. Stated clearly. You've probably heard of the YouTube channel, right? So they, John Perry will be on, and I'm pumped about it, you guys. I think this is gonna be like big time in terms of it's gonna be a great debate between Tom Jump and Perry. I'm excited as I think it's gonna be really good. Let me show you the thumbnail if you haven't seen it. So on the bottom right of your screen, that's this Wednesday. This Friday is gonna be a controversial one as well. So don't miss that as we are going to have a TikTok influencer named Tyler Bluntman, who has about 650,000, so over half a million followers on TikTok. He is going to come here and do a debate and we're excited to have that debate, so it's gonna be an epic one. I'm reading the chat now, it's all the way over here. Monkey says, I'm James' big soy boy. Okay, well, thank you for that. Mark Reed says, good night, James. Love you too, buddy. I appreciate it, Mark. Colin Lorenz says, cheers, thank you. Appreciate that. Good night, James. Says the awake Christian, we appreciate that. I have regret, says I wanted to debate Amazing Atheist on it, but he is too scared. No kidding. Well, glad to see you, I hypocrite. And you're saying that you wanted to debate Amazing Atheist on the invasion of the Capitol because I can try to get you someone, like I can try to get you someone if you're up for that debate title. I don't know, frankly, I'm just gonna be honest. I'll tell you what Amazing Atheist said. Hey, it's true. It's not slander if it's true. It's not libel if it's true. I asked Amazing Atheist to do a debate between him and IP. And then he, you know, it was kind of like, seemed like he was on the fence, like maybe he, he did a video kind of seemingly trashing IP and then said, no, no, I'm not gonna do the debate. And I was like, okay, I've never had anybody do that. Just saying. Most of the time people will just say, nah, you know, not interested, but they don't go to make a video about their potential opponent. I just, it was unusual. I've just never had that happen. But so I don't even ask, is it Amazing Atheist? I don't even ask him. I don't really feel like ask, I mean, yeah, I mean, it seems like he's not gonna come on anyway, I hypocrite. But I don't feel compelled for the future where I'm like, I don't feel compelled to ask him. But if you wanted to debate somebody else, let me know, cause I can try to get somebody that you might dig. So I'll shoot you an email and we'll see. Cause I'm honestly totally willing to host the debate. I think YouTube would be all right with that. I don't know. For some reason I feel like they would. Jaymixon says, James, I don't know if you need a new camera or if the lighting is just bad. Where do we donate to the camera fund? That's really nice of you. I appreciate that. The lighting is not great. You can see I've got like the glare in the eyes and I, someone told me I'm washed out. I think that means I'm too bright, right? But yeah, I am working on that. And so I appreciate you asking. Wow, look at the gray hairs here. Very embarrassing, you guys. You see that? But it's all right. I have to say, I know that some of you maybe you don't like inspiring philosophy but I gotta say, like he, Mike's helped us a lot. He's always, he's never asked for anything. And he's always been a heavy hitter in terms of being a debater and having a YouTube following. He helped us roll immensely back when we were, we had like 2,000 subscribers. It was like, hey, can you, you wanna come on? And he's like, sure. And he never asked anything, I'm sure. So I've got, I just really appreciate Mike and said, Megan St. Hanna says, I like Amazing Atheist but don't give him any money. Okay, thanks. Thanks for that. Let's see. But let's see. But yeah, I appreciate you guys. Gutsick Gibbons says, I like IP2, very nice dude. He's this theistic stance is AOK with me. Oh, is that so Erika? But yeah, seriously, I really do appreciate you guys. So I hope you have a great rest of your night. I always enjoy it. I hate saying goodbye. No, I'm telling you seriously, I have so many gray hairs but I'm not ashamed and I'm not insecure about it. I think it's, I can't remember what proverb like 22, gray hair is a crown of glory. I've earned these gray hairs. I've even got some in my beard. It's hard to see. There's just like a four, but yeah. So anyway, I know Tuss Beatbox says, no, you hang up first James. I know that's what I feel like right now because I seriously love being here with you guys. You guys get me in a good mood and so now I'm just, I don't wanna go. Let's see. Erika says, James, I heard people are dunking on the creationism debates. Creationism debates, I have to tell you guys, right now creationism debates, I have no idea why aren't doing very well. People aren't watching them on average. Some of them will still do well. So like if we can get Kent Hovind on all hosted creation debate, but to be honest, I was like, they're just kind of tanking. Not a lot of people are watching them. So I'm kind of like, maybe we don't host them for a while. Maybe we overexposed them. We've had too many and people get sick of it. Like it could be like that with anything. So I don't know. Right now philosophy debates on Christianity versus atheism are doing pretty well. I think if we have new political debates, those will do well. And I think that, you know, we can only do so many socialism versus capitalism. But yeah, we do appreciate you guys. I... Boiled pizza said, what if you dyed all of your hair gray except for the gray hairs which you dyed your normal color? Maybe. Just own it. I really, I'm looking forward to, I know this sounds so bad. I wanna be a silver fox. I'm trying. Okay, so thank you guys. I hope you guys have a good night. It's hard to say goodbye. I appreciate you guys. And I hope you have a great night. Keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable. We'll be back. Like I said, bottom right of your screen is DNA code. That is going to be this Wednesday. And then a juicy controversial political debate on Friday that I cannot name on stream yet. And then Saturday, you guessed it, flat earth. I think it's flat earth. One of these days, one of these weekends we're gonna have a debate on not only big foot, that's gonna be epic. We're gonna have a debate on whether or not space is real. Flat earth Aussie, he is convinced it's not, I guess. But GB says, later James, thank you, GB, appreciate it. Appreciate Andrew Chee says, you're still a young stud. Appreciate that. I, yeah, I mean, I'm trying to know it for real. Like, there's, yeah, it's like, you know, this is good and bad with getting older. But I'm like, you know, I'm happy with it. But yeah, thank you guys. Should be juicy. As I mentioned, I am pumped for this one as well. Namely, Cosmic Skeptic will be here for a veganism debate this month. It's on the 16th. So that's actually this coming Saturday. That's right. So we have two this Saturday, you guys. That's gonna be awesome. Gutsick Gibbon, I'm dead serious. We're going to have a big foot debate. It's going to be epic? Seriously. I'll tell you the deets, but we have Dr. Jeffrey Meldrum, who is going to be debating. He's taking the position that Bigfoot is real. He says that it, I think if I remember right, he might take the stance that Bigfoot is gigantipithecus, still somehow survived and I guess made it, maybe over the land bridge, made it to the United States or something. But yeah, Tiger Jin says, I'm game for the Bigfoot debate. I'm, I am too, 100%. And want to let you know, it is going to be, Jay Mixon, thank you. He's pumped for it too. Is that Dr. Meldrum, it's a legit PhD. Like it's not some paper mill. And he seems to be a respected scholar from Idaho State University. It's controversial. But yeah, it's like, I'm telling you, it's gonna be epic. Zeldrizzo says I'd like to see more POCs on the channel. I'm totally open to that, you guys for real. 100% is, I, we've, it's like, I hope you know that we are. And let me know if there's someone in particular that you're like, hey, we really want to see this person that are a great debater, absolutely. What we care about, I'm just gonna put a blunt folks. We just care about like, are you pleasant to work with and are you a good debater? And I have, so we don't care about anything else. And so we sometimes there are demographics that are just rare to find. And we're like, hey, we're happy to have you on though. I hope everybody knows we don't have any prejudice against anybody. Like I never purposely, because it's true. This channel is almost always white dudes. And you know, it's like, I have no guilt over that because it's not like I'm trying to make it always white dudes. I'm happy to have it be anybody. It's just that white dudes, especially young white guys loved to debate. I don't know. I mean, like I'm open to have anybody though. I hope you guys know that. Gutsick Gibbon. Oh, you know about, do you Gutsick Gibbon, have you heard of Jeffrey Meldrum? I'm curious. Anti-cleansing said, I hope you'll be a free speech advocate someday. I am to the degree to which YouTube will let us get away with it. We're not gonna saw off the branch that we're sitting on on YouTube. If we wanna do really controversial debates, maybe we'll live stream them on another platform for the really controversial ones. But I mean, we're not gonna do it on YouTube because this is too good of a debate platform. They refer, I mean, they basically refer people to our debates by putting them in the suggestions. And then Andrew T said also the Twitch streamer, TryHacks recently got into debating social issues. He did great on his first debate. You should send him a message if you can. TryHacks. I am open to that, Andrew, for real. By the way, Andrew T, I think is the first person that had recommended vegan gains to us. I'm like 99% sure I remember that. And so, let's see. Gutsick Gibbon said you emailed him, so you've heard of him, of Jeffrey Meldrum. And she said, what? I know him. What the heck? I am so excited. Yeah, he seems cool. He sounds like a pleasant fellow. Like, I'm pumped about it. It's seriously, it's gonna be epic. She said, I emailed Meldrum while back. He's wild. Guys, he studies locomotion. If anyone was qualified to talk about Bigfoot, it's Jeff Meldrum. Oh, that's cool. I'm seriously excited. It's gonna be epic. Andrew T says also the Twitch streamer. Oh, we got that, sorry. And then, let's see. Somebody said, what about David Friedman? I think I saw. Zaldrizo says, I'm a very happy person. I'm so glad to hear that, friend. Good for you. They said, can we do a debate? Is Bitcoin a scam? Ooh, juicy. I'm open to that. The stripper liquor said that vegan couple should come back. I agree. They are the vegan congenial couple. Everybody feels like they can relate to them. They're really kind. We really appreciate that. I love those guys. We'd be happy to have them back. James Nixon says, hey, James, your show just hasn't crossed over to that demographic. I actually know a few POC debaters in that community, some with very interesting views. Hey, I'm totally happy to have them on. I absolutely, people from any walk of life. So those debaters that you're referencing, absolutely. Please let me know their names. Is that we really do, we wanna have people from all over the place. All walks of life come on. So we do absolutely want to have your friends on the people that you know. And then, let's see. Club, stoked to see you. Glad you're here, buddy. But yeah, I am pumped. Our relevant is another POC who debates on issues of philosophy and social issues. He was on Destiny's Stream recently. He streams nights too. Oh, that'd be cool. I'm 100% open. If you guys, one thing is I've got my chat, my typing is like now it's farther away from me. If you guys are willing to email me, these recommended people that you know would come on, that helps me a lot, seriously. RFFEFC says, oh, James, remember about Bernardo Castro. See if you can get him on. I can't remember about him. I know you mentioned him. Oh, he's the idealist, right? I think I remember. M-E-K says, hi. Hi, back. M-E-K, thank you for being with us. We're glad you're here. Or M-I-K, sorry about that. Gutsick says, James, please let me comod the Meldrum debate. I would love to meet him. That would be cool. I'm all in. If you want to, you're in, Gutsick Gibbon. I'm super excited for it. Did you email him, by the way? Was it about, was it about Bigfoot or was it something else, Erika? But yeah, we'll have Gutsick Gibbon in on that debate. It's Saturday the 23rd. So come on and comod, it'll be fun, Erika. I'm really excited. I was so happy that he said yes. Caleb says it's K-Lub. Thank you. Sorry about that, brother. Says, okay, K-Lub. My boy, glad to see you. There it is. Trend following Koyun. Says, James, will you bring David Friedman back? Please bring on Walter Block and Bob Murphy. Man, this is a lot of names. Okay, just let me, okay. You guys have mentioned like a hundred names, so let me just write them all down. Ah, relevant. And let me just type this in. Ah, relevant. Plus Bob Murphy, Walter Block. What were the ones I missed earlier? Sorry about that. Betsy Gibbons said, yes, thanks, James. I'm so in. It was about a PhD program at his university. Oh, that's cool. Huh, that's so funny. That's really cool. But yeah, I'm pumped. Oh yeah, we are in the Twitch chat right now. If you guys love Twitch, wanna let you know we, Bruswick says, Vash would debate I, hypocrite. We could ask Jordan Peterson versus Richard Wolfe. I would like to have that, Bruswick. Thanks for that idea. And Cezek versus Shapiro would be a great meme. That's a good point. That really would. Oh, we've got, here we go. Lawson, just thank you for putting those, the names of these streamers, of these Twitch streamers, in the chat. If you guys know that they would say yes, that helps a lot because sometimes just kind of makes it go quick for me to get them on. And so thank you for sharing that. I am all in and we appreciate it. And so I wish unnatural vegan would debate, some monkey says. And, but yeah, I gotta go. I'm sorry, I still wait, but this has been so fun. Tryhacks I've got. Thank you, Tusk, just wrote that down. Appreciate that help. And thanks for mentioning Tryhacks. And then, but yeah, I seriously appreciate you guys. This is always fun. And I hope you guys have a great rest of your day or night, depending on where you are. Keep sifting other reasonable from the unreasonable. We'll see you next time, you guys. It's gonna be epic. Cosmic skeptic debating meganism. That's Saturday. And then like I said, Wednesday, John Perry from, stated act. I'm so two seconds. Stated clearly. Unless it's stated actually. So yes, it's gonna be awesome. Thank you guys. Hope you have a great rest of your night. Take care. Keep sifting other reasonable from the unreasonable.