 My name is Fred Zagwe. I'm the NetSquared Assistant Organizer and also a Frontier. So we wish to welcome you today for an unprofit tech interview from our A-Ball Shannon Mitjela. She will introduce herself and let us know from there, I can just get over the questions by the first and foremost that I may be given a preview intro about herself. Welcome, Shannon. Okay, thank you so much, Fred. I hope I'm clear. So as all of you have heard, my name is Shannon Mujerab. I am an alumni from Strathmore. I just recently cleared from my undergraduate. I did computer science and informatics and computer science, yeah. And prior to that, I was also the chair of our IT Students Association that's back in school. And then in addition, I'm also part of the co-funding team with Fred, the robotic society of Kenya. I've done a lot of, I've been involved with a lot of activities in tech. I've partnered with several companies such as Microsoft. We've been doing some various types of competitions. We've even won some few achievement awards. I'm really passionate about tech and especially now in unprofit. I just recently also got, I'm also a tutor at Kaplura International School. I'm teaching students how to code basically from grade six all the way to high school. Yeah, it's what I enjoy doing and just teaching them how to basically learn and develop coding skills and how to use tech to solve society problems. Yeah, so back to you Fred. Fantastic awesome. That's so good. I also forgot to say maybe we do work together with you in the robotic society of Kenya and that's so fantastic. So that much I do, maybe just go straight to the questions for today's and as usual, we start with the bio and do some few biograph questions. So there'll be no in any order but we hope that it'll be fine first. So maybe we could start for the first question. Who are you and what do you do? I think that one you're once already. I don't know if you should go on that. So maybe let's go on just the second one. What's your original story and how do you become an unprofit techie? I can repeat again. What's your original story? I think everybody has a story and how did you become an unprofit techie? Okay, so I think now from the beginning, my story begins way back in high school because in high school, I remember there was the time we had career fairs and guys, different people from different industries would come and just share their stories and they give you an idea of how it is maybe to be an engineer, a doctor and so on and so forth. But for me, I think what stood out for me is when this lady, I cannot recall very well, but she was a computer scientist herself and she shared her story of how she uses technology to solve all problems and she was speaking about a particular project, helping farmers like better their produce and just monitor things like soil and moisture and just know how much of their, like manure to put and stuff like that and then they kind of yields they got and that's something that transformed their lives from getting maybe few returns to getting more and more profits. So I think her story really stuck with me all throughout high school and I say, this is something that I'd really like to do. I'd really like to impact lives and just see a difference in someone's life. And so I started now from then on, I gained the interest of just knowing and learning more about tech, how it can be used to solve world problems because that's what you kept on reiterating that tech is the only, like it's the tool to solve different types of problems and it can be used in different industries like you're not limited to only being an engineer, it has different applications in the various fields. Yeah, so I think now from then, but that's how it began. Then so first of all, after high school, I came now to campus, I choose to do now there, culture science and informatics because I was really into tech and math and stuff. And then after that, I remember I volunteered at the community outreach program which is like the community service ring of the university where we used to go every week to the less advantaged, maybe to rent homes or prisons as well, just talk to the inmates and see like how they are doing, how the kind of activities they involved in and how we can help in hand. So I think through my various interactions with them, like I could see the kind of challenges they are facing and I just got to put myself in their shoes and just understand the kind of challenges they are facing and I could see like how I asked myself, how can I be able to lend a helping hand? How can I make the difference in their lives like because they are part of our community? So I think now then with a couple of friends, we started now thinking in terms of how with the knowledge and skills you are gaining from us from the development, database design and stuff like that. So how can we be able to? Improve the lives of those around our communities? So I think from then, me and that group of my friends, we started like doing community projects per se and we'd just go live us and talk to the people from the community, if it's maybe prison, what would they need? And for the prison, we had gone to Neyvasha prison and community prison, which is like one of the largest in Kenya. And one major challenge they face is because the inmates themselves, they are very, they have, because most of them actually, they are into, I mean, they've been locked because maybe they fell out into crime because of lack of education. They had, like they didn't have any choice or like they had lost hope. So even prison give them hope because they have a chance and opportunity to study and they'd gotten various partners on who can be able to assist them to, to just get back on track, to learn and develop their skills. So mostly in prison, what they normally learn is the basic eight for four system, just math, English, the STEM sciences and languages. So they, and then they usually have craft like things like furniture doing tailoring. So it's not much into technical skills per se. So that is one thing that we identified as a major challenge for them. And so we're thinking of how we can be able and they also, they kind of computers, they have that, they're really few and they're not as resourceful. So the major challenge was now when getting the number with computers and installing the kind of software when they're still in prison, they can still be able to do something decent and find, provide with their families and just be transformed people. Yeah, so I think we've had, we had done a drive, we did a drive just trying to get a few machines that we can be able to install in the prisons. And then we got like a few, like 10 or so. And then I'm glad to have been part of the team and we also like just tried to get some softwares for the inmates to learn. Yeah, so that was back in 2018, if I'm not wrong. Yeah, just like two, three years back. Yeah, so I think now from then, like once I saw one project that kind of really assist, changed lives of people, you know, those ones who really lost hope. And now after that, they really have hope even after prison, after their sentence is over, even within the prison, they can find something to do and develop their skills like that really. It gave me a heart for the community and just to do things that can be able to benefit my community and change and impact lives. Yeah, so then I think just throughout my campus experience, I've been involved in different projects, even just sharing the IT students Association with the trying to get more partners such as Microsoft Oracle to come in and train mobile students. So they can have that natural feel for just giving back to the community. They use this, they develop their skills and now the kind of solutions that they develop is to just ensure that the community lives, the community becomes better and has the impact aspect of it, not just for the sake of profit, but also for the sake of impact as well. Yeah, so then I think after that, I've been attending various events, conferences and meeting different people, even with you, Fred, I like to, I think even for the robotics society of Kenya, we came together, we founded it because we saw these are niche because the technical, the tech is the way to go. This is how the world will be in the next few years, definitely. And the young generation really needs to be skilled in this and it's a really good niche trying to equip our young learners with these skills so such that by the time they're even old enough, they can be able to be like experts already and develop even more complex and more efficient solutions that can be able to impact their communities differently. Yeah, so even with my current teaching at the international school, so that basically what we're focusing on training young learners so that they can develop skills to come up with their own solutions to come up with their own solutions that can be able to impact the community positively. Yeah, so I think that's my story in brief. Wow, fantastic Shannon. And especially I have loved the work you do in prisons and all the one of the marginalized people in the communities and people tend not tend to go and work in prison. So I'm happy about the technology we're frontiering, we're empowering also education and school. The nice story to follow actually, even there's some other things I wanted, maybe I would develop your skills, you have even talked about everything and shown the correlation between how and how profits work in. So maybe just add steps to software and hardware and maybe the first question could be what software do you use every day? What software do you use every day? I've already talked about Microsoft and other stuff, but maybe you could you maybe let us know about a bit on what kind of software you use every day. Thank you. Okay, so I'd say I use let's say like a variety because it depends really on what I want to achieve. Yeah, cause I do, I personally do a lot of design as well cause I'm also a curriculum content developer. So who my coding class or the young kids I need to to design something that is more visual and appealing to the learners cause they are young and they like things that are having a lot of pictures. So like most of the time I'd be using some divine design softwares, let's say this now, maybe not as technical, something like Canva or Post-Army World, just for the images and even I also use Inkscape as well. I'm also good with the basic design, just how to make images and initial and stuff like that to make more content, the content more appealing and more attractive to the young learners. And then so apart from design softwares I also use cause I also work with different people. We use let's say Microsoft Teams for our communications, sharing documents and we have like a central driver we can be able to update. Then I think now for the more complex projects that I have done, not necessarily geared to towards maybe the learning aspect of it is like, okay, we use GitHub of course just to store our code and to update and we can be able to collaborate with different people depending on the kind of projects that we are doing. So we use definitely a recommending GitHub, it's easy to use and once you get to learn it and you have the gist of it, you can be able to collaborate with various people, share your code and review it as well. Yeah, so I think apart from GitHub and okay, so cause I mostly program with Python, I'm more proficient in Python. So I just, I use Jupyter notebooks for sometimes spider depending. So I find them really easier to use as compared to maybe having an installed, what are we called there? The code the idea is, yeah, the idea is integrated development environment. So I prefer having something that is quite versatile like the code books cause you can be able to code wherever you are, you don't necessarily have to cause it's online, you can access your code online, you don't have to have it already pre-installed directly in your computer. So I prefer the online tools as compared to the offline tools reason being I can be able to access them at any time. I don't necessarily have to have my machine with me and then also for ease of collaboration and just sharing with others so they can be able to review your code and maybe when you're stuck, you can be able to just share and different people can be able to tell you like this is where you've gone wrong, you just need to update this or change this to that and so on and so forth. Yeah, then apart from that, I'd say also for the community cause it's very important as a developer or even as an educational trainer in the side of tech and especially for non-profits, you'd definitely want to put a small into community like this community platforms, like this one just use like meetups for example and there's also one where, I mean a lot of lady communities, women communities that are focused on teaching young girls how to code and just building young women who have a careers in tech, who are bringing their careers in tech. And I think that's where I've really got much to grow and just meet up with different people who are in various areas of tech both in the profit side of tech and also in profit as well. Cause once you see in such community platforms, you can be able like for women in data science also in the WTM, that's the women tech makers, it's by Google. So like just like last thing with them, they usually have, as much as they have these meetup pages as well, this most of the time, WhatsApp groups and this events that they usually advertise it's when you can mostly communicate and collaborate with them. And even before COVID, we used to have like meetups every week. So you discuss and just maybe if you have a project in mind, you'd get to know like what another person is doing, you exchange ideas, you learn from each other and so on and so forth. So most of the time you'd either find using these communities or platforms just to share maybe what the kind of progress I'm in. There's also this one I'm also quite active in. It's called the Asian, the mentorship, the Asian mentorship platform. For that one now, it's like a mix match where you're matched to a mentee cause I also mentor other people who want to have a career in tech and not only in tech as well, but those who also want to venture into their own things I can offer advice. Yeah, cause I have had some good experience in that. So most of the time if I'm not actively coding or preparing content, you'd find me in those platforms, communication platforms trying to mentor people, answering questions and also also research. I do some bit of research in research gate. I try to publish a few articles myself. So I also try to just go through different what different people are doing, what I can add, what I can change as well. So I just like, I like to be informed. I like to know what's happening. So most of the time I depend in such sites as well. And also also for developing content and this simple trying to, cause most of the time my working was trying to relay information and it depends on the kind of audience. So I'd use different kinds of multimedia from video to PowerPoint to all that. So I'm really conversant with such multimedia software when the ones that depend on relaying information, then I think also just with development, the coding tools, the IDEs and the community platforms. Yeah, so I think to say that most of the softwares that I know I'd use on a day to day basis. Yeah. Wow, that's so good. I've already talked about Vita, but I've talked about Python, I've also talked about it, the networking, I also talked about IDEs and Canvas for the kids. And then there's that question which comes in you know about the cost. So that I would like maybe the second question which is coming, maybe tell us about what you understand by open source and out-of-box options. Why have we ever made such kind of choices? Because we talk about Python, Vita and the other stuff, most of them have been about open source. So maybe you can elaborate a bit on open source and let us know why you chose those tools. Thank you. Okay, thank you so much. So basically for open source technology, like community that contributes to the whole source code of it, you don't have to pay for we're using that particular program or application. It's community, it's free. Yeah, and like maybe the premium ones where you have to pay a certain amount maybe for a license or maybe monthly basis, subscription model, all those kinds of applications. So I personally prefer open source like as you've mentioned because most of the tools I use are actually open source. Yeah, I prefer open source because one major reason, of course, it's more versatile, more friendly because you can be able to... It's more flexible in that you can play around with the code itself, with the source code itself and maybe customize it to whatever you want it to do, not necessarily because you know, for those fixed models that you have to pay a subscription or a license for the application, you need to, like it's the develop of the product who has the source code. So you really can't customize it to whatever you'd like it to do. And then the thing with open source as well, you have many, many people are contributing to the source code and making it better and better. So it's more robust. Yeah, you don't necessarily have, you're not forced to just think in a particular line because different features can be added and you can get it, you can do, it's more efficient, more flexible, more robust, you can just borrow things from the different contributors from the community and make a very nice application that you want, a project that you want it to do. And like you can get it more easily and it's more robust, you'll make a more robust application as compared to if you're using a premiered, like a licensed application. So the open source would be better. But then also that there are some applications, they are definitely some applications that are definitely better once you have the license. Well, like for example, because the kind of features that they have. So something like talking about design, something like, let me give an example of now Photoshop, now the premium version, the kind of features that it imposes really differently than what you'd have in a free application or a community application, maybe like in Cape, who they analyze the non-premium versions of the application. So they give you the features you'd find, they are more sophisticated, they can you can have more functionalities with them and they are more optimized as compared to having open source software. So I think now for any developer out there who's looking, asking should I take open source or should I choose the other route to get a license and pay a standard premium, it depends on actually whatever you want to do because there are specific applications which once you choose, like if for example, designing software, you have one that you need to be a premium one, one that is absolutely free. So you'd weigh in what you really want to achieve. So you'd have to do like cost benefit analysis, you see what you want to achieve and the pros and cons of having each application software with either open source or if it's premium version. So if it's something really simple that you want to do, it doesn't involve a lot of complexities, getting features here and there that you'd need maybe a professional to do, you'd just rather go for the open source which works still well and still very efficient and robust but if it's something very specific and very expert or detail oriented, you'd rather go for a premium or paid version of the application because there you'll be able now to achieve your goal and whatever the objective that you want to meet by using that particular application or software. Yeah, so I think it depends, it really depends on the kind of the purpose and the objective and what you really want to achieve on your various projects, but open source software works really well. So maybe just in case you really want to have some certain kind of features that are not available in the open software, then I'd recommend or even we personally go for the licensed versions. Yeah. That's so nice. And now I think you have gave us a pretty good description of what open source is and the merits and merits and merits of using. You know, people sometimes get surprised that they're wondering what is the appropriate time for me to use open source or maybe to buy a commercial or subscribe and that's so good of you. So on following that one, maybe one tool that you think everyone should use every day life but doesn't. These are two which is in your mind, you think that this is a tool, it's each and every one of us should be using but doesn't. So maybe that is like more of stating not even more aberration. But what one tool do you think should everyone use but they don't? Welcome. Okay, okay, thank you. So I think one tool that is essential for everyone whether I take you and then take you is planning tools. Okay, let me just narrow down because for me, I'd say I use something like, okay, for a general person, I'd say something like, like I'm having so many examples and let me try to narrow to one. Okay, so something like Trello, for example, which is like a teams management tool. So it just shows you like how to do list, what you want to do by when it should be achieved. So it's more like planning out your day. So what you want to achieve or just, it's maybe for projects basically but it can apply to basically any place anywhere. Even if one individual who's not really into tech or much like much into that, but will even take a person or a profitor and unprofit tokenization having management, planning management tool is very, very necessary because you know, you cannot just do things, how possibly you really need to plan and you really need to see plan, see what you want to achieve by when and what are the gauges that, like the milestones you want to reach and how you'll be able to gauge how far you've gone. Yeah, so it's very important for everyone to know how to utilize a planning management tool and to know how to be able to pull up because you know what you can't, you cannot evaluate what you cannot be able to like pull up. So you need to have different milestones. So let's say you have the objective here because that's how I think most of this planning management tools are organized. So you have like a to-do list and who is responsible to do it and buy one and then you'd have like milestones on how maybe let's say activity one, you'd be able to know, like these are the steps for you to take, for you to achieve activity one. So once like you have like you're able to see your progress once you've maybe checked or checked out the kind of activities you've done, you've reached out, you've been able to take, you've been able to do finish up activity one. So now you know, you're going to step two, you've got to write the challenges, the merits that the advantages that you've gotten, the benefits, the challenges and how you can maybe try to face them. So like it's more of a mapping out of what you want to do, how you want to achieve them, the kind of challenges you're facing and how to actually just try and solve such challenges like design thinking, you know, just having that, you know, they think also with tech teachers you have to have a structured method of thinking which really is very essential even in everyday life, not necessarily when you're trying to develop an application or teaching how to code. It's just important just to get that structured mind for you to, I mean, structured thinking for you to be able to solve even day-to-day problems and be better at organizing and planning and stuff like that. So you'd be able to focus on your energies on one thing at a particular time and you'd find that you'd finish your things move faster, you'd be more efficient in whatever you do and like you'll have actually more time because you're planned and like just being, you know, just going out on your day and just letting things fall as well. So you really need to work with purpose and with vision. So always keeping track when what you want to achieve, how your progress is and finally like evaluating it after you've already gotten, maybe you've completed a particular project. So like that's the whole essential that I'm planning to whichever maybe because different people have different preferences, maybe not a particular one, maybe like trailer that you can even just use a normal iPhone app. I think most of them have tasks, I am actually called task or to do least something of the sort. So just writing down and because most people use even their phones, you can just use it maybe on your phone, you get a planning up and you can just be able to keep track of whatever you want to do or a vision board. Yeah, like this is what you want to do by when you watch. So then you'll have constant reminders and it will even lead to a better life. It'll be a better manager of yourself and country sources. And you'll just see yourself growing, yeah, growing personally, both professionally and just in different areas. Yeah, so that's one tool I'd recommend everyone to look and have, yeah. Wow, fantastic. It's good now that you've given us some of the tools like now the do-do list, which I think most of us are not aware and how you can work on it. And so good that you have a background in computer science and software computer science is about problem solving. That's what I'll tell my students. That's what I know best definition. You just want to solve a problem and that should be the reason why I'm saying that a problem solving is a kind of fancy skill. And this century, actually, that's what you can tell our learners and that we should have an ability of solving a problem, being an organization, being a school, being in a company, even being the government, and for the most important thing, VIP is solving a problem. So that's why we are coming to solving problems. The next question would be, what do you do when you can't solve a problem, attack problem actually, that's a technology problem. Because I think most people go to Google. So they want to say, if you have resources to solve that issue, but you can't Google. So what do you think you can't solve? What do you do when you can't solve the attack problem? And in your mind, do you know everybody knows if I had to ask a techie person like you now, or maybe the next option be Googling. And maybe when you do Googling, you have to, maybe you need internet, for example, would be like a challenging in the third world country, for example, in Africa. But so you have a problem which is a technology problem and won't solve it. And in your mind, the next thing you could be, let me go to Google, because that's the power of your hands, which can help you. So how could you go that way? Welcome. Okay, okay. Actually from my experience, I'd say most of the tech challenges, maybe when you're developing an application or something of the sort. So the thing is with actually the challenges that you face, most of them, they're actually surprisingly quite simple. It's just something you've really missed out. And let's say like a bug, for example, in your coding, and maybe you just miss a semicolon at the end, or it's just a syntax error, you misspelled a simple word and you've just tried the whole day debugging it and you're not doing anything Monday. It can really get very frustrating. You try, like this is what we had tried in campus, you try posting it in, like in this website, community websites, for example, and then you wait for an answer, and you go try asking a lecture as someone you think it's good, but they're not seeing anything as well. And you know, most of the challenges actually that you face, you're the only one who can actually solve them. So what I'd recommend for like tech related challenges, it's not something, for instance, you know how you're supposed to run a particular code, for example, and then you've done it, according to you, you've done it well, and you just do not understand why it's not working out. Even just the same case for a project, you followed all the steps, you have all the resources, you've done everything right to the latter, but things are just still not working out. So you really, even if you go to Google, try Googling or asking someone who has maybe more expertise, which would be now obviously there, the common thing that most people would do, and you know, you'd still find, ah, it's not yet still working out, because I know this one, even for a fact, you actually, you're the solution to the, you have the solution to the problem you're facing. So what I'd recommend, you just take some time off, because it can be really frustrating just to see, try and solve something that is not being solved as I say. So you just use unconventional ways of solving it. You take some time off, do something very different. For example, let me use a coding example. If you're from coding or just doing something bit technically called seeing it's not working out, you just go do something totally unrelated. You can go cook, sing, dance, whatever, just something to take your mind away from what you're doing. And you know what this does? You know, it's actually a big mix of psychology and they'd actually tell you like once you disengage your mind from that particular thing that you're actually doing, and it was not trying to solve things, you're actually making the neurons or something, like your neurons are becoming stronger when you engage in different activities. And it makes your mind possibly think of more creative solutions that you didn't have been thinking of at that particular time when you were having to solve the problem. So for example, you can maybe go sing and then, you know, once you sing, then there's some lyrics that just kind of like jump starts you in like, did I really try this and the others? So like you'd be coming up with the solutions to their own problems that you are actually facing. Yeah, instead of googling and maybe there's no power, you can't be able to access the net, stuff like that. So it's just, the secret is just in disengaging your mind for a bit and just trying out something that would stimulate your creativity, you know, just going to, you know, but others do sleep and they dream of answers. So it really depends on you as a person, you find whatever relaxes you, whatever comes you down and whatever just, you know, makes stimulates your brain creativity. Yeah, so just thinking in those lines, doing such activities that can be able to disengage you and maybe just drift your imagination into something else. And in that line of thought, you'll actually come up with the answer and it works, it definitely works. It has worked very many times and it's even proven, it's a proven fact. The, yeah, we have the solutions to the problems you face. We just need to allow our minds to think in the line of the solution, not thinking in terms of the problem, but in terms of the solution, finding something that will, because you know, if your mind is just focused on that, you won't be able to solve the same problem that you, to solve the problem you're trying to, to solve the problem with that kind of thinking that first landed you there. So you'd need to adjust your mindset, your thinking and just disengage for a bit and try, just try, try, try to do something very different and engage in various things. You, and you also make sure that you are, both all your senses are like engaged. For example, I just not only speaking, I'm reading a book also try things that combine your different faculties like it's, you can try maybe exercising and exercising singing doing a combination of both that will just make sure all your senses are in use at that particular time so that your mind can really open up and be creative and think in terms of the solutions. And you'll actually be sure to think like something was very simple and you'll have a more relaxed mind by the time you're going actually to solve the problem. Again, you'll know your, your mind will be different to have a different state and you'll actually see things, you'll actually see the solution faster than, yeah, than maybe before if you'd have just stayed wondering what to do, trying to Google with the, with that similar state of mind, you know, to generally make much of a difference but with an adjusted mindset, thinking of fresh mind you'd actually see maybe that kind of mistake if to the spelling error, stuff like that. It's a step you missed in a project, your mind would be more open to eat and you'll actually, yeah, solve it just like that. Yeah, simple. That's very resourceful, very insightful how you can maybe try to tackle a problem and maybe the next challenge could be like you want to introduce maybe a new technology to your organization or maybe you bring a new idea. So the question could be, how do you get your manager outside when it comes to paying attention to technology? You know, people don't like something which I can change very fast and people are accustomed and you know, in a new technology, let's say you talk about AI, you want to bring AI, machine learning technologies and solutions under automation to the organizations, for example, and people, and you know, the fear that if they come, people lose jobs. That's one of the fear. So how do you get your manager outside when it comes to paying attention to technology? Or just like how do you rope in the manager in? Okay, so for that, you know, actually, it's the kind of audience that my target market really plays a lot because you can, it depends also on the setting when you want to introduce maybe a particular technology. For instance, I remember there was a project we were doing and it involved like having automated like automated hand sanitizing something of that sort. Yeah, it was like a door push pad where when you just put your hands there, it was an IoT project. So the UV rays would just like pass through your hand and then like you didn't need to wash hands. So the main aim was sanitation and keeping hands clean due to COVID and stuff like that. And the thing after we had AB just like tried to reach out to different people that they really couldn't see like the need of it. You know, there are some people who would see it immediately and others wouldn't. So even before actually going out there to the market and just trying to tell people about your product and how it can help them, it is for you to actually do an analysis which is very, very important like a market audience analysis. And one thing that I'm really told that I'm really emphasize for people, because they would meet different kinds of people to really understand what you're seeing and they see the importance of it like immediately you really don't have to spend a lot of time. These are people maybe with a background in tech and they've seen the benefits of tech and they are protect. So they did actually be open and I'm impressed your idea with much is because they already have a whole knowledge of it's working and something of the sort. But now here in an instance where you have a particular target audience which is very green and they do not understand maybe the older generation, most of them, they don't see like the need of, why should you automate something and been doing it manually and it's been working. So it's just the same, the end result is kind of the same. So it's for you trying to actually get them to see the point, the kind of benefits they get from it. So it's not much more focusing on the solution on the kind of technology that you're developing but focusing on the pain point that you're trying to solve who you use them. For instance, you'd actually just get it from their point of view. Well, let's say some guys who are maybe in their 60s, 70s and they don't really understand. I'm just people from a non-techy background. They just don't understand at all what are you talking about? So why should we do this and get this better way and it's been working? So why should you bring? Why should we use your product? Why should we embrace this particular technology? So it's getting it from their point of view. You ask them what like, okay, you've been doing this for this particular time. What are the kind of challenges you've been facing? So they tell you ABCD is what you've been facing. Take some bit of time. Some people take long to complete their tasks and just stuff like that. So it's getting it from their perspective. And then once you introduce the technology to them, you'll be speaking from their language you get. So it's cool. As a tech person, when you want to bring your manager out trying to tell your audience about a particular technology or why they should put their money in it, you're essentially bringing it from their particular point of view. So understanding what kind of challenges do they face? What would be better for them? And just bringing out your solution to fit their problems, like the kind of needs that they are facing. So you're trying to solve a pain point and that is essentially why they would need to embrace your technology or you would bring it better, more efficient, more robust. So making it come out of them and then coming from them and then you're just bringing it, telling them now, because you're having maybe this particular procedure a bit slow. If you try this, it will be faster by this amount and you can be able to save this in a particular area. If you try using AI, so this is the kind of insights you'll get. You can double this and that. So it's like bringing it, telling them how that particular technology or whatever your technology you're trying to bring will benefit them. So you're trying to see, so these are the two sides you have to focus on the pain point, what kind of problem it's solving for them and also the gains that they also get. So the value proposition in short. So the value proposition of it, what they'll gain and also the kind of pain relief that particular technology will be solving. And also what I've noticed with most developers, they actually just go flaunting. This is, it's really cool, it's really fast, but people are forgetting that the kind of market or the audience, they wouldn't really, they don't really eat. They're not from a technical background or something of the sort. So they wouldn't appreciate as much or have that excitement that you'd have because you understand how it works. So it's just putting yourself in their shoes. So now like focusing on the user. So it's more like a user-centric design of your application or the kind of technology you're trying to use coming from the point of the user and out there application. Of course, technology is just a tool and we are trying to solve the problems for the people. Not the other way around, yeah. Not forcing the technology on them, but it's just a tool to help in the processes or whatever people do. So the focus should be on the people and then finally it comes to the technology. So doing it in an unconventional way than other most people would do it. So it's more focusing on the user and their needs, their pain points and now how their kind of technology would actually be a benefit to them and how it would solve a particular pain point. And once you are like in agreement, we have to put their money now into it because they see this is something that can really help in solving the kind of problems and they also will be able to benefit from it. That's very indexable. And I love that idea that technology is a tool and you want to help to solve problems. That should be the best approach. And because I think of time and the time process and almost getting the meeting done maybe we have only the last and final question to you and maybe I don't know the approaches that these days when you have maybe a problem with your smartphone and the simplest thing you tell somebody to restart. And I know the kind of phones you had like the Nokia previous phones we didn't have that option of starting. So okay, the smartphone you can start, the computer also the laptop. So the same question is this, what's the last time you fixed something by turning it off and on and on it again? Two options. I don't know if you put it in taxonomy or maybe, okay, two states. You did on and off. So when's the last time you fixed something by turning it off and on again? On and off again. That would be just recently, guys. I think last week on Friday. That's the last, okay, the most recent time I fixed something by turning it on and off. Most of these, it's just moved like a, it was actually my laptop. We think it had a system lag or something. So I just had to restart it again and refresh the whole system. Because most of the time, I think it usually happens to most of the devices, the system can just lag for different reasons or the other and the best solution is actually just restarting it, putting it on and off. Yeah, so I don't know if that answers your question. Of the curve, it's not like limited. You have to go, it's just more practical. It's just something that you have maybe encountered with. So it's something you want to brag. And even if you want to talk about un-pragging, you are maybe very active and say, maybe the other question you were talking about. So even un-pragging can be. So it's just like two states. But that's fantastic of you. And we are so happy of frontiering and taking your time to be with us today. You have taken your time and answered the questions. And maybe before I say anything else, we are maybe the participants here. Maybe they could have maybe one question or two for us. So don't want to stick to ourselves with the script. So maybe they could have one or two questions or maybe even additions. So maybe I think the floor is open for two, three minutes for the participants here. And then we move from there. Thank you. Thank you. I was saying, Alex, maybe Alex doesn't have much to do. And I think maybe you can recreate and amplify on what you mean by what you have net squared and TechSoup. So I think for you, for your case, when you're talking about working there and governmental and profit. So maybe you could, if you're in Kenya and you are consistently registered, you can maybe contact TechSoup. You can maybe do, you can be sharing the reins. So you can get a discounted software on the same. Like you have companies and Microsoft, Zoom, and actually even the meet, the kind of tools you are using here, that courtesy of TechSoup. And net squared, of course, it's a foreign tiered group, like what we have here in net squared. And the good thing is that all of you are members now. So the one thing you may be sharing the message to go. So I think maybe we'll be more proactive next year. And I wish you the best. Maybe this week you're having our Christmas and the next year, up in the year. So we should be take care of because of COVID-19, you know, and that's why even we're doing this stuff on online, because maybe in future we'll be doing it in person. But we also want to stick to ourselves that we can do a virtual meetup. So maybe Shannon, you had the last word you could say. Maybe the participants and then we'll cross the meeting. Thank you. Okay, thank you so much, Red. I'm really honored to be here. I'm really honored to share my experiences as well. And also like to thank the TechSoup and NetSquad. It's been really nice to organize such events for people to learn and grow more. And I'm sure even next year when it's a physical meetup, we'll have more and more people joining in and just sharing the experiences. Because I really believe by sharing and knowledge is when you get to learn even more and you improve even personally. So thank you so much for having me. And I believe by next year we'll be doing much, much more and having more partners as we try to better our communities and impact the lives of the surround us. So thank you so much. You're welcome. And we hope that we have more session next year. Thank you so much. And maybe come at the end of the meeting. You have come to the end of the session today. So we hope have a nice Christmas, happy old days and happy new year. Bye for now. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.