 Okay. Well, welcome to this hearing of the local historic district commission. The purpose of our commission is to aid property owners in the town and preserving and protecting the distinctive characteristics and architecture of the buildings and places significant to the history of our town pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 extended by chapter two of the acts of 2023. This meeting will be conducted by a remote means members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so by a zoom or by telephone. In person attendance of members of the public will be permitted, but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time by a technological means. A hyperlink to the hearing will be posted on the town's online calendar. We're here to talk about four, uh, certificates that have been requested. And those are 38 Gray Street, 17 Sealy Street, 216 Lincoln Avenue and 47 to 49 Fearing Street. So we'll start with the 38 Gray Street, uh, 14 B to 18 Grace Electrical Services. Is anyone here from the audience who is here to speak to this? If so, you could raise your hand. See any hands? I know the electrician I'd emailed last week and asked if they could, if they could attend in person. And I said, no, it's, it's, uh, through zoom, um, I thought they were going to try to attend, but I don't see anyone here yet. Well, this seems fairly straightforward. This is a request to install eight driveway lights, meter box and associated improvements. Yeah, I mean, based on what they submitted, the lights are only about a foot tall. And, you know, they'll be equally spaced along the length of the driveway. The only, you know, question I had was, you know, a meter box, like how big and, you know, is it, is it something that's going to be too visible? Other than that, it seems pretty straightforward. Had they included, included the meter box in their designs? No. And then I wasn't clear. The diagrams, visuals? There wasn't a lot. I can share my screen in a minute. And while you're getting out, the question would be about the meter box. It sounds that you have a meter box if it was a whole separate service. Is this a separate service or is it part of an existing service, in which case you had thought it would be a circuit off a panel board for a meter that was already installed as far as the building is concerned? Yeah. Though my only question was that on the diagram the electrician provided, it just said 200 amp meter, you know, next to the lights. And so it wasn't clear if it was a new box or if it was something that was being, you know, if it was our existing. And so that hasn't been clarified. Did you ask him to clarify that? Yes. We could, well, the lights, how many of them are there? And I, I guess I looked at this a while back. I was going to do it over the weekend, but I was laid low over the weekend. So that didn't happen. Yeah. I mean, there's only eight lights and they're not, like I said, they're only about a foot tall. And so it was interesting. They're probably what, 10 watt lights. So there's less than 100 kilowatts of lighting. Yeah. So it looks like maybe the meter is already there. And they're just going to tie into it. So the, you know, they're hardwired. I would, to the extent that we, we move and grant a certificate of appropriateness. I would do it for the lights and state the assumption being, as you say, Nate. Right. Yeah. So here's, if this is visible, here's the Google straight view from 2019. Here's the meter. So this is what he showed in the diagram was a meter here. And I just wasn't sure if they were going to do anything with it. You know, so the idea is to have lights along the, you know, the one side of the driveway. Okay. And the way is up there where the yellow sign is. The, sorry, the what is up there? The road. The house is behind us. The road. Yes. Yeah. So it's a long driveway and the house is behind. Yeah. It's a very strange place to have a meter. That seems strange. But it's there, right? So it is. It's already there. Yeah. So it must have been when the house was renovated, you know, in the late mirror that you made 2000 teens, they put, they must have put the box there. That's, I've never seen that. I mean, even temporary services don't usually get installed like that. Okay. And there's no suggestion of what the associated improvements would be. Yeah. So the lights are, these are the lights. So, I mean, all it was was a straight electrical permit. There's no building permit or other permits associated with it. And yes, install these along the driveway. And as best I can tell, they're, you know, 11 and a half inches tall and you know, pretty innocuous. But because, you know, our bylaw does require review of lighting. It doesn't differentiate between this type of lighting or lighting on a building. And so, you know, this, you know, went through a review needs to go through a view. It's downcast. I, that seems, seems fine to me. Okay. Yeah, I agree. Seems like a reasonable request. Does anybody have any objections to this or concerns? No, I think they're, they're beautiful. So I move to ground the certificate of appropriateness. Thank you. Do we have a second? A second. Well, do we have to also tie in, we've opened a public hearing, right? So we have to do and does anybody in the audience want to comment? Do we think, I guess the answer is probably no, because no one stuck their hand up earlier. Okay, so move to, move to ground the certificate of appropriateness for the proposed driveway light installation at insert the address, finding that the application is consistent with sections eight and those. I used to have a whole spiel that I read out, but do you want me to go, do you want me to pull, pull my standard spiel up, Nate, or you can basically we have to, logically, appropriately, we have to tie it to the two sections, I think, that find that it's, it's not injurious to the Dickinson, sorry, the Lincoln Sunset Historic District. So if you can construct that and then to close the public hearing, that would be the motion. Is there any further discussion? No. Shall we move to a vote? Bruce? Yes. Dave? Yes. Nicole? Yes. Rita? Yes. Karen? Yes. And I agree also. So I think that's sufficient to grant the certificate for this change. The next item is 17 Sealy Street, 14B32 First Congregational Church. This is a request to install outdoor HVAC unit on the back west side of the house, elevated above ground. Do we have anybody here from representing them? We do. I'll make them a panelist. What's the address again? 17 Sealy. So what's that? First Congregational Church. John, do you have things you would like to say about this? Yes. We had a frozen pipe at Jesse's house, which is a shelter. It's the old parsonage for the First Congregational Church on Main Street. And it turns out the pipe froze because there was an old gas through the wall heater there that was not functioning anymore. I'm on the property team and was unaware that this was not functioning. No one from Jesse's house let us know. But we got the plumbing fixed and talked to a HVAC guy and he said, look at the easiest thing to do here is to put a mini-split to handle this room. And that was applied for by an electrician. And that's, I think, what triggered the review. There was no building permit required. So it wasn't obvious to me that it got a historical review. But here I've learned something. Yes, anything on the outside of this building. So it is in place. I think Nate has a picture of it that he could put up. Don't have to do that. You're here. You're not here in your capacity as a part of the inspection staff I gather. I'm not here as a building inspector. No. Right. So yeah, in the packet I posted, you know, here's, here's, you know, older street view. Here's the back of the house. You know, there's somewhere the cursor is. There's some a box on the back of the house just above the brick. You can see next to the right of the door there. There's a, that's the old exhaust for the gas heater. Yeah. And then so it's there now is a plate. And then the unit is installed just underneath the side. I had the electricians hold it up off the ground because there's a sandbox there that the spring street nursery. The kids play in. I didn't, I didn't want to anybody stick in a finger or a stick into that many split unit. And Nate, the reason that we're doing this as opposed to just it being we've given some thought to these units. Right. We've excluded, we have excluded the installation of these, but we limit that they can only be, you know, four feet off the ground. And so because this one is elevated, it requires review. So if this were, you know, placed on the ground and it met the conditions we have, then it would be, you know, it would have been excluded from review, but because it's elevated, it triggers this. And Sean, the size of the unit will be approximately twice or three times, maybe four times the size of this unit that's currently there. No, this is it, Bruce. The picture right here is the unit. So where we're operating retroactively. Correct. Right. Okay. It seems to me you've given a very good reason for raising it higher. I'm willing to support this. Yeah. I mean, well, here's, here's what I learned too. And I kind of knew this, but in Massachusetts, you can apply for electrical permit and you can begin work. And as long as all your applications complete, then, you know, you have, there's, you know, a period where electrician can begin work before they can actually get their permit. And so with these mini-split units and some other electrical work that often happens and electricians, you know, submits their permit, all their insurance, whatever requirements, workers comp, and then they can actually begin work. And then within five days, the town has to review it and have some comments, but essentially they could go in there and one day do this work and then, you know, we're still chasing it. That's exactly what happened. Okay. So theoretically, we could, we could refuse to ground the certificate of appropriateness and they would have to be taken down or something like that. Or screened or something, right? But that's certainly not my intention. I think it's, it's, this is visible from the public way. Is that correct? Right. So I can go back. Sorry. I'm on, I'll go back to the. You can't see it from there. Yeah. So the back of the house is here where the cursor is and it's visible from, you know, the corner of spring and church, Churchill. So somewhere in, you know, back here by the parking lot, across the parking lot, it's visible. So it's, you know, pretty far away. It is. I'm fully comfortable with this. Do I have a move to motion to approve this? Motion to approve it. Second. I'll second that. Thank you. Any further discussion? I think we can move to a vote then. And, Karin. Hi. Peter. Yes. Steve. Yeah. Bruce. Yes. Nicole. Yes. And I also do. So I, we will grant you your certificate of appropriateness. Thank you for coming, John. Excellent. Thank you. Thanks, John. The third item is 216 Lincoln Avenue. This is from Marnie Electric Inc. And this is a request to install a generator, propane tanks, and equipment on the north side of the house. Nate, do you have a picture for us? Sure. I was going to ask if there's anyone here. I know that someone was thinking about coming. I know there's still someone in the audience. Is there an attendee here to speak to this? Yes. He'll be asked to become a panelist. You can accept that. Do you have a presentation you'd like to make, Mr. Jensen? Hello. Can you hear me now? Yes. Okay. I had submitted a number of attachments that I think Mr. Malloy should have to share. Yeah. If that's visible for everyone, this is a site plan. One dimension on there not shown is from the public way of the street to the generator position. It's quite far. It's 75 feet, I would say, approximately. The propane tanks are going on the rear of the home on that corner. So they're at the back side of the home. And then furthermore, I understand that could you bring up the street view? Thank you. So this is the north side of the house. Obviously, as I understand it, vegetation isn't to be considered, but these are antique perennial rhododendrons that I would care to guess no one in the right mind would cut down. And you can see the distance to the far back corner of the home there. I think there's one other image showing what a generator looks like. So about 50 feet, yeah. Yeah. That's approximately at 50 feet and that's the side of the generator. If all of that cut down, add 25 feet to that visual and you would be seeing the side panel of the generator, which is about 30 inches tall by 24 inches wide, beige in color. It's the exact same make and model. So it'd be that color. I know that it really doesn't have a bearing on this consideration for 216 Lincoln, but this is directly across the street from 216 Lincoln. This is 209 Lincoln. Okay. It's hard to see. Here, I can zoom in here a little bit. But yeah, I mean, it's... What's the white thing that's vertical above it? Back here? Yes, that. That's a porch. That's just at the corner, at the far back corner of the house. This is the porch and then there's a post. Oh, I see. So this is the house across the street. This is not the house that's in question. Correct. This is an example of what the generator would look like with, you know, free line of sight if all that vegetation at 216 wasn't there at 50 feet. The 216 generator is actually 75 feet set back for the road. Yes. I mean, it seems to me it's going to be quite well hidden. Yes. I think that the problem with this, if it's a problem at all, would be much more likely to be noise for the neighbors rather than the view from the street for the bulk of the neighborhood. It's not our purview. But do you happen to know the decibel rating of this thing? Yes, I provided an equipment cut sheet for the generator. And we can go down to the specifications area. And here are the sound. 57 dB. Yes. Well, that's about the noise level of a have a heat pump, water heater, almost exactly. A quiet one. It's quite, well, these Generac generators are, you know, they're competing against competitors in the quiet war, we call it. Because everyone wants a quiet generator. As I say, it's not our purview. But if it was, I would probably satisfied on behalf of whatever neighborhood concern I might have, I think. Thank you for that. That's yes. Are there any other questions for Mr. Jensen? Do we have a motion to accept this and provide a certificate of appropriateness? I'll move to grant a certificate of appropriateness to the post installation of the generator at 216 Lincoln, finding it not inconsistent with the historic integrity of the neighborhood and the Lincoln. Do we have a second? I'll second. Thank you. Any further discussion? Well, let's move to the vote. Then, Nicole. Yes. Bruce. Yes. Steve? Yes. Karen? Yes. Agree to. And I also approve it. So we are prepared to grant the certificate of appropriateness. Thank you for your presentation. Thank you. We're ready to move to the fourth and the item and this is 47 to 49 Fearing Street. Request to remove the existing concrete front stairs and replace them with new wood frame stairs with new decking and handrails. Do we have somebody from this request? It doesn't look that way, but we could ask if there's anyone here for this project, please raise your hand. I went by there today. The concrete steps are actually in really terrible condition. So this is absolutely an improvement. That's what I thought, too. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I'll share my screen. I know the contractor, I mean, everyone was made aware of this. I thought, again, that they would attend. See, here's the existing conditions. So, you know, it looks as if these aren't original, just based on the way this is framed up. And so the plan was to, this is a picture, you know, not this property, but to make it look something similar in terms of, you know, wooden or synthetic material up the stairs with railings and decking. And so here's the framing plan shows this. So, you know, treks decking and then it wouldn't be the same configuration facing out, which I also think is an improvement. Oh no, so this is just showing a side view. So I actually think it would, it would look very similar to this would just come straight out off the porch. Okay, because right now when it comes out, it's not straight out. Whoops. Yeah, no, it would. Yeah. My understanding is that it would just come, you know, straight down. So it wouldn't come between the two columns. It would, the half column would be the extent, presumably. Right. Right here. It's still be the, I would, I would speak to matching the material and profile of this, of the porch railing in the stair railing. I think using treks for the railing and the post would be quite awful. I mean, I would be very difficult to do treks. It's not a material that you use for fine woodworking or for even, you know, reasonable exterior finished carpentry. And it's rough. It would be hard to do. It wouldn't last long because you couldn't get decent fixings. The attachments into this plastic treks system would be, it's, well, it does say treks rail system. I don't know what that means actually. Yeah, I was just going to. I don't know what that looks like. Well, let's see what the, no, they didn't provide those, that level of detail. Yeah. Well, it takes, okay. I mean, it could be that it, you know, it's something like. Something like, so it's, you know, that it has a whole kit to it. So it's not, you know, you're not actually putting that, you know. Well, I think this is too speculative. I think they should come back and tell us what they're going to do. Yes, I think we, I agree, Steve. I think we should encourage people to take this seriously. And just because we've been quick on the last three years, because we had information that was complete. Essentially. Yeah. I know this has happened before where we asked them to come back and they, you know, we say we'll specify, tell us, is it this treks select? Is it this, you know, treks transcend and give us a little bit more detail so that we can understand what it'll look like? Yes. I would also like, you know, for the photos to be together as to how much they complement what is on the porch, kind of what Bruce was alluding to, because just putting treks in for those stairs, if they already have to paint the porch, they're not saving themselves on maintenance costs or anything like that. It's pretty small compared to the amount they'd have to be painting on the porch and things like that for regular maintenance. So it doesn't make sense to kind of be introducing that other material. I agree. So I think we should encourage, we should ask them to come back with more detail, and I think we should, as Nicole just said, encourage them to consider matching the existing ballastraining of the porch for the railings of the steps. But at very least telling us which treks system they propose. But if they want to receive a fully favorable reception here, maybe you could suggest that matching the porch would be the way to go. I mean, maybe that's a motion. I mean, yeah, we could. I'm just doing the date and time. We have, let's see. We have to continue this hearing to do this. We could continue it or issue it with conditions. Okay. And we'd have, you know, we have until September to actually issue a certificate. So, you know, we have to open the hearing within 45 days, which we've done. And then we have 60 days from the time of a complete application. So honestly, we, we, I got this moving knowing they submitted an application, but it wasn't considered complete until pretty recently. So we have time if we wanted to continue it, or we could, the commission could issue a. I would prefer to continue it so we can make sure that it opens out and it matches. Because it's pretty common on that street. It would make a big difference. Yes. Yes. I agree. So do we have a motion to continue this? I'll be honest this time. I make a motion to continue the hearing on this property. Do we have a, we should, we have to continue to a date and time certain. Okay. So we needed a date in September. Is that right? Or I mean, I would say August. Like what do we do like the week of August? We can do like August 7th or 14th. I mean, something like that. I will be out of town both of those days. And I'll be out of town all the days following. Oh, actually, no, I'll be out of town from the end of that week from the, from the 17th onwards. But I mean, it doesn't have to be the 14th. It could be a Tuesday, Nancy. I don't know if you're on vacation during. I'm away until the, I'm flying back on the 15th. So I can't do anything before the 16th. And I'm gone that same time that Nancy's gone. Well, I don't have to be there. I mean, I'll be in France or somewhere. It seems that Karen doesn't have much trouble phoning in. But she might, she might be cleverer than me. I think that's true. What about the week of August 21st? I'm around. I'm around. I'm around too. Yeah, I am too. Are you around me? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I can be around. Okay. This could also, you know, this would work if we did it then. In case we had other applications come in, you know, we could have this as a continued hearing, could have a regular meeting. And if there's another project to review, it gives us enough time to get a legal head in. Okay. So let's continue it to August 21st. 3pm. Is that? Yep. Do I have a second for that motion? A second. Any further discussion? Let's move to vote. Agree to. Yes, I agree. Karen? Yes. Steve? Yes. Bruce? Yes. And Nicole? Yes. Thank you. And I also agree. So we will move to continue this on August 21st at 3pm. That takes us through our initial issues. And so now we're ready for the rest of our agenda, which begins with the discussion of east Amherst as a potential historic district. So this is our opportunity to talk about that further. I have a bunch to report. First of all, in terms of financing, I reached out to, first of all, I reached out to Steve Schreiber of UMass and a number of other professors about interns. And Steve said that they'd only do it if we pay. And of course, we can't get a CPA grant until next August. There was a Paul Backelman, and I asked him if he could come up with like $3,000 or something like that. And he actually told me to refer to Nate and the planning department to see if they could come up with anything. So that's their ballpark. In the meantime, I've actually transcribed about a third of the foreign bees from the existing research that we have. And some of them are like actually dumb. You know, in 2014, maybe you could speak to this. And architectural firms like hired, I don't know if it's Pioneer Valley or whatever. And they did like tremendous research in their descriptions. I mean, there's nothing that needs to be done on four or five of the 15 that I've transcribed. There's a few that need like research. All the other ones all need architectural descriptions, you know, like a paragraph for each one, which I'm not equipped to do. But by the time we meet in August, I'll have all of them, all 45 projects transcribed. And Nate, you're going to need that. They took photographs of all the properties. But for some reason, when I try to paste them in, some of them come out sideways or they're big. And I also don't know how to put the maps in. So I'm going to need some technical assistance with that. But the main thing is maybe Betty can, when she gets back, she can do some of the historical research because that's within her preview. I don't know if Bruce wants to, or maybe there's another architect I know. We need someone to do probably about 30 architectural descriptions. And then in terms of like everything else, the boundaries, I think we should just use what the national registry or initial boundaries, that's my opinion. And the significance, the historical part is already done. So this is pretty open and shut once we can fill in a few of the holes. Thank you for that tremendous amount of work, Steve. It actually sounds like it's more than it is. Sounds like a lot. Yeah. I think one of the, it's not a big deal. Nancy, if I may. Yes, Bruce. Steve, I'd prefer to hold on committing to doing architectural descriptions of properties. I could probably help. It's not my strong point, I don't think, but it's also following the last planning board meeting where we ordered voted not to support a zoning amendment that we had been spending much of the previous five months on. The quid pro quo in getting a unanimous decision on that was that the board committed to let's just say an amount of work associated with understanding how to do a better job. That could sound disparaging. What I mean by a better job is that the primary objection to what was proposed was that the goals were laudable, but the solution concepts weren't the best in terms of achieving the goals. So the board and I want to put a lot of time and effort into this to honor this commitment is going to try and move a greater clarity on how to achieve the goals that the petitioners and the proposed were needed and so forth. So I can see that consuming a fair amount of my time. And the fact that I'm going to be out of the country for five weeks. So at least for the next three months or so, I would prefer to focus my activities in that area that the commitment to the planning board. So I'll be available, but I don't want to commit to some heavy lifting on that just yet. There's no rice and I'll see. I have a few more people I can also contact to see if they can do it because it's a lot of work that that one person do. But anyway, and hopefully Betty can do some of the historical stuff. And maybe, Nate, can we get any money? It's funny that Paul put it back here. We don't mean the planning department usually allocates money for maybe committee member training or certain things, but not this amount of money to hire a consultant. So the only thing I can think of is there's administrative CPA money. So it's not allocated to a category. There is say a percent of the overall CPA funding that can be used for administrative purposes. And this could be that if there's any available. And so, you know, I can acquire with. Yeah, because even if it's like three, you know, we pay them by the hour, we can definitely get a graduate student. And Steve's out of Steve's in Europe, too. You know, I told him that in the past, we've contracted. You got CPA money. We can track it with a grad student. So, you know, we just don't can't get the CPA money. Right. Um, anyway, it's not a big deal. And I did Steve send me an email. I did ask about the document sharing in the town clerk has said, and I have an email from the other week that the documents really have to be available to everyone. So the, you know, she's like, sure, you can use Dropbox as long as it's available to the public. And I've, you know, I've looked at the way it works. I don't I don't think it is, you know, there's essentially their private accounts and anyone with a link or something can view it, but it's not as if, you know, a member of the public could just happen to see it. And so the town clerk's office recommends setting up, you know, like a webpage through the town's website and just putting all the documents there. You gotta say that means anyone, does that mean anyone can go on it and change things? No, so it, no, ironically, um, I, you know, it's it's the tough process would be, you know, Steve, you'd have to get me the documents. I don't wait, I, you know, people could download them, I guess, but they couldn't then re upload them. So, you know, they're for viewing and downloading, but the only way that the changes can then be back uploaded would be to go through me. So, you know, if we could upload Word documents of every one of the inventory forms, different people can download them and work on them. And then the changes would have to come back to me to get uploaded again. Yeah, no, I have a sub, I have a file with 100 files and 45 photographs, you know, 15 form B's, some of the other things. What if I just did it individually with like Betty and somebody else, you know, to do the architectural stuff? Because this seems really, I have a hard time even getting to the site, you know, to our own pay, you know, I'm just a lot of, if I did it directly with like one person at a time, could I do it that way? Yeah, I mean, I think that's fine. It's not a subcommittee and really just information gathering. To me, it's not a discussion or deliberation on a topic. And so eventually, when this becomes, say, when we're actually discussing each property, you know, at some point we would, I would then have those, whatever we have available, then become public, right? So, if you have draft forms for 20 properties, we can include those in a meeting packet, and then that's the public packet, not these, you know, random pictures that are right or right, you know, things that just aren't really, to me, it's not, to me, it's not a violation of open meeting law. Nate, did you put the maps on last time? I can't remember who did it. Yeah, I started a webpage on the Local Historic District Commission one that had e-sammers, I think, or, and so I had, I started putting some stuff up there, but I will say having like a, you know, a working document, the website is not very good at that, right? So, it's not like a drop box where it's easy to download. Yeah, no, I just don't know. So, this is something that I'm starting to monopolize in this discussion. I mean, this is something new since seven years ago, when we did it before, not being able to do a drop box. Yeah, I think they, the concern is that there could be discussions happening through an online file system that isn't available to the public. And so, not that it's necessarily a violation, but it could be right, that people could be commenting on these. Oh, it's such a pain because if we had a, everyone used drop box, Bruce could just do like an architectural description of his leisure, one of the options and that he could like, you know, that's what we did last time. This just, this got to be a better way. Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about this. I mean, Steve or someone could contact the state and ask for an opinion. So, you know, I was trying to search through the open meeting law determinations, but it's, it's really hard. The Massachusetts Historical Commission, would that be what I would call? No, it'd be, Steve, maybe one way to do this. I mean, you sometimes you ask a question, say, is drop box okay to be used for blah, blah, blah. That's one way. The other way to ask the questions, how could drop box be used compliantly to achieve what you basically start off with the, with the assumption that you want to use drop box and that there would be qualified conditions associated with its use. And then the question, the answer would, would help you understand the qualified conditions. But of course, there may be, there may be no qualified conditions. In other words, they'd said it might be these days outlawed, but it looks like, you know, which, in which direction you go through the funnel, you know, it gets a more, it gets a differently satisfying answer. Yeah. Just so you know, Bruce, last time the town had a drop box account. It was through the town that he had a drop out account and everybody in the committee could access that. I don't want to give reviews drop box. It's like, it's fantastic. I use it all the time. I agree. I, it's, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to survive for that with habitat, with all of the things. Yeah. No, it just makes it really easy for everyone. Nate, if you could tell me who to call off, I'll be happy to call you. Yeah. I mean, so it's the attorney general's division. It's the attorney general's division of open government and their email is openmeetingatmass.gov. Okay. Can you, I can send an email. I'll just call them tomorrow. Because it would just make it so much easier for everyone involved. Right. Make it easy so that everyone could be involved. Yes. I agree. Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, I think, you know, I think the town clerk is just being, you know, is concerned, like I said, that there could be somehow some discussions online. I don't think we can have discussions on drop box. It's really, it's a big, clunky way to have discussions. Yeah. Every person has their own door into that storeroom. So you never in there with other people, so to speak. It's just, right. Now, yeah, I think, you know, last time, you know, I had set up a drop box. It was actually, I set up an account myself and then shared it with people and it worked fine. I just, yeah, that's not the guidance for being given now. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Oh no, Bruce had a question. No, I was just saying that I would support Steve's tenacity in this. I think it's the way that this world wants to work. I mean, this particular problem and the town website wheel is a square wheel, I think, as it sounds like, the way you described it, it would be much better if we, if there's this central box and we each have a door into it and we can go and come and see what other people are posting, but it doesn't, it won't allow us to deliberate. It'll simply allow us to share the data for subsequent deliberation. Right. Yeah. I mean, I told the clerk's office that eventually everything becomes public, the forms, the rapport, you know, images are uploaded onto the forms, but just, yes, that's true. But, you know, for example, I can go and have a conversation with Steve at Amherst Coffee and then a little later in the day, Steve can have a conversation with Karen while I'm having a conversation with Nancy and Nicole and Greta can talk on Fridays. And so, it's in that category, I think it's just, it's not meeting. It's just data sharing and formulating our thinking. I don't see why it would be a problem, but Steve, you're… Yeah, I like to get an opinion from the, I just had another dealing with the town clerk and she was overruled on something else. Can we get the town attorney to, like, sign off on it? Well, I think we're… What's that? That costs money. To ask a question? I mean… Yep. It's probably a three-dollar price tag associated with making a 15… Well, I don't know. I mean, I'll pay for it. I don't even care. I mean, it basically will save six months of work, I mean, six months' time to have it set up so people can just do what their skill set is. Yeah, but I don't think that we, you know, I would go to the town manager and he'd probably say, you know, exhaust what you can first. So, if the town clerk's saying no, then I think it's not, you know, I feel like someone on the commission would have to contact this attorney general's office just to, you know, see if there's a different determination. And so, I try to… Okay, if you give me any information, I'll do it tomorrow. I'll be happy to do it. Like I said, they post determinations online. I've been searching through them, but I can't find one that matches this scenario. Yeah, no, the problem is nobody… Since COVID, nobody works in an office anymore. And it's like, you get the woman at the Massachusetts Historical Commission. They literally have to leave three messages in style. And then, like, anyway, it's fine. I'll be happy to do it. If you give me the information. You want a thoughtful answer because these kind of inquiries often invite sort of perfunctory answers from people who don't want to take the trouble to really understand what the benefits are or what's driving the question. So we want to answer from someone who's, if there is a problem, they know it is a problem and explain why and have heard us and why we want to do what Steve's arguing. Which, as I say and you say, Steve, I don't see how it can violate open meeting laws or any of the other constraints that we're bound by. And if it does, then tell us specifically how and then we can organize to avoid that specific aspect of the violation. Rather than just doing a blanket, no, that doesn't work. I mean, otherwise, it would come down to me like email and use the specifics for me. And then you're sending it back to me. And then just so many ways to get confused. Instead of having a just essential repository for everyone. Yes. Besides we're bugging names. We don't do that. Yeah. I mean, I actually made that case to the town clerk that I don't want to be the one who has to then upload, you know, someone shares them with me and then I upload it and then, you know, it's a lot of redundancy. But perhaps we could explain to the town clerk that she would have to do all this uproading. Maybe that would have some. Well, do you want me to talk to Paul? No, I sent you just an email, Steve. I mean, I think it could be worth an email at least to the open meeting law division and see if they have anything. Okay, I'll call tomorrow and I'll report back to you and then you can relay it to everyone. Yeah. I feel like I'm, I've been told this twice now, so I don't know how much I can keep. Is it Susan? Is she the town clerk? She is. Yeah. Okay. All right. I may contact her directly myself. Yeah. So maybe it helps if all of us talk to the town clerk and she explains it. No. No, I think we could have one person just ask and I mean, I try to make it clear. It was only through email and then on the phone, but like, you're right, this is just a data sharing platform. It's not deliberation. It's really about facilitating, completing inventory forms and a report that then become public, but yeah. Okay. I'll call, I'll deal with this state attorney's office with the information and I'll see what they have to say and hopefully they'll sign off on it and if not, I'll contact Susan and try to reason with her because it just makes like, like Bruce just said, it's just busy work for you. It's costing the town money. Yes, it's better things to do. No, the, the, the deliberation of the, you know, where we, we take the data and think about it and construct propositions and so forth that I understand is something that has to be done publicly. But what Steve's talking about is much more analogous to the, just, just me thinking about what I'm doing and the idea that I have to be, have public scrutiny associated with the way I write a memo obviously is not the case. So I would say that data storage and, and, and retrieval and access to data that individual members of a committee become up to speed is, is, is, is not a problem. And I know we use the town website for that when we are getting data packets for these various meetings, but we could equally use, right. You know, as Nate knows, there's nothing deliberative about this form. They're inventory forms. And at the bottom of each one, you have to have, there's a historical significance section. And then after that, I mean, before that, there's an architectural description. They're very straightforward. There's no opinion. There's no deliberations. And yeah, so it's just, this is, it's just kind of absurd. But anyway, we'll go through to the extent Steve, that is opinion. It's your opinion or mine or Nancy's while we are uploading and downloading. And it only becomes our opinion. Once we start deliberation and look at what's written and decide that we are happy with the statement rather than whoever is the initial proposer. So it's all says thoroughly kosher to me. Yeah. Okay, I'll look into it. And if anyone wants to do research or like, once I have all these forms up, they're extremely straightforward. They're kind of interesting. I mean, some of these properties, the shumways owns a ton of these properties a hundred years ago. I mean, how long have there been shumways without? Do you know? How many shumways have there been? Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting because, you know, there's Kurt Shumway and then there's, you know, but he's mentioned that he's not related to other shumways. And so it's, it could be that there's some shumways now that are not related, you know, that some of the shumways that you're seeing Steve are not the same family. Really? Yeah. I don't know if they're not obviously connected, but Right, right. I'm guessing they would be, but it's just ironic to me that you could have a shumway family in Amherst that isn't the same, but I mean, I don't see any shumway before 1900, but there's a ton of shumway properties around 1900. So, yeah. Okay. Anything else about East Amherst as a potential historic district that we want to discuss? I'm good. We have a way forward. Good. Let's move to a discussion of amending the bylaw to include the review of parking lots. This is something that Steve brought up and it seems really important. This made is the one that was pursuing it, so I have nothing to report on it. Yeah, it's really interesting. I post, I've talked to Rob Mora a few times about this, the building commissioner. And so I think I sent something with some language. I did post it on the mass preservation listserv. And, you know, I've had a, I don't know, maybe like a half dozen to eight or nine responses. And it's a little nuanced, right? So local historic districts not supposed to regulate use. It's only, you know, supposed to regulate structures or buildings. And so some communities are saying, well, well, you can't regulate parking. I'm like, well, it's the parking area. It's the pavement. It's not parking the use of parking. So I think we have to be clear on that. But you know, what's interesting is that Charles Sullivan from the Massachusetts Historical Commission said, well, you can regulate parking now the way your bylaw is written. And I think it's just that our bylaw is silent. It doesn't, it doesn't say it, right? So it describes a structure as something other than a building, including, you know, and then it says things like walkways, driveways, you know, and it doesn't say parking, but it says that. And then further on, as an exemption, it lists things that are at grade, like a terrace driveway and walkway are exempt from review. So the, you know, they are saying like, okay, well, all these things are exempt, but it doesn't, again, it doesn't, there's no mention of parking or parking area. And so what, you know, Rob and I were saying is, do we, I'll pull up in a second, do we define parking, parking area or parking lot as a term? And then we don't, we just, then we just don't exempt it. And so I think it's possible. It's just, you know, we'd have to, you know, I think we just have to come up with some criteria. So you know, what we were saying is if parking becomes a defined term, if this is, am I sharing my screen? I guess I'm not sharing my screen. Sorry. You want to be, oh, there we go. Yes. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. I thought I thought I had been sharing it. You know, we're saying we could define a parking area, you know, in there. So your, your, the reason for the arrow is just where it will fit in the definition structure. Right. We could say, you know, something like a parking area is an improved impervious surface within the property design to accommodate a total of five or more parking spaces. You know, we could say like, it could also say something like a number of square feet of pavement or impervious surface because it's, it's more than a new place. Right. And so, you know, so what we have here is the current definition says a structure is a combination of materials other than a building, including a sign fence walk or wall terrace walk or driveway. And so, you know, some communities have said, well, this also includes parking. I know, but it's just not explicitly mentioned. And then the issue is, sorry for the scrolling in the exemptions or exclusions, we say that terraces walks, driveway sidewalks, similar structures, substantially at grade are exempt. And so then essentially it's also implying that parking is exempt. And so, you know, Newton is the only place that regulates parking. But what they do is, oh, do I have it up? They, I'll, I'll share it in a minute. They, they regulate the material of the parking. And so what they found is in their local historic districts, they have four that people, you know, were taking out cobblestone or brick and they're paving them. And so they actually, they regulate the location, they push it to the back of the property. And then if it's in the front or on the side, they'd like to see something that is historic. So like a brick pattern or something not, you know, but, you know, anyway, so Springfield said, oh, maybe you regulate it by defining it and you have certain terms. And then, you know, so anyway, there's some ideas, but I think it's a, I think it's possible. I think we just want to be careful because local district is not supposed to be about use. It's more about, you know, the structure. And so essentially we'd be regulating the parking area itself in terms of like, you know, how visible is the parking lot or space from the street. You know, and we also don't want to get into the situation. I'm defining a parking space because then there's a drive aisle, you know, is it a driveway? So, you know, a prop, you know, single family home all of a sudden repays their driveway. You know, there's no permit. There's nothing associated with that. How do we, do we want to review that? So really it's about if there's a parking, you know, a parking lot or a parking area. Anyways, that's kind of where we, Rob and I have landed and it seems like it could work. Thanks. That's a lot of work. Thank you so much. Yeah. I think it's really important to move in that direction because the whole ambience of a historic district is ruined if you start asphalting a lot of the green spaces. So I like what you said that Newton does that they try to push it to the back. And then if it's not possible, then to really talk about the material because we're, I mean, we're charged with kind of saving the whole ambience of the, not just the structural, but the ambience that goes with it. So I like this idea. And I think I like your proposals that it's about the structure. It is really about the structure, not parking as per se. Bruce? I think this is good. I think that where this, I think came from was when we were presented with that cluster or duplexes or the equivalent there of on a single property in Fearing Street. And there was one huge paved area in the middle that was having something like 30 cars. So the, I think if we handle it the way Nate's talking here, and I would say perhaps exactly the way I'm not sure about that lower box about review of parking involves additional units, it may or may not, but beyond that, I think all of this is something we really should do. And then having inserted parking areas and make sure they're not exempt and so forth, then we can apply that part of the bylaw that refers to consistency of scale. Because the thing that was so out of kilter with that proposal was the scale of the parking area. Historically, no one would ever have aggregated carriages or whatever you might have thought were the vehicles of the day. They wouldn't be put together at that scale. So I think it's quite reasonable to say that the parking areas when you've got when they become a scale have to be when you've got lots of cars that you need to accommodate have to satisfy that aspect of historical appropriateness that they are appropriately scaled with the way carriages and vehicles have handled elsewhere in the neighborhood. And this would allow us to apply that existing aspect of our bylaw to parking areas along with everything else. So Nate, I think this is very good. It seems to me to be ready for prime time. Nicole. Yeah, thank you for bringing up the term scale, Bruce, because that's what I wasn't seeing covered here, but it seems like it's covered somewhere else. And then secondly, my only hesitation that I think will come out as it did, whether it was Fairing Street or whatever the other property was, was the fact that all that parking was in the back. But all the neighbors were bringing up the fact that that's our backyard. That's what we're seeing. So, you know, I mean, that's where it's kind of good that it comes to committee, but it it just can't be shadowed under as long as it's in the back. It's it's okay, because that's that was what they were doing. And it was really, really hurting the neighborhood still. But as long as we've got the scale covered somewhere else, that's what I was worried about. Yeah, thank you for raising that, Karin. No, I'm sorry, my hand's still up. I agree with Nicole. Thank you. Yeah, so I was gonna say, I'll, you know, I'll try to compile all the responses what I've received from the listserv and I'll send them to members. I mean, it is interesting, Newton doesn't really define parking even though they regulated. And so I think, you know, Rob Moore and I feel like we the bylaw works, I think defining it makes it a little stronger so then the it can be clearer. The, you know, that was ironic is someone might try to hide parking by putting in a fence, but then that's regulated as well. So then they could say it's not visible. So, you know, Rob and I were trying to just talk about what kind of different scenarios with this, you know, what will we see from this. And so I think for the commission, I'll send you what we have and we can look at this for next time. You know, I think I'll send you some examples. So when we do rental permitting, we have a parking plan. And so people will show how many parking spaces they have on a property. And so I'll pull a few of those. And so I think, you know, to me, the I think what's, what's important to consider is what really is the defined area. What is the parking area? Is it a number of parking spaces? Is it a square feet of impervious surface? And so, you know, oftentimes homes might have a pretty big driveway. And then somewhere off the driveway, they might have a turnaround. But then is that any, is that, is that a parking area at all? Or is that just part of the driveway? And when does it become the parking area? So like, I'll just, you know, for instance, sorry for the scrolling, but up on McClure Street or not on McClure, on Lincoln, you know, for instance, 328 Lincoln, you know, there's some parking in the back. So, you know, right now you could have a long driveway and then some parking back here. But the way I'm trying to define it is that this driveway isn't part of the parking area. It's where the cars are all parked. So, you know, if they have a parking back here, that becomes the parking area, right? So if they have five or more car parking area for five more cars, that becomes regulated. It's not, not the driveway. So anyways, I think those are actually across the street here, right? So for instance, like to me, this is the parking area. So I, you know, I just, that's something we can, we could talk about now too. I just, I'm trying to find a right way to, to define it. So we're not, you know, one is, I don't want necessarily have to review every time a driveway changes or there's a little change in paving. And then what is kind of the right scale or right, what's the right threshold to start regulating? Yeah, I agree again with using scale or ratios, because if we just put in square footage, the same square footage is going to have a different impact on one acre versus point one acre. You know, so it's, so it's how much of their entire property is becoming driveway and or parking. That's more of a concern to me than whether or not, you know, they're adding to their driveway. Well, thank you, Nick. This is very helpful, Bruce. I just wanted to read the section of the bylaw. This is the bylaw, not the rules and regulations and under criteria for determinations. Number two, it says in the case of new construction or additions to existing buildings or structures, the commission shall consider the appropriateness of the scale, shape and proportions of the building or structure in both relation to the land area upon which the building or the structure is situated and structures in the vicinity. So that's the reference to scale that's already in the bylaw that would allow us that the addition of parking would, we would be allowed to apply that criterion to our deliberation. And also the next further down it says that commission may, in appropriate cases, impose dimensional and setback requirements in addition to those required by applicable statute or bylaw. So it could be that there's also then some setbacks that the commission, I mean, that goes back to the scale and vicinity, but I just wanted to follow up on what Nicole mentioned as well. Just so I wanted to make sure I was remembering it correctly. Right. Yeah. So I mean, right, we're really trying to figure out what is a definition. And then, you know, if we have a definition in there, and we can then say it's not part of those exclusions, then it's regulated, we just, I just want to make sure we have a good definition. And it seems like it's, you know, Rob seems pretty comfortable with it more that it can be done. I mean, we need to make it explicit because it's going to come up. Right. So, you know, I'll afford you this, but the city of Springfield, whoever responded to me where he had, you know, they'd said, I mean, granted, that, you know, this is in Springfield, but he was saying, could you define it as structures related to parking that would include pavement signage or barriers, such as chain link, fence, fencing or concrete and then hit some other things, I'll send it all along. Like I said, I'll compile it. But, you know, it's interesting that we can regulate fences independent from parking. So then we have that cover, but, you know, we've never been comfortable doing just parking. So. Well, that property on fairing, that proposal on fairing certainly rattle a lot of cages. So the next step is, I think at the next, I'll send some information. I'll probably do one or two different definition or drafts. And I think the next step would be to have the commission, you know, figure out a final, you know, say something that we like. And then I guess we just, we have to see what's the best order to move that forward. Is it a, I guess it's a petition to change the general bylaw? I mean, I don't. Is that done by a vote of the commission? The commission would vote to recommend it, but then it becomes a council. Okay. You don't have to go to a council and they'd refer to maybe CRC and GLL, but it would be, you know, the commission could sponsor that change. Karen, do you have something to say? Yeah, this is tricky. I can't remember if this was the, our commission or the planning board. Remember, we had to review that house. Was it on Spalding where the neighbors insisted there was enough parking for the renters? And yet what they were planning on doing was going to just pave over the whole backyard and none of us like that. So it is going to be tricky because if they have a certain amount of people living in the house, they are mandated to provide a certain amount of parking places and then you are in trouble. So it's going to be, it's going to affect a lot of people. I think it was the planning board because I remember Janet McGowan had some opinion on that. So that must have meant it was the other board, but nonetheless. Yeah, I mean, no, I agree. So I think, you know, local historic district is different than zoning. And so I think there are different purposes and it could be that there are some inconsistent, you know, decisions. But I think usually the boards can, you know, we can figure that out. But I think if, for instance, an application is coming to the local historic district and there's a lot of parking, you know, 20 or 30 or some 40 parking spaces on a residential property, I think it would be very well within the commission's purview, even now to say that's too, you know, it, it's impactful and no, you could say no, or you could say that, you know, 10 space. And the ZBA might say something different and then that becomes something the applicant has to figure, you know, has to resolve. I mean, staff can work with them. But yeah, I mean, I do think that, you know, we have zoning, we have lock coverage in our zoning. And but what we haven't seen is in a lot of cases, someone really maximizing lock coverage. So, you know, typically someone might say, Oh, we, you know, even though I can go up to 50% or 60%, I most places are probably like 10 or 15%. And maybe with the market, the way it is, the housing market, people are going to start trying to redevelop their property and really push those coverages. And so then that then the town, you know, maybe that then our zoning has to change too. Right, just because we haven't, we haven't, we've never been, you know, kind of had so many requests to get up to that maximum. And so if we're seeing that more than something we could consider as well. Is there any further discussion of this issue? Thank you, Nate, for all your work on this. I think this is moving in exactly the right direction. And we look forward to seeing what you come up with next. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Are there unanticipated items to discuss? I have a quick question, which is that the property on fearing was advertised by the real estate agent, suggesting that those buildings and things could be done. And I don't know if the local historic district, it would be in our interest to, I know we give out the brochures to the real estate agents, but let them know that it's not quite as easy. They have to go through the local historic district. I just thought it was amazing that the real estate agent would advertise that way. This is the one that had come before us. It's not a current listing, right? No, no, no. It came before us. Yeah. Anyway, just an interesting point. No, I think that's a great idea. And I know that Dorothy Pam was going to talk to Jackie, who is the real estate agent about that. She never got a reply is what I heard. Yeah. So, and I, I don't know. I just think it's too bad that the real estate agents for our neighborhood would put that out there as this is a great idea. It said location, location, location. Yeah. Everybody thinks very clearly about things. Yeah, we don't. Yeah. I mean, we, you know, if someone calls us oftentimes realtors or even, you know, prospective buyers or even sellers sometimes make a call and we'll, you know, we'll provide the information. So, but we, you know, we don't track or monitor what listings are coming up, right? So we don't, if we don't know that, you know, the sun property is going to be listed next week and we'll provide them information. So it's really, you know, we only, the town would respond unless, you know, until we're asked. So sometimes we don't even, you know, we're not privy to any more information than what the public sees. But yeah, no, I mean, that does happen. You know, it's not just maybe it's good to be a little bit more proactive for our historical commission and just put a note out to the realtors in general saying, just remind your, your buyers that they have to get approval from in this particular, I don't know, this might go over badly, but I think it's worth doing a reminder like that. Well, at one point we gave them our brochure when they have to open house. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you, Bruce. I just asked Nicole what she thought because that's her place. Yeah. Yeah. So, so what, obviously, the first part that I would really want to do is if, like, from my perspective, like on the MLS and this isn't what you see on Zilla, like you don't see the disclosures, you don't see the firm remarks that only realtors can see, not even my clients can see the firm remarks. So it would be kind of me on the MLS checking to see if they have notified other realtors that this house is in the local historic district. And that's all the further the realtors, I feel even the realtors obligation or legal obligation is to say it's, you know, this is in the local historic district. This is Massachusetts is a buyer beware state. So everything is on the buyer, not the seller. So basically like if the listing agent needs to disclose what they've got, right, they, you know, and, and I would like either me, Nate or, you know, whatever, like send an email saying just so you know, you should be sharing that this is in the local historic district because now they're preppy of that information. If it's not already in that MLS. So then it's kind of like they could be saying whatever they want to say of improvements that could happen to the house, just because they've got great ideas. But as long as we've got it noted, this is part of the local historic district, we've done the buyer a service of in hopefully they've got a good buyer's agent of knowing, oops, anything we do, like let's double check what has to happen. So like I think that's where it needs to be caught, like, like we can let them go and say whatever they want to say, that's kind of like marketing, whether it's false marketing or, you know, whatever else, but as long as they're also disclosing that it is in this local historic district commission, they are providing the information that I might say this, but of course it needs to be approved. Nicole, I had a question. Sometimes we do solicit, you know, members from the Pioneer Valley Realtors Association. I mean, would it be worth trying to contact them again and saying, oh, like in Amherst, is there a way to, you know, make sure that these properties are noted? I mean, is there, you know, is there a follow up that I could do, you think? Um, so, so you solicited people that lived in Amherst to be on this commission. Right. It's not the same as, say, going out to the, but... Right. I mean, like, there can be, there has been like a listing agent from Boston. Right. Listing the property that we might not even catch in the Pioneer Valley Realtor Association. There's not very often, but, you know, it can, it can happen. It's not a total safeguard. And really like Realtors have, whether diagnosed or not diagnosed, like the most ADHD, like it's, they get a little bit of information and like, it's gone by the time they're actually listing the property. So, it really is like catching at that listing. You know, I mean, it's like right then and there, I'm looking to see if they put it in the MLS, if they didn't, I, like we want to put it in writing so that it was like a formal disclosure that can be held accountable. Because I mean, we have an ethics committee, you know, we get sued just like everybody else. So, you know, I mean, it's like, that's where I would really want it to be in writing of just informing this properties on that district. We recommend that to be, you know, disclosed to the buyers and put in the MLS, if it's not already. Thank you, Nicole. That's really a good answer. Yeah, I was going to say too, I mean, it's not just local sort districts. I mean, we get it from, you know, someone's listing a property in South Amherst and they say you can do this or this and then, you know, a prospective buyer is like, Oh, I can go do this. And you're like, well, actually, maybe, maybe, I mean, but you're not, you might need some special permits or you might have to go to the conservation commission. It's not a, you know, we can't say no necessarily, but it's not. So, yeah, it comes up with wetlands all the time, right? Like that, that sellers don't even know about sometimes, you know, and buyers get ideas to build certain things or whatever else. Yeah, as wetlands shift. Yes, right. Thought was through five years ago changes and people don't remember or think of that. So I think the wetlands were shifting yesterday in our neighbor. Okay, so do we have public comment? Is there anyone from the public still here? Hilda Greenbombs here. That's the only attendee right now. Hello, Hilda. Hilda, I think is paying attention for the ending. And we said the next meeting and it will be a continued hearing was I just want to confirm August 21st at 3pm. That's right. So we've set the next meeting date. Anything else that anyone would like to discuss? Then do we have a motion to adjourn? We do. Thank you, Bruce. Second? Several seconds. All in favor. I'll vote by clicking the red button. Thank you all. Have a great summer. Have a great month. Thanks to everyone for all your work. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye.