 Y former president of the Nigerian Bar Association, Mr Olisa Agwakoba, senior advocate of Nigeria, has labelled the country's constitution as illegitimate and responsible for the country's disunity, poverty and other vices. He therefore tasked all presidential candidates in the forthcoming general elections to review their manifestos to include a drastic constitutional review targeted attending multi-dimensional poverty and challenges in Nigeria. According to him, the political economy of Nigeria was extremely fragile, and incidentally, none of the presidential candidates in the 2023 election in their manifestos had attempted to link it all together. For joining us to discuss this is Tunji Abdulamid. He's a legal practitioner. Thank you so much Tunji for joining us. Thank you for having me. Good evening. It's interesting that this is not the first time that we're hearing someone say, oh, the constitution, that document is the core or the basis for all of the problems that we're facing in this country. But I'm curious to know why we continuously point to the constitution. There has been several amendments. In fact, even most recently, we've had another adjustment and amendment to the constitution. But here we are again, with a little back up by saying that this document is the source of all our problems. Do you agree and why do you think so? I think why I agree with him that the foundation of our constitution is not as a K-leg. I want to respect it. I agree with him that it is our problem. It is not our problem. I am one of those people who all believe that constitution, our constitution the way it is today, is not the problem of this country. What I believe is the problem of this country is the enforcement and implementation of the constitution. The way in which the constitution is being enforced is not the constitution itself. And it will be even fair to, at this level, that the constitution is as a legitimate or the problem of our country. Because even if it's not... When I say the foundation as a K-leg, as a K-leg because it was done by a military regime, some people believe that it's not the world we don't represent the true position of the team. Yes, I agree with that. But just like you said earlier, so many amendments have been made on this constitution by people elected by house. So which means we have accepted the constitution as our constitution. In other words, as it is today, we have accepted that this constitution is our benefit from it. Since 1999, we have been using it. So many government have been thrown based on this constitution. What exactly have we, the people benefited from the constitution? I need us to be exact. What you just said is that many governments, yes, so you're talking about leadership. Leadership mostly benefits from the constitution. How about the people? No, we have been relying on this constitution to run the country. The government came in to be based on this constitution. The electoral app was made based on this constitution. Mr Bacobar has gone to the constitution to challenge certain positions based on the constitution. Relyne on the constitution. New which is now saying it's not a legitimate today. That's what I'm saying. We have been using it. We have been relying on it. We have been making efforts. We have been relying on the position of the constitution to ascertain the rights and obligations. Yet we are saying it's illegitimate. If it's illegitimate, why are we relying on it? So in other words, what we are saying in that way is that all the governments in this constitution are not legitimate. That's what we are saying in that way. So as long as I'm concerned, the constitution is not our problem. And if we amend this constitution several times or even do a brand new constitution without ignoring or abandoning this particular one and do a new set of constitution completely, it will behave the way we are behaving. We will see be where we are today. So as long as I'm concerned, it is not in the constitution that says the federal constitution. Are we following it? No. The local government autonomy and the judicial autonomy is the constitution. Are we following it? No. There is a law in the constitution that says finances to belong to the sector to be paid to them. That is not happening. This is not the constitution that says people should be appointed from a certain set of the country. It is not the constitution that says you must be fair to certain categories of people or you must treat certain people fairly or not fairly. It is not in the constitution. So if I, as far as I'm concerned, if you implement the constitution the way it is today, 40% of the position of the constitution will be heard. So as far as I'm concerned, our problem is not the constitution. Our problem is those who implement and import the constitution through their own personal input. Because the line on the constitution was long when it through their purpose. The way it is against them, they ignore the constitution or bring other excuses to do that. Is it the constitution that says so? So as far as I'm concerned, I agree with Lannesih, at Bakuba, that the constitution has a K leg. But having a K leg does not mean it's not proper. You have a K leg that says carry a house. If you are properly, if proper things are done. So as far as I'm concerned, other than inside the constitution, let's look at the kind of people who put in position. Let's look at how we impose our law. There will be judgement for the court. Those who are supposed to impose it will not impose it. Or they will impose it in any way in terms of when it happens to certain people. When it happens to certain people, it will be imposed in any way. So as far as I will blame the constitution for that. I will blame ourselves for that problem, not the constitution. The inequality we are having is not the constitution. There are no where the constitution is set that looks to most people on fairly. That kind of people must be treated in this way. Certain people must be treated in this way. Or people from a certain place or area or whatever to be treated in this manner. There is nothing there in that constitution. It is us that is doing it the way we think we want to do it. And therefore causing problems, not the constitution itself. So if I understand what you just said, you are saying that the document in itself is not a problem. It tells us the people. So when you say us, are you talking about the interpreters of the law? Are you talking about you lawyers? Are you talking about the legislature? Are you talking about government? Or are you saying Nigerians in their entirety were the problem? Nigerians in their entirety. Those in the position of authority. Those who have been appointed to enforce the law, the legislative and the judiciary. Are the people who are not following the provisions of the constitution the way it should be followed? They are the ones interpreting the constitution in the way that they are supposed to do. Tsyndri, I think that we lost the questions to you. It is there that we would reach certain areas differently from differently. So as far as I'm concerned, it is all of us. The followers, those in government and those in the talk, including the nationalistic that is complaining about the constitution. We are all guilty of this problem. Now, I'd like to bring your attention to some of the issues that have been raised about the constitution. Now, Nadeco and ISDS had said some time ago that the 1999 constitution is outdated and illegal. Acintoye, Mwadu, Jang, Kangha, and several other people had raised also the alarm about the fraud against the southern and middle belts which is enshrined in the 1999 constitution as amended. These are prominent Nigerians. The former governor of Plattu State, Jonah Jang, second republic senator, Professor Bandya Acintoye, president general of Bahani's Indibu, chief Nia Mwadu, and several other people had called this particular constitution a fraud against a group of people. Now, the European nation also wasn't left out on this. They had also raised an alarm that the constitution was illegal. And they demanded that it be reviewed. But like I said at the beginning, we've had several amendments to this constitution. Still, we're still pointing to the document. Unfortunately, they did not specifically mention it for the class section. And said this is what the section said, that makes it unfair. They did not make any reference to that. So they are just making general comment based on their own personal. Well, most of these ones who were like... Amended this in Zebrale. But we have amended Zebrale by people appointed by a house, which means we have accepted the document and we are amending it to suit our purposes. So in other words, there is no document in this life. There is no law constitution anywhere in the world that will be perfect. You have to amend it to suit current situation. So if you say it's updated, amend it. It's not about throwing it away. I think that we're having connection issues with you again. Tunji, we're having connection issues with you. I'm hoping that you can hear me now. I can hear you now. Great. So now that you have made a point that we, the people are the problem, where do we start to fix it? Because I like to talk about solutions, not just the problem. Now we're seeing many people appointed to the constitution saying it's a problem. You're saying it's not a problem. It's how it's being interpreted. It's how it's being presented. If we know that the problem is how these laws that are enshrining the constitution are being presented, what needs to be done to make sure that however the constitution is being interpreted, one way or the other benefits all and does not make certain people in certain regions feel like the constitution was crafted to bring them down? I think what we need to do is to all of us to change our attitude. We also see the country as our country, and to think in the best interest of the country and not our personal interest. In other words, we all have to play our role. Whether you're in government or not in government, we have to play our role. In the situation whereby we don't do things the way we've done, and we expect to get the right results, we can't get it. So all of us, not only those in government, we need to all of us to change our attitude. And when we find out... Unfortunately, that freeze has happened. The standard of living or life of people in the country, not just to benefit yourself or to acquire certain profile to yourself. So until we all of us see this possibility of loving our neighbour, thinking about ourselves, doing things that will favour other people. I can't imagine somebody that's given it, that's asked to be in charge of a question of authority, who amassed so much money to himself and keep it somewhere in his personal house. And people around him are suffering and will not do anything to them. And you blame the constitution. You will see a situation whereby the other is made by the courts to say this is what will be done. They will ignore it and they will say it's the constitution. Is that the constitution? You will see a situation whereby the constitution says give money belonging to the judiciary to them directly. Nobody will do it and they will say constitution. You cannot say the welfare and security of the people shall be the primary responsibility of the government. And those government are not giving us that. There is a fundamental principle that says education and all those things must be provided. They are not providing it. And you are saying constitution. So until we all of us who are in this country put Nigeria first, that our personal interests, because until we see it as Nigeria first, think about Nigeria. Don't think about one particular individual. Say he gave me the opportunity. And I must be loyal to him. I must be loyal to my party supreme. Individual is supreme. He's the answer of the media. He's the president. He's the governor. So I must respect him. I must do whatever he wants to do. We will not move forward. We will do things not regarding, in line with law. Not without any fear or faithful. Until we try to do all these things. That's why we don't get it right. If you like, let's amend our function 51 million times. Or let people do anything they want. Nothing will change. So we need all of us to change our attitude. Actitude is the coco here. I just had a conversation now about, you know, making sure that there are checks and balances. Now we obviously have these three arms of government who are supposed to check and balance one another. But if we see that there is a legislature that somewhat is at the whims and caprices of the executive, and then the judiciary as we speak, and we do respect to you, is nothing to write home about. What changes can really be done? Who are who made up of the judiciary? Who made up of the legislature? Who made up of the executive? Nigerians. And that's why I say, if all of us have to say, we want to change Nigeria. We want a better Nigeria. We want a good Nigeria. We will do things in line with law. Until we move. So that won't be fear or faithful. You won't judge cases based on sentiment. You won't vote for people based on sentiment. But if the lead is seeing what the leaders are doing, the lead does want to change, but the leadership is, of course, so powerful and drunk on its power and does not necessarily do anything because you also said they disobey court orders. They pick and choose what to act on. And that's why we are putting it wrong. Those who are leading us are not more than us. We can ask for accountability and maintain our position to get what we want. But in this country, we will see that people are so self-centered. Once they are comforted, once they are benefitted from it, they don't see any problem in it. And that's why we are having the problems. Those who are leading us are not even up to one percent of those who have been there. So if that can be more powerful than us, we will ask all the country there. So if you try to ask them for accountability, transparency and stand on it and say you must do this, they will do that because we have controlled it, because we see them as alpha and non-media and they are as if they are doing us a painful. And then whatever they do, we must accept it. Some people will even tell you, maybe just one hand left, let's just manage this and allow him to do whatever he wants to do. Some people will tell you, maybe just what he consignment. Some people will tell you that. Some people will tell you, I thank him myself, I'm just waiting for my turn. So that is what we are having here in this country. So there is no interest of majority at the end of anybody. The attitude of Alfred Benjamin is the attitude of those in the government. They are just waiting for the opportunity to come. Some people are talking now because there has not been opportunity to be in the position. We know some of the people, when they were on this side, they were foremost critic. They were foremost activist. But today they see everything good in whatever government does. Even though we are complaining, they will justify it. That's what we are having in this country. Finally, I want you to comment on our agencies, government agencies that were set up to deal with these corrupt practices or to beat these leaders into shape. I'm using the word beats loosely here. How well have those agencies done and should we be also looking into the responsibilities of these agencies if they are doing their jobs and if they are not, what needs to be done? Because again, how independent are these agencies to start with? Most of them have independence as an appendage, but in the reality, how really independent are they? I agree with you. They have that independence on paper. In reality, the independence is not there. Most of them act as a good dog or a government attack dog. In other words, whenever anybody that is against the government in power, they go against that person and try to protect the government. And they see themselves as defenders of government and defenders of people. Even in our security agencies, they see themselves as we are working for the government. We are not working for the people. Those in government are the people they are concerned about. And they are not using their own responsibility. That's the way they see things. And that's why you see EICC, ICPC or whatever, when it comes to a low man, learn not in authority, they deal with them and achieve their dealings with something terrorist. But when it comes to people in authority, we don't even hear anything from them and they will see them don't lie low or try to say we are taking our time or we are doing it like that. So we don't have people who work in the interests of the country. We don't have people who work based on the laws on land. They work based on interests, based on people who put them there. Some of them see their partners as a privilege for me to be here and be faithful. But the person who supported me, whatever I'm looking for, I give it to him. And that's how it works. Whether it's in line with law or it's not in line with law, until we all see that look, we must ask whether or not anybody's, there's any body language or there's no body language, do thing in line with the law. Things will work together. UK don't have any constitution and they are living way. There is no problem. So I don't have anything for it because anybody knows that I must do it this way to have to get this result and things are going well. But where we have constitution? Yes, I'm not saying the constitution is perfect. I'm not saying the constitution has no error. I'm not saying the constitution has no baggage or some things that are not okay in it that if we implement it 40% we will get good results with fear of people, without people, we will get good results. But the way we are working it up, if we do brand new constitution from everywhere, we will see where we are in terms of enforcement. Well, I want to say thank you. Tynge Abdulla Mid is a legal practitioner here in Nigeria and we want to appreciate you for being here and having this conversation with us. Thank you for having me. My pleasure. And that's the show tonight. Thank you all for being part of the conversation. Don't forget, the voters register is out. Go to the nearest local government office, nearest to you, especially where you registered and make sure that you check through that register to make sure that your information is correct and intact. And if you have any complaints, revert to the Annick office in that local government area and go pick up your PVC because that's your passport to a new Nigeria. I'm Mary Annick. Don't forget to follow us on all our social media handles and go to our YouTube. That's plus TV Africa and plus TV Africa Lifestyle to catch up on all our programs and you can watch and re-watch. Have a good evening.