 Welcome. I'm Hans Rodenburg from the Scientific Bureau of the Dutch Green Party. We're hosting this webinar as part of a project of the Green European Foundation called Cities as Places of Hope. And in this project we bring together local politicians from all over Europe and highlight inspiring examples of green local politicians. We're really making a difference in their cities. We have two guests who will both give a presentation of about 50 minutes. And after both those presentations, we start the discussion. And now the first guest is, I would like to introduce tonight is Tom Lloyd Goodwin and Tom is an associate director of CLES, which is pronounced class, if I'm right. And that's the national organization for local economies in Great Britain. They help city councils all over the United Kingdom to develop economies that bring maximum benefits to people and places within the limits of the environment, or so it says on their website. And one of the ways in which they do that is through the concept of community wealth building that we are talking about here tonight. CLES is one of the most important drivers in the United Kingdom of community wealth building. And Tom is here to tell us all about it. So Tom, great to have you here. And the floor is all yours. Thanks so much, Hans. Thanks so much for inviting me here. It's a real pleasure as always to be kind of here in the Netherlands, albeit virtually on this occasion, I wish I wish we could be together in person. The Netherlands was actually the last place that I visited before we went into lockdown. And I was talking about community wealth building in Rotterdam actually, so a number of community groups. So it's great to see the concept continue to gain traction. It's great to hear that you're thinking about community wealth building in Amsterdam too. Obviously, Amsterdam's embraced donor economics, which is great. If any of you are interested, we recently ran a webinar with Kate Rayworth, the author of donor economics. At the beginning of September, we were exploring the significant overlap between community wealth building and donor economics. So do go onto YouTube and have a look at that if you're interested. But this evening, then I'll talk about community wealth building, obviously, and I'll talk about the way in which we've been working with numerous localities across the UK to implement community wealth building strategies on the ground. I'll talk a bit about theory, but I'll also talk about practice, of course, and give some practical examples of the kind of work that Claire's has been doing. So I hope that that all sounds okay. Hans, you've all already given a good false introduction, but just a little bit about me and Claire's just before I kind of crack on. So as you said, I'm Associate Director of Policy here at Claire's. I head up a team that writes all of our publications. I come and talk at events like this and generally look to articulate Claire's view on the political economy. We're a national organization for local economies. We're all about progressive economics for people for place and for planet and we've got a firm commitment to places and communities who are experiencing social and economic inequality and lack of opportunity. And our fundamental aim really then is to achieve social justice, good local economies and effective public services for everybody everywhere. So let me start just with a bit of context setting and saying something about the moment that we're now in and why we need a different approach to economics to economics, economic development and why community wealth building is so relevant right now. So for the last 18 months of course we've been in the grip of a major public health and economic event. We will definitely unprecedented really in its magnitude in peacetime, but it's it's really important to say that even before COVID hit that our operating context was already affected by many long standing and intersecting crises so despite the fact that economic growth has risen dramatically since the 1980s in countries like the UK in countries like the Netherlands where it's it's nearly quadrupled. The statistics show us that actually you know our economy is failing to deliver for people for place and for planet. I'll refer to some UK statistics but you know my sense is that they're pretty similar in the Netherlands to but in the UK right now poverty is at a record high, almost a million people now have no guaranteed work from one week to the next they're on zero hour precarious contracts. Life expectancy has recently stalled for the first time in a century in the UK, particularly in areas of deprivation it's actually starting to go backwards so a truly shocking statistic really and of course we all face the ongoing mortal threat of climate emergency the full fury of which seems to have appeared almost everywhere this summer where we've seen waves of violent heat violent rain smashing records, killing hundreds of people and reminding us that unless we urgently change tack that our planet remains on a pathway to human made destruction and the worry of course is that at the moment there's this kind of sense of let's get back to the old normal let's let's get back to our offices let's get the roaring 20s up and running but based on what we had before COVID-19 this amounts to a little more than let's get the old patterns of wealth extraction poverty inequality back into play. And there's a strong sense then I think that if the purpose of our economy is to be more than just a wealth rating machine for an elite group of people that given where we are at the moment that our economy is failing to deliver for people place and planet. But of course with with with with alternatives like Community wealth building. We do have the promise of something different so let me move into an exploration of this concept so Community wealth building in a nutshell then is about trying to harness the power of large institutions and particularly public institutions and start to enable local economies to grow and to develop from from within. And we refer to these large institutions as anchor institutions so you know large institutions that are rooted in local communities that can start to use their size and impact to improve economic, social and environmental well being. So in practice this means local councils hospitals, universities, but potentially also the private sector to if they can be convinced to focus on more of a triple bottom line approach so concerned for the environment and workers, as well as a driver of the profit. So, you know how do they use their impact to do this then. Well, first and foremost, it's, it's about establishing the right kind of economic strategy and here there's a role, a particular role for local governments for regional governments. So as we talk about the importance of trying to build inclusive economy so economies that are focused on social goals, social justice environmental sustainability and prosperity for everybody. And that decouple this idea that growth that economic success is contingent on growth and recognize that continual growth on a finite planet with finite resources is of course impossible and this really requires abandoning gross domestic product as the leading GDP is the leading indicator of economic health, and to instead adopt a broader set of metrics so livelihood, well being happiness, poverty reduction, carbon reduction to so we need our economic strategies to have more of this kind of focus. What we also need in our economic strategies is a commitment to reshape business support at a local level, and to focus on stopping wealth being extracted out of our local economies and committing to growing more socially productive forms of business where the focus is not about maximizing profits to distant shareholders. And we call these kinds of business businesses generative business. The profit and surplus is created is shared more broadly between owners and workers allowing wealth and opportunity to flow through to local people and to local places so in practice this means more social enterprises, more co-operatives and worker as well as private businesses that as I say are committed to the triple bottom line. So, in addition to the strategy and the reshaping of business support, it's also about harnessing the everyday practices of these large anchor institutions for great economic, social and environmental impact. So, you know, the large councils universities hospitals spend billions of pounds within within our local economies. So can more of this money be directed towards more locally productive forms of business, enabling that wealth and resource to be kept within the confines of the local economy. They employ potentially thousands of people, you know so can, can they offer better terms and conditions, can they pay the real living wage, can they look to recruit people from areas of deprivation within our cities and towns and rural areas too. They often have large sources of financial resource like their pension funds. So can more of this be used to invest in local priorities and divest from things like fossil fuels. They often have surplus land. So could this be transferred to the community, or could it be used to build affordable housing rather than being sold off to that to the highest bidder so used in the right way these that these these these assets can start to produce tangible benefits for local communities and they can start to impact on what we call the social determinants of health. So things like health, income, economic equality, job stability, a sense of agency and purpose and access to safe and affordable housing. So, to illustrate the way in which we can start to do this local level, let me let me turn to some practical examples of our work at Claire's. So I'll refer first to the example of Preston it's often been dubbed the Preston model. It's kind of the quintessential example of community wealth building really so in Preston we work with a collective of six different large anchor institutions that have been brought together by the city council. So, in Preston, they, they'd originally bought into what we might call the classic neoliberal inward investment dream where it was kind of build the big shopping center, build fancy restaurants, cinemas, and economic opportunity will trickle down for all to share. Now the financial crash happened, and that opportunity evaporated and they were thinking well what are we going to do now. That led them to some of our work and to the idea of community wealth building. And we started to work with the council and that group of anchor institutions over over a four year period. The first thing we did was was focus on this idea of spending and trying to spend more money in the local economy with more of those locally productive forms of business that I mentioned. What we did over over a four or five year period was began to reshape the market for goods and services with those anchor institutions and grow more of those locally rooted companies within the economy. In terms of impact what that meant it meant kind of 70 million pounds more for the city economy. More for the regional economy in light of the multiplier effect that you get when you spend more money in a local economy it created 1600 more jobs. They didn't just focus on spending though we got them to focus on those other aspects of those other assets that they had so employment they started paying the real living wage 4000 more people were paid the real living wage. Now developing their economy more how could they grow more food cooperatives, more tech cooperatives in their in their area they start to think about finance and their pension funds, and they've they've invested in affordable housing. They're thinking about municipal energy. They're even thinking about a community bank. Now, in terms of what this is done for Preston, when we started our work Preston was one of the most deprived cities in the UK it was in the bottom 20%. After that four year piece of work Preston and moved out of that bottom 20% and it's now been voted the most improved place to live in the UK. In Birmingham we've done we've done a similar thing we've established a network of anchor institutions to maximize the benefit that they can bring to the Birmingham economy so that's, that's the local NHS it's the universities it's the council, it's housing associations. And in Birmingham what we've done is we've actually introduced the UK's first community wealth builder in residence so a coordinator, a community wealth building coordinator that works across the different institutions to share good practice and implement community wealth building strategies. And to that end our network coordinator or our community wealth building residents is working to establish a database of preferred local socially productive suppliers who can then kind of provide anchor institutions with their goods and services. And in the UK, so in the UK, of course we have devolved government so Scotland is the first national government to adopt a whole scale community wealth building approach. Scotland have appointed a new minister for community wealth, they're looking at introducing a community wealth building act. We've seen a number of projects across different localities in Scotland so we've written community wealth building action plans, which are now being implemented so it is really taking off across the UK. So let me just briefly say something about that so in relation to progressive employment, for example, we're seeing some great examples of the local NHS in the UK doing really great things in this space so a local level in the UK we have NHS trusts or health boards who are groups of different hospitals, and they employ thousands of people and the approach they take to employment can make a massive difference to people's lives so one particular hospital group here in Great Manchester where we're based has they've got rid of advertising jobs and interviewing people for all of their entry level positions, and they're now reserving all of those entry level positions for local residents in areas of deprivation, who've been on these pre-employment training programs that they set up. So they've basically looked at their employment profile, they've identified deprived areas where they're not employing people, and they designed these very specific pre-employment training programs to enable people to enter their workplace. And crucially for them it's no longer about who is the best person for the job, it's about how can we use our employment opportunities to address poverty, deprivation and inequality. Second just briefly then on progressive spending, with progressive spending of course it's not just about spending more money locally, it's about trying to direct that money towards more socially productive businesses. In Newham which is a council in Great London, what they've done in social care and in home care, so care within people's homes, they've taken what was once one big contract and they split it into eight small contracts and they said, okay, so it's one contract per person. So that's immediately disincentivised the big large extractive care home companies from coming in and swooping up the contract. And they've also said that suppliers must, they must pay the real living wage, they must employ local people and they must be based within the borough, so within the borough of Newham, that council area. And what we have now in Newham in London is eight local small businesses who are required to operate in a more socially productive way, so paying the real living wage who are now delivering their home care. So, brief conclusion, just kind of a final word on opportunities and challenges. So poverty, deprivation, climate emergency, COVID-19 has exposed the underlying fragilities and failings in our economies. To address those challenges, though, as I hope I've explained, there is real opportunity for groups of large anchor institutions to come together in place to use their assets to build and develop local economies from within. To realise that things like public expenditure is not just a cost to the public purse, but it's an opportunity to stimulate demand in the local economy. We've got to remember, though, that these kinds of interventions, whilst they're feasible, they're not easy. They run counter to the mainstream. You know, I talked about the importance of economic strategy and planning, but you know, it can be a bit of an add on here. Local councils will say, well, we'll have our normal strategy, which is about growth and inward investment and high tech sectors, and we'll maybe do a little bit of community wealth building and add that on. Whereas really, you know, we need economic strategies to be all about community wealth building and not just a kind of an add on at the end. Addressing climate emergency and environmental breakdown is of course another huge challenge. We're doing a lot of work at the moment to really think about how these community wealth building interventions that I've talked about can do more to address climate emergency. In fact, we're releasing a major new toolkit for councils called a community wealth building energy transition, and this will focus on shifting the way in which energy systems operate and talk more about community energy and how we can do and implement that more at a local level. Despite these challenges, though, final word, despite these challenges, though, given where we are, given where we are in national policy terms at the moment with the kind of policies, you know, our government certainly in Westminster are coming out with. At a local level where we must do battle for social economic and ecological justice. Thank you. Thanks Tom. That's great. I want to give room for one or two clarifying questions and then we'll start this question after the next presentation. Does anyone have a clarifying question for Tom. Perhaps can you give in one or two sentences there, the argumentation why the local level is the level to address this problem for in my experience in the city council. I always get the argument that well there's national politics we cannot do anything about it. So, can you point it out. I think almost you've answered the question I think it's because it's because of the absence of leadership and direction at the national policy level that we have no alternative but to think about well we must do things at a local level. Okay the exception is Scotland in the UK where it is being implemented at a national level but in the UK we won't see a change of government for another four years. And they're not interested in any of this so we've got to get on a local level and really start to think about well how can we change practice at a local level to kind of solve these problems that we face in our local economy so we've got no alternative but to do it locally at the moment. Thanks. Yeah I was wondering earlier in your presentation you said that COVID has kind of put a stop to everything but do you also see COVID as a as an opportunity for for us to start a new process. Well certainly our national government in the UK is, you know, hell ban on us getting back to normal and getting back to our offices but when I speak to a lot of economic development teams in local councils in the UK. They're kind of like, yes COVID was that wake up moment where we realized there was a disconnect between our economic development practice and outcomes for people on the ground so I think it has been a motivating factor and a recognition that. So those other statistics that I mentioned you know we did have some very shocking statistics just before COVID those those statistics about life expectancy going backwards poverty at a record high. Yeah, I think that has been a big wake up call for people but yes it COVID has been motivating. Thanks. Thank you. Yes, so tonight is Simeon Blom. Simeon has been a council member for the Dutch Green Party Green Links for seven years now in Amsterdam and was a candidate also for the Green Party at the national elections this year. As a council member, Simeon has always worked to achieve more just and inclusive society, especially in the social economical weaker neighborhoods of Amsterdam, like the Bellwood. In his endeavor, he launched an initiative called near water for the bike, which translates as more value for the neighborhood. And he did this together with his colleagues in maanen and even them charisma. And it's a plan that results completely around community wealth building and he's here to tell us more about it. So, welcome Simeon and the floor is all yours. Thank you so much, Hans. And thank you. The people from that waiters hotline bureau. For organizing this event for the invitation and I was, and of course welcome to everyone who is listening. I think it's really inspiring to have you all here. And look at the presentation of Tom because I really recognize a lot of things. So further in my speech I will tell something about it. I realized that it's really interesting to talk about economics and I never knew that it will be this interesting. And that is, I'm really just about it. And it has to do with the way that this approach is a new, innovative, circular approach. It's really what we need. It's different than the neoliberal dominance we have here in the Netherlands. So in Simeon Blom, I am a proud member of the Green Party in the Netherlands. And as the introduction said, I am also a member of the city council. And the reason why I became politically political active lies in the reason why we introduced this new approach. Because inequality has been increasing in the Netherlands, and also in Amsterdam for years. We see that inequality is more concentrated in certain district in our city, for example Amsterdam Southeast, the Belmer, the district where I grew up, the district where I live, and also the district that inspired me to become more active in the society and in the politics. As far as Greenland's Amsterdam is concerned, we, from the moment we became the biggest in the city for the first time we got in power. We introduced a Southeast Marseille plan. And we aim with the Marseille plan to stop the growing inequality. And as I said already, it is especially districts like Southeast who face the negative aspects of inequality. We see it in deep poverty, we see it in social issues like criminality, and that needs to stop. What we said, when you want to invest in something like a master plan, a plan that will take 20 years, it will be a plan of 20 years, we should invest in the basic. And the basic is that people should be able to earn enough money so that they can live and not survive. And we submitted a community well-building initiative and it's approach, as Tom already said, aimed at enhancing the wealth and ownership of communities and individuals. And the point is that jobs and economy are entered locally as much as possible and that capital benefits as many local residents and entrepreneurs as possible. This provides more local stability. That's what we really believe. We want the positive international experiences as, for example, Preston to inspire us and other districts in Amsterdam to do the same. And we are proud that during the negotiations on the corona crisis, the coalition agreed that we should invest on this way to get out of the crisis. And Amsterdam-South-East is in the Netherlands, the place where the most money is earned per square kilometer. And as I said, it's also one of the poorest areas in Amsterdam and in the Netherlands. We have a lot of headquarters of international companies and also national companies here in this same area with high poverty rates. How can that be possible in such an area that so much wealth is accumulated and at the same time, there is so much poverty and we see that we need to make the right choices. Especially when it comes to our economy, in a way, wealth is distributed. Together with experts from South-East, we have thought about how the money earned in South-East can also flow back into the district so that the residents and entrepreneurs can benefit better. And of course, this approach is not a ready-made solution, but a proposal for a sustainable cooperation, especially a cooperation between the municipality, various people, initiatives, organizations and companies in South-East to build a new economy together. And what are we going to do then? First, we will do research on how does the capital flow looks in this area, what comes in and what goes out. What goes out in the pockets of CEOs, in the pockets of shareholders and we also will do research on the way our informal economy looks like. We have a big informal economy in South-East. We have a lot of people who are baking cookies at home, who are making, we have catering, who are making clothes at home. We also have a big illegal taxi circuit, we call that SNOT-ers, and people do that because they don't earn enough to live. And we are going to research how does that money flow looks like. We also will facilitate an incubator for corporations. We have a lot of people with good IDs, but sometimes they need inspiration from international examples. Sometimes they need training, of course, sometimes they need money to start capital to invest. And I'm so proud to see that here in this area we now are busy with a windmill in the capital, one of the vulnerable areas in our city. But the local residents will have their own windmill as a cooperation. And I said, the benefits of that cooperation, why don't we put it in community welcomes? So it can really be circular. Also what we're going to do, of course, we will make agreements with institutions and enter institutions and also companies to hire local people more. As I said, it's one of the areas in the Netherlands where per square kilometer, the most money is earned in the Netherlands because of all the headquarters, but not many people from this area work in those headquarters. So we really have a big polarization inequality in this area. So we are going to make agreements with those companies to hire local people to organize traineeships and when you hire those people, pay them good. And also what we are going to do is make agreements with those companies and also institutions for local purchasing. Because as I said, we have a lot of talents, we have a lot of people who are an expert in whatever, do the purchasing locally. I'm really inspired by an initiative of some young men here in the Southeast, they have an African background. They contacted the people they know in Africa. They bought a piece of land. They are going to pay the farmers good wage in a circular way. And they will plant beans, coffee beans, and they want to purchase the coffee beans here locally and from the perspective of community role building. So it's really circular, the way you are doing it, they will hire young people, they will train young people, and for us it's important the way those coffee beans are produced. Human rights should be upfront. And what we are also going to do is look and do research on what and how many public buildings we have, and what public buildings we can give to those corporations, to those initiatives, so that it can start on a good way. I'm also proud of an other initiative. In one of the areas we have here in Southeast in Amsterdam, Fans of Boulder. And also one of the vulnerable areas we have. And it is also an area where you see that the use of healthcare is high. But it's really high. And a few years ago there was a lady who said, no, I'm going to work with especially women who are vulnerable, and we are going to do kitchen gardening. It started really small. The last year it grew. And recently they came to the ID to become in cooperation. They are really big, they have several kitchen gardenings places. They have won a lot of prizes, because since their initiative started, you see a better quality of life, because of social cohesion, because people are meeting each other, because they are doing something with green things with vegetables. It's really positive. They are going to make a cooperation, and they will sell the vegetables they planted. Better, with the money they earn, they will start another cooperation. And they call it community wealth and health. Since we know that the use of healthcare in that area is high, we know that the contract, the one that gives healthcare, they get big contracts. But why can we not democratize that and give the people the right to organize it themselves? So that's really something which I'm really interested in. So we do this all to create an economy, not for the few, but for the many. The many who were marginalized. And I think it's their time to take ownership of their economy to achieve social justice they finally deserve. Thank you. Thanks a lot, Simeon. It's always a pity we can't applaud you with a lot of sound at a webinar. So I saw a lot of some questions coming in, but before we go to the questions of the public, I will want to give you and Tom the possibility to ask some questions to each other because I can imagine you listen to each other stories and wanted to know more about some things. I really want to compliment Tom and his organization for all the work they are doing, all the articles they are writing, doing research, because it really helps. It really helps in being inspired in seeing perspectives and also showing the people, look, hey, we have examples internationally where it works. And I must say the biggest fight and challenge are not the people. The biggest challenge are the one who work in institutions like the government. Because everyone is locked up in the system we have right now, the neoliberal system. And we really need to plan this idea in people's head that it can be different. There are other options. So that's really a challenge and your articles and other examples helps us to do that. I have one question. Can you, the way you did it in England, in several cities, for example, Preston Preston, did you use legal options, for example, enforcing institutions in working from these perspectives. There was no legal compliance with the shifting of spend. It was very much done by, if you take the big contracts and split them down into smaller contracts, then they become less appealing to the big companies. And you start to get into the areas where the smaller local socially productive companies become more interested. And then it was about encouraging the council and the other anchor institutions to do things that we call meet the buyer events where they'll go out and they'll meet the suppliers and they'll kind of start to build relationships with the local suppliers and and say to them, hey, you know, it's okay, you can, you should be tendering for these opportunities to like, because of procurement law, what was what was once UK procurement law was, but sadly, sadly, no, sadly no longer UK procurement law. It's, we obviously we still we're still subject to kind of WTO procurement rule so you know there are certain regulations there so you can't, you can't just hand out contracts to people. So you have to do it within those kind of constraints. So, but then there was no legal compliance it was done through kind of negotiation and kind of talking to people and building relationships. I mean, it was wonderful to hear to hear your input, Simeon, and it's as inspiring to us to hear the other places that, you know, well, you know, taking these ideas and running with them to you know and and and contributing your own methods and practices and approaches I thought, you know, the kitchen garden idea sounded fascinating. I don't know whether you've, you've started to kind of think about what could though, could the kitchen garden start to supply the big anchor institutions with with with food would that be a mechanism that that you could you could you could start to help that kitchen garden to grow and to be bigger. So that's really one of the, the name of the kitchen garden is blue and so for the Dutch people who are interested in the two to know more blue and they are really an example in the Netherlands, especially when you look at a group of people they can reach. Yeah. But that is their plan to sell their vegetables to all to the enter institutions. Yeah, our policy is to facilitate that to help maybe invest, open indoors, having the conversations with the hospitals, the schools, the big companies. So they can sell their vegetables. So those people can better their lives because why they have health issues has to do with poverty. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You make a really important point though as well Simeon at the end there where you say that the barriers are often the institutions themselves I think that's what it's what I was trying to say at the end of my presentation where it's it's often offices within the you might be saying well actually well we can't do that you know and they're very used to that they're enshrined within a neoliberal way of working they're enshrined within a particular model. And it's not necessarily their fault it's just the way that they it's with the way that people have been working for the last 30 years means that it's different it's very difficult to say. Let's stop thinking about inward investment and bringing in these big multinational companies and to think more about trying to grow locally socially productive businesses that's, is that a challenge for you within within Amsterdam Council as well I think I think we are the biggest so we now have that experience as a party that is in power. That is our biggest challenge. Putting it in people's heads that we can do it different that we that growing of the economy is why shouldn't that be the only aim we have as a society. The economy means in our system that inequality increases and that it has a negative aspects. Why can we not do it from a donut economy perspective. So it's a challenge. And that's why I think it's important to grow and movement. So I'm so happy to see that there are Dutch people here in this webinar, we as a people, we can do it, you know, in creating this movement. So this can spread further in the Netherlands. Yeah. Let's do that. Yes, and that's a good moment to let the people speak. Does anyone have a question for us. What's very interesting to hear that. Tom says EU procurement law sadly no longer is UK procurement law. Does that mean that he doesn't see procurement law as an obstacle to community wealth building. And the second question is, is linked to that. EU procurement law of course gives companies for from a broad chance to bid for government contracts and that might not always be bad in the view of, let's say cross border solidarity. If the municipality of Amsterdam want to develop a computer program or an app. They might say we want to be done by developers from Amsterdam, but there might also be a Bulgarian startup able or willing to do the job. The average income of Bulgaria is less than half of the average income in the Netherlands and certainly in Amsterdam. So, would you still prefer local suppliers in in that case. That's a question. Yes, thank you. I think the last question, especially was for me. That's a really good question. I think one thing should be more important. Why are we always choosing that. What is maybe more cheap. When you know that the way that the circumstances, the labor circumstances are not always good. We prefer to pay more when we know that the labor circle circumstances are better. And that's also in the idea of the donut economy of a circular economy. So, I hope we will have a situation that we will only choose that that is circular, donut perspective, and also benefits more people in the city and not one person or one company. I think, yeah, just just on your on your question as well, Richard, I think that EU procurement law doesn't have to be a problem so we the work that we did impressed and was done within the context of us still being part of the European Union and I suppose to to get over some of those problems that that's why it's important to break the contracts down so that they're not the higher value ones if we want. Listen, there are some contracts where maybe it does make sense for it to kind of be a big, big multinational to deliver it, you know, maybe, you know, we're not saying we're not saying every single contract necessarily has to be has to be delivered locally but kind of there are so many more contracts that could be and there's so much more that we could do to support our economy. And I think, you know, you can get round some of those requirements of the EU procurement law by making the contract if you have a lot of smaller contracts then you don't have to go out to tender in the same way as you would do as it being a bigger contract. And the local is important as Simeon says about you know, as I was saying as well that it's, it is more about the type of organization, it's as much about the type of organization as it is about how local it is so your point about a start up could you could you could use one you could use a start up perhaps because because it's, you know, it's, it's delivering a social benefit. But you know if there is obviously as Simeon says if there's a particular need within Amsterdam to kind of develop the local economy then, you know, why wouldn't you favor the Amsterdam economy over the Bulgarian economy. Amsterdam has plenty of problems of its own that it needs to solve and using procurement and spend to solve them should should be a mechanism that's available to you and used I think so. Right, thanks. I also see Mark has raised his hand. Yes. Next year I will actually be running for our representation in the neighborhood of fairness in Rotterdam. And I was wondering. Yeah, Preston is well a city with a couple hundred thousand inhabitants. Amsterdam Southeast. Not sure if it's 100,000 plus, but still pretty big. So cool. Can you go with community wealth building. Is it something that could be implemented in say small town of 5000 inhabitants. I would say so. Yeah, I mean you're always going to have, you know, even, even towns with a 5000 inhabitants they're probably going to have a local municipality. There's probably a hospital that might be a college will be housing associations perhaps schools public institutions where you can start to think about, you know, harnessing these assets in in the kind of way that that we're talking about so. But of course context is very different, you know, it will community wealth building would look different in a town with 5000 people then it would look like impressed them. It will look very different in Amsterdam than it will impressed and see if it's a point about the being so much more international finance in a city like Amsterdam. There isn't really any international financing in Preston, you know, so it's a very different set of context so community wealth building in Amsterdam might have to do more about thinking about how do we deal with international finance but yeah I'll let Timmy and perhaps speak to that point but yeah I think it can work anywhere but it's you know it's it's going to be different. I think it can work everywhere. It has almost 100,000 people. I think for a small place, for example 5000 people place that is maybe next to a city place small small villages in the Netherlands have a problem that young people leave the village, they leave the area and go to the city for many reasons. And how can you invest in those people, those young people to stay in the village. For example, have houses. We now have the problem with we have a housing crisis in the Netherlands. Most people, they cannot afford it. And when you apply for a social housing, you should wait for 15 years on the waiting list. And there is an example in the Netherlands from small city, where the people themselves they started their own house cooperation, housing cooperation. And that is the way they kept their young people in their village so I think this method can be used especially for young young villages for small villages. Cool sounds good. So it's an inspiring example of the housing cooperation. I think I also read about a small town that bought the local shopping center that was going bankrupt they bought it. And they let local local entrepreneurs start there without aiming to earn money from it, but it really helped to keep the community alive. And then I will reply on that really short, because I know there are many people who ask a question that the example you gave about the shopping center. I really want to invite people who are listening to come visit Southeast, the Belmer. A lot of people they go to the arena to the music industry, but try to come a bit more into the inner part of Southeast into the shopping center of Amsterdam support. This is a CBRC with the owner of this shopping center. I don't know if you know CBRC, but if there is one example of a capitalist CEO shareholder company who has no interest in people who live in an area. That is CBRC and you see it. We have the emptiness of the we have a lot of shops who are empty for maybe eight years, maybe 50% of the stores are empty. What does that mean for an area, the way you can live in an area, what does that do with safeness with a lot of problems. Already we had those problems as one of the vulnerable parts of the Netherlands, and the government can do nothing because they own the place they own that public space, since it is possible, because of our neoliberal way of doing that. So I really want to invite you to do that and I'm inspired by this example that those people they bought the shopping center I'm going to do research on that. Nice. I see some other question by book on the clock. I have a question for Simeon, because you told about the headquarters in the in the area of Southeast Amsterdam. Can you can you regulate their settlements in the area, because they take their own workers with them. Can you regulate that kind of things that they can take 50% and the rest they have to hire in from the area. We cannot force them. We cannot, we cannot force them to do that. In the proposal we submitted, we asked the mayor from the house of my to do research, if we can force them. It is not easy and we think it's not possible yet since of the neoliberal system, we have. What we're going to do is talking with them stimulate them to to cooperate with us. And of course we are really going to do research on what harder ways we can we can think of in maybe forcing them, but we don't really have a lot of options. I'm afraid seems like one for the national government. Yeah, the national government we have is already so liberal for more than 10 years so we see the effect when we look at inequality and especially these areas. Although young people who use violence or do drug smuggling. There's nothing that's not good, of course not, but it comes from somewhere. 10 years ago, it started when they needed to be helped. The youth care, what was getting cuts. And we now see all those vulnerable people. I think everyone was dodgy recognize it, that you see a lot of vulnerable people on the streets now. And that's the system we got from them so we really need to find this, start a movement, because it can be different. And I thought it's easier for experts to get a home. There are some regulation to make it easy for them to get a home in the neighborhood of the headquarter. The only thing is that they can afford it because their company pays $2 a month. That's the only thing that talks money. I'm afraid. And what we do as a city, we, we try to be a fearless city, since our national government is not, yeah, is doing things different. We look at, yeah, how can we solve it, I want to respond on that but it maybe takes too much away of the team and I hear myself talking a lot now. No problem. You're still saying inspiring things so don't worry. We're running towards the end of the webinar, unfortunately, but I think the webinar so far is a great success so we're really planning on planning some more on local economies. I think there's still room for one more question. Does anyone have a question? I speak English, so I speak English. Yeah, I'll translate. The whole world is the last decade and super market. I know, I like what the people in South-East try and do some economy, but is that real? Yeah, I think this is one for Tom. There's a lot of experience I think with, especially this question as well. The question was, is it a bit of a utopic idea to think that you as a local economy can change the global neoliberal system in which of course when you want something you're going to buy something that's made in China. It's a way a lot cheaper. How can you change those economic processes as a local politician or as a city council? Well, I mean, that's quite a challenge. I mean, it's a challenge that we all face is kind of challenging the global economic system as it is. But I think, you know, Simeon's point about this being a movement and solidarity and starting out with small incremental steps and sharing ideas and showing the power of how these ideas can work in place is the way that we have to start. We have to start somewhere. We have to take small steps to challenge the system that we have. We can't pretend that it's going to end the dominance of neoliberalism overnight. But, you know, with the success of areas like Preston, we've as I was saying in my presentation, Scotland is a national government now that is that is committed to community as a set of economic principles. That feels like quite a big win to me. You know, the fact that in Amsterdam, you're kind of you've adopted donor economics, you're trying to implement community wealth building principles as well. I think these are all wins and we've got to kind of stick together as a movement and celebrate them and publish publicize them as far as we can, you know, be kind of talking about them on social media, contacting journalists, talking to journalists about it, celebrating it, trying to get it into the national media, talking about it on the radio on television, wherever we can. You know, it's through those kind of steps that we can start to incrementally challenge neoliberalism but it's not going to happen overnight and it is and it is a challenge. You had a question. Yes, I'm, I'm thinking about the anchor institutions and the difference perhaps between United Kingdom and the Netherlands. And it's related to the question of the big cities and small villages in the in the land. In Holland, the last 1020 years, the government has diminished the the anchor institutions, they have become more through to the market neoliberal. So I, I have the idea we don't have so much powerful anchor institutions they have a lot of restrictions. And there was a publication. Some weeks ago that the investment of in anchor institutions from public for public services is most in big cities and very much more strict more for very much less in the in the villages and in the in the country. So, I was wondering, perhaps a question for Tom, but also for Simeon, the, the presence of big institutions. And I think England has a national health service which is very powerful and some more institutions from of that, but in Holland we don't have that many anymore. Even the housing corporations don't have the possibilities they had 10 years ago. I think it's I think it's not so not so different in in in England that we have we've we've also seen the erosion of public institutions and the outsourcing of services to the market, which is kind of which has again diminished power what what we what we are seeing in the UK though now is again through the adoption of these progressive ideas is councils starting to in source some of the services again so take services that they had once put out to the market and bring them back under state control you know we're seeing that a lot within social care at the moment so you know I think there is the opportunity to swing the other way. Yeah, I mean we do have the national health service but again there are actually quite a lot restrictions on the national health service that's like we could do a whole other webinar on the on the challenge of trying to bring the national health service into this into this discussion it's not as easy as you might think but they are doing a lot of good stuff and it's getting better, but yeah I think you know it's it's not so dissimilar and I think again it's through the adoption proliferation of new ideas and alternative ideas and challenging old traditional ways of doing things that we can start to kind of to move forward. Thank you. You want to add to that shortly Simeon and because you have experience of course with with getting anchor institutions along in the Netherlands or do you also think it's it's something else in the small cities, small towns. Of course I recognize what you said about the situation in the Netherlands. I think there are more options than we think that you might think a lot of six in my public institutions, they do, they do something with the income, they still have power to do their own thing. For example, what we did it also has to do with power. We should create a situation that in the greens in Europe, the greens in the land become more powerful. What we did when we were in in charts is we stopped the selling of public facilities of public buildings, for example. We were empowered if he was selling all the buildings, the public buildings, but we stopped that. And we want to facilitate all those initiatives in those buildings. So there are options possible, small, sometimes bigger. Thank you. Thanks. Right. The last question that you have your hands raised. Tom elaborate more on the, the answer institutes and are there also a private enterprises as anchored. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's a good question. It's a good question, Fred. I mean, it's, it's actually an area that it's not so advanced at the moment we I think we, you know, it's we're not typically when we've got these groups of anchor institutions together in a locality. It does, it hasn't as yet involved big private institutions coming on board but we don't want to deny the possibility of that happening in the future with with tentatively in some areas we're seeing perhaps football large football clubs thinking about kind of, you know, coming on as, as, as key anchor institutions. But yeah, it's more, I talked about private institutions because I don't want to discount them I think that my hope and ambition is that, again, as this grows that corporate responsibility within bigger private institutions will start to say well, you know what we should be thinking about spending our money in a more progressive way as well we should be thinking about employing people from areas of deprivation, we should think about how we can use our land for the benefit of our community so it's, it is, it's a bit more, a bit more aspirational at the moment we don't necessarily have any private institutions part of those networks at the moment. Thanks, Tom. And that was the last question for tonight. But it doesn't have to be the last question you asked to each other I really encourage you to keep on talking as Simeon said, we have a communication channel within through links for all the council members. Black, please start sharing your policy examples there as well. And, of course, at coming webinars. I hope to organize some more next year. For now, I would like to thank Tom and Simeon for your inspiring talks. I really learned a lot of it, and I've already read a lot about community wealth building so I was glad you had to tell some more about it. I really, I really learned something. Thank everyone else for adding to the discussion and asking great questions. So I hope to see you all at the next webinar. Thanks so much everybody. It's been a real pleasure, real pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.