 Okay, we'll get started one way or the other like to welcome everyone this evening to the Planning Commission meeting of town of Essex There is an additional consent agenda item for red clover events temporary site plan So request for temporary site plan approval to operate food trucks and music on a portion of the parking lot and green located at 21 Essex Way and Item number five on our agenda, which is Eric Morris doing businesses David Drive properties that application has been moved to the 28th Are there any other amendments there? So before we get going tonight, I'd like to ask everyone to rise we're going to swear everybody in Because the public comment section is going to be Also incorporate our consent agenda items Do you swear that any testimony you present this evening will be truthful to the best of your abilities? Thank you So just to put this the next item is public comments Public comments is an opportunity if you folks to give us any feedback on items that are not on the agenda or As the case we have tonight are items on our consent agenda So we do have Three items on the consent agenda item consent agenda Item a lot of words Anyone have any comments that they'd like to offer to the Commission and that includes commissioners and staff for consent Yep Correct and it will be scheduled at a different day. I don't know that I assume so but I don't all I have this is application Okay, okay, shall I check in with the zoning folks for Updates or yes, I think I think and Darren and Sharon can help with that quite well. That's my knowledge It's not been completely withdrawn. It's just not going to be a process tonight. Okay. Thank you So so I had a question on the 21 Essex way one Condition number six. I'm wondering where the condition no cannabis shall be permitted on the premises came from Because I could tell you I'm gonna go there Played up a big fatty. It's a good point It's still illegal to Use it in public. So it seems pointless to me to even mention that And and you know edibles are gonna start to become a thing. I just don't it's not something we regulate Just like we don't regulate alcohol. It does feel like it is outside of our purview So I can probably provide some background on that I believe that the conditions some of the conditions related to the special event part of things were pulled from Another consent agenda items. You're not seeing tonight Where that was an issue So that may have not been intended to be included specifically for this Probably came from the police department for another concern. So I don't think there's any issue pulling that condition. All right Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. Not that I know of the only question I had okay. I have a question on is It says that the applicant shall monitor parking during these events and what are they really what are they monitoring it for? And that seems kind of pointless to say that without having requirements of what you're monitoring I believe that they are monitoring to see if further parking is needed then what is anticipated in the Application and based on what public works has agreed to So that the applicant is here and this is public comment section. So maybe we can now ask How do you interpret that condition of monitoring parking? For that because we specifically took a week night to do this on a Thursday and I think the concern from public works might have been what if it's too successful and and We're going to put the cars But on a Thursday and on a Thursday night were relatively quiet there at this point in time And a Friday or Saturday when we have a big movie the place is packed and the parking is adequate and it works and I Don't see that we're ever going to have the issue if we do I think being able to monitor it and try to figure out. What do we do? Do we limit it to a certain point? If that ever becomes a problem that is too successful, that's a great problem I'm looking back at one of the public works comment that just says Parking issues arise applicants should be required to provide an alternate means for parking on site I would almost rather take that language and put that as the condition. Yeah, I get rid of the monitoring That's line 75 Darren Yeah, and just and just insert that as the condition does that fit That I think John is a good catch I think that that puts some precision in there and I don't think these changes rise to the level of taking it off from the Consent so that's just the replacement language for number eight any other questions or comments on any of the consent agenda items I I Because we're offering some language changes if you feel the language is clear enough then we can offer this consent as one item If not, we'll do them a separate It's pretty clear strike one condition replace one with existing language in the staffer and the draft approval letter So I'm comfortable with it I would without additional commentary. I would accept a motion for the consent agenda items So moved With the actually wait a minute. Do we have wait a minute hang on a second? So Item three now that we've come we're moving beyond public comment Yeah, now we're going to the consent agenda. Oh Sorry, are we on the consent agenda we are number three, okay I move we we approve the consent agenda Staff reports as written and changes as noted in our discussion second So just to be clear striking in app in red clover event striking condition six and amending condition eight To strike the words the applicant shall monitor parking during these events replacing it with the language if parking issues arise during an event The applicant will be required to provide alternative means for parking on site or decrease attendance correct Good Good all those in favor of the consent agenda as presented and discussed Motion nay motion carries six zero Who made the motion again? seconded by Dave Clarified by work okay Next item on the agenda is your West cinemas public hearing site plan amendment This is proposed site improvements to increase the capacity to the T-Rex theater Darren yes so This application is mainly to increase the capacity of the T-Rex theater There are a few other site changes that are proposed some of those have been Withdrawn from this application for now they may come back at a future point, but Staffing the applicants and weren't unable to work out some of those issues. So those include Location of a fire pit within the stormwater pond just south of the movie theater building and There was also Using the stormwater pond for ice skating during winter months Public works was opposed to both on the basis that this is a shared stormwater system For which the town actually has an easement for to maintain it. So there were liability and Capacity issue stormwater capacity issues that may we may be able to resolve but the applicant asked to withdraw those portions of from the Application tonight and just go forward with the approval of the increase in capacity of a hundred seats within the T-Rex theater these are Seats that would be removed from the front rows of the theater to make standing room only space so a total of five hundred total 500 person capacity for special events So just removing seats to make that standing room only space along with that the applicants have proposed a Changing room roughly 10 feet by 20 feet with a minor adjustment in order to make room for the sidewalk for live performance for performers who are doing these live events to have a space to change and also the applicants have proposed a turning the Drive behind building two of the outlets into a one-way Drive where there will be additional parking behind building to so I'm going to zoom in here I'm going to zoom in here 44 new spaces are proposed behind this existing outlet building on the south side with a one-way drive connecting from the theater parking lot over towards the extension of Billy Butler Drive here Those are the elements of this application as presented and amended by the or Re-amended by the applicant That's our security staff by the way Come on Darren any of the I'm going just going down through real quickly the conditions that we have based on that the things that we're excluding What are the conditions that we need to modify? So we would need to strike I Don't know if you want to strike condition 11. It's not presented with the application. So it would not be permitted anyway That one we can strike otherwise. I think Pardon if you're taking the fire pit off 1-1-1 any questions for Staff all right Who's presenting? I don't have much to present They're uncovered pretty well. It's fairly straightforward. We have no objections with the Staff report as written or the conditions as written with the modification of the two conditions We just talked about one F and 11 As the road been what is the width of the road, I know the fire chief It remains the same just that we're allowing You know the public to actually travel through that now whereas Obviously now there's the barricade up so they can't go through And I apologize if it's in here and I didn't see it, but is there any intention on on Changing or adding signage to the intersection of the one way to the loop around road since For how many how many years has that been a you know Not nobody's going to be expecting cars to come out of there No, we'll certainly be adding, you know, a one-way sign on one end and do not enter And potentially signage for people coming knowing that there's an actual input Yes, I'm just concerned about about so much traffic for so long has come around without expecting anything to be coming into the Into the into that loop around lane That has me a little concerned. I'm not over. I mean, I think it can be any other utter any other questions or comments And I would take a motion to open the public hearing Those in favor aye opposed public hearing is open 6-0 any questions or comments? To make any questions or comments on this did public works way So I just I want to stay with this road thing so that we can conclude on it I don't care We have a fire chief that says it needs to be 20 feet did public works weigh in on the width of the road Of course did not weigh in on the width of the road specifically Fire chiefs concern was mainly in just being able to set up the Lot of trucks within that 18 foot width space. It's only 18 feet between Where they're gonna? Open it up at the existing drive and this corner right here after this point it opens up to a full 20 foot In fact more than 20 foot width So that's 18 feet now so irrespective. So the fact that we're adding traffic to it has Doesn't they do anything for fire prevention, right? It's 18 now. It'll be 18 after it's along the East side of building to to protect the HVAC equipment there and also to prevent roof overhang collisions These are all sprinkler buildings anyways So in our commentary section and without having to rewrite This the findings that the staff put in there You could add something stating that as of this, you know this this meeting the applicant has pulled the fire pit and the ice rink from consideration The commentary about them is still in there and probably still valid, but that way we have some You know if they come back there's talk about it, but due to due to whatever considerations due to the Right of ways and I think it's good to keep it in there So they there's a desire to have it the questions are already there Ned thoughts No, I think I think my main concern was was the fire chief and if they're keeping fire chief is half Happy he had a few valid questions. I think you know I'm fine with this You feel that I mean the road issue and all that you feel we're good with that You John David, okay Yeah, we close the public area already so take a motion And the one-way road A second, okay tweak it The stipulation changes are we good with removing the 11 and one F Levin was the ice rink and one F is the fire pit, right? It's a striking them. We're still in discussion phase with the two of you made the motion So David you're sitting there typing give it will give him a minute and you can read back what you've written and see if John and John John agree under planning Commission comments during the presentation of the application both staff and the applicant noted that they removed The changes relating to the ice skating rink and fire pit and may bring these forward at the later date The applicant noted that additional signage will be installed to address the change to vehicular and pedestrian traffic Resulting from the increased parking and traffic now flowing between the buildings Now does that call out John you sorry Tom you mentioned something about the road width. Did you mention that? I did not in the findings You because you called out that you want to say that the the Archie was asking, okay, so Commission noted that the road was adequate for the 18 foot width was adequate for fire protection today and Given that the construction is limited construction officer limited Yeah They said we want to note that the road is good today, and it's going to be good tomorrow Somehow before we put the buildings in yeah, do you want to make traffic signage a condition of approval or just finding? I think what I would look for signage on In either direction of approach to the one-way intersection that there actually is one-way traffic What's the what's the what's the loop road called? What's that? Do you mean is there? Is there no name? There's no name so the main the main I Would look for an either either side of the approach or either Is that on the plans Paul yes, we have signage on the plan I can't think of I can't think of phrasing right now, so I think if it's on the plan I think if you're satisfied with the signage on the plan they have to install what's on the plan So I think we'll be okay if you're okay with it But I guess what I was aiming for was not not the one-way sign and so forth, but the but down You know near near the near like the drainage pond or something You know the exit that there is now traffic coming in and out So it's a there's an there's a there's an intersection coming up not just not just a loop You're talking about where you where that corner is yes that yeah I mean I think we're I'm not sure what signage is gonna do there People are so brainwashed that traffic never comes off the left that I think it I'm not sure what you could do on that other than putting a stop sign on But then I think Yeah, that's a tough intersection. Yeah, just because we've got 30 years of never seeing a car come on the left I would leave that as I would I would actually recommend that as a recommendation not a stipulation Because I'm not a traffic. I'm not it. I'm not an engineer and so forth I would recommend that there be a new traffic pattern signage To use your words for a period of time And I think that's probably cheaper than accidents The solar lights with the changing colors well, how would you buy your plans to find that intersection? I would just say at the west end of villain 2 Two new findings for you to consider the Commission noted that the 18-foot roadway with between the buildings is an existing condition That has served the use and the roadway will in fact open up at either end The Commission recommends that the applicant install temporary signage at the intersection of the west end of building 2 to let drivers know About the new traffic entering the intersection Uncomfortable with that It's a joint meeting that we're unaware of So Tom John are you guys comfortable with the word smithing that's been done on the on the Commission Finding second. Yes, that's good. Okay, so we have a we have a motion. It's been seconded and it's been clarified All those in favor I I opposed Motion carries 6-0 moved by Tom seconded by John Okay, it was good next is Minutes from 524 good luck anxious to hear Okay, I take a motion I will be approved the minutes of May 24th Second second by John moved by John seconded by John I Have one one Change that I would like to suggest and that is on line 80. I Would like to Change the word would to shall because I think we were we were specific about that Other than that. I have no other comments on the minutes. Does anyone else question line 145. I Just can't think of the word, but it's Knox box. Is that the right? I think so Dave, okay, isn't that up your alley? Yes, okay, my brain. Yeah, we're not you. We're used to seeing the Supra key box or whatever. Is that a brand name? Yeah, it's like Kleenex versus tissue. I Love Clarifying or one clarifying thing on line 50 I think that's supposed to read these sewer ordinance calculates sewer allocation based on size of the building rather than parking because the rest of the Paragraph there is about sewer allocation Okay, that could be interesting and then At the end of other business line 156 is where it would go I believe the Commission made a motion to approve the letter To be amended by staff and signed by Dusty. That's not included in the minutes. I think it was Motion by Dusty second by either Dave or shoe I can figure out from the recording give it to shoe. Okay. It probably said James How are you gonna tell you to a part? There's any number names you could call me that would probably be appropriate and some inappropriate ones that would be appropriate That's good. So we've made a number any other edits All those in favor of the minutes as moved and amended hi hi Pass six zero Other file folder business, so we do have a couple things to sign Timing on that other one significant enough that we may have to come in during the week Timing on the one to go gymnastics. There's an edit that needed to be made To reflect the same change we made in the minutes tonight. Oh, is it just a one page? It's gonna save is this a one page? We can we can chat about that or another or could you run upstairs for two seconds? Well, let's just let's just leave it at that we can we can address it And at the outside then we might have to we might be requested to come back in prior to the next meeting That's all I can do that. I can do that And so the other item that I wanted to get back to talking about Google Docs try to address some of the I mean we talked about this a while back and John had presented this as a as an option and I think it's a very I Think there we've we've we've made the FTP site work But there are limitations for those of us who use the electronic versioning. There are there are some definitive Limits to FTP And Google Docs is like the next generation so John what is this something? I know Darren you were sort of on board with it at the time and but we needed a little more time so the thing that we need to resolve so we're Staff and the IT department I think are ready to start moving forward on this there were just a couple of unresolved questions about how it would be used So it could function exactly as the FTP does now And have that be open to the public so that other people could view the packet Instead of just seeing what they have on the application on the town website, which is just the plans and the narrative The question is whether the Commission is okay with that whether there may be some documents that are only for the Commission's eyes and not for the public If there were a situation like that we could email something that's confidential or not for Distribution, but it just brings up some of those questions of how we use it and paying attention the other question was We had talked about doing collaborative editing of conditions and findings in real time on the screen because we have the ability to do that With Google Docs, but the question is whether that opens up Possibility of doing that outside of a meeting which would violate open meeting law and what are the controls on that? So I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna make a request and John You can tell me to go fry ice if you'd like, but I'd I'd like to request that that John Coordinate I don't think this is just a staff effort. I know the IT staff and the staff are going to be doing it But we're gonna be the ones using it So I would really like to have representation of the PC in The design of this workflow Because otherwise our usage of it will be missed and we will have to use it in a way that maybe isn't Functionally correct, so I'd really like it if if you guys would be amenable to working having John work with you directly To come up in the design a workflow that works for everybody and it doesn't step outside of the town's IT process But it allows us to integrate and and actually work use it effectively. Absolutely That sounds good and I know on both of your questions there So on the first one, I think we have to decide whether there's anything that we want to be available to public From an IT perspective they can restrict that so they can say Don't allow any public sharing So I think they're gonna look to us to say do we have that need do we need to and you can do it by Folder levels so you for example say we had did want to do it But we want to make it really clear like what we're sharing you could have a folder that says public and only what's in there Is allowed to be seen in the public that could allow them to put like agendas in there what not in that way They only have to upload at one place rather than upload it there and upload it somewhere else and upload it somewhere else to be seen So you can do that and then on The other one the collaboration thing I think we just maybe we'd have to have you you know Someone's I assume someone from staff is gonna be the ultimate owner of what we're editing So you know maybe the procedure is that after a meeting they lock it down to read only you know And so nobody can go in there and change anything and that's you know That's my request would be that you come back with a you and you come back with a proposal Get the questions asked come up with an idea run it and then come back and present a formed Formed workflow I mean as far as as auditing. I mean we would have a policy that says There's no editing of these documents outside of a meeting There's no collaborative if I understand it all the changes would be tracked anyway So we would be able to audit and determine that somebody stepped outside of the rules But time might happen right because nobody the unlocking and locking is a manual process That's not Somebody's gonna be poking around. I mean Not even somebody on the commission right change something well But what we should do is so so I would recommend a couple things when you guys are doing this one is either get legal counsel or a staff input on what the public records statute says if all those documents are public records and can be Gotten through that process then we should just let them all out there But in terms of the documents those documents should be read only even to us And then if you want to have one that's and I my recommendation would be no word documents going out To the public we don't want to ever want to give somebody the opportunity to have the raw document to add it So PDFs only and then if at a meeting you want to unlock it at the meeting and say oh well Dave You're gonna be the one who's gonna type conditions this meeting then you could do an unlock But only at the meeting stop any of that x-party. So so like let's also I'm just saying you gotta be prepared Yes, that's you know, Brett. It's a manual process that will break. Yeah, we'll break So we also have it we also have an existing model I mean is my understanding that the select board is using using this so oh there I'm not sure what level or what extent But my expected I now don't want to go into the detail tonight I mean, that's why I would like to to you guys come back and bring a presentation Put all these things in a pot mix them up and come up with a proposal and let us then chew about the pieces Yeah, the one thing I actually Highlight and do stuff to my dock so my kind of So I can go to spots quickly because they're highlighted so as long as I can continue doing that Yeah, you should be able to use you I mean you would have to download your own copy of it locally Whatever, but you would be able to that'd be fine Well, if it's not a word document Yeah Which you can do a bunch of stuff so anyway This this is all these things and you obviously have heard that there's people who know some of this stuff and Can tweak it so come back with a proposal You guys who are used to working with some of this management document management control and stuff start picking this apart And then let's see if we can roll this out I don't want to I don't want to I mean we can design it But I I don't think we have to reinvent the wheel But it's taken to account, you know the What needs to be in public domain? What needs to be publicly visible and I don't I would potentially disagree that if it's a read-only I don't know that it matters whether they can see a word document or not If our master copy is locked down such that only staff can edit the master copy I I would just debate the need to have it in a particular format But I think your point of having you know a staff be an owner of it So if we want to edit during the meeting it has to be staff that does that that's just security levels that you you know That's a level of security that should be able to be established Yeah, I don't think anybody should edit it You know we bring it in and the one edited version really probably should be in the meeting And if we want to create our own copies, you know the packets up there Well, we pull a copy into our own space and do whatever we want with it Yeah, just out of curiosity is anybody know if the fdps read only right now. I've never tried So we have the same issue today I mean I can put I can Hard to trip over though because you'd have to actually go through the process of uploading a file There've been a few times when I haven't liked the way the staff has Arranged So yes, we can edit now, but I don't know that anybody can I don't know that anybody Yeah And the other pieces do we get do we would we get issued? You know that six town emails so that they have control over those accounts I'm not sure how they would do that for the planning Commission I know for the conservation and trails committee They just what we do is we have a Google account specifically for the conservation and trails committee and I just share the link and Directly email members at the email address that we have And that allows them to get in and look at it and all of those are public because there's not this issue of making motions and Crafting in the way that we have in the planning Commission like as part of one of the questions the town it if we can create the town Emails because if these are going to be reviewed and looked at and so forth It would be more official and more effective to I just think like if somebody Was to leave or get dismissed on whatever for whatever reason they'd have controlled the lockout of the account So they still preserve all the history of what has gone on I but that does that stuff John I think that that some your questions and your knowledge of that is there I mean you I know that you've done this sort of thing before so Go forth be fruitful Productive it no don't multiply Just just you know, I would really like it if you guys could come back with a formed process a workflow that we could look at and and then Find the gaps in that find find what's missing and tweak it. I'll reach out to you Darren It'd be nice if we could do this over the next couple months Just so that it's not something that drags out forever I don't at least a basic framework doesn't have to be implemented but if we can draft something up and and take a look at it poke at it and then See what the uplift is from that That work Easy motion Wait, we've got the airport thing in the airport thing aviation stuff in your pocket Very into your packet I Got it right here if you want to say I can also pull it up So it was interesting the aviation board is saying, you know these municipalities don't have any rules about how the helipads in your town and you know with These those flying car So yeah, it's gonna be some background I So the person at the yeah the executive secretary of the Vermont Transportation Board came to The planning the CCRPC planning advisory committee meeting and said, you know, we're seeing more of these private helipads private landing strips Areas but in areas close to residential development So they wanted to have better guidelines for how to review and approve those or deny such projects at the state level and they looked to Municipalities to say one, what do you do? How would you review this and two? Do you have any regulations that we can borrow from or do you want to put in regulations so that we don't have to regulate it Or you know, if you want additional regulation on top of what the state would do Right now they in the FTP document that I shared we shared with you They have all the rules that exist currently. It's pretty straightforward. They just say there needs to be some sort of municipal approval But if the municipality doesn't regulate it, it's just a we don't have any Jurisdiction over it, so it's approved by right And some of the issues that staff thought of with regard to this are noise and Lights, you know all the typical site review criteria that we look at for anything that's transportation and working hours, you know operation hours some things that might be specific to Air traffic our storage of hazardous fuels Other safety concerns related to you know flight paths and everything but those are regulated by the FAA at the national level, so we don't really have to worry about that And then the other thing that I threw out there is, you know thinking about Energy planning and do we really want to be promoting this sort of thing? Do we want to try and limit it in an area that already has a pretty good transportation system in an airport 20 minutes away, so These are just the questions that we're thinking about and we don't need any formal Input from the Commission. We're just looking for ideas that you might have that we haven't And we're gonna send some feedback to the transportation board with here's how we would review something like this and Like you think about when you're looking at these We could yeah And I've got a neighbor that's got a little ultra-lighty flies around sometimes There may have been one private plane strips somewhere in the very rural area, but it's no longer operational today Shut down it could just be a flat grassy area. That's a landing pad And then there's a question of temporary uses, you know just for the weekend, you know Or once or twice a year versus a regular, you know operation Interesting to see what if I mean not even you know ours obviously, but what do some of the big Urban areas use other areas. What do they have for helipads in cities? So are the considerations for now proximity to to neighbors and so forth I mean it'd be nice if your your rotors had more than you know a few feet to your neighbor's house You may be good enough to set it down, but All right, how would you how would you trigger that trigger trigger that review? So if someone came in right now, we could call it men's specified use and have it go before the zoning board But Otherwise, you know, it's really a administrative call at this point Because every other flight flight item Is not us there are like towers lights flight path all that is is not us So we've never we've never had that as a consideration Well as a transportation mode, I mean the thing that's kicking kicking it into review is things like driveways and roads and How do you get people in a site access exactly now? We're all son talking about site access that has nothing to do with this I'm just trying to figure out what what triggers the review of that particular use or That purpose I just can't imagine exactly what I mean You could just go ahead with any kind of application Go all the way through the whole thing and then land a plane or a helicopter your backyard There's no trigger for it, right? It does say you have to have municipal approval So there's the state board aviation board Has a cheque for municipal approval, but if there's no rules, then there's no process to get approval There's no an option to deny. It's just interesting. I know this is no Okay, well wonder what defines an aviation facility because it says helicopter landing areas and other aviation facilities That might be related to the cannabis question we had I mean, I'm thinking like drone stuff, you know, because in the near future That's gonna become a lot more relevant with drone delivery things Events, you know people, you know, whatever Yeah, exactly, right Yeah All right Well, so we got some ideas to give them Then on that note We are adjourned 6-0 I was in high school and my friends