 Good morning, and a warm welcome to the 10th meeting of the Constitution, Europe External Affairs and Culture Committee. I'm delighted to be here this morning, and I want to put on record my thanks to the committee members, especially my deputy, convener Donald Cameron, for their sterling efforts over the last few weeks at what has been a particularly busy time for our committee. This morning, we have apologies from Sarah Boyack and Dr Allen will be joining us remotely today. I welcome Paul Sweeney, who is here as a substitute member for Ms Boyack. I invite Mr Sweeney to make any relevant declarations of interest. Thank you, convener. I have no relevant declarations of interest. Thank you, and welcome this morning. Our first item on the agenda is a decision in taking several items of future business in private. This is the draft report on the Scottish Government's resource spending review and a draft report on our inquiry into the Scottish Government's international work and consideration of our work programme. Our committee agreed to take those in private in future. Yes. Thank you very much. Our second agenda item is a further consideration of the humanitarian impact of the crisis in Ukraine. We are joined this morning by an online panel from Graham O'Neill, policy manager of the Scottish Refugee Council, Andy Sirill, legal director and partner of Just Right Scotland, and Mary Hayes, Scotland director of the British Red Cross. I am very warm welcome this morning and thank you, because I am sure that you are all extremely busy at this time, and we really appreciate you taking the time to be with the committee this morning. If I could open with a question that is a sort of niggling concern that I have, I was from North Lanarkshire, so I have been involved in a couple of resettlement schemes for refugees, particularly with the Syrian Resettlement programme most recently. I think that North Lanarkshire is regarded as a success in this area. I am very aware of the time and the space that the refugees needed once they had come to Scotland and the support that they needed during that process. I am somewhat troubled by some of the media around it, and we will all be welcome, particularly the Dnieprow kids, who are just arriving in Scotland today. I am concerned that they need privacy and they need to be treated with dignity and respect. I just wondered if I could ask their panels about their thoughts in this area, and if I could go firstly please to Mr O'Neill. Thank you, convener, and good morning to you and to everyone else, and thank you for inviting Scottish refugee camps to give them the evidence that they will do on their behalf. I am actually very glad that you raised that, because this is something that has been troubling us. There is always a balance to be struck at these times when there is huge public interest and a lot of that is reflected among other institutions and media, and on social media to an extent too, of what is happening and trying to get an understanding of how it is affecting people. There is a very human reaction, which is very understandable, but I suppose that we are a bit concerned in relation to the Dnieprow children. Those who are coming from an absolutely horrendous situation cannot imagine what it must be like for them, the disorder in their lives at the moment, and their children first and foremost, and as children there needs to be that kind of layer of extra respect, particularly for privacy. I would say that in terms of the levels of media interest, it has been high, and we understand that, but I think that that is particularly because this is children who are coming from a very, very difficult situation. They are coming over, it is my understanding, from out Poland where they found relative safety to another safe country here in Scotland, and they have legal guardians coming, it is my understanding as well, over with them. Now is the time that we do not need images and social media, for example, of these children. They need to have the respect or the privacy maintained now, and to be honest before now, but we are over that. It would be more of a plea for people to empathise with those children, and their legal guardians, from now on, and let them have the privacy and settlement that they so desperately deserve, and actually need at this point. Thank you. If we could bring in Mr Siddl next. Yes, thank you very much. Good morning to the committee. Thank you for asking us to give evidence this morning. Yes, I would agree with Graham. When I reflect on working with new clients for the first time, women and children who have just arrived in the UK being persecuted, it is one of the most challenging points in their entire experience here, that initial entry point. It can be absolutely overwhelming. It is a new country, a new language, and it is dealing with loss, grief. There are lots and lots of different confusing processes to navigate, housing, employment, benefits, education or social work support, if they are involved. Those are all fairly confusing processes for those who live here to be honest with you. Never mind individuals coming in from a place of conflict. Most important, they are usually very worried about family members. When we think about the Ukrainian nationals who will be coming in, we know that they are predominantly going to be women and children, the majority of them will be. Your example of Dene Pro-Kids is an entire cohort of unaccompanied children. We need to be very, very careful. We need to be thinking about safeguarding. I will hopefully be able to speak a little bit more about that later on. There are ethical considerations around the publicity, the sharing of their images, the sharing of their location. It was in the media where they were coming to in Scotland. I work exclusively almost with children in care. It is not ethical to be sharing the locations of children in a specific, identifiable children in our care system. That is actually a safeguarding issue. We definitely need to be thinking about those things and respecting the privacy and the experiences that they have gone through and letting them at least get their feet on the ground. Thank you. Ms Byrne. Sorry, it is Mary Hayes from the Red Cross. I am extremely sorry. I looked at the wrong panel list. That is okay. Thank you for the opportunity. I think that as part of the Red Cross movement where we are involved at different stages in people's journey with our fellow societies in the Ukraine, the societies and the border agencies, we have to recognise that this is a stage in people's very traumatic journey. You pointed out that we have experience in the past of people coming, of recycling. We need to learn those lessons. We need to learn what has worked. It would be good if the committee had an opportunity to hear from people who have come through that system in terms of what worked. The media is a big challenge. It has worked very positively in raising the profile of the issue of helping to raise funds. We have to treat people with the dignity that they deserve. What would we expect if we were coming? People are very traumatised on arrival. We are aware that we will come to some of the core elements for arrival and support. We have to work with the media to respect the dignity of people and their need for a bit of space and support in terms of their own trauma and where that is. From the Red Cross's point of view, our emblem is often a very reassuring, recognisable symbol of what people can expect. I think that Scotland wants to be humanitarian but we need to work with the media on what that means for people's lives. I know that a colleague Ms Minto wants to go into the learning that we have in this area, but just before that, could you bring in for a supplementary Dr Allan, who is joining us online? Thank you, convener. It was really just a question about some of the many complexities that people are going to face in terms of the information that they have or don't have. One of the things that COSLA has pointed out has been about the fact that people will have different immigration statuses depending on the different schemes that they are coming in under, potentially. I don't know if that's an accurate perception, but it can't contribute towards making life easy for people who are coming in here. I just wonder if perhaps Cyril or Graham would have something to say about what could be done to simplify that situation or at least provide a clearer flow of information to remove at least some of the worries that refugees might have. I will go to Mr Cyril first and then I will go to Mr O'Neill. Thank you for the question. It's critical that the committee and members of the Scottish Parliament understand that. It's tempting to say that visa schemes are a reserved issue, but their impact is felt at the devolved level. The schemes that have been put in place are long, bureaucratic and fundamentally insufficient. They are visa schemes, which is the first problem. They are not a humanitarian scheme. That means that they require people to make online applications, submit evidence online, register biometric information, oftentimes before coming to the UK. The application is then decided by a decision maker in the UK. That is an insufficient response. The statistics that we have from 22 March show that just over 66,000 applications have been made and 15,800 visas have been granted under the two predominant schemes that we have. That amounts to 0.4 per cent of people who have fled Ukraine alone. We have to be thinking about the diaspora beyond the borders of Ukraine. That was already in existence prior to the conflict. Those visa schemes are insufficient from that perspective, but most importantly, the eligibility criteria that they have are quite strict. In fact, they are very strict. They do not capture individuals who are already in the UK, for example, in precarious situations and very concerned about their family members. They do not capture individuals who are on visit visas already in the UK. They cannot sponsor family members and cannot apply to either of them. They do not capture individuals who are on student visas, attending Scottish universities. Student visas are time-limited visas. They have restrictions on their right to work. Those students, we understand, are very concerned about their family members being unable to sponsor them, but also their own situation. No recourse to public funds is attached to those types of visas. Those individuals are burning through resource and are going to be at risk of destitution. Seasonal workers as well. I think that it is very important to talk about them, and I hope that we will talk about them in this committee session. 67 per cent of all seasonal worker applications that are grants in the UK in 2021 were for Ukrainians, so this is a predominantly Ukrainian scheme. Seasonal workers are not eligible for either of the visas that are in place. They cannot sponsor family members from here. They are stuck on specific visa routes in the sense that they cannot change employer. If they want to send more money back to family members in Ukraine, they cannot do that. There are no recourse to public funds, and there are all sorts of other problems, including their accommodation and what they are going to do when their visa expires. Those people are falling through the gaps and they live here in Scotland. The advice that is required to be given to those individuals is extremely complex. We are very grateful to the Scottish Government for providing just right Scotland to establish the Ukraine Advice Scotland, which is an advice service that we operate for the Ukrainian nationals in Scotland and those looking to seek safety in Scotland. Our experience of that scheme, as well as our previous pro bono experience through another similar project, is that the level of complexity that we require to give in terms of advice is very challenging. A single seasonal worker that we gave advice to earlier on this week, who lives in Scotland and works on a farm, requires advice about six different complex levels of immigration routes, about changing jobs, about making applications to the existing schemes but outside the usual remit, including a lawyer obtaining evidence, claiming asylum. Those are all issues that are in the picture. If people cannot understand their status and access advice and address their status, those individuals will fall into destitution. The services in Scotland need to be aware of that and understand how to react in order to do that. Preferably, it uses its influence to advocate for those individuals to be brought inside the schemes, because if we do not do it, we are not offering a thorough protection-based approach to this conflict. We are offering something that is piecemeal and complicated. I might ask before if there is time for agreement. It does sound as if there is a conflation going on here, between the type of process that would be associated with a work visa and the type of process that would be associated with a refugee programme in a war. Is that a question for me? For you and for Graham, does it sound like the process that we have is fitted to the situation that we have for refugees, or does it look like retrofitting a programme that is probably designed for something else, designed for visas for workers? I agree with that. Visa schemes are not designed or sufficient for a refugee crisis. We are seeing that purely in the numbers, but we are also seeing that on the basis that we can look across the countries in Europe. We are the only one operating a visa scheme. The question is why? If we look to our learning in previous resettlement schemes and the convener raised this earlier, the civilian scheme, the Afghan scheme at this moment in time for all its challenges, we were offering protection-based routes under our international obligations around human rights law and the refugee convention. We are not doing the same for Ukraine. Some Ukrainians may not want to obtain refugee protection because they are hoping that this dreadful war will end and that they can go back to their families as soon as they can in their homes. Fundamentally, we need to offer some level of flexibility, not just trying to cram a square into a triangle space. We are trying to use the visa schemes that are inappropriate in order to try to meet the need. I gave advice a few days ago to an individual stranded in Ukraine. He needed to demonstrate residence in Ukraine on 1 January. He needed to demonstrate a relationship with his mother, a family relationship, no birth certificates. Even if he had one, he would need it translated. That is the level of detail that is required to be given in order to meet the eligibility criteria of his visa applications when we should not even have the visa application process. Anyway, we should be doing what our European colleagues are doing. Mr Reneill? Andy Rennie has put it really comprehensively and eloquently. I would just stand back a bit. There has been a deliberate choice by the UK Government and the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister to apply a deeply inappropriate approach, a visa-based approach, to what is the largest and fastest refugee crisis in Europe since the Second World War. That has been applied to predominantly women and children. It is no surprise, sadly, that there are only 15,800 visas that have been issued as of Tuesday this week through the Ukraine family scheme. We do not know what the situation is yet with the homes for Ukraine scheme. To use a very brief football analogy, you have a lot of pressure at the moment in Europe on very vulnerable people. What the UK Government is doing at the moment, if it was a manager, is taking off the strongest and most experienced player, the refugee convention, because this week the UK Government, after 17 years, has signalled through votes in the House of Commons that it is going to sever the link with the refugee convention through the Nationality and Borders Bill, which could be getting brought into effect in a couple of weeks' time. In its place, it is putting on one of the most inexperienced and potentially quite good inexperienced players through asking very kindhearted, very well-intentioned people who are desperate to help in any way they can to take on the responsibility for housing people who are at their most vulnerable time with complex psychological trauma very likely to thin many of the people because of the repeated episodes of very serious issues that they have dealt with. The homes through Ukraine scheme is essentially that inexperienced player. It is coming on, and they have been asked to do what the state should be doing, but what is actually happening is that the state is withdrawing through the Nationality and Borders Bill, through withdrawing from the refugee convention, and in its place, it is putting in the visa-based schemes in the midst of the fastest and largest refugee crisis in Europe. That is deliberate, and it is insightful, and it is deeply worrying because if that can be done at a time of what is happening in Ukraine and the overwhelming public generosity and empathy that is evident here in Britain as well as in other countries towards people displaced in Ukraine and in Ukraine, then what does that pretend for later on when the Nationality and Borders Bill is in act and is the arrangement that is put in place? Your question was very pertinent. There is something deeper going and more insidious and concerning going on here, when having, as Andy said, a visa-based response to a refugee crisis. What that means is that people are being traumatised by that visa-based response as we are seeing in the horror stories of delay across Europe and elsewhere. I will maybe stop at that point. I am not going to get a bit more in detail about the super sponsor and some of the other issues, but there is something more deeper in the insidious going on here. It is very, very concerning and we need to, as I am trying to do, name it here and now. Hopefully that will help to increase the pressure for among other things visa requirements to be lifted off the shoulders of people, because at the moment the UK Government is putting visas on to the shoulders of already desperately vulnerable people at the greatest time of need, that is frankly unacceptable for what is happening. I am going to bring Ms Hayes in in a moment, but I know that Mr Ruskell had a particular interest in saying that. Is there anything else you want to ask Mr Ruskell? Particularly in relation to seasonal workers, given that we have opened that up, I would like to ask a little bit more on that. That is okay, convener. Andy has already mentioned some of the visa restrictions there. Grim, you sent a very useful briefing through to the committee. I would like to say a little bit more about what the plight is of those seasonal workers, particularly around housing, some of the challenges around no recourse to public funds as well, and also Andy, you have spoken about the kind of support and advice that these workers need. What should that look like on the ground? Are we looking at concentrations of seasonal workers around Scotland? Is there a way that we can effectively deliver that support on the ground in areas where there are significant communities if Ukrainian seasonal workers are working in the agricultural sector? My last thing that I would ask you to reflect on is whether you think there is any effective exploitation of these workers that is happening in Scotland. That is perhaps a difficult question to answer, but I think that the tide nature of the work concerns me a bit. Graham, can I go to your side? Can I ask Ms Hayes to respond to the previous point? We will roll that together. Thanks, Mark. I would echo so I won't repeat the points about the existing visa scheme, but I also wanted to highlight the need to think about family reunion as we go forward. These are separated families. The schemes that we have in place, we make it quite difficult for families to reunite or families to join who have ended up in different parts of Europe or other places. We have quite a lot of experience of the trauma of separated families during war, so I would really just highlight for the committee when we are considering this, we also think about some of the challenges of family reunion, some of the lessons that we have learned around that and trying to build into the process much earlier on on behalf of families right to be together. As has been pointed out, a lot of people will want to go home but when they are going to be able to go home and when they are going to be able to have houses it doesn't mean that families who are separated may want to come together. The sponsorship scheme, the accommodations will all make that challenging, but I think that if we could learn the lesson and I am happy to share some of the work that we have done offline with the committee, I just really want to put it down a marker that family reunion will be an important step in this process once families are here an important part of people being able to recover from trauma. Thanks very much, convener and Mark for the question. We have put in a supplementary evidence on this and to be honest we have been really hammering this issue the plight of seasonal workers across the UK who are Ukrainian nationals as Andy rightly said in many ways the seasonal workers scheme randomly UK government which is basically as many of us know which is for fruit picking and vegetable picking and farms across different parts of the UK, particularly in the south of England the east of England and also particularly disproportionately in the east of Scotland also. We think that it is a problematic scheme anyway regardless of the tied nature of the work and the fact that there are very severe restrictions placed upon individuals where they essentially get a certificate of sponsorship from a sponsored employment agency that is self-contracted by the UK Government and that certificate of sponsorship is very tight on its restrictions and what the worker can do so they need to work in a particular form of work and in practice that needs on the farm that they are placed by the agency they have no recourse to public funds as Andy rightly said we can't take supplementary employment up to 20 hours a week which is available to some other visa routes and the accommodation is almost always a farm caravan often shared and some of the other nationalities in much lower numbers compared to Ukrainians are people from across Central Europe so from Russia from Belarusians Moldovans etc and people come in a six month visa they need to go back out of the country before they can apply for another visa it's not set up with workers' rights in mind to put it bluntly it's not what you would do if you were designing a workers' rights team so what we think became particularly, actually we just think it's a hidden scandal at the moment and we're really glad that you're asking about it Mark is that we have we estimate low thousands across the UK of Ukrainian nationals stuck on farms placed there by four sponsored employment agencies and they cannot, amongst other restrictions, bring their family over they don't have their own accommodation so they can't go for the home to the Ukrainian scheme they're not in the scope of the Ukrainian family scheme as we are asking they urgently should be placed by the UK Government as articulating a supplementary evidence and they are basically trapped at the moment and I'm sure mental health is really suffering I'm sure that people are suffering in silence I'm sure that there's a a growing risk which I think maybe Andy can speak to in terms of cases of people falling into destitution either because it works just not there in the scheme or it's just to come intolerable for them and of course if somebody leaves that farm sponsored employment agency then immediately they are reaching the terms of a visa and that may not result currently in them being returned thankfully to your case of course so that would be egregious but nonetheless if somebody's fallen out of there of cases of people falling into destitution the Home Office know more about these workers than it pretty much any other person because of the level of restrictions and intrusions into their lives the Home Office are condoning this at the moment there's no other way to put it they're condoning it the invasion's been for about a month now they know exactly where these workers are they know that the Ukrainians they know the restrictions they can't bring family over and they're deciding not to actually move those families out of rights they can end it practically the Ukraine family scheme so that they can bring family over they can have freedom of work they can start to do what anybody in this situation they're refugees that's what they are their circumstances have changed generally and drastically at home that they should be able to do but they should try and rebuild their lives and their families lives here in the UK and start to cope with some of the issues that are affecting them so this needs to be done yesterday and it hasn't been and it needs to be done now by the UK Government and I would urge the committee to write urgently within the next day or so on this issue to the Home Secretary and to the level and up secretary and ideally publicise that letter saying please act now on this because if not we're going to see more people suffering severe mental health deterioration more people falling into destitution and more people suffering in real time the loss of their family members because they cannot do anything about it this is no time for working around the edges of how can we deal with labour market shortages the Government can deal with that the paramount concern and the overaction concern must be to get Ukrainian nationals out of this scheme into the Ukrainian family scheme and anything short of that isn't good enough and it needs to be sorted out I think we just need to be really clear on this one That's really powerful Andy, do you have anything you want to add to that in terms of practical advice and support for people? I'll just add one or two things to what Graeme said I agree with the points that he made significant difficulties around the fact that seasonal workers are not eligible for the homes of the Ukrainian scheme or the Ukrainian family scheme they are Ukrainian nationals they're in the UK, they're in Scotland and the only reason why they can't sponsor family or indeed apply to these schemes themselves is because of the type of visa that they're on it's actually quite extraordinary when you just break it down to that You asked about some of the specific examples of things we've seen on the ground but through the legal advice we've been providing over the last month some of the issues some examples of the requests for help have included a farmer seeking advice about two Ukrainian couples who work for him who have children in Ukraine and they've got no way to bring them here that is extraordinary a seasonal worker who fled very poor working conditions and has been offered a job elsewhere but they can't take it because of seasonal worker scheme a woman on a seasonal worker visa here in Scotland on a farm that don't have enough work for her for the rest of the year that's why it's a seasonal worker scheme because the work peaks and troves so the visas have been extended by the Government to December but there's not enough work and they can't move jobs and finally a seasonal worker separated from his unmarried partner who's in Ukraine but he cannot sponsor these are the types of things we're seeing come through the scheme is trapping people inside it with no access to benefits, no sickness and disability benefit no ability to change jobs and then it's outsourcing the responsibility for their welfare their accommodation their wellbeing on employers so even the best intention employer in the world is having a really difficult time with this but I want to so the level of advice is fairly large I mean that just right Scotland we're working just now on establishing a project specifically targeting seasonal workers at some of these issues and including exploitation and I just want to touch on exploitation before I finish I'm absolutely right to raise this over the past few years we have seen unfortunately exploitative practices in this industry the seasonal worker scheme to be honest with you is a bit of a golden goose for exploitative work practices if you are an employer in the legitimate industry looking to exploit people it's a bit of a it's a real aid in that unfortunately and I think that the more people are pushed towards desperation then the more likely they are to be exploited that is not a controversial thing to say that's common sense and we see it time and time and time again this idea that you can maybe exit the situation and claim asylum for example is for the birds asylum claims aren't being registered until June and then you can wait years for a decision during which time you may be able to keep working on that particular visa but remember here with that employer who doesn't have enough work and you can't change job if you do leave that then you're on asylum support and you're in the £6 a day territory and we all know what the story looks like there but trafficking and exploitation is a really important point and seasonal workers are our target but more broadly I think it's really important for the committee to understand that trafficking and exploitation and safeguarding issues in general are super important for the Scottish public authorities to be aware of in the more broader context and this also needs a gendered analysis I think when we're thinking about this because predominantly the individuals coming through the homes of Ukraine scheme for example are women and children what safeguarding is there what vetting is there around the sponsors now the super sponsor scheme is great in the sense that it's mitigating some of that because the Scottish Government is the sponsor and we then have control but more broadly how do we know who's going where and I hope the committee wants to discuss this a little bit more and I can go into further detail but we don't know exactly how the sponsors are vetted we don't necessarily know who they are or their background checks to disclosure of Scotland have a role how many times can they apply if you're a trafficker and we need to think about these individuals as business organisations can you just keep applying to the scheme to bring over more people these questions are really important for us at the local level to be aware of because fundamentally the obligations around protecting, identifying supporting victims of trafficking is a devolved issue and is the responsibility of Scottish public authorities but I think we need to focus on safeguarding this session but I'll stop there just now thank you very much and thank you for those specific examples which really bring home the human impact that is happening we have got a session with the minister after this panel and I'm sure some of those issues will be raised with him around the safeguarding and disclosure and hopefully we'll get some more information on that I want to go back to Ms Minto who was wanting to ask about the previous settled schemes thank you convener and thank you panel and as Clare Adamson has just said thank you for sharing these with us I represent Argyllun Bute and the island of Bute welcomed Syrian families over and I was speaking to one of the third sector organisations about lessons learnt from that from their perspective they talked to me about the additions that their community received the additional benefits called incredible edible where Syrian families came and brought their ways of cooking different vegetables and that was a really good cohesive event and project one of the concerns that was raised with me was where Argyllun Bute council did a fantastic job and provided a lot of support for learning English for example but perhaps there was a maybe a lack of recognition that people learn at different speeds so the younger people were learning very quickly where the older people that came families were a bit slower so I was interested when Andy talked about the form filling and getting through the different procedures so I just like your thoughts if possible on what we've learnt, what we can do better and I'll finish there so I don't know, Mary do you want to start? Thank you Yes, you're right we do have a lot of the learning I think we both here in Scotland and across the UK we've run different schemes and had welcomes for everybody I think that the fundamentals and I'll leave aside the matching process and the hosting which is obviously a little bit of a topic on its own but I think whether it's a virtual welcome programme or an actual welcome programme and different people respond in different ways I think that having a space for four or five days and a programme which actually introduces people to the country which takes them through some of the benefits which gives them just a bit of headspace to think about what they need and what their matching might be I think that if we're thinking of trying to match people up then actually doing it when they're in a quite a traumatic situation in terms of what they want so I think that there's a lot of evidence that would say sometimes some of these reception centres can work quite effectively for a lot of people and it has to be a person's choice not family I think that health, the immediate bit around a lot of these people are vulnerable a lot of the people that are displaced have very young babies or pregnant, disabilities or older people so I think that some kind of immediate bit around people's health needs and the challenges we're going to have and being able to respond to that I think that the issues around trauma the issues around meeting immediate needs cash based systems of people's dignity and choice in terms of meeting their needs accommodation needs what is going to be your immediate needs but I think in terms of the host families what support are they going to get to help people I think that you've articulated really well how people became part of communities and sometimes that we've seen what happened in Covid how people stood up and responded and want to help but sometimes that can be a little bit unrealistic around the hosting programme so I think we have to build in both the safeguarding elements the support to families but the fact that people will want to move on and move into their own space and be their own family so what is a short term and a medium term solution I think access to benefits access to education thinking about employment are all things that will happen down the line and I think we have to let people move at different places but I think this is a huge challenge and I think the Government local authorities, third sector and the community sector will have to work together on this and I think we'll certainly submit into the committee some of our learning we've run the schemes in Northern Ireland and other places and we've got some evaluations and licence that we will send into the committee that are currently involved in some of the working groups but I think that the key bits is we have to recognise that initial trauma the immediate needs give people a bit of space and recognise that some things will unfold from that and some of those first instincts won't be right if people do move into temporary accommodation and it's a challenge at the moment there are a lot of people still stuck in hotel schemes from other schemes but we don't want to fail to learn from the fact that these are only very short-term solutions so I would suggest we do a bit of a wrap-down support in the initial stages help people make their initial plans that should be integrated it should involve health benefits children's education we should be looking at cash-based assistance and we do need to see what is a temporary solution and people's ability to move on from that and as I mentioned earlier concerns about family will be critical for people and the need for people to be able to connect with each other as our displace group and I think particularly when people go to more rural areas they may be welcomed by these communities but they need the ability to connect into some of the specialist services and those groups in terms of making their stay work thank you your last point ties into a conversation that I was having earlier this week about if a rural community welcomes Ukrainian families perhaps from a similar setting would they integrate would that be better because it's so you're not going from the city centre of Mariapol into Glendyrul and Argyllun but for example perhaps you can match where people are fleeing from so that was very helpful thank you Graham, do you have anything to add? Yeah, I mean all of what Mari said in terms I mean it made me think of we'll share our evaluations of the Scottish Refugee Integration Service that's ran for the 10 years which is very much about making sure people are safe immediate needs met access to the right social security health assessments and then working with people for a personal integration plan to each individual is a co-offer with an integration adviser to do that and this has mainly been through the asylum system but it's been transferred to work with people who have came over from Syria and working also from Afghanistan more recently and it will be the same with UK, and we're really pleased that you know we've become in the practice that you know Mari was talking about and what we are talking about the integration service as well as the centrality of really person-centred legal work that Just Right specialised in is at the heart of the Scottish response to this and I say that because I suppose it's a marker that learning is happening that is actually learning that is being encouraged by the Scottish Government's leadership in relation to what's happening in Ukraine that was really noticeable a month or so ago but they were on it and said how can we design a Scottish response that's consistent with the new Scottish refugee integration strategy as best as it can integration from day one and that is about this word empathy what we see in the Scottish response and the Wales response so far is like trying to do that mindset shift to walk in the shoes of the person who's in that and what did they need not when you bring down what we think and often it's really well intentioned of course it is it's not criticised that but we need to dial that down and we need to dial up empathy and we need to go right what did people need in that and that obviously as I think Mari spoke about earlier on is you need to take live the experience seriously to talk and learn because people get insights that we don't have that have not been displaced and then use that as your evidence learn the lessons from what's went wrong in the past if you look at the plight of many Afghan families stuck across the UK 12,000 including about 600 or 300, 400 in Scotland stuck in home office hotels that are not temporary in there for six or seven months that's something that we want to avoid happening in relation to people from Ukraine so I suppose it's all of all of that stuff I just wanted to make a point about Super Sponsor if that's okay which is a really important intervention because it's coming from a place of empathy it's coming from a place about how can we put a system in place which has the weight off the shoulders of the new arrivals who really don't need to be doing these forms in order to stay it so that's firstly there also takes the weight off the sponsors who are really wanting to give self-contained accommodation or rooms and the Scottish Government's saying no we want you to do that but we're going to help you do that we're going to support you to do that and this isn't a political point this is grounded in evidence this is how you do it is you work with the community that you're trying to help and you listen and learn from them and then you design your response in relation to that so we've got basically Scotland reception arrangements getting constructed right now to welcome people coming in from Ukraine across different entry points multi-agency services provision of temporary accommodation get those essential services in place then work up a plan with that person and the local authority about how and where somebody can go and people can be involved in that process and this is really important for integration because it's not okay if you just have a whole range of people going to certain areas because that does have impacts on amongst other things there's a lot of children coming over and what's really important for children who are in conflict one of the most important things is to get children into education as soon as possible get that structure into a child's life the evidence tells us to get that relative normality into their life so that they can be children again not refugees, children and we can play and we can have all the nourishing experiences that we want any child to have so we commend the Scottish Government approach not at all for political reasons but absolutely because it's grounded in evidence and it's empathising with the needs of the people themselves and I actually think and I hope that what will ultimately happen is that it will become the model for the homes from Ukraine across the UK because we need to do this together we can't have situations which is currently in the worst case scenarios at risk of happening elsewhere in the UK of people really being well intentioned given their homes or rooms and then as any human relationship relationships might break down or the person who's coming in might feel overwhelmed and sometimes paralysed but they need to be feeling gratitude when actually what they really need to do going back to empathy is respect the dignity of that person and the fact that they will want at some point to have their own accommodation where they can know that they can have their dinner when they want to have their dinner they can ask the kids to do their homework when they want to do that and not feel that kind of like understandable very human sense of duty which over time and this is the serious point of support but the serious point is people are going to be living with quite complex trauma they may be hearing of tragedies as they're living in homes right there now it's a bit much to ask of I think individuals who have kindly given up their homes to be dealing with some of that without adequate support and this isn't a kind of like unlikely thing this is likely to happen given what's happening in Ukraine at the moment so it really needs to be that on-going support and we're confident we're seeing that in Scotland and Wales but hopefully it will come round that way in terms of England but I've spoken to some local authorities in England only this week and they're concerned because they don't really know exactly what's happening who's been moved into their areas through the homes of the Ukraine scheme and of course the worst-case scenario is the risk of destitution or exploitation and as Andy eloquently said that is a real risk people will target that in mind it takes what will target this type of scheme because they see low checks and go okay we need to think about that so in terms of the homes of Ukraine the super sponsor concept and practice is the way forward in relation to that and I really hope that that is what becomes the norm across the UK thank you, thank you Graham and Andy have you got anything to add I just wanted to add a couple of points drawing on our learning from terrain in the Afghan schemes but also the Dubs amendment and the national transfer scheme which were scheme specifically for unaccompanied miners being placed in different local authorities across Scotland because I think that's the point as you pointed out local authorities that perhaps haven't historically had high numbers in terms of a refugee community are now going to need to respond and I think we need to think very carefully about that the homes of Ukraine scheme more broadly is an outsourcing of responsibility to the British public and that's why we really welcome the Scottish Government's super sponsor idea because it's kind of taking back control to an extent there there's always a role for a well-funded our sponsor scheme but really it's on the state because that's where the international obligations are and the moral and ethical as well as legal obligations are and we have some good examples of that we have Glasgow City Council operate a supported carer scheme for unaccompanied miners works very closely with the Scottish guardianship service a great scheme where unaccompanied miners live in the homes of families within the community but there are some it's operated by social work services and there are some fairly robust safeguards there I mean let's talk about safeguards I don't just mean I don't want to get this idea that we're worried about predators predatory sponsors etc we've spoken a little bit about that but more generally as Graham said we need to help the community to expect the community to house and look after or support traumatised individuals where there are language barriers and things like that is a lot to ask and so the state really needs to be clear that it's there in order to provide support the young people I work with the Children's Scotland families are supported the Children's Scotland that are safeguarding protocols there to help with a relationship breakdown and so the local authorities need to be ready for that to provide support to the communities Graham said very importantly there I don't know how the local authorities are supposed to know how many people are coming into their areas we can maybe determine numbers through the super sponsor scheme if people are applying under homes for the Ukrainian scheme writ large outside the super sponsor scheme then it's difficult to measure the need and therefore plan you could get 50 under the super sponsor and then 50 that I didn't know about under the broader scheme it doesn't know and I think that's probably something that needs to be discussed in the next panel our experience from the national transfer scheme with children and the Dove's amendment is that it's wonderful when individuals are brought in to the communities and there are so many success stories within those schemes and the Syrian scheme as well what I would say is that the provision of support services, language, education housing is vital because without it what we see with my clients is isolation and exacerbates mental health and trauma they can receive the best care in the world in ex-local authority but if all the communities in another part of the country and all the language services and all the health services are in another part of the country then it's really challenging that's not a criticism of local authorities that hasn't been the need or the resource to build services in this area but if we're going down this road which I welcome then we need to make sure we do it properly or else it can really end in a difficult situation for the individuals themselves and the spotters as well a final note on housing I really welcome that the Scottish Government has committed to providing temporary housing before then matching or moving into the communities hotel accommodation as I understand is the current solution to that temporary stage and I understand that as an emergency response the learning from the afghan scheme and the asylum process writ large is that hotel accommodation needs to be used for the shortest possible time because its consequences even in the medium term can be devastating in terms of exacerbating trauma and so I think we should really prioritise that for all the reasons that Graham and Mary have said as well relating to integrity and dignity but I just wanted to be to be very clear on that and our learning from NTS and Dubs and Syrian scheme that's what it tells us and to me listen to the individuals who have been through processes Graham's comment about lived experiences is critical they can tell you what this is all about thank you very much Andy thank you I'm just conscious that about time at the moment if we could have succinct answers it would be really helpful although just appreciate there's a lot you've all got to advise us on this morning thank you Mr Cameron very struck by what Andy just said there about language because I think language issues are really important to highlight and also welcome what Mary said about the various challenges other challenges that exist around accommodation, healthcare et cetera my question is how confident is the panel that local authorities are prepared and ready for the influx of refugees and particularly if you can answer on some national basis I appreciate you are all in different areas et cetera but I was struck by what was said about difference between rural and urban areas et cetera but I just wondered what you think of the state of preparedness is effectively and can I start with Graham please thank you Donald there's a really pertinent question at the context from our perspective at Scottish Refugee Council it's very dynamic this situation so there's always going to be a level I think of it's not going to be ideal so we can't let the desperate any of the good that kind of caveat there the reason of one of the other reasons that we do like the super sponsor scheme an intervention if in the context of the wider homes for Ukraine scheme is it's trying to build in some order to the process and by that I mean just in terms of the detail we know that if someday for example I apply in the homes for Ukraine portal at the UK level which is the portal and I can put the Scottish Government I can put my details in the property etc there and then basic information like the name postcode in the property would then be passed over to the Scottish Government if in particular if I mark Scottish Government as the sponsor then that will make it even more simpler within that and I suppose what that does is it gives a kind of like the local authority the Scottish Government the local authority a chance to have conversations about OK with such amount of offers within this local authority area in that local authority area so there's an ability to start trying to plan about what is the potential supply of accommodation within our local authority area that's coming through the UK portal within Scotland and how does that sit and if I was in a local authority I would be asking you'd have to ask the questions around what's our capacity in health what's our capacity in education so the way I would see that is that basic information sharing is really really crucial and this is some of the things I was talking about local authorities in England as they were a bit concerned because they're not in that place because this can happen outside of it which is one of the kind of practical policy reasons why they'd like that level of information to be coming to local authorities for us the UK through the homes of the UK portal just so that they can plan about supply of accommodation and then hopefully the likelihood of people so you can actually start to root people into accommodation which is actually in different local authority areas in this case in Scotland that fits with the local authority's own services demands and etc so I think that the level of preparedness is evolving if I was honest I think it's evolving and we can't let the best be the best for anybody good but we do need to have the weight of the state in government involved in this which is why we like what the Scottish Government are doing and that of course local government is an integral part of government across the UK and they need to be involved in our senses they are becoming involved in this now and they will be absolutely critical for the bulk of people's lives once they move out as we hope super short temporary accommodation that ports into the local authority area and ideally their own accommodation that they can then build their own lives in perhaps after an initial period with somebody that's kindly given a room or self-contained accommodation so that that kind of gradual process that's moving on so yeah I don't know if that answers the level of preparedness I think it's evolving and I think there's something really important practically about the super sponsor arrangement because it enables a conversation to happen between local and in this case Scottish Government and we really need that because otherwise we could have a lot of people going to different areas in local authorities responding when actually what we need is an orderly process so that local authorities can plan and support people with charities because at the end of the day what matters is that it's a good experience for both the sponsor and that will clear it and particularly the family or the individual that is coming in Andy In the interests of time I will defer to Graeme and Mary on this question because British Red Cross and the Scottish Refugee Council or the best police answer this and I don't have much to add to what Graeme said OK, Mary I'll try and be really brief I think we have to recognise I think everybody is trying to act quickly I think there are national groups and I think the Scottish Government has set out to include the third sector and community sector in the learnings and the shapings of that I think people's control over the numbers, the knowledge and the learning it is going to as Graeme said I think there is a challenge of the current pressure from things like mental health services education access to ESOL we have to look at the reality of those and how we are actually going to fund there isn't going to be an easy solution to suddenly escalating these up even where we know the needs so I think we know we are already creaking in most of the areas where we need support and help we know there are a lot of refugees currently stuck in the system unable to access some of that I think the funding package that will support local authorities the need to support areas outwith the central belt where there may be specialist services special supports in terms of mental health the need to kind of spread that out are quite critical is something that we have to try and build on an on-going basis but I don't think there is going to be any easy answer to it and I think we have to look at the funding commitment beyond year 1 because this isn't going to be something that is going to just shift really quickly or easily Thank you for those answers Thank you Mr Golden Thank you and thank you panel for the evidence so far I'm quite interested in what we can do in Scotland to support refugees clearly this is the Scottish Parliament and our role is to scrutinise and assist Scotland in the Scottish Government so I was quite interested Donald Cameron touched on the funding and the physical support but I wonder if you can outline what support is available in this space and how the third sector can help to facilitate that and perhaps if we start with Mari I think that probably both ourselves and the Scottish Refugee Council have experience of offering psychosocial support and trauma support there are some specialist agencies around who are doing that I think the need to expand and fund that and I think somebody's point about how do we maybe prepare some toolkits for other people for schools, for other people in terms of knowing what to look at knowing how to approach and broach issues are things that we can look at doing so I think that the trauma is apparent now it's apparent as people are coming through the border countries it will be quite quickly people are received and welcomed some of the other issues might emerge particularly around having lost home, family, separation the anxieties about the future there is a definite need I think we have to recognise the genuine challenge to our existing waiting lists around mental health provision but I think the investment and looking at how we train and develop that support in some of our current specialist providers to maybe shape some of that would be important and really making sure that it's accessible out with the cities if we are going to be placing people around the country Thanks for that Andy, do you have any comments? Yes, I would just add our experience of working with clients and navigating through their emotional needs and mental health tells us that it has to be seen as something that works hand in glove with the other services that are around so for example the legal service that we provide is a very intensive legal service it's trauma informed, it's child centred, it's gender it has a gendered analysis and very often I will need to stop engaging with our client for a period of time so that they can access trauma therapy and then when they feel better they can re-engage but the good legal service isn't just a line where it's a constant engagement it peaks and troughs with the needs of the individuals and that applies not just to engaging with lawyers but engaging with other services to be honest with you trauma specialist mental health care in Scotland pretty limited at this moment in time we have amazing initiatives within the third sector the guardianship service the refugee council the Red Cross organisations that govern community project made a hill integration network they provide a community based that grass-roots organisations are providing support on the ground level in the best way they can within their resources if I think about CAMHS you probably know well the issues around waiting lists there I'm thinking about the Glasgow psychological trauma service which is an NHS based service within Glasgow that in and of itself does amazing work but there's a waiting list now that's long and the service is only for the Glasgow region my clients that I work with more broadly across Scotland struggle to access this I had a conversation a few months ago with a social worker where I had to stop engaging with a client because he was telling us guardian and a social worker and me I can't do this right now that I need help and in the area and in all of the surrounding local authorities there was not a single provision of psychological trauma support and that's because already the demand hasn't necessarily been there historically but it is now and I think we need to be quite innovative in how we react to that it needs to be well resourced but I'm thinking perhaps local authorities work together in order to provide a regional there are lots of ideas on the table and I think that local authorities should be encouraged to think about that because the workers on the ground the social workers for example you know it's hard for them where they're being asked for help and they literally can't provide it because there isn't anything so I think that as we expand resettiment schemes across the country this needs to be prioritised Thank you Andy Graham do you have any thoughts Yeah I mean I hear what Mary and Andy said I think that the Scottish Government need to apply their national psychological trauma framework which is there it's precisely for populations such as the women and children presumably that will be coming over from Ukraine so that's all about building capacity trauma informed or trauma skilled services and that's what we're going to need because as we know about the waiting list very much in the specialist interventions and when people have got to that point it means that prevention has failed or you know so I suppose my kind of practical recommendation in the short term would be there needs to be a real utilisation funding and utilisation for capacity building from specialist organisations to the front line workers including charities and that so that we have a trauma informed approach and then longer term we start to build up the capacity within the specialist services it will not only be needed for people this is a wider point not only for people that have come from Ukraine as well as people other refugee populations but people in Scotland as well because they have been waiting list too in relation to these services but maybe if the Ukraine refugee issue is something it is one of those moments where it concentrates on the kind of government to say we need to really up the psychological training trauma framework so that capacity builds we can spread that trauma informed knowledge but then it also builds in some greater specialist capacity because it is going to be needed and that's a big thing for everybody because at the moment the waiting list that I can assume tomorrow amongst other things that the prevention has made we need that too long thank you Graham, thank you panel back to you convener thank you and just another weenage that we are up against our time limit at the moment so but if I could bring in Mr Sweeney thanks thank you convener I was particularly struck by the description of the plight of people on the seasonal worker scheme and the implications that the current situation has for them I would just like to ask Mr Sill in particular it's great that the Ukraine Advice Scotland system has been set up I just wonder how easy it has been to actually reach people on the farms and in these locations where they are physically restricted to these sites has that been something that's been relatively straightforward as the Home Office has been co-operative in terms of providing the relevant information of where they're located so I can give you our experience of setting up Ukraine Advice Scotland thus far and the work we're intending to do around reaching seasonal workers Ukraine Advice Scotland at this moment in time is an email advice inbox with a helpline that runs twice a week we are monitoring it in the short term alongside the funders to make sure that further resource can be allocated to it as demand increases demand will develop over the period of time at this moment in time a lot of our queries are relating to the sponsorship schemes and people coming in once people are in then the queries will become more complex we are separately working through our ant-trafficking and exploitation specialist team in working with other organisations for example Flex in trying to reach out and engage with seasonal workers I think the sponsors are a key gateway because there are only four sponsors organisation in the UK they are a key gateway for us to engage with and work is underway just now in order to try and reach those workers the advice we've seen through the Ukraine Advice Scotland and its predecessor that was UK wide a pro bono scheme for volunteer lawyers was very much people coming because they have a problem and they were lucky enough to find us I worry about those who weren't and so further outreach really needs to be done on that front and we need therefore the co-operation of the lawyers Home Office has not been particularly forthcoming yet in my experience although I'll probably defer to Graham for specific answer on that statistics do not tell us where they are they tell us what countries they come from and all sorts of other things but they don't tell us exactly where they are and so further work definitely needs to be prioritised in this area and that's something we're working on now Do you want to come in very briefly on that? Sure The Home Office hasn't been co-operative on this and that's why we've come to the four sponsor employment agencies and hopefully they'll be able to facilitate their outreach working and it's just to mention there's a wider advice line that we have at Scottish Energy Council for people relating to the Ukrainian situation that's 24-7 so it's just to mention that and I'll send on the details after and it will also run community-based information sessions for people as well remotely but hopefully in time in person as well so that people can get more information but on the seasonal workers as I said in my main comments it's a hidden scandal it's genuinely a scandal what's happening and it does need to be prioritised and if the committee were able to write an urgent letter to the two Secretary of State that I mentioned that would be very valuable to happen because we really need to state to lift the weight and actually put people into a set of rights we've suggested that the Ukraine family scheme would be an appropriate place because otherwise people will even with the best outreach advocacy people will will not be reached and yeah it's an intolerable situation I think people have been left in thank you thank you I just want to ask one more based on that one of the key issues with the seasonal worker schemes obviously no recourse to public funds a major menace in so many aspects of immigration asylum cases I just wondered whether you felt that there were mechanisms or opportunities for the Scottish Government to enhance the provisions for support of those subject to no recourse to public funds there are potentially ways around the restrictions do you have any particular and specific proposals or ideas and just open that to the floor maybe start with Marie the Red Cross is currently funded by the Scottish Government to deliver a crisis fund for people with no recourse to public funds currently that scheme was under way last year midway last year so we could certainly that's a time limited scheme so it will be due to be reviewed but that was particularly set up because people with no recourse to public funds couldn't apply to things like the Scottish welfare fund so I suppose one of the things is to look at the criteria of existing funds but certainly there is also the potential to advertise and increase the other scheme the minister will be able to ask him this question as well Paul can I ask him and if he wants to come in to be very very succinct please game my point would be we have a national anti-destitution strategy this is a population of Ukrainians in temporary visas including particularly seasonal work visas that are now at increased acute risk of destitution Scottish Government need to apply with the anti-destitution strategy to this risk group of people that have become destitute I think they are in some ways through the funding of Ukraine in the Vice Scotland some of the funding they put Scottish Refugee Council for integration advice but it is something that is what the strategy is designed for and I would be looking for the Scottish Government to apply that strategy to this risk of destitution effect in the Ukrainian temporary visa holders especially the seasonal work holders in Scotland we know that they are in a particular sector they are the Scottish Government with hope and expect are trying to engage themselves with and perhaps the minister could ask the questions on that about the work that they are doing in relation to the agricultural sector within Scotland because a very important point of course the public fund is indeed a menace and it's one of the reasons we need to get these workers out of this minister said my point is very short and sweet critical to remember with no recourse to public funds is that if it isn't on the list which is contained in immigration rules then it's not a public fund for the purposes of NRPF and there are plenty of things not on that list so a key issue we see in practice is a misunderstanding around that services that any division of services in the state is a public fund and that's not the case so we have existing tools to use in order to provide accommodation and natural support in emergency situations to individuals not just women and children but destitute seasonal workers as well and we should ensure that we do use those thank you thank you very much for attending this morning, I'm going to move swiftly on I'm going to suspend for a strict five minutes and I hope to be back just before half past ten thank you welcome back and can move to our next agenda item where we welcome for the first time to committee in his new role Neil Gray, Minister for Culture, Europe and International Development and also Minister for Special Responsibility for Refugees from Ukraine he's joined online officials, Alison Byrne director of equality inclusion in human rights and John Primrose deputy director of international division and can I look forward to working with you on this issue going forward minister and I believe you have a short opening statement for us thank you very much indeed convener, good morning colleagues when I was appointed as minister just two months ago I couldn't have ever predicted that my first committee appearance would be to discuss these matters that we're discussing today just four weeks ago Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine unleashed death destruction and the displacement of up to 10 million people within the country and abroad Scotland stands in resolute solidarity with the Ukrainian people and the Scottish government is committed to playing its full part in the global humanitarian effort and in offering a warm welcome safety and sanctuary to the displaced people who desperately need it in the short time since we knew the UK government were introducing a visa scheme to allow displaced people to find refuge within the UK we have worked rapidly and constantly with a range of partners to set up our warm scots welcome program and supersponsor scheme linking into the UK government's visa and homes for Ukraine scheme we've chosen to act as a supersponsor to short circuit the matching process and enable significant numbers of displaced Ukrainians to come to Scotland without necessary delay to prepare for that we have established welcome hubs to support displaced Ukrainians arriving into Edinburgh, Glasgow and Cairn Ryan where all those who need it will find safe and comfortable accommodation and a hot meal and where local partnerships are already in place to make an assessment of need for additional services we have also published supporting information on the Scottish government website translated into Ukrainian and Russian to let people know what to expect and how to get here the complex needs and human rights of those fleeing the atrocities in Ukraine are our number one priority we have developed a multi agency approach to assess and meet those needs with wraparound support provided through the welcome hubs and welcome packs in Ukrainian will provide information on accessing a range of support translators will be on hand to help and trauma experts on call we are working flat out to secure temporary and longer term accommodation for those who need it in addition to the generous offers of thousands of Scots who have opened their hearts and their homes partnership is and must be at the heart of our approach we are working closely with key partners including local government, the Scottish Refugee Council and Police Scotland as well as the Ukrainian and Polish consoles in Scotland to coordinate plans and address challenges for their tireless work and close cooperation and I also want to thank my Scottish Government officials in particular across Government they have been working day and night to get the super sponsor route in place and to scale up our response we are also working in very close partnership with UK Government particularly the home office and the levelling up department urgent work is under way to enable sharing of data from UK Government systems including visa application systems so we can understand who is coming as early as possible finally, on funding we have committed to £4 million in humanitarian aid for Ukraine of which UNICEF will receive £1 million in addition we have provided substantial amount of medical supplies and equipment from NHS Scotland we are providing over 13 million pounds of funding to support local authorities provide accommodation and meet longer term needs and in addition we have provided to the Scottish Refugee Council for the expansion of its refugee integration service this funding is in addition to the £10,500 of funding per resettled Ukrainian that the UK Government will provide to local authorities to support sufficient provision of services though we do not yet know how or when that will be delivered Scotland has a wealth of experience in offering sanctuary and working with our partners through the new scott strategy and tested approach to integrating displaced people into our communities but we know the scale of the task now is new and we have many challenges to face ahead we are committed to continue to work with our partners to ensure Ukrainians will be welcomed and supported with access to the care and services they need as the First Minister said at the weekend we will treat people with compassion, dignity and respect and Scotland will be their home for as long as they need it to be Thank you very much Minister and on that note of passion, dignity and respect for refugees coming here and as one who has experienced a resettlement scheme in North Lanarkshire which I'm sure you're very familiar with as a parliamentarian for that area and how successful that was particularly for Syrian refugees I do have a concern about the level of media that is stressed in some of these cases Dinipro kids have been one of them and we've talked about how welcoming and the Scottish people stepping up to welcome people and that's a long standing relationship between a football club and Heaps football club and Dinipro kids and they've been able to build on that relationship however how do we ensure that those coming have their privacy their dignity and their respect and that they're given the space and time to deal with resettling First of all I want to commend Dinipro kids for the work that they have done I think that that should go without saying but I think that we should be reminding ourselves of the phenomenal work that has gone in to get the children here and I'm very pleased that they are here In more general terms for everybody arriving in Scotland that we are respecting their privacy and ensuring that the locations that they are going to be at and the routes by which they are arriving their privacy is respected and maintained and I concur with the concerns that you raised there and earlier on in the committee's deliberations with the previous panel I think understanding the fact that those people, particularly children have fled particularly traumatic experiences I think that we all need to be mindful of ensuring that when they arrive here that they are treated with dignity and respect and that they are allowed the time and the space to be able to recover well Thank you minister I've moved to questions from the committee and can I move first to mythmental Thank you convener and thank you minister You touched on in your opening statement about the experience that Scotland has from other crises like this like Clare Adamson's My constituency, Argyll and Bute welcomed Syrian families and I'm just interested to know what you feel we've learnt from that and how that might shape the way that we as a country welcome the Ukrainian families here Thank you convener I think that there are a number of lessons that we can learn first of all I'm incredibly proud that all 32 local authorities were involved in the resettlement of refugees from Syria and secondly the fact that partnership working was a key part of ensuring that success from UK Government, Scottish Government local authorities, the third sector there was a very clear partnership working approach that ensured that people were provided with the security that they needed the sanctuary that they required but also the long-term support reflecting on the convener and I in terms of our local area in North Lanarkshire I believe that there was a particularly strong model there for the Syrian scheme in terms of volunteer befriending networks so we've learnt from all of that and that is why we're keen in this scheme ensuring that we're doing everything possible to make sure that we're providing everything that people arriving from Ukraine going to be needing that we're following a very similar approach that partnership working is already established we have regular meetings at official and ministerial level with our colleagues in local government the public services and the third sector as I've outlined in my opening statement and we'll continue that approach because the success of this scheme is all of us working together and ensuring that we're providing the best for people arriving from Ukraine and anywhere else for that matter one of the panellists that we were speaking to prior to you coming in talked about co-ordination as well from the different schemes and if there was a concern of people Ukrainians coming in on one scheme and then perhaps on another as well how that was being co-ordinated so we are in constant dialogue with our colleagues in the UK government I had a meeting yesterday with Lord Harrington around ensuring that we have appropriate data being shared so that we have an awareness of people arriving from Ukraine as early as possible we're able to have contact details of them so that we can make early contact with them to ensure that they know what to expect, when to expect it and how this is going to work for them and I think ensuring that partnership approach that we get a proper flow of information is going to be absolutely critical to the success both myself the First Minister, Deputy First Minister Shora Robertson, Angus Robertson we're all engaged in ensuring and other ministers in other areas of government with responsibility for delivering public services are all engaged in ensuring that we are getting the information where it's needed and making sure that we're working in partnership with the UK government to get that through as quickly as possible thank you very much welcome to the minister for his first appearance in front of this committee can I just get a sense of how many people have arrived have people, refugees arrived in any significant number in Scotland I just appreciate where it's at the early stages but if you could give a sense of that that would be appreciated the honest answer that Mr Cameron is we don't know yet and that was part of the conversation that we're needing to have with Lord Harrington and others have been having with other UK government ministers is that the data flows have not started as the way that we would want them to start as yet we haven't got the information in place I don't believe that that is because the UK government is holding it back from us I just believe that the speed at which the system has been created from First Minister's conception on one Friday to launch the following Friday getting the system up and running has taken time but we are pressing very hard to ensure that we get that data to us as quickly as possible so that we are able to provide a bespoke service that allows people arriving here from Ukraine the comfort of knowing that we are making early contact with them to make sure they know what to expect and also to ensure that we have our services in place to be able to respond best as possible On a similar note are you worried that people for whatever reason might slip through the net that won't come into the welcome hubs that you mentioned or whatever do you think that you will catch everyone as it works? The first priority was to ensure and I'd be happy to take Alison Burn in here to maybe explain in more detail but we have put very clear systems in place at all the major hubs that we are expecting people to come through Edinburgh and Glasgow airports in Cairnryan, as you expect to ensure that there is a management process in place to make sure that we are identifying people arriving from Ukraine to ensure that they are pointed in the right direction, the welcome hubs are in place and ready and the majority of the people that have been arriving so far have been arriving with onward addresses already so they haven't been arriving through the super sponsor as far as we are aware as I said needs to flow. Alison I don't know if they've got anything further to add to what I've been able to outline there. I think that's absolutely right minister. There's a multi-agency approach on the ground. We've made sure that at all major points of entry into Scotland so Glasgow Edinburgh airport and the main train stations and Cairnryan that there are welcome hub arrangements in place working with the police, Transport Scotland and our local authority partners people coming in who require assistance will be identified and will be moved through into welcome hub arrangements and there's transport available to move people on to the welcome hubs and there's accommodation there if people need it as well as immediate support around triage in relation to their needs and aid food, clothing and other support. In the panel that we've just had there was some discussion about people who come in via the super sponsor scheme and might just come in through people signing up for the homes for Ukraine UK wide. How are you managing that particular issue? Again, we're keen that we get the data as quickly as possible on the super sponsor scheme. I note the panel earlier on were very complimentary of the fact that we'd managed to establish the super sponsor scheme and understood that to be as we'd intended to be a humane, a swifter approach that we get people here as quickly as possible but for that to work obviously we're still reliant on the UK immigration system working as quickly as possible to approve the initial visa application to get here which is why obviously we wanted visas to be waived initially that would have been our preferred approach but we're pleased that we've managed to get the super sponsor route in place and now making sure that we have a co-ordinated response is absolutely what we're gearing up towards but crucial to that is going to be having the data and having a very clear and live data flow to ensure that we're aware of how people are applying and when applications are approved so that we can then tailor our response accordingly. Thank you, convener. You mentioned the funding that has been allocated to the Scottish Refugee Council and others. Are they in receipt of that currently or what's the timescales for that being processed? Again, I'm happy to bring Alison Burn in here to confirm but my understanding is that all organisations that the local government funding is still to be dispersed still to be allocated on a system to be agreed with COSLA but my understanding is the other funding streams have been allocated. Alison, I don't know if you've got any further information on that in terms of the Refugee Council in particular. Money has been made available for this financial year and as you say, Minister, we're currently working with COSLA to agree the local authority settlement and the grant offer has been made to the Scottish Refugee Council to help them build their capacity. I was also wondering obviously there's the physical support required for refugees accommodation but there's likely to be emotional support and mental health support required in an already stretched service. I just wondered what conversations you've had to ensure that refugees can access this care. Mr Golden should be confident in the fact that we've had those conversations from a very early stage. We've been working with our partners in all aspects of public service to ensure in terms of accommodation needs where clearly there will be pressures as well. Also in terms of the more practical healthcare and mental health support and the trauma response that Mr Golden alludes to, we have been in dialogue with our partners in local government and the health service and third sector to ensure that we are able to respond effectively as quickly as possible and that starts from arrival. The discussions that we will have from a triage perspective will be looking at the immediate needs as the first discussion and then looking to a more in-depth discussion around their longer-term needs as well, but we're very alive to that and very keen to make sure that we are providing appropriate support as quickly as possible. Thank you minister. Back to you, convener. Thank you very much convener. I'm sure you caught minister some of the evidence that they're on today. I think there was some particularly moving evidence around the plight of Ukrainian seasonal workers in Scotland. I think we heard some specific examples of how people are trapped. They're trapped in the employment contracts that they're in. They're not able to bring their families over here and even if they did they're tied to certain forms of accommodation which are completely unsuitable as well. I take it that you acknowledge that and I suppose the question that follows on from that is what can change? Can you support, for example, the ability of those seasonal workers to move instantly from the temporary visas that they're on to the Ukraine family scheme? Alongside that are there other forms of support that can be brought in to support those workers and their families? Thank you, convener. I thank Mr Roskell for that question. Yes, I'm very alive to that situation. Discussions have been ongoing with the UK Government around workers that are here from Ukraine. I'm very conscious of the fact that their status here is precarious. It's linked to employment, as you've said, but that is seasonal by its very nature so therefore temporary. But also the fact that the ability to bring people, family members here is limited. The super sponsor scheme may well be helpful in terms of being able to bring people here but their immediate accommodation situation may not always be suitable for that to be possible. So we would absolutely and we are continuing to urge the UK Government to ensure that there is parity between people who are already here from Ukraine under that under a seasonal scheme with those who are arriving via the current resettlement programmes and give them the security and certainty of the three-year position that others are arriving with. And also we'll be looking to make sure that we continue to work with our partners to provide whatever support we can to those who are already here alongside those who are arriving and soon to arrive potential family members for instance. But Mr Ruskell is absolutely right. This is a very serious situation for those seasonal workers and we are alive to it and we're continuing our discussion and engagement with the UK Government who we hope will be able to step up and provide a parity of security for those people's position here in Scotland. That's very welcome. Has there been a conversation then also with the farming sector? Yes. You're obviously in a difficult position if you're an employer, you have large numbers of seasonal workers, it's part of your business but then there's this massive humanitarian need at the moment as well to support those families. So what can be done there to help the farming sector but also to help those families? Mr Ruskell is absolutely right. Conversations are on-going with farmers and we are aware of offers of support in terms of accommodation coming from some farmers linked and otherwise to those who have seasonal agricultural workers here already. Those conversations will continue and I have to say in all aspects of Scottish society I've been absolutely overwhelmed by the offers of support the feeling of solidarity and willingness to go above and beyond to ensure that we're providing the safety, security, sanctuary that people from Ukraine absolutely deserve and farming is not part of that as well. The farming sector has been incredible and I would expect that conversation to continue and make sure that we provide the support that they need to ensure that we can provide the support to people arriving from Ukraine. Finally, I wanted to ask about free public transport and I know that Mr Sweeney has been very vocal on this issue as well so I'm sure he'll have questions too but I had a specific question about the introduction of free public transport for those seeking asylum, those of refugee status as well. I think it's really important that this is not restricted just to Ukrainian people but from people from across the world so a confirmation that you're considering that would be very useful about the eligibility of free travel and then also there is a concern that the home office and I hope this is unjustified but there's a concern that the home office may attempt to try and claw back money from those that are getting those types of universal free benefits so if you could confirm whether that is a justified concern or not, hopefully it's not. The first part of Mr Roskell's question is something that's under consideration and paid tribute to colleagues on the table who have been working on this and on the second part we are in constant dialogue and colleagues on the committee will be aware of the SIs that were laid this week in order to provide ensure that people arriving from Ukraine have access to public funds in Scotland including social security so that work has been moved at that pace and to be fair the UK Government have done likewise so I'm hopeful that from a financial perspective people will have access to the support that they're going to need and on the public transport side we're considering all those options okay thanks before moving on minister you mentioned again about the seasonal workers one of the concerns from the earlier panel was that they don't know who the seasonal workers are so in this situation with the third sector is having to step in and support someone who's in financial need or has not been able to maintain an employment and accommodation status we don't know who these people are is that something you have discussed with the UK Government as well about access to that data and if the Scottish Government gets it and you know the numbers are you able to share some of that information with the third sector organisations that we fund to support people? those conversations are on-going in all aspects thank you very much if I could move to Mr Sweeney please thank you thank you I'd just like to say I really appreciate the tone on the bus passing there's a real spirit of collaboration certainly conversations that have been had by colleagues with ministers have been very positive modelling that has been produced has shown that it can be very cost effective which has been shared with the Transport Minister as well as the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice I know what you say that we're hopeful of progress do you think there could potentially be a greater pace injected into this perhaps that would be a way for maybe some leadership from yourself and others just to try and pull it together a cross-party group to try and pull this together and drive it for us there's time constraints around people's welfare we had an interesting intervention earlier on there was a ministerial who mentioned about NRPF restrictions unless they're specifically outlanding the schedule and there's 26 benefits that are itemised in the schedule unless they're specifically identified as restricted then there's no other funds restricted so there's ways to circumvent it I think that was the key theme that came out of that previous panel discussion that NRPF is actually we can be creative with and I think that this is potentially a route or way below even the minimum that the social security system would provide to British citizens I just wanted to offer that as an opportunity potentially we could work together on a cross-party basis to try and drive this forward before long I very much appreciate Mr Sweeney's anxiety around moving at pace in all these matters and he can rest assured over the last number of weeks that we've had the additional responsibility for refugees arriving from Ukraine that the pace has been relentless as we tried to make sure that first of all we get the super sponsor scheme in place and then that we make sure that we have the support services in place around it I'm going to bring John Primrose in around the public transport elements in particular and he can hopefully illuminate further but I'm also conscious of my previous experience chairing the social justice and social security committee that finding creative ways to ensure that the Government can support people and by the way the Ukrainian situation is different because they have a course to public funds but this is a separate situation ensure that we are providing support where we can finding creative ways of finding support where we can is something that the Government is very much alive to John I don't know it particularly on the public transport part to illuminate further please Thank you very much minister and good morning committee I just wanted to quickly add the information that many may be aware of already that the free rail travel that's available to Ukrainians that are looking to come to Scotland that connects to UK routes and that we're actively monitoring the availability of that free transport there's also obviously free transport from the house that's being provided to the accommodation for said and we're constantly monitoring the availability of transport options for those that are looking to come to Scotland of participating in the route Thank you Thanks John, I hope that helps Mr Sweeney I think it does but the key ask was really about extending the Scottish touch instruments which recently extended the concessionary travel scheme for bus travel that was extended to young people basically using the same basis to extend it to all those subject to immigration control under an RPF and one of the key issues that pertains to Ukrainians that was raised in the previous panel was those on the seasonal workers visa scheme who are subject to an RPF and that's quite a significant population though we don't know specifically how many in Scotland that's up to 6,000 I believe across the UK another problem that was identified of course was the issue we don't know where they're located in Scotland and that's a bit of work needs done but perhaps that could be a quickfire mechanism to extend on a current scheme and include a relatively small population cohort in the scheme that already exists relatively low cost but would have high impact in giving people extra ability to move around their communities once they're located in their final residential place Thank you, convener I'm aware of the meetings and correspondence that there has been and between Mr Sweeney and my colleagues Jenny Gilruth and Shora Robinson on these matters I know that it's something that's under active consideration and I'm hopeful that we might be able to move forward on that but those considerations are on going and like I said hopefully we can understanding the anxiety that Mr Sweeney has that we can have something in place as soon as possible Thanks very much, Shae Mr Ruskell I'm assuming that there has been discussion with the Welsh Government about their free public transport pilot in this area It's not something that's come across my desk as yet but I'm looking to ensure that we are aware of good practice that goes on elsewhere obviously we're constantly looking at what's happening elsewhere and also reflecting on the good work that is already being done by the Scottish Government in these areas and expanding the free public transport availability in Scotland is obviously something that the Scottish Government has been investing in substantially of late but yeah, we'll obviously look at what has been done elsewhere see if that's something that can be replicated but also conscious of the fact that there's a significant amount of work already on going in Scotland on that front Mr Cameron Just interested on a different topic as to where in Scotland you see local authorities being located once they've come through the welcome hubs do you see it there being a kind of even spread across local authorities in Scotland or are there certain parts of Scotland where we might expect more to be located because of existing links or whatever I just wondered where you saw that going I think that the success of the Syrian model with the Syrian scheme was very much that all 32 local authorities were involved I'm very grateful for the fact that local government have agreed that all 32 local authorities expect to be involved and are ready to be involved with the Ukraine scheme in terms of how that will be split, I don't think we'll be taking an arbitrary number approach it will be where there is availability and where we know that we can provide support and you're right we're aware of a larger Ukrainian community being based in Edinburgh which may well point to more people arriving through the family route in Edinburgh and perhaps not so many through the super sponsor route but those things are all going to be under consideration and there's going to be a very clear triage and allocation and matching process that we're going to be involved with local government on to ensure that we can have people in longer-term accommodation as quickly as possible and have the wraparound support in other areas as soon as possible so that we can find a way of getting normal a more normal at life feel able to recover from the trauma that they've experienced as quickly as possible Miss Binto Thank you minister I wonder if you could explain a bit more about what happens with the welcome hubs and how the families that arrive or the individuals that arrive what they can expect I think Miss Binto for that question I spoke I had a meeting with those organising the Edinburgh welcome hub yesterday and as I briefly alluded to earlier there will be a very soft approach of their immediate arrival at the airport and then there will be accommodation there will be transport to take them to the welcome hub and accommodation there there will be an immediate discussion around their immediate needs but again understanding the fact that there will be arriving tired, traumatic, upset, emotional that will just focus in on immediate needs and then to settle in their accommodation and then there will be an on-going process then with our partners to ensure that their longer term needs are assessed and to ensure that understanding that the majority arriving will be women and children ensuring we're very alive to ensuring that we've got capacity at the welcome hubs to facilitate children being able to enjoy their experience there and then it will be a case of working with local authority partners to ensure that we can get them to longer term accommodation as quickly as possible. That's great, yes. In the last session Mary Hayes from the Red Cross talked about the importance of allowing children to become children again and that given that space when we had the consul general of Ukraine speaking to us a couple of weeks ago he talked about the education system that Ukraine has and the fact that so much education can provide the service online so I wondered if that was being brought in because clearly we want the children to be welcomed into our schools but then there's also their own culture and education side too so I just wondered if you have had discussions about that. Yes we have. I've had a number of meetings with Yfian Mankowski and he is involved with the partnership approach that we're looking to take and is helping us to ensure that we are tailoring our response appropriately understanding language and cultural differences that there may be and ensuring that we're mindful of that and sympathetic to it because our local authority partners from an education perspective obviously have experience here in delivering education for people who have arrived from other countries such as Syria in particular and I mentioned the success of that scheme and I know that local authority partners are already working on replicating that model to ensure that we're providing appropriate support for children in our schools and we're working very closely with the Ukrainian consul to ensure that we are mindful and sympathetic and that we're approaching the experience for children to be as sympathetic as possible understanding their needs as well as possible. Great, thank you. Anyone else? I can just ask a final question minister. Obviously this is a huge humanitarian crisis that we're facing and that we want to do the best to help that we can and it was mentioned by the panel that they believe the super-sponsor route has been implemented with empathy at the heart of what's happening. I just want to ask how because so much of this will involve co-operation with the Westminster Government and ministers there about that relationship going forward and there have been quite significant differences in attitude towards it and this Parliament hasn't given legislative consent to the nationality and borders bill in itself and one of the things that was mentioned was the withdrawal from the 1951 refugee convention so I just want to understand how well and how willing you feel that Westminster is able to do this having also been a convent of the social security I know that even data sharing is a contentious issue so just a feeling of how that relationship is and if you feel that they are co-operating fully with you as fully as they can and if this was the only thing we were facing then that would be enough in itself but we know there are humanitarian issues across the world and we're still people seeking asylum and refugee status here and I appreciate that you're here as the minister for Ukrainian refugees but how can we ensure that the needs of other people coming to the country are met in the same way and with the same dignity and respect towards them? There's two very important issues there firstly Mr Cameron will remember well that I was the minister that moved the motion to withhold legislative consent for the nationality and borders bill and it's been a very consensual meeting thus far and I don't want to break that but I think my comments on that are clearly on the record and I think we can see given this situation the fact that that particular piece of legislation was short sighted and has been shown to be so but I do believe that we have had and maintained a very good positive relationship with the UK Government both at ministerial and official level in response to this I believe genuinely that certainly the conversations I've had with the likes of Lord Harrington that they want this to work and they are very keen to be able to respond to the questions and the information that we need as quickly as possible and there's a commitment there to do so so I've been pleased that that and I think that is also replicated at an official level as well that there's a good working relationship there which as you say has not always been the case but I'm pleased that it is the case here in terms of treating people with the same respect and dignity regardless of where they come from I think it should go without saying but I will repeat it that Scotland has a long history of welcoming people seeking sanctuary it goes back decades, generations will continue to do that regardless of where they come from aware of the fact that there have been difficulties in previous schemes where there hasn't been the same partnership between UK Government, Scottish Government and local government third sector as there has been in the Syrian and Ukrainian scheme which I hope will make the Ukrainian scheme a success having genuine partnership working will ensure the success of this scheme but we continue to do what we can to provide support for Afganis that are here but acknowledge the fact that the responsibility for that lies because of the way it was set up with UK Government but we will continue to do what we can because regardless of where people come from we are determined to do what we can to support them in their time of need and we will continue to do all we can to do that any final questions from committee I think that's Sweeney yes please I was just wanting to ask one about the issue of equality between people with refugee status and asylum seekers that has been taken into consideration and any provisions that will be brought forward to support people coming from Ukraine obviously there is a wider issue of a crisis, a humanitarian crisis in our midst with the current asylum system with the tragedy of the parking disaster in Glasgow with hotel accommodation etc and there is that hierarchy of people in the asylum system subject to different restrictions so I did wonder whether that is what considerations have been taken about ensuring there is a priority across as much as can be achieved under NRPF I'm happy to take Alison Orr John at this stage I don't know who would feel best place to respond but yes I think this current situation has shown how ensuring that you are providing a swift humanitarian human rights based approach and allowing people to find sanctuary how that works well and I think that it should be for the UK Government to reflect on in terms of the way that the asylum system works Alison I don't know if you would want to come in at this stage in terms of Mr Sweeney's direct question Thank you minister I think that Mr Sweeney reflects the position that the Scottish Government has taken on this which is that asylum seekers and refugees should be brought by welcome to Scotland and treated with parity so the work that we take forward under the new scott strategy is designed to ensure that all people are welcome to Scotland whether they are refugees or asylum seekers and that support is there to help them rebuild their life including those that are facing destitution as well as those who have refugee status and how we work with people to provide support where they don't have access to public funds so it is a holistic approach that we take through the new scott strategy and we continue to press the UK Government to properly fund and support the asylum system so that people can be given and treated with the dignity and respect that they deserve There was actually just one more if that's okay sorry don't try to take constraints working but one point that Mr Sowell raised with the panel previously was the Ukraine Advice Scotland service which has been set up which is great he was talking about how it's effectively a passive system where it's an email inbox monitored on a phone helpline and there was issues around access to data for locating people subject to the seasonal workers visas in Scotland so I think the Scottish Refugee Council were looking to try and access that not through the Home Office because we were being quite uncooperative but through the four employment agencies that tend to deploy seasonal workers around Scotland but I wonder just in light of Mr Roscoe's previous question about the farming community is there potentially a way of advertising through the farming community in Scotland to say well if you have people on your farm who are Ukrainian can you please introduce them to this service so that they can perhaps get extra access for support maybe that's a mechanism to help to to drive greater availability of it Yes, I think Mr Sweeney is absolutely right and that the work to ensure that people are aware of the support services that are in place whether it's the advice provided by the Scottish Refugee Council or Just Right Scotland who are funding or indeed around the super sponsor route itself to ensure that people in Ukraine and the surrounding countries are aware of the fact that there is this faster route to get into the UK to come to Scotland we're working on trying to make sure that we are marketing in that and that we are making people as aware of as possible as quickly as possible of all those areas that they can seek advice so I think we've all got a role to play in helping to illuminate those routes and I would encourage colleagues to be sharing what has been put out by the Scottish Government, the advice that's available on the website, the funding of the Scottish Refugee Council, Just Right Scotland and the NGOs on the ground to ensure that people are pointed in the right direction for the support that we have made available at pretty short notice Thank you, that concludes questions to the committee this morning minister Thank you very much, I know this incredible busy time for you and your officials and I thank you all for your attendance at committee this morning That concludes today's meeting and I will now close