 This show is dedicated to the honor and the legacy of the late Ruth Bader Ginsburg, truly an icon for equal justice in the eyes of those who sided with her and even those who sided against her like Justice Scalia. We have the honor of having with us today, pending Camille Nelson of the William S. Richardson School of Law of the University of Hawaii, retired judge Sandra Sims, senior attorney and criminal defense expert Bill Harrison, and legal scholar and expert on inequality and incarceration, Rae Dean, Keahi Laulu. And today, I'd like to start us with just a short quote from RBG, I see my advocacy as part of an effort to make the equality principle, everything the founders would have wanted it to be if they weren't held back by the society in which they lived, and particularly the shame of slavery. I don't think my efforts would have succeeded had it not been for the women's movement that was reviving in the United States and more or less all over the world at the time. So rather than try and rehash RBG's life and career, I'd like to pose to each of you your thoughts, your feelings on what she most would have wanted us to be thinking about, caring about, understanding, believing, and acting on at this time. Dean Nelson, want to start us off? Sure. Well, thank you very much for including me. This is my first occasion to be with you all, and I'm really grateful. So thank you for that. One of the things that I think about are the ways in which she would grace and the inclusive notions at their core allowed us to dream about what better world look like. And it's a hard thing sometimes to think what would justice for all look like. Like, if we actually think about that now, what would that look like for everybody? It forces us to think about who's not at the table, whose voices don't carry quite so far. And I think her jurisprudence was crucial to that possibility. And I also want to emphasize the grace and the civility as demonstrated by her friendship, durable, longstanding friendship with Justice Scalia. Because I think one of the things we have to think about, especially now in this moment of, you know, tendencies to cut things down and urging to, you know, cancel and just not listen. And to create this point where we don't even entertain conversation with people with whom we might disagree, that she so profoundly stood for those in ongoing conversations and the possibility of friendship despite difference. And so I want to, I want to lift that up as well as we think about her as a visionary legal activist in some sense as well. Thank you. That's a great place to start. Sandra Radine, Bill. Well Chuck, you know, I think she prided herself. As being a teacher and she talked to students a lot and we had the, you know, the wonderful occasion to have her here at our law school in residence and she clicked with the younger folks and that I think is a big part of what she stood for and what she wanted to do. And as you know, and it's clear that she became an icon being notorious. And I think that that is a special relationship that she had, you know, growing up, you know, in the 60s, we had civics class and we knew some of our judiciary at Supreme Court. You know, if you asked me when I was in school in those days, if I could name Supreme Court just as I would have a hard time being honest with you. But because she was such an icon and because the younger crowd loved her, you know, she brought the Supreme Court into our kids, you know, minds and mindsets and understandings. And I think that's a great thing that she did. And we know about her positions in equality. We know about her positions on race and other positions. But I think that that's a special quality that she brought as a Supreme Court justice. And I don't think that there's too many of our justices in the past that could actually, you could cite for that type of a proposition. Exactly. Sandra, your thoughts? Oh, I'm sorry. I have to agree with you on that. I think that's one of the things that kind of jumps out at me as well. I'm sort of from that generation that's closer to when she started when I began law school, like she had already, you know, made some inroads, but there weren't that many, you know, black law students or, or female law students at my law school as well. And so that was a big, big change that was happening during that time. And it was kind of nice to sort of have these women in front of us that were kind of showing a way that you could imagine. But I think I really am moved by her connection to young people. That too, I've agreed with you on that bill. I can't, I can't imagine, again, growing up seeing someone of that stature that could just, you know, relate to young people in such a way, without it being a family member, you know, your auto uncle or someone who's doing, you know, doing that. I note that that is, I know she spent a lot of time here at our law school, but I think some folks don't realize she actually came to the high school here in Mililani and spoke there as well. So I don't know that certainly in my high school experience, the ability to kind of connect and talk to a Supreme Court justice or even just an Illinois justice, you know, a judge at the school was just something that's totally far-fetched. That made the system seem so far away. And so out of touch, I think one of the things that she may be bringing to us, and certainly by this outpouring that we are seeing of, of affection and care and even just the, you know, the little girls wearing their Superman, superwoman costumes with their collars around shows that they're ready to kind of embrace this whole notion of at least having an inkling of understanding what justice is. And so they can begin to, you know, grow into that and carry that, at least carry that symbol, that knowledge of her being something that represents justice into the future. So I guess I'm big on, I'm thinking our young folks are going to save us. So Is the youth core, is the youth core of our group? What's the, what's the impact for you? What's the greatest force of her legacy for you? I think for me, you know, I've really been reflecting on what makes a true icon. And I think we've this year and most recently, besides RBG, we've lost some huge trailblazers and, you know, what I've been thinking about was the, the content of her character and how she similarly exhibits, I think a level of courage that probably would test the average person and a singleness of focus along with integrity and I think D Nelson talked about her grace and that's, that's not an easy feat for one human being. And I'm sure that, you know, she was up against a lot of people who were not in agreement with her values. And yet she stayed the course. And probably it came with a lot of sacrifice, personal sacrifice that we don't even know about. And so for me, that kind of legacy is something that I'd like to see more of, especially in this day and age, when so many of our leaders and organizations and government structures are just, you know, just destructing right now and those values are being lost. But she's, she was an incredible person. I mean, I just cannot imagine the level of impact that she's made is going to last for decades. If not centuries, you know, that's, that's what we're all hoping. And yeah, I think the emphasis on the courage on the grace calls to mind an old Hemingway quote, which is courage is grace under pressure. If anyone do it. She, 3% of the women in her law school class of the students in her law school class were women. Graduated at the top of her class started in Harvard, finished at Columbia was turned down for a Supreme court clerkship because she was a woman. Hey, and yet earned her way to a Supreme court appointment, which had almost no negative votes in the US Senate, even with her strong liberal political background. So her ability to not only have the courage, but to earn the respect. Yes. Yes. That balance. I think is almost unique. And she is now. The first woman in US history to lie in state. Yes. And one of the things that I want to, as an educator, I want to tee off on top of that is. When I said, you know, the, the sort of activists, activists where. Her work before being appointed to the bench. Demonstrated the excellence of her legal skills. I mean, her chops were unassailable. Yes. So the fact that she was, you know, came through with such support to the highest court of this land. Is underwritten by the fact that she was an exceptionally talented lawyer and advocate. Yes. And I don't want for that to be lost because. It was because of that as well, but she was able to so exceptionally execute on her vision for this country through her jurisprudence. I think that's a really, really important inside team. And it calls to mind. Something about Ruth Bader Ginsburg as a person. That. Was so able. To use that combination of qualities and courage. To earn not only the respect, but the deep affection. Of people like Justice Scalia. Yeah. Who could. Who could be more politically. Opposite than her. And yet what a pairing. And she and her husband, Marty. That story really needs to be told at some point. It's emblematic of the very best. So her relationship skills. Together with all of her academic skills or professional skills. All of the other things. That I think strikes us as a unique combination and model. For all of us. Any age. Any background. It's a universal model. As a person. Yeah, I have to agree with that. I wanted to kind of add to that in terms of her advocacy along with that integrity. Made itself. Like I said, that people who didn't agree with her. Had no qualms. Or no hesitation. To vote to confirm it because they knew that when we understand what the justice system requires. That she brought those skills. And it wasn't about ideology. And I think we've sort of. Got so twisted, I guess. In looking at an ideology as determining factor and what makes a. What makes. For a. An icon in the justice. Not that it's, it's going to be those skills that she brought. To the table to begin with. Similar to what, you know, what we saw when justice. Marshall was confirmed. He brought those same skills and integrity and passion. You know, to the Supreme court. And still maintained. The discipline and the integrity to do what he needed to get done there as well. And so. She is in that same mold. To me. And. Similar to what, you know, what we saw when justice. Marshall was confirmed. And I, and I don't want to say I'm longing for the past, but it's something. That. I think it's important for us to. Really try to regain that sense of. Of how we can be. Have integrity and, and, and be advocates. And still be decent human beings that can respect each other. And my God, we're losing that. And, and it scares me. Sometimes it just, it just, it just does. And so I, I'd like to see if that's, if, if she teaches us. She teaches us many things, but I hope that's one of the things. That really, really begins to come out. In her legacy and the thing that people. Especially our young people remember about her that helps us to be able to, to do that kind of. To be that kind of a society again. And I think that's really important to recognize. We've all heard many times in recent days. That her most fervent wish. Was that her replacement. Be appointed by. Not the next president, but the new president. Yeah. Yeah. She, yeah. Even, even in saying it that way. Reflects. That same kind of. Yeah. Integrity that we talk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that we, we all agreed that she was very frail. The last few years and, but still yet, because she made that statement that she wanted to be here. When the new president came. You believed her, you believed her. And it, you know, it was still shocking that she left just because she was such a force that we really truly believe. That she was going to be here until someone came that she thought would be appropriate to appoint the next. Supreme court justice. That's, that's, that's what makes it so surprising that she left us. Yeah. Yeah. So what can we do to honor. First spirit or legacy. Her wish. Be the best we could be. Right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Be the best we can be in what we're called upon to do. That's certainly one of the things. And to do that with some integrity and, and, and decency, you know, how we handle, how we deal with each other. When we, you know, encounter people that don't agree with us. Or I don't know. Just one thing I can think of. I'm sure there are others that you guys have in mind as well. Yeah. Yeah. I was just going to say, I mean, I mean, obviously she was incredibly brilliant, but there was, there was a level of humility that allowed her even in the face of opposition to still be respectful and have a, have a dignity for fellow human beings. And that's something that I think for me. And a lot of people we need to remember. Because things are not going to always end up as we expect. But that doesn't say that we need to treat the opposing party. With a lack of dignity. Yeah, you know, we need to, to nurture the same qualities that she had and invest that in our students that are coming up and the people are following. You know, she was the perfect role model. She, she fought the good fight. She has counsel of the ACLU, you know, you had to respect her because she appeared before the court. She argued before the court. The Marshalls and the Ginsburgs of the world, you automatically had to respect those individuals because they took on those fights and they took them to the highest courts. You know, we have a lot of academics. We have other government individuals on the court, people who have tried cases, people who have not tried cases. And you just got to give that level of respect to, to people like, you know, RBG because not only did was she that she fight the good fight, but she fought it to that level. That kind of respect just, just has to follow you. And we just got to make sure that our, the new ones coming up understand and appreciate and follow along that and make sure that they, they take the same type of advocacy with them on that road. Yeah, I think those are great points. And, you know, I think about our students and prospective students. And sometimes I hear students or prospective students and women in particular, or people who are dubbed nontraditional candidates. And I think we know what that speaks to that speaks to race and gender and ethnicity and immigration status and religion and class and sexuality and everything that is seen as not the, the attorney from, you know, central casting as it were. She is not who people usually envision as an emblematic US Supreme Court justice, who has had, and I agree with you, will have generational impact. She was on the quieter side, her voice was not this booming razzmatazz right. And I want to signal that because so many times prospective students from nontraditional backgrounds wonder whether the law is for them. And I always say the law is for you, it must be for all of us, because your voice needs to carry. And I want to uplift her in that way as well because I've heard her speak on many occasions quietly and you could hear a pin drop. Everyone was so riveted because of the, the brilliance and the brilliance is also part of her hard work and her legal strategy right I mean when you think about the fact that she strategized with some of the gender equality cases to intentionally have male plaintiffs. I think that is a combination of legal expertise and strategic brilliance and knowing her audience that cannot be underestimated in terms of how we have to think about the possibilities for change. Right, so it's so multifaceted and I think she so perfectly brought much of that together so we can learn from her. I think that's a really important point because it takes us right to where you started the Nelson. What is the struggle that she fought for the hardest and would want us to carry on. And it may be exactly where you started us to struggle for not just equal justice, but equal followed by all of those things that are most important in life equal housing, equal education, equal employment, equal spiritual freedom. How do we do that in a way that most honors her. I think this is a great start. And I know there are so many similar conversations taking place around the country, and I'm sure around the world in what a tremendous, tremendous outpouring bill Sandra reading the discussions are taking. I agree that discussions are taking place. I will you heard one earlier today, I mean we're talking about the same thing it's kind of what's the focus is now having people here to form maybe have not communicated or even shared the thoughts or understood the conversation or understood the issues are at least now at the table asking if nothing else what's going on. What happened here. And that's a start. That's a start. And from there. From there we take it and Dean you've got those students there you, you and Dean Conway are, are putting together a new generation of new, of new attorneys who are going to be approaching things from a very, but not a very but somewhat different, different way than was traditionally done in law school I mean that's been evolving for years now that whole process of what law school is about is is is been has been evolving since we have had more women and more non traditional students become a part of it. It's changing the law. Absolutely. And I will just add to that briefly that you know I like to talk about us as being in the business of building and supporting the leaders of tomorrow. Right, I mean that's what I think lawyers are professional problem solvers and like it or not, many of us are in, ultimately in leadership roles and can make a difference and I think one of the things Chuck you know, the language of one person can make a difference. I mean, look at the difference she has made. Look at the incredible has made for all of us and hope that fires the leaders of tomorrow, the leaders of law towards a better tomorrow. Yeah, I was going to say that you know this conversation here with these three brilliant women just tells you basically what we need, what she has brought to the table and what we need to carry forth so this particular episode with these I think encapsulate what RBG was all about. Bill, I couldn't agree with you more. I think if RBG were here today to paraphrase her, she'd be looking at Camille Sunder and radiant saying that's what I'm talking about. I hope so and I think I think we're on the on the way there I do. I think the key is for us not to forget. I always say remember remember remember. We need to write this into the things that we're writing the poetry, we need to write it into music, we need to put it into art. We need to remember and carry it forward. And that's another really brilliant point because art and culture were such a central part of life and its energy and joy to her. She actually got to play a role non singing in an opera. One of the famous quotes is, if I could have designed it the way I would have really liked with the opportunities. I would have like, I would have been a diva. She was a different. Yes, she was. She wanted to be. Definitely. So as we come into our last minute or two here. Last thoughts. Camille. I just want to also lift up and celebrate with what you talked about with her relationship with her loving husband, and to underscore that surrounding yourself in love and in life with people who are supportive and, and empowering of your professional pursuits particularly towards the end of justice, can only amplify the, the possibilities so I want to lift them both up and recognize his partnership as well in allowing and not allowing but supporting the possibility that was this iconic person, because I think, in some cases that's not always there and the eagle can't soar. So, his letting the eagle soar also is part of the work of great ally ship and great partnership and great love, and I just want to celebrate that. No, it absolutely is and it calls to mind another one of her great quotes. When she was asked what brought her and Marty together is, she said, he was the first man who loved me, because I have a brain. And it meant so much more than that. She was a complete person. Is it can be a not an, not an appendage. In our last minute Sandra bill reading any last thoughts. I would just say that she displayed somebody who was all in. There's no question. And that's what it took for her to make the impact that she did. You know, I mean, I think when you are all in and you have that singleness of focus. It doesn't have to be a whole lot of things that you're focused on, it can be a narrow focus, making a huge impact. I wanted to thank you all for taking the time and to bring us back where we started is her courage, shown the light for us all to fight for equal choice. And in these times, we are barely more than a month away from some of the most important choices in our lives. We all have Ruth fader Ginsburg, and her spirit and her courage and mind, as we make and see those choices. Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you. It's been an honor to be part of this discussion. It really has. And we'll be back in two weeks. Yes.