 Okay, it's Monday. It's the 12 o'clock rock. I'm Jay Fidel, and this is Stink Tech. Welcome to Midnight in Brussels. Our show today is called Europe Reacts to the Trump-Russian Controversy. We're going to talk about Europe evolving on policy involving Russia, NATO, nationalism, and nuclear deterrence. Our guest for the show, of course, our major contributor from Europe is Gary Kondekar. Welcome to the show, Gary. Again, we love to have you here. Thank you. Pleasure to be on again and again. So, you know, the big story in the U.S. and people are, you know, sort of, they're sort of attracted involuntarily to reading the news in the middle of the night and finding out what our new president is doing because we can never anticipate. We only know that he manipulates the media. We only know that he makes all these mistakes and we're not sure if they're intentional or unintentional. He's got people around him that scare us. So, you know, it's like a reality show, actually, but it has real-world effect, and I believe it has effect in Europe. Do you agree? Yes. It created quite a stir. One of the biggest cornerstones of Western civilization has been the transatlantic partnership for decades and decades. And today the U.S. is emerging as it's set to Europe, as seen from Europe. So President Trump has vocally supported, disintegration of Europe, has supported various Brexit movements, and this actually goes against U.S. policy since the end of the Second World War. That is the United Europe, which is the safest bet, you know. And it's also now emerged as it's perceived as a big security, but every day, I mean, every day is a scandal almost in the U.S. and European leaders don't know really how to react. There's a lot of turbulence globally and the U.S. has been seen as the harbinger of global security. It's a security provider for the world or as it's seen from Europe. But with the rule, the receiving rule of the U.S., most Europeans are worried about what is going to happen to global politics, what is going to happen to stability, and they're now thinking about assuming a greater role, being more integrated, and how to go forward. Yeah. Well, what kind of reaction, not only in terms of the astonishment, but in terms of the governmental reaction and the change in the balance between left and right in Europe, what effect does the travel ban have? And again, there's another travel ban where he banned visitors from six countries, not seven. He let Iraq off the hook for reasons I'm not entirely clear on, and he gave it until March 16th, so people would have a chance to prepare and plan. But we have repeated travel bans, and it's very clear that he's willful about this. What kind of effect does this have in Europe? Yes. Well, on the first side of it, in terms of counterterrorism, so when you want to tackle radical terrorism, any religious radical terrorism, the biggest mistake that Trump has made is to link it to Islam, and American security analysts have, and from the institutions themselves, they criticize this move, saying that it poses a bigger threat than not linking it. Europe agreed with the US position that you don't link the jihadist terrorism to Islam because it mainstreams it. It creates a more turbulent movement within the religion, perhaps, and leads to more radicalization when an entire religion is being seen as criminalized. So Europe has been against, anyway, the linking of Islam and terrorism, but the ban of these six countries, which have not contributed even one terrorist incident in the US, is seen as odd. And many here question why not a ban on Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, which have caused the majority of foreign terrorist attacks in the US, sorry, led by foreigners. There have been some national that have been affected by the travel ban, some European national who hold dual citizenship. And this has been considered as a very serious issue. So as you know, for many, many years, there has been visa free travel between the US and Europe. Last week, I believe, the European Parliament has moved a proposal to suspend this travel ban, if not, we draw it completely. So there might not be visa free travel between the US and Europe, which is incredible. Yeah, well, it's interesting that Europe is, you know, more liberal about it than we are, even though Europe has suffered more greatly than we have. I think he's taking a page out of the European experience and making it sound like it has happened in the US and he's less liberal than Europe is. We interviewed a Swedish girl the other day from Sweden and she was very upset that Sweden was not accepting migrants. She thought that Germany was doing the right thing by accepting lots of migrants and she was not happy with Sweden, her own country. So what you have is sort of a moral shift, a shift to morality in Europe, even despite the fact that there have been terrorist attacks. And in the US, we have a shift away from that because of Trump, I think. He's elicited that and fomented that and now we're folding in on ourselves. This is not leadership. No, I agree with you. There are many, many people in Europe. You know, the media also plays a role here in portraying migrants as how they are portrayed, basically, the people they interview and there's been a lot of negativity surrounding this refugee humanitarian crisis. There are a lot of people here which I interact with myself who are so open to receiving migrants. They've even opened up their own homes to them and I personally know them. On the other hand, I do see a few who've bought into this skeptical attitude of migrants are terrorists, they're bad, they rape the women. The incidents that have happened, and there have been a few, quite a few, where migrants who come recently into Europe have been perpetrating violent attacks against women, in particular. And that doesn't help their cause either. So it's, you know, it's We're in a funny place right now. Yeah, it's a balance and maybe a tipping point. Yeah, nobody seeming to be helping the situation. But this is what I've maintained from a long time is that, well, the US had a very strategic attitude towards getting migrants from where their migrants come, the kind of migrants they want. Europe has largely received refugees from some of the most rural areas. So I'm talking about North Africa, some Morocco, Egypt, rural areas really. And when this happens, it's a major cultural clash. Unless you've been growing up here for many generations, it is still a cultural clash. Yes. And Europe has been at the most liberal end, while these communities have been at the most conservative end. And you can't expect an overnight integration. So integration does take time. Yes. You know, I wanted to move on to the very interesting talk that's happening in Europe about forming, and it's again, a reaction to Trump, forming a joint European nuclear organization. If Trump goes through his threat to withdraw American protection. This is this is interesting and a little scary, that Europe for the lack of protection by the US would organize its own nuclear organization. And I guess stockpiled weapons to that effect. What have you heard about that? What does it mean? Yes, there have been analysts here calling the research community calling for it for a long time, to build a European army to have a common nuclear secure Europe based on French nuclear arsenal, which would then be shared and sponsored by a joint fund. But these have been proposals and they're unlikely to go ahead. For many reasons, some of the countries are neutral. Excuse me, can you, sorry. Yes, we can hear you. Sorry, excuse me. Yeah. Well, let's take a break. We're about that time in the program. We take a one minute break. That's a gallery condo car. She talking to us late at night from Brussels to report on things things in Europe. And there's lots of things in Europe which interestingly track what Donald Trump is doing in Washington. We'll be right back. Thank you for watching Think Tech. I'm Grace Chang, the new host for Global Connections. You can find me here live every Thursday at 1pm, where we'll be talking to people around the islands or visiting the islands who are connected in various aspects of global affairs. So please tune in and aloha and thanks for watching. Okay, I'm here with Brett Overgaard of the Faculty of the School of Journalism and the Department of Communications at UH Minoa. We've had a number of shows we have a movable feast going on. And we talk about journalism, we talk about language, we talk about communication in general, and we talk about the effect of that on the country and on individual people. Brett, it's so good to be able to discuss this with you in our movable feast. Oh, it's my pleasure. This is a great opportunity. You'll have to come back again and again. Okay, deal. That's the deal. Brett Overgaard. I'm Jay Fidel. We care about everything. Thanks. Hey, we're back. We're live. We're here with Galerie Kondekar. She joins us by Skype from Brussels and we learn about what's happening in Europe. And now we're examining what is happening in Europe in response to things that Donald Trump is doing in Washington. And one of the things that's happening is there has been talked by some leaders about forming a joint European nuclear deterrent organization on the assumption that Trump will withdraw American protection from Europe and NATO. So where does that all go? You indicated before we before we left for the break that you didn't think it was going to happen? No, there won't be any European army for for the foreseeable future. Most European leaders, especially Germany, remain against it. Germany, of course, for historical reasons does not want an armed European army, let's say, and it does not want to lead it. They're very sensitive about that, aren't they? They were remarks made by recipient Erdogan in Turkey over the weekend, making making a comparison of the Germans to the Nazis back when. And wow, the Germans reacted very badly to that. They do not like to go back to that time. They don't want to be they don't want to be criticized for being like Nazis. None of them are actually the Germans have. Well, to be to listen, give the facts in many countries in Europe who who bring up the German past, let's say, especially the Greeks with the Greek crisis when it was that it speaks. And some of the Greeks still do because they're unhappy with Germany. And, you know, they want to draw parallels to Germany. And Erdogan is no different, I guess. Politically, and technically, it would not be very feasible because, well, European budgets are on on the decline. Anyways, austerity has become the norm almost in Europe, even though Europe has has been growing recently. None of these countries have really emerged from the crisis still. And contributing, making major contributions to defense will not be on the cards. This is what this has been one of the main issues that Trump has been pushing forward with Europe is for them to spend more money into the NATO military budget. And that is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future. Interesting. So that leaves it in Trump's court. Well, thinking of courts, there's there's been a report that the International Court of Justice in the Hague is hearing a case brought by the country of Ukraine against Russia. I find it very interesting. And in that case, Ukraine is claiming that accusing Moscow of illegally annexing Crimea and illicitly funding separatist rebels rebels in in the Ukraine. And a very interesting, maybe a precedent setting legal experience in the court. What have you heard about that one? Well, this is really recent news. And what I can say is that, of course, this was illegal, most of the countries in the world have agreed that is illegal, except for some of the BRICS countries, actually, who supported Russia. Now, it's an unprecedented case, as you say, what will be the power of the International Court of Justice to impose this decision on Russia? It's, we still have to wait and see. But especially how the case goes down, you can already say that, you know, Ukraine will be receiving European support, as they did support Philippines when it when it went against China in the court of first instance court, I believe, in the Hague. But it's too early days to comment on this. Okay. But you know, there is a really chilling parallel between what happened in the South China Seas and what happened in Ukraine. And the fact that the International Court of Justice Tribunal got involved in the case of the China experience has essentially ignored the ruling. And I imagine that Russia would likewise ignore a ruling, you know, that their takeover was illegal. But it all, it all, sorry, go ahead. No, they will, of course, as you spot on, they are going to ignore the ruling. Nothing's happened to China. China is building territory in those tiny islands in the South China Seas. Politically, it might create some impact. Russia has been dealing under the sanctions effect, which might continue. But that has also affected most European countries because Russia is the top supplier of fuels. But I don't think legally it might change anything. Crimea is not going back to Ukraine. Yeah, I don't believe that. Well, more and more, it seems that Russia is emerging and Putin is emerging as a rogue. Not caring much about what people and the, you know, the international community think of what he's doing and taking very aggressive steps. And, you know, and then, of course, the issue with Trump, which could, which could be Trump's Achilles heel, is his relationship with China and the relationship of his staff, campaign staff and current staff with Russia. I'm sorry. And and the concern there is that he may have an illicit relationship with them, that he's not willing to talk about things that might be wrong or criminal, that will embarrass him greatly or worse. And I wonder how people in Europe feel about that. Because more and more, it appears, he did do things that were wrong. And more and more, this this threatens his presidency. But what do the people in Europe feel about his relationship with Russia? It's unnerving. So many countries in Europe, Finland, Sweden, Norway, even all the Baltic states fear, really fear a Russian invasion. And this is a palpable threat when you go east from Brussels. Even Poland is afraid that Russia might invade them. Russia has been the biggest security threat to Eastern Europe. And it still is. And while the US has been the biggest guarantor of security for East, Central and Eastern Europe, until now, it's a complete overnight shift, which countries have not been prepared for. And now they've really been left in a quandary. So those countries like Greece, for example, who've had a cordial relationship with Russia might not be that much in danger, let's say, or in political turmoil. But for countries like Sweden, for instance, or Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, all the Baltic states, all the Central and Eastern countries, it is an existential threat. And that's how their policies are going to be shaped now, especially in Europe, inside the EU. Well, this has got to affect the way they see the United States, who was their protector before, and is now leaving them in the lurch. And I, you know, I think that probably changes the world order, at least as far as Europe is concerned, and diplomatic relations, perceptions on the street and in government and diplomatic community have got a change because of what he's doing. Don't you think? Well, it's, no, I put it, most of the community is not seeming to take term statements so credibly. You see what I mean? Because they change from one day to another. If you see the statements on the Palestine-Israel issue, before he was elected, he said that he would not support a two-state solution, while very recently he said he would support anything that both parties want, which is basically a two-state solution. So it's hard to take anything credibly. Also, his statements on NATO and then when the American defense chiefs come to Brussels, they have been assuring the countries of support, despite they've been assuring of US security guarantee to Europe. So it's, you won't see a very strong statement from European leaders because they're still trying to make sense of what is happening. Yes, yes, and so are we. But you know, one thing is clear that there was manipulation or attempted manipulation of the American election in November by the Russians. And what I found very interesting and a good reminder of the reality of that is a remark made by Boris Johnson in Britain. And he made a statement, he wanted to make it clear to Russia that they should, quote, keep their nose out and, quote, of European elections. And I guess drawing a parallel if the Russians would attempt to manipulate an election in the US, why not do that in Europe? Has there been any evidence that they have done that or would do that in Europe? They are doing that. If you notice, Russia has been very active, of course, in the French elections. So Marine Le Pen, the leader of the far right party from National, her party received about 10 million euros from the Russian government. Oh, my goodness. Here it will does in the Netherlands as well. He is, he's covertly receiving funds from Russia as well. So Russia has been funding these far right movements across. And there are possible news that they've even provided funds to the Brexit. Those who are those who wish to leave, leave the EU. They funded Brexit. Right movements because the United Europe is not in Russia's interest. The Marine Le Pen from National case is documented. The others, there is speculation, but there are credible links that Russia has been funding these movements across Europe. Oh, that's shocking. I wasn't aware of that. But I think we have to follow that closely. It is one thing for a non non democratic state. And I consider Russia a non democratic state to try to manipulate political events in democratic states. That's very scary. So are you writing anything to these? Go ahead. Sorry. I mean, just to give another example, I think it was 2008. Oh, I don't remember the year, but very recently, in the last decade itself, there was a cyber attack by Russia on Estonia. Estonia is one of the most IT advanced countries. So basically, to give you an example, people can file their taxes, their annual taxes in 3.5 minutes. So it's that advanced and people work with one card which they use for transport, medical, everything. And the Russian cyber attack on Estonia was in a similar direction, you know, but it was a large security threat. So Russia has been very much present in European countries meddling in their affairs. And it's no surprise for us here, probably. Yeah. Well, it's it's really awful. And I think we need to follow it. We need to follow it with you in two weeks time. We learned so much from you, Gary. That's Gary Kondekar. And we are at the end of our show now. We have enjoyed bringing it to you and talking with her as always. And I look forward to our next contact with you, Gary. It's been great to me too. Thank you. Aloha. Take care.