 Hey and welcome everybody to an agile manifesto future spective I'm gonna just literally give you a 30 second quick intro and then I'm gonna pass you into our first session of the day Which is going to be the future spective expert panel discussion with Brian Ray Jurgen Jeff and Giles These slides that are moving forward, but big happy birthday from from everybody just for the audience We've got some amazing audience out there We've got events running all of February So this just shows you per region where those events are a huge global Interest in in the agile 20 reflect festival and everybody who's here today That's you guys on the map So literally this afternoon I've taken what it was on LinkedIn and I push that out Into a whole stack of different countries and a different person So if you see yourself on this list, you know, feel free to add on the chat and say hi I'm on or I'm listening We've got a whole stack. We've got four pages of attendees here and obviously some of those names You're probably quite familiar with and of course you can see the panel who have all got their webcams on at the moment so After the next slide, we're gonna see some demographics to give you an idea of the type of people who are attending this event today So this in number one position is the scrum masters So hopefully we're pitching to the right type of people. Like I said, this is a snapshot of 120 countries which are attending this session today So some interesting companies that are doing some great manager level and director and staff level So with that, I'm gonna hand over to the first session of the day Hosted by gels Lindsay who's got an amazing expert panel to actually go off and start this festival off with a bang So if you want to connect any to any of them, there's gonna be QR scouts codes on each each one of the pages and With that, I'm going to actually now pass on to On to Giles to to intro for the the panel discussion Fantastic look Jonathan great intro and thanks very much everybody For obviously coming along to this anniversary event. I mean, we've got to be saying right now firstly Happy birthday to agile and we know it happened obviously this weekend 20 years ago. So this is a fantastic event for everybody to be here enjoying And it is with great pleasure that we have got a an awesome audience Here joining us and we've got a great panel. I think Jonathan if you can let Jeff back in I think he is still Just trying has some access problems to join us and get in with so if you don't mind just trying to see if you can get him to Become a panelist. I will wait a couple of seconds And see whether he can join in but otherwise, you know, I want to really say thank you very much firstly to obviously Jurgen Ray and Brian for coming along joining us today and being part of what's essentially event part one The past and future 20 years reflection Jeff good to have you back sir Great or awesome. Well, look, thank you very much. I'm gonna kick start with Some initial questions to get the sort of the the minds and juices going this afternoon this evening this morning wherever our GPS is in the world right now and As we do can each of you please just give a very quick sort of 30 seconds info about who you are Why you're here representing and obviously share that with the audience Especially as it's still growing and getting larger and larger every second So my first intro question for our past and future 20 years reflection is How has agile evolved in the last 20 years? Since the signing of that original manifesto and I don't know Brian if you want to kick us off because you were there And sort of helped launch that conversation, but I think I'm gonna start with you if that's okay and tell the world who you are Okay, I'm Brian Merrick. I was Sort of accidentally invited to the agile manifesto meeting So I can't claim a huge amount of authority. I was invited to be the token tester. I was a Person who is known for a style of testing that was very similar to agile called context driven testing and So Martin Fowler Twisted somebody's arm and got me invited. I no longer really do testing But I noticed that Lisa Crispin is on the call She's the woman whose picture was with a donkey She and Janet Gregory are now the people that I consider the the go-to people for agile testing So the question was what what has changed in the last 20 years? well an interesting thing about the attendees at the first agile conference was that they were Overwhelmingly programmers they were a Surprising number of them including me had experience with the small talk language Small talk is a particular very flexible language and Out of small talk there arose the software patterns movement and Agile arose out of software patterns Patterns have sort of died in a useful way though the idea is still good, but That's how we got to agile and I think that the big difference that's happened in the last 20 years is That the programmers Have kind of been shuffled out of the picture Agile has become a management style Rather than a sort of grassroots bubble-up programming style of Development so what's been lost is the actual fingers-on keyboards producing code Fantastic Brian, thanks very much for that. I'm gonna hand over next in sequence ray. Hi ray. Hi Well, I'm ray arrell. I've been in the industry. I think far too long. I'm a hardware person I'm a systems engineer grew up in semiconductor and semiconductor manufacturing has been my start of all of all of this and Getting involved with agile at least in the early days after this, you know the software people came in and and I think did a really good job of kind of Taking some of the goodness of what we do as engineers and kind of culminated it together into the manifesto and Thinking about it in the way of how can we reconnect with management and how can we reconnect with our customers and do value? When I fell into it, I was doing RTL code for state machine design and other things and so Hardware which is really funny if you talk to hardware of people they typically will say well those are the software people over here and these are the hardware people over here but reality is we're all writing software and so Taking those design patterns that Brian was talking about and starting to apply those to a hardware equation actually started to work really Well, we started to see quality go up. We started to see Productivity go up for usability go up all of those things and so I think in the early days Yeah, that technical revolution that he was talking about was was very much there We could do our work more effectively. I wouldn't say that the programmers got pushed out as much as the tent got bigger and Unfortunately when the tent got bigger, I think that at especially at the conferences and events The new shiny penny suddenly took center stage and some of it would be more of the soft-scale portions of it and all the rest And I think that in that first 20 years as we've we've went through We've seen now going from like I'm saying from the hardware side over to finance over to defense over to government There's just a whole bunch of people trying to adopt the mindset and coming up with new methods and I think that that's that's been really a big plus and I would like the programmers by the way to rehab the voice, you know to Kind of bring them back into the fold and not be the step-chart children in the sides over there anymore And that would be great Right fantastic fantastic intro. Thank you very much Obviously being here as we get into some further conversations. I'm gonna hand over to Jurgen next Jurgen great to have you here with us as well Thanks very much Over to you intro and sort of give us an understanding Alright, sure. Well, my name is Jurgen Apollo. I'm calling in from Rotterdam in the Netherlands And my role has been to focus on the non-programming aspects of agile So yes, I have seen that it emerged as something specifically Applicable to to programming actually I am a software engineer by heart So I did extreme programming and that stuff in in 2000 plus But I ended up in management positions because my team basically Begged our managers to promote me away because I was I sucked so badly at the programming And I did a better job as a team leader apparently but at the principles remain the same And I think we can compliment the the people who were there at snowbird For for coming up with the values and the principles that turned out to be pretty universal Across disciplines and and and professions and they focused of course given their backgrounds on the programming part And they came up with practices that applies to programming But hey feedback cycles is not something that only applies to programming it applies to design it applies to management It applies to Marketing whatsoever. So yes, as Ray said the tent got bigger other people said hey that also applies to my job I don't happen to be a programmer, but I would love to to Help and now not block things because that's another thing the programmers notes that they couldn't do Everything they wanted because they needed other parts of the company to change as well They could they they they want to do things differently But they were confronted with with annual performance appraisals and traditional marketing pipelines, etc So they were like hey you guys should also do something different so that we can do the way Program the way we want They basically invited the others into the tent as far as I concerned And I think that's a good thing. So now we end up with business agility as sort of an umbrella term I suppose to to encapsulate everything and I would be sad if the programmer said well, it's not our tent anymore I Don't want to see them leave for sure. They should have an important room in an important stage in the tent but Let's cherish that other people wanted to be in as well because To be honest when you offer a product or a service to a customer the programming part is a is a part of it But it's not everything there is a lot before and after and around in the programming That is quite crucial in order to offer that great experience to a customer so let's be a bit holistic about it and Yeah, I think that's it's good that we that we are where we are now Awesome Jürgen, thank you very much and lots of points. I agree coming from a software engineering background myself as well So awesome. Thanks Jeff over to you. Please give us a little intro and Give us your thoughts on the question Thank you. Yeah, I have no idea why I'm here And I'm the old one out in a way because I never have been and almost certainly never will be a programmer And I do have a certificate somewhere that says I can program in visual basic, but you don't want me on your team trust me So I have no background there and what's been interesting for me So 2001 I was a project manager, but of a software team But had no idea what they were doing and so just kind of have to trust their expertise really I couldn't tell them what to do and had no desire to tell them what to do So it sort of fit quite nicely to my my lack of knowledge and expertise And so I think that's why I grasped onto it and in a way So I think the original question was around, you know, how's it changed over 20 years? And so I probably don't have as much attachment to the original manifesto in a way because none I didn't create it so In a way, it hasn't changed at all because the manifesto hasn't changed at all And that is still to this day, the closest you can get to a definition of what agile is in many ways So it kind of hasn't changed, but people talking about the tent expanding and being much more relevant to lots more Industries, domains, roles, subjects, I just think is fantastic. I've still seen people Using the principles and the values in all sorts of different circumstances So the diversity has just increased tremendously, I would say over the last 20 years And I think what's been interesting when you look back, but perhaps interesting wouldn't be the word I'd use at the moment When you were there is just the number of sort of I'll say healthy conflicts along the way and we sort of hinted at that already and you know software developers feel like they've been pushed out And that's that's a perspective and that that that sense of baffled whether it's Scrum and Kanban or whether it's business agile and software These these tensions have been necessary and they've shown a great deal of passion and they've been necessary to see it expand There's Jurgen saying that to encompass the whole when we're talking about product development customer customer value At the time it feels quite painful Whatever tension it is, but at the end of it you think oh, yeah, we needed that tension to grow Fantastic look this these are all great points and hopefully this will help lead into the the next part of the conversation And I'm gonna leave it open for whoever then wants to come in and organically pass it on To the next member of our expert panel So one of the questions that have been banded around a lot recently in Unlinked in on social media Twitter other things Which myself and the organizing committee have you know been wrestling with and hearing and seeing what people wanted to Answer and how they wanted to answer this particular question But it has sort of agile whether we want to capital layer small layer agility, whatever we want to do That's it had its moment in terms of improving organizations And uh, if not, um, you know what other areas for improvement are there I can do it first. I'll I'll dive in The features here, but it's you know in it's not distributed equally If you look at a lot of what's going on in agile development today I see you know teams in india getting empowered now Very similar to where a decade ago, you know somewhere in the u.s Somebody was getting empowered by using agile same same with south africa or other other countries It's not all equal. So when we think about agile and agile development or agile management or all of the new things that we've got For some people it's new For them still and it's interesting because i've been working with the agile alliance The last couple of years and watching the conference and seeing who the attendees are and those things and 60% new first exposure to agile and you know, it's like We're 20 years in and yet we're still getting this group of people who've never Known what this what this is or how to work in this way. So I think that there's still growth that's going on um, as far as the last part about shifting And I I've seen so much writing about every year. It's the first of the year and agile's jump the shark agile is You know next you know, this is going to be something beyond agile or we try to go rename it by Calling it business agility or something else But it still comes down to that we've been struggling for 20 years To live up to the principles that are in the agile manifesto Every team that I come and have exposure to I asked them Are those principles read them and ask the question? Are they easy or hard to do in your company context and notoriously? More than half of the 12 or or maybe three of them are easy for them to do and the rest are still hard So I still think we have lots of work that needs to be done as well And I know you're getting what you know, I'll point to you because you've been doing a lot in the management space Um And I think that's been helping but I'm gonna I'm gonna turn it over to you and get your impression on it Yeah, I I I recently reflected on that on on the socials or I do quite a bit of communication Um, I compared it with the word cyber We have to distinguish the word from from the meaning and I am Of an age that I remember that we talked about cyber stuff like cyberspace and cyber things and that was oh that was pretty cool Nobody uses the word cyber anymore only old people use the word cyber But it is everywhere. We are in cyber space right now basically and we and we don't have the word for it anymore Um, and the young ones have no idea what you're talking about When you use the word cyber, so I think it's the same with agile This this has the word agile had his day. Well as a word, maybe At some point we're not going to use it anymore, but I don't think we're going to see feedback cycles lengthening again For anytime soon In fact, they will keep shortening for a while. I'm I'm I'm pretty sure But maybe we will stop calling it agile and who cares? I don't care personally If we come up with other terms and and and I'm also been quite fascinated by other movements such as design thinking and lean startup and and what not That had very very similar insights from From very different angles very different perspectives Feedback cycles have been around since Since the time immemorial We should not pretend that we were the ones in the agile community coming up with the idea that we should deliver things faster It made total sense to have that insight in the software world and yes, we pulled other people in But I'm okay with letting go of the term And just seeing this as it's a cliche, but the new normal that we live in Nowadays so the values and principles remain very much the same The practices change over time because the way we do agile now. It's Very different from how we did that 20 20 years ago. So, um, yeah, goodbye agile welcome New world Basically that agile has helped to introduce Who else I I guess having slotted myself in as as something of the the programmer advocate and Troublemaker, I guess I might as well lean into that and embrace it Uh around 2002 I Joined or I just went for a few days to visit a a well functioning early scrum team and talked to the various people there and They were loving it and particularly I remember the product donor Said to me that you know being a product donor Is way way harder than the way I used to do this stuff But it's so great and I can't see why anyone else Well, I I can't see why anyone would want to develop software any other way So that was 2002 Uh, I don't remember the year Exactly, but maybe around 2009 10 I was one of uh a vast flood of rent a consultants who were brought in to spread scrum throughout the enterprise and I was talking To one of the people there And he said and this is burned in my brain At least my job doesn't suck as much as it used to So you have in the period of eight or so short years Going from something that was quite frankly Liberatory to something that is oh, well, I guess it's better Uh, and that was actually the time when I decided I need to switch out of agile consulting but I think we want to I think it's important to Maybe it's important. Maybe it's important to understand that The original agile Caught on because there were a bunch of people who were Suffering to the extent that you know well paid people who sit in an office all day can suffer But they were working in a situation that they knew was wrong and painful and they had An idea based on actual experiences of something that would work better And That's been lost the sense that this is about I think that's been lost the sense that this is about making people happier Um agile caught on Because ward cunningham had the great idea to put up agile manifesto.org with Principles and and values and the really clever idea was that he He had the idea to let people Sign the manifesto and there was a Absolute flood of people say yes. Yes. I want this. I want this. I want this And I guess to some extent I think that has gone away and I think that's too bad I would disagree with that it's gone away I think other people have the right to be happier as well Not only the programmers but also the project managers and the line managers and the hr people and the marketers etc Because why would they not have suffered to a similar extent as the as the programmers? So let's let's praise them for being among the first to realize that things can be done differently But i'm not trying to plug my book here, but I wrote the book managing for happiness That seems to be doing quite well. So other people Try to be happier in their jobs as as well. So I don't see it as having gone away I just see it as the need has been realized Or we have realized the need in other areas as well. So it's okay that managers are happy I don't mind that I think it is notable that agile has become To a much greater extent than it used to a dirty word Among soft in software development teams. That's sad Well, I was I was gonna not to step over on this but I've had people tell me that they've been scrummed Using it as a verb that they've been it's been inflicted upon them and I and every time I've dug into those situations I discovered that they weren't practicing the mindset. They weren't practicing agile They were actually just using a waterfall mindset or a fixed mindset and not You know, they're just not doing it right and if it hurts as they say if it if it hurts you're doing it wrong And that's been a case for certain things and I did mean to step over you Jeff I'm sure Jeff has an opinion on that Come on Jeff Well, I think the one the one group that hasn't really been mentioned say thyrus customers have have a right to be happy as well And I was chatting to mike cone last week and he said if he'd have been in the agile Manifesto creation room, it would have been worse the manifesto would have been worse for his involvement because he would have lobbied against the duplication of the word customer But actually he's glad that it was duplicated because customers are really important in this and that's our primary motivation and the idea of If it hurts, you're doing it wrong. I do disagree with that one because actually Change does hurt doing something differently does hurt Changing your habits is really uncomfortable for people and actually we need to get past that discomfort So yeah, I get there's a difference between discomfort and hurt But equally I think for for a lot of the people that I'm working with Developers customers everyone has to sort of put themselves out there and risk feeling uncomfortable While they get used to a different way of working and it's really scary and Yeah, I think from trying to come back to to the idea that software developers Kind of feel that agile is a dirty word. I can get that. I absolutely can And it is a shame like like Juergen says And anyone that's had agile done to them Is it hasn't experienced agile? I think that that's something we could probably all agree on right? Um, and is that does that make agile a dirty thing? I don't I don't think so So is agile going away in a way? I hope it does so the the kind of things that we talked about it should just not be a Thing anymore. It's just kind of the way that we do things in certain circumstances. That's normal and I think And I think we're finding that you know Juergen saying we're perhaps we're feeling old now and I am starting to feel old People starts. Well, why why would what where did this come from? Why would you not have done this? You know But they haven't experienced the situation that that we were in 20 years ago when it was very difficult to have Cycle times like that and feedback loops like that So I'll stop waffling there and let somebody else come in But but I wanted to just say on that one Jeff when you say about the customer and the customer focus And and I see that what with the intent was we were going to originally connect Engineers closer to the customer And what I found was it you know because I used to work for a very big, you know fortune 100 company And the hardest thing that we ever had was is don't let the engineers in the room with the customer Because they're going to make and this literally I heard this from the marketing people and the sales people is They're going to go promise something and they're not going to deliver it and this lack of trust that kept those pools away in the bigger companies and I don't think we we got there yet with agile to be able to to have a real legitimate conversation between the customer and The developers and connecting those two some companies have done really good jobs I'm really impressed with like microsoft where if you go post a question about a microsoft thing that it's a developer who's answering you you know and that that to me is like To the metal to where you need to do and what we've seen is is with companies when they do that They're actually more successful You know, they suddenly Take And I think market forces they take time right but the companies that are successful by employing those tactics will eventually win out I think I think one of the things that I've suffered with over my 20 years is over empathy in a way and so when you when you paint that picture of not Being able to trust developers to be in the same room with the customer I can I can picture a scenario where I can empathize with the person saying that because the developers haven't got the tools the experience the confidence to actually have those conversations Safely and not feel that they're going to be over ruled or what have you and it takes time to get us all to that point And we've we've made such progress in that not everywhere admittedly, but we've made such progress In that and I think that should be applauded by everyone who's taken that that step forward Yeah, glass is half full not half empty as far as I'm concerned and two things came to mind you said that that People have been scrummed and agile has been done to them well for me That's just proof that the non programmers need to learn what is expected from them as well In order to have the organization be successful. So it cannot be a programmer only thing Because then the rest of the organization is going to keep behaving badly In an unagile way And second I like the idea of Well, sometimes changes got got to start with hurting I often share the story of me A few years ago when I started running. I did it really really badly and everything hurt I I discovered muscles. I didn't even know existed in my body, but it was motivation for me to learn Okay, how do I do this thing better because this is not working for me But I had to go through that pain in order to be motivated to learn how to Do do this better breathing techniques and posture and all that stuff So, you're sure but some people just run in and and they're oh, we're we're we're we're doing stand-up meetings We're scrumming. Yay, and then nothing works Um, and then they figure out. Okay. This is this is painful. Maybe we should go to a conference or get a decent coach Or something that's good. You you made the first couple of steps. You're on the rail. Let's Let's praise them Well, I'm gonna step in because there's been some fantastic points raised by everybody and I I do think for those of us all of us here Have certainly been on that journey for for the the 20 years that we are celebrating here tonight Then one of the things we've got to be mindful of as it says happy birthday up here on screen right now We've got to be mindful of we we ran an event last night a small event last night And we actually discovered that a lot of the community the cohort that came along to actually listen Had we're discovering agile that day, you know, this was something that they they wanted to find out about, you know We can't presume that necessarily absolutely everybody here has been on a 20-year journey or a 15-year journey or 10-year journey with this And somehow they've been through the the peaks and the troughs as well and discovered successes in organizations and failures resistance from the the leadership or the middle management or even from the the teams themselves So, you know in trying to you know Inspire those people that are coming on to that journey now themselves possibly the growth mindset Which is actually underpinning what we want to do with success in our organizations You know, what does the future hold for this word agile this way of working this mindset this set of philosophy and values What does this hold and possibly even you know for the next 20 years? Where do you think we would likely be in the next 20 years? Do you think it's evolved simply beyond the conversation? We are having now that it just becomes a de facto part of the way of working the norm We've removed bureaucracy commander control micro management in time in terms of that sort of organizational structure Or do you think it's actually going to commercialize even further? You know, I recently had the chance of chatting with Dave Snowden at a previous conference Who said that's it. No, it's dead, you know Move on, you know, and we all love Dave for the the the great points he raises But I just wonder how do we inspire that also that next generation? What do we think possibly the the next period 5 10 even 20 years is going to look like and I'm going to pass that back to the panel Job go ahead I'd say Maybe We're looking at it slightly wrong there and just take the chance to say well How can the next generation inspire us? Because we're kind of assuming that that just because we've gone through that journey so far. We know what the next step is Um, but actually we've got our own biases and we're probably still blinkered by them But people coming in with a fresh mindset. Okay, they might be tempted to make the same mistakes and we can we can Warm them of of history But equally I'd be encouraged to say look look at this blank slate Where would you go next? Thanks for that I think the um I like that happiness of customers was mentioned because I think we can Use that as our north star to see where we're going if we keep that in mind We made one step by replacing project with products. That was good But it's a first we need to replace product with experience Jugi of your examples I have been Lived with some companies that offered me great products, but it was sheer impossible just to get the invoice For the thing that I paid for Or I was quite satisfied with the product, but customer servers sucked bottomless pit of of disaster basically The other way Around can also be the case. There are some products that are so-so But I stick to them because I love the company I love the service I love everything about it and I will forgive them for not having the best programmers in the world because The holistic experience for me is still really Really good one So I think we need to be responsible for the entire experience that customers have we we do not offer Just bits and and and atoms we create happiness molecules in their brains That's what we're responsible for and that includes the entire organization So I think we have quite a way to go and that's as I said, I I love design thinking and other methods and frameworks and movements that have something to say in that in that area Yeah To add to that the one thing is someone new again and being involved You know the freshness of some novelty that One of you when you go, oh, that's exactly the way that we should be approaching this Those failings you're right for most of us who've been in agile for about 20 years We don't we don't have that, you know, let's go look through the eyes of Of a newbie in that particular perspective But but what I think is is that there there's new stuff that's coming out all the time And we're too focused on the recipes rather than the craft And specifically What I want to see happen at least for the the new people getting involved that yes There are those frameworks and there's those pieces and they're great training wills But you need to grow past those and become a chef And not everyone needs to be chefs, but you know, but Become a way of being able to look at the pieces that you have in front of you And and be able to build something new and share that because one of the things I thought on the manifesto was done really well that we found away You know, and that's what they they opened it up with that I found a way And we want to help others to do it and I thought that was the thing that when ward published the The manifesto out not just the signature portion of it is But people like you brian and others went off and started helping people to go do that and this community has This this whole festival is about giving back and helping because we've been through the trenches So I I think getting back to where we're going in the next, you know realm of all of this It's not the commercialization of agile agile isn't the destination building a better product as is the destination It's this community of practice getting together and being Where I can share an idea at a conference or are on a phone call or just being able to share things out and then that idea, you know that the the infection of the idea because ideas are infectious they jump from brain to brain that that infection It just literally gets other people to come up with new ideas and then share those ideas with us And then I think that was what jeff was saying was I really want to hear about new ideas. I'm tired of hearing about scrum personally I know for people it's new for them. That's good, but I want to hear about the new stuff I want to hear about the cool things somebody did with the pattern You know, anyway Who's next brian? over to you, uh, I I predict that sometime within the next 20 years. I will die Other than that, I have no predictions for the future There's my predictions for the future have not actually Been very accurate in the past and I see no reason to think they're gonna get any better now I I want to do some of the what would you add to the manifesto because I have a whole talk on that Good stuff Okay, well, I'm gonna give I'm gonna so a slight follow-on from what we're just talking about I love jeff's Point about how do we get those people starting their journey to inspire us? But I'm gonna ask, you know, if you could give one sort of piece of advice To someone who is here today this evening this afternoon this morning wherever we are in the world And we're a very small world here today Now what advice would that be to help them start that journey? What what advice what organic information piece of information would you sort of share with them? Um, and I get that in from jeff's point We would want to get something in return as well from them But what would you guys give them to help them start their journey? And again anyone who's got a point, please step in So so my my thing would be this and Please read the manifesto Because most people who start their journey Skip by that really quick and really do the assessment when you're looking at the principles Ask yourself the question again, like I said earlier, what is easy and hard to do? And if you take a you know, just create a list And then say that this is the hardest thing to go change in in in my universe in my world And it's going to take months and you know big projects to go often go do Duck on that thing first because we tend to go work on the biggest ugliest things as engineers first Versus go to the bottom of the list of the easiest thing that you can change today to make your life a little bit better And my take is work on that one first change that thing Have a party, you know celebrate that you got that done and then roll on to the next Easier thing to go fix Based on that that would be my advice Nice nice advice really. Thank you very much jeff hand up I saw Some of the questions coming just coming up on my screen So one of them stuck in my head and it's one that I don't have an answer to but it's one I'm going to link here, which was how well do we think universities are teaching agile And I don't know about anybody else, but I don't I don't know the answer to that right But I would like to I think it's relevant to the question you've asked jobs for me And if I I think if universities are doing their job well, they're teaching people to be curious They're teaching people to respect the past but create the future with curiosity I think that's what I would be encouraging people to do whether they're at university or not is Learn other people's lessons because you can avoid some serious pain that way But that doesn't mean that what they did is going to be right for you And and so having that healthy respect for the past but a healthy bravery for creating something new Would be my number one message for anybody Brilliant fantastic jeff. Thanks very much guys. We've got obviously yogan and brian uh Two things uh since most everybody is doing some sort of scrum Ken schwaeber wrote an obscure but I What I think or at least thought at the time it's been a long time was a really good book about scrum And it was basically Stories About how people in particular scrum teams acted in exemplary ways Uh, like for example, I have often used the story of the scrum master and the furniture police As an example of what a scrum master would be So I won't tell the story of the scrum master and the furniture police So that somebody will have to buy the book to get it. I wish I could remember the name of the book I will bounce off and and find it and put it in some place where people can see it The second thing is One of the nice things in Kent Beck's First edition of his book on extreme programming was he had a A little graph that showed how the 10 or 12 or whatever core practices of extreme programming Cooked up together and supported each other and I liked that Because it made a big It there was a big emphasis on how some of these practices are difficult And that you need more self-discipline To do agile Then you need for conventional software development And that you have to invent Ways tools practices habits that force self-discipline On you when you would ordinarily be weak So the idea that I guess self-discipline is the first thing and Think about what it is about your working environment that encourages you to be disciplined Versus not contestant Brian great point Yeah, then um I would like to summarize it with ash moria's quote. I love the problem not the solution I have seen for the last 20 years far too much focus on solutions on people building stuff Without having full understanding of what problem they are actually solving The first thing I would tell people forget all the agile practices Go and check out jobs to be done theory What is the actual job that the customer is trying to do? They ask you for a drill the famous example, but they don't want a drill They don't want a hole in the wall. They want to put a picture on the wall. That's what they like They want to decorate their room. That's the job that you're helping them out with now A hole in the wall is one possible solution in order to get there But there are other avenues of getting there the customer asks you for a bridge But that's not that's a solution what they actually want is they want to get on the other side of the river Because they're traveling so That's far too little understanding still in my opinion in the agile community. What is the job? There is a lot of focus on Creating a backlog and lots of user storage and the customer wants this and the customer wants that All right, maybe Maybe do not listen to the customer for a while I have been in a situation that listened to customers far too much and just did whatever they asked But the customer had no clue because they the customer things in terms of solutions The customer finds it very hard to think in terms of what problem do they actually have And that should be more of our focus. What problem are we trying to solve for them? because The customer often has difficulty even describing it or realizing it but we need to observe we need to investigate And analyze and then when we see the real problem We could have very different solutions that are simpler more effective and more successful and the customer says Oh my god, you had you really nailed it. That's not exactly not what I asked, but that's that's it We are a long way from there in my opinion Okay, well We have got now some a lot of questions as we can see there's there's 59 questions that have come in from our community Already this evening and of course we are coming back to a proper full-on open mic Q&A session at the end of the evening afternoon morning Once we've had Laura come and share her amazing talk and so all of us will be back again But if there's a question here that you see on screen that you would like to answer We would like to just get one at a time You know choose a question answer it and hopefully then the team behind the scenes will refresh So another one can come up and the next person can choose one question answer it And we'll move on round in a sort of pattern like that So are there any questions there that any of the expert panel would like to provide an answer for? Brian really wants to talk about changes to the agile manifesto. So I want to I want to hear that as well Yeah, go Brian go I'm opening up the presentation that I made Called agile 10 years later but It keeps stealing the go-to meeting keeps stealing my screen And I don't know if I can remember all of them Well, I don't know that this is going to work I'll Try to remember there were I think five new ones. I add a discipline might have been one of them I know that one of them was Ease working with ease I even made a posters For that that I used to give out to clients That said work with ease or yeah work with ease My wife Does surgery? And or she used to before she retired She used to occasionally do surgery and she would describe working with a Really good surgical team Where she is just Talking through what she's thinking of and she makes this gesture that She'll just reach out her hand and the proper instrument will Appear as if by magic in her hand and then The same movement she Plunge it is it into the abdomen of a cow because she did surgery on cows And one of the things I noticed about successful agile teams Was that feeling of ease? and I think it's an important I don't know practice is Find the things that are rough and feel like friction in The process of doing the work and getting rid of those that just seemed to be a practice of good teams um, I had joy in there for Jurgen But he's already covered that one of the Other ones that I thought was interesting was that Good agile teams seem to be reactive rather than proactive Instead of planning to get something done they and performing it they Work on their skill at reacting to surprise And and being able to gracefully change their course Whether that course is what the product should do or how the code should be created and so forth um And though there were others but those are the two I can remember and I really like the work with ease one because I that seems to be one of those things that People don't think is important, but is actually very important If I remember any others I'll Try it Brian, thank you. Thank you very much Obviously, uh, Jeff ray Jurgen Are there any other questions that you've either seen flashing up on screen or up here now That you would like to drop into and just provide a short answer We've got about seven eight minutes left before we hand over to our second event of the evening After Well, I actually I just wanted to briefly respond add on to brian with it Is reactive mode one the thing that has bugged me for 20 years was this responding to change In the agile manifesto. Why not causing the change? Because if you're always responding to change, you're never the leader in an industry Elon musk is now the richest man in the world and he did not respond to change He caused the change that others had to respond to that's innovation So I think we have to move from agile to innovation at certain times Be disruptive and cause the change that others will have to scramble to To adapt to so that's what I would love to change about the manifesto By definition there Jurgen there can only be a small proportion of people who are causing the change If everyone else is scrambling after it Yeah, yeah It's it's something that we that's and I think that's the beauty for me of this is that Yeah, you can apply this to innovation and you can apply this to maintenance You can apply these principles to to different ways of working and whatever circumstances you find yourselves in Um the question that that I would have picked out although I can't see anymore Was something to do with how do you stop? Um zombie scrum or bastardizing agile? And I wouldn't really put my energy into that Um personally, I think even zombie scrum has its place. It's all part of learning. It's all part of Do the organizations that do it well do it better The organizations that don't either fail because they don't do it well or they learn very quickly to do it better Um, so I wouldn't suggest I try and try and over empathize like I said and say well everyone is trying to do their best right now No one's trying to be a failure. No one's trying to do things badly um And so, you know appreciate the efforts they're making Give them the benefit of the doubt and be there to catch them and help them get up and go again So don't try and stop it because that implies a judgment to me Right To add to to what you all have said I agree with with all of it Is that there's a couple of ideas that are in the manifesto that are not really Explored one is we we put that term of um, we want to have sustainability in development And sustainability is it can be a big word. It's you know, you can pack a lot into that But I'd like to explore and as we go forward of what does that mean? Is it just You know Scrum isn't here or any of the agile methods are not here to torture anybody It should be a sustainable pace of development that we can go create But to Juergen's point as well is is just that if you look at the learning fast and the empathy Equation of learning fast Sometimes what we learn we don't like But we learn it and the question of how we pivot and how we move on from an idea to a new idea And let that organic, you know in back to Dave Snowden and his what he talks about in the connevin model Which is you know when we're dealing with Great degrees of complexities and guess what humans are complex creatures We we need more empathy To be added into this and then we just need to learn and pivot and do things in a way that people just don't get all wrapped around the axle about Deliverates and deadlines and all of these other things that I hear that when you actually push on somebody and say Why is that delivery date there? And they can't answer it for you other than it's just a date somebody made up That you know, let's let's be a little bit more. We know the story is going to unfold If we put energy towards it, it's going to unfold. Let's put the empathy into the equation and let's Let's use that in a way that we could move forward more effectively together than just We haven't been I think Right. I mean fantastic pointer for us to I think start our wrap up of our panel discussion um Thank you to everybody who's obviously Adding the questions as I mentioned Our sort of fourth and final part of today's event is the the big panel q&a discussion at the end So, um, please do keep the questions coming because we will try and get through as many as possible and also get our guests to help choose the questions that they think they want to answer and share with you guys as the community so Back to brian's piece with the stories. Funny. We um, actually the community the committee team here today we're thinking about getting The community and speakers and guests and other angiolistas around the world to help Create an ebook if you like of stories of the things where it has worked well Where it hasn't worked well in organizations to share those real world learnings We've already sort of started the the Organizing and everything else and it would be great obviously if we can follow up with you all and obviously our Future speakers as well to take part in that to add your sort of view of the snapshots at the 20 year mark And what we've been through that the successes the failures the highs the lows and everything else again I think it has a great reflection to help inspire that next generation who are coming on behind us Brian I hope in 20 years. You're not dead. Uh, it would be it would be nice if that wasn't the case I'd rather be dead than old Well, look guys, um, I personally want to say thank you very much for an absolutely incredible panel discussion I know some of you guys are coming up next as well in terms of the TEDx lightning talks And hopefully as we've seen we've been sharing some of the demographics where all of our amazing Audience are coming along to from the world today And I'm sure Jonathan will be able to give us an update when he comes on in a minute Knowing where all of the the people of the community are turning up and watching us from today So gents, thank you very much Major appreciation major shout outs to obviously Ray Brian, Jeff and Jürgen. Thanks guys And obviously we'll see you later at the panel discussion All right, so now without further ado, it's great that we are about to enter into our second part today I'm going to invite my good friend and colleague and partner Jonathan to come back on