 Okay, so you were live vipanenima take it away Accepting accepting invitation This is something we wanted to do in the group for a while to kind of make a connection between One of the standard kind of entities in the area of blockchain and and telecom So yeah, that's a great honor to have you here So we're pinn if you have something got Otherwise Premon can go ahead I'm very pleased to be here and speak. Yes, I'm very I know some of the people on the list to tuber faisal is She used to work in ISG PDL and I mean The company she works for is a member of Etsy. So yeah, there's quite a Some of the things I'm going to say are Probably things that she was involved in writing Yeah, I'll just give the aim of this is to focus on the aspects of permission distributed ledgers in telecoms networks So we're talking we're not developing hyper ledger. We're not developing a ledger We're used developing the aspects of how to use the ledger So I will talk now about what we're doing. Thank you nima Um, so blockchain applicability, we need to go beyond the conventional environments and build the distributed ledger case We need to look at the manageability scalability of the number of nodes and the transactions per second and the data capacity The time and energy efficiency energy efficiency is a big issue for ledgers. In fact The bitcoin ledgers that have been Everyone thinks blockchain is bitcoin when you talk to them first But the bitcoin ledgers have not been energy efficient at all So we want to develop a ledger. We want to focus on the energy efficiency And we would want to work with hyper ledger foundation But linux foundation hyper ledger group in in their work We want to develop fairness. We want to develop the legal implications and the governance aspects Uh Link into this now the governance aspects are not things that etsy is going to standardize but to make it applicable across european to make it applicable across north america and other parts of the world We need to develop governance governance is one of the big issues here So we're developing a permissioned approach seeking for multi-sector environments Telco and beyond we're focusing on the telco environment and beyond etsy came from the telco environment So etsy has a lot of experience of telco. I mean, I used to develop software for telephone exchanges in the early part of my career I've worked in telecoms for about 30 odd years So i'm quite an old man there. So i've been around quite a while So my doctorate is it was back in mathematics before ai was really in the mainstream Uh, but some of my the work I did in my doctorate was could be used as the basis of ai now So most of all industrial implications are one headed solutions dependent on a single vendor Most of the industrial implications people sell from a single vendor into an industry And many of the other multi-cloud services management and governance Are based on distribution which becomes multi-headed and multi-vendor So the vendors have to into work and the operators need to make them into work And we need to develop a governance structure or a distributed Authority organization structure to allow that multi-headed approach So what's the focus of ai of pdl? PDL is not focused on ai another group i'm working on is ai focused We're focused in pdl on accountability on performance and predictability We want to predict the outcomes and want to predict the history We want service sector regulations And we want to comply with regulations in various countries and governments in different parts of the world So there needs to be regional regulation needs to be national regulation And I talk about regional incentives groups of countries. I don't talk about regional as parts of countries, but they could be either The need for carrier grade service now carrier grade comes from the idea of the telecos working on five nines No end to end predictability But we want to get towards five nines now the internet used to have a terrible predictability But it's getting better and better. So as we're going up the various generations in the internet We're going to know four nines and hopefully we'll get to five nines in the not too distant future Service level implies going we want clear service level agreements that people have legal respect to keep We want infrastructure that must be interoperable We want governance using multiple flavors of governance from governance from the software governance from the the legal aspects So in governance from above and governance from below and governance from side to side And governance from the operators the operations aspects and governance from the vendor aspects We want the autonomous governance and the the distributed the The autonomous regions the autonomous authentication Must be based on solid agreed specifications Identity and security are key factors in the governance. The governance needs to be completely identified so what is What is the focus of this group? Well, the focus of this group was we defined a data processing requirements We've just defined permission distributed federated data management on trust predictability ipr and the IRPs the the Interface reference points based on an architecture that was defined an effective conformability assessment based on the architecture Identity and access control and last mile last mile means a predictable last mile Predictable last mile of the telco grade um Hyperlegio type functionality The operation environment for tracking industrial certified iot and edge devices distributed and federated management want data collection data sharing pdl 002 based on data sharing requirements federated learning based on pdl 9 which i've shown here and privacy and sovereignty in the data pipelines based on pdl 13 non pretty non-repediation and types and objects was pdl 14 Now tuba was involved in writing this document So it's odd to speak to tuba about this because I was involved in discussing this with tuba Many times in the last year or so again Technologies and strategies is part of our work So the next slide smart contracts. We want inherent immutability auto execution and transparency Well known operational methods and verification well established governance practices well defined data conduits and triggers Redactability based on pdl 18 Redactability is based on high alleges and the NIST was involved in some of the hyperlegio redactability aspects The hyperlegio redactability aspects have lots of Etsy members been involved in the North America and beyond So the high the pdl 4 and pdl 11 of the smart contracts aspects But pdl 18 is based upon the redactability Interlegio interoperability and ledger Agnosticism We want to be agnostic as to how ledgers into work need to operate The joint work between Etsy etesie si and sencelak has been created on smart contracts And we want to we're aiming now to Turn the smart contracts into real standards for europe and for any other parts of the world That want to adopt the standards and use the standards the standards will be vulnerable entry So what's en would be a european norm. So it would be a european standard But there would be voluntary standards So if the european commission makes the mandatory for EU countries Then other countries can choose to opt in or opt out of them So using pdl work as a foundation So they will know that based their work on pdl w4 and pdl o11 211 Which these two documents are the two documents that were developed in ISG pdl and Tuber is the expert because she was the reporter for these two documents So smart contracts the side plant chains enable editability Sidechain deployment allows you to forget certain bits of data Allows you to archive certain bits of data allows you to cut bits of data often make it more scalable So that that is the research work that we've done on scalability So the the way you can link this into a master chain And the way you always have a history based in the master chain is there was a sidechain there The sidechain could have been archived. It could have been cut off and edited and deleted So the sidechain might have been completely removed. It might be simply removed temporarily But the fact you can edit a new sidechain in or you can edit data back in to change the sidechain So you can cut a sidechain off and you can put a new sidechain in allows you to edit certain data So whilst the data in the master chain remains immutable the sidechains might not be completely immutable so Etsy is working on application scenarios, which is in PDL 003 the operational aspects the provision models the special emphasis on the As a service paradigms PDL as a service types networks as a service the service Cloud as a service So these PDL infrastructure is reliant on governance aspects the governance has to be defined Outside of the PDL outside of Etsy. So Etsy is not developing the governance. It's not developing standards for the governance Identity and trust management in the PDL 19 Has been specified being written down. These are reports. These are GRs. GRs are reports The decentralized identifies in the did this is being driven by Motorola And Motorola now owned by Lenovo Is working on the did and trust management services the control transparency to share trust data with service providers Now service providers could be companies like telephonica Well, there could be companies which purely work on servers like apple or google they could be working on end-to-end service So they could be working on a data store or they could be working as a network provider So we need integration with apis and the apis need to work from the service provision the service services in the cloud of services in outside the cloud Into public and private identity for services and the the public and private identity could be health services That could be various industrial services the people looking at agricultural services and other kinds of Horizontals and there could be industrial services in actually abusing data identity to control factories and control now food Field to fork as has been discussed as well as abuinza tracking food from its source in the field Which is presumably where the the carrots grow or the beef grows in a cow and to the fork where it gets cooked and where it gets Through the supply chain and through the wholesale chain and through the the retail chain And how it gets delivered into your house and how long it's been stored in your fridge and refrigerators in the home and when it gets cooked If it's been stored too long you can trace the source of an illness You can trace the source of Good food and you can presumably trace the source about food The idea is the european identity service which the applicability of is being discussed in pdr 17 Now we're not we're discussing the standardization of the applicability in the gr We're not discussing the eid s itself. The european commission is discussing eid s. We've sent son like So since we're working with sense son like on the eid s aspects The repudiation management is being discussed in pdl Reputation management, sorry is being discussed in pdl 15 the ways to define reputation reputation and its use cases methods to define the score of reputation And the detecting facilities to ensure So pdl has a lot of functions which are already standardized and published The reference architecture is being discussed and it's been discussed in pdl 12 The reference architecture as irp's interface reference points. It has functional blocks and is interlegent interoperability and abstraction layers. This was worked on quite closely with the Aspects of the Cobot aspects of from the industrial aspects Of the reference architecture. It was also worked on by people in mef So people in the mef forum in the us have worked on this So the redactable ledger is also in highlighted here So the operational modes interlegent information exchange and mutual use The offline interoperations in pdl 10 Has never been gone beyond the gr redactable distributed ledgers is going from gr to gs now The wireless consensus is the idea that you could have multiple vehicles or cars driving down a motorway And they could be autonomous cars which are talking to each other and are communicating with each other so The aim is to produce A known zone of secure information So as the vehicles share information together They don't know which vehicles are trusted which can't be trusted which are part of the Ledger group and which are not part of the ledger group And so the autonomous vehicles which are in the ledger group Can rely on each other to share more information And ledger they can take data from outside the ledger group and they can no take that on a need to use basis So the idea is to distribute a creative wireless consensus between the vehicles So that is telco between vehicles really so we're looking at the telco aspects of how to keep the vehicles coordinated and Working together and how to keep data on the ledger That's interesting. That's now being progressed into a gs which has just started the oracles which is one form of having a Distributed Governance structure or a DAO structure application to the smart contracts application to distributed governance These are issues that need to be discussed. They're issues that haven't really been discussed yet What is being discussed for telecom? Well pdl-21 was discussed for telecom. It's about it's in the approval process now So pdl-21 was just published recently So it was published a few weeks ago. In fact, so it has all these use cases. It has use cases I think seven different use cases on telecom infrastructure registry On the operational log sharing on the security and privacy in telecoms On the resource sharing on the trustworthy explainability of network native ai on the ai aspects within the telecoms network On the smart contract based direct inter operation within it and vertical support Where telecoms can be used inside of a verticals of a network what we What in Etsy we refer to as verticals They don't really If you're a field to fork or if you're a farmer or if you're a Retail, you don't refer to yourself as a vertical. You refer to yourself in the industry If you're a car maker you refer to yourself as an industry So, yeah, they don't necessarily think of themselves as verticals, but telcos do So pdl-21 is being developed into pdl-24 which is a specification which is looking at how This works in the 5g infrastructure and 5g infrastructure will be developed into a 6g infrastructure The dla d la f infrastructure how telecoms control functions can be put into the The kind of registration structure for 5g and onto 6g So we propose new functional entities that are necessary for realizing a pdl application within the telecoms network Specifying architectural design Enabling telecoms within the network management and control capabilities and pdr Now this was discussed today It's just discussed earlier Define service procedures among the proposed new functional entities So this is ongoing work item. It's been it's a progressing work item the gspdl-024 It's not a completely published work item, but etsy members can get access to it And it's in the open area. So women in the open area v 009 is open to the world. So everyone can see it So I can describe how to get at the open area in a few seconds if you wish So what does etsy pdl done? etsy pdl has done all the documents in black So one two three four five six eight Nine there's no seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen There are two versions of twelve which have been produced on the reference architecture There are two versions of eleven that have been produced on the smart contracts requirements The pdl-13 pdl-14 and 15 There are two versions of 18 on redactable distributed ledgers that have been created pdl-19 Has been produced and that is the gr that has been is being worked on the div framework now So the 19 is being produced into the 23 And the 20 which is the wireless consensus network, which was the gr is being produced in 25 Which is the first draft has just been produced So a number of them do have so four and eleven work together Three and twelve work together Because the application scenarios and the reference architecture fit together and the So that that is where we are. So where we are at the moment is we're looking at the pdl-17 There is no 16 either 16 was closed so EIDAS applicability And the pdl supply chain management 22 22 is based on the Reputation which is in 15 so 15 is a gr and reputation That is being built on or been in the Yeah in 22 and the supply chain management has worked on it So supply chain management bases very heavily on the the reputation management And on the this settlement of usage base is based also on 22. So 22 is about to be approved So 22 is one which was in the approval process 21 has just been published Okay, so I can give an overview of what's in each of these documents, but uh, yeah It would take a while to go through each document perhaps and we need to get the repertoire here on the meeting Hello tuba. What is a poc poc is a framework? It's with the poc that the Proof of concepts framework in pdl-5 Was is built on here build awareness and confidence of the system It's a way of having demonstrations of creating demonstration material about having informative Information about having normative deliverables Whether you publish information as a demonstration or as an informative and normative set of deliverables Or as a white paper It will be made more public It's a way of etsy inviting people to make a demonstration The aim is to develop a benchmark that proves that what's in the specification is either good or maybe bad It's not wrong through the from the specifications perspective to prove something that doesn't work To explore technology options. We can explore technologies including hyper ledger Technologies, we can facilitate gap analysis. We can contribute to a guide And guide future asge activity So different new new work items may be created from pocs It's a lightweight process. It's fairly easy to create a single poc It's fairly hard to I mean Some isgs have created 20 pocs so This isg pdl has only three pcs at the moment, but it could create more We can run a poc project pocs can be run on a benchmark with two or three more free people But uh, you could have a an entire project working on a poc So there is no upper limit to the size of a poc But there is there is a lower limit, of course the lower limit is really that it needs to have one isg member You should be an etsy member ideally Who needs to be able to bring the work into etsy meetings or isg meetings? That's really the reason why there needs to be a member so The purpose of a poc is to define is to is to test is from the well the purpose of the poc from the poc's team Perspective they have their nipr. They can create their own Patents they etsy doesn't need to know anything about the internals of the poc what the proof of concept what is proved So they they have their own purpose of the companies working together to prove something to make they Purpose can be as simple as a demonstration. Their purpose can be to prove a product The probably needs to be one nominal operator, but the operator can be a university It can be someone with a benchmark test So etsy is a fairly liberal interpretation of what needs to be an operator A poc needs one operator, which can be a benchmark university. It needs one isg member and it needs three members Of which one or two members are normally vendors Um, but they don't have to be vendors They could all be at institutes So that's basically what a poc is poc is that we have done so far The blockchain for intra domain security was a poc which avoid it looked at three aspects avoiding prefix hacks hijacks It avoided hijacks of messages ip messages from prefix attacks It proved the ip and ism ownership of various nodes along the way And it used pretty good protocols to defend to update messages validated against the ledger So it proved things now the polytechnic of Barcelona and Catalonia and Barcelona was the The main leader of this And they became the a member of isgpdl to lead this work So this was backed by Harway and I think several other companies. I can't remember exactly who was involved in this, but Yeah So it was largely based on that poc 002 was a secure marked place ubiquitous goods. They were looking at using a mobile phone app to securely use ledger aspects to open a A lock and the lock could be based on a In a gym it could be based on an office that could be based anywhere So that's why it's claimed to be ubiquitous because the lock could be anywhere The lock could be owned by an individual the lock could be owned by a company So the aim was to have a use smart contracts to verify The aim was to have an audible marketplace to be able to order who owns a who's able to unlock the cupboard And here's no so you'd have a track as to how many keys you had How many keys were copied? You could use the ledger to work a who had copies of the key You had multiple distributed ledgers you have multiple copies of the key and they could be distributed around multiple phones And this was based upon the Sophie project. It was a European Union paid for project So the Sophie was quite a big project, but it was driven by Ericsson. It was the project leader was Ericsson in sweden So the poc number three was the timeless metaverse environment. They were looking at using a blockchain to secure the metaverse so people on the metaverse or objects on the metaverse Could be secured using blockchain and metaverse could be linked this this metaverse here could be linked to this metaverse here Using blockchain so that they'd be able to recognize each other's applicability So this end user was able to talk through so intermediary to this end user So that's really what they were proving now from the Specifications point of view. It's just as well to see it's just as good to prove that something doesn't work And the specification needs amending To say it doesn't work as to prove that something does work It's not necessarily good or bad to prove So a proof of concept that says something definitely doesn't work is just as useful to Etsy as a proof of concept that says something does work It may be less proof. Maybe yes less useful to a vendor Because a vendor may only want proof of concepts that work Because they want products that work so What does Etsy have? Etsy has open and well-established mechanisms to validate participant nodes Etsy reaches consensus among the participant nodes Etsy has a concept of reaching participant nodes Etsy can publish and execute operations related to the recorded transactions Etsy can facilitate the automation of node management and operation Etsy communicates events relative to the node operation Defines the ledger data flow for different scenarios So defines how the scenarios are used using within a ledger It verifies the execution of smart contracts DAME is just to verify that smart contracts work Now I've been in various meetings since Well, since Tuber was involved that we're talking about how smart contracts can be used both in the legal profession In the industrial context in the field of thought context and as in a meeting only a week or so ago with the A group of lawyers in the us Which we're talking about how smart contracts could be used in the us to replace the order strengthen The way in which you know attorneys in the us could Develop that could improve their teaching and could improve the the validation of their work in the legal environment We discussed how smart contracts could be used in In the legal profession in the uk for transacting property So that's been discussed in the london law courts Not by myself, but some of the information has to be picked up and used Yeah And since Tuber was involved in the king's college which just crossed the road from the law courts It wasn't very far from to travel But it's not the distance aspect Establishing trust links between different ledgers, but the ledgers are Beginning to see use that if valid information is put into the ledgers and stored in the ledgers Then there is value in having it immutable And having it historically traceable But of course the information needs to be able to be archived So it can and the information needs to be able to be tracked in terms of transactions per second So what is the dow for a? A digital autonomous organization This is an idea which has been presented to etsy, but it's not been agreed yet So I do and before I say much more I need to say that dow is not officially been agreed Etsy is unlikely to standardize how a dow works which members could become part of a dow But a dow or a digital autonomous organization I mean it's only valid if many organizations join the dow So etsy will develop guidelines for an application transparent and autonomous in the governance of ict Etsy is working on the governance of ict So etsy is looking at the interoperability and application for transparent and autonomous Etsy is looking at standardized specifications. It's looking at testing and certification And it has a test in the excellent center So etsy won't develop the the the digital autonomous organization It won't develop what is an autonomous organization It went to it was it won't legalize What can be in the governance? It won't decide what isn't it? What who's allowed to be in the governance and what organizations can't be in the governance It will just develop a framework of what is the what is allowed Etsy would develop the impact of ledger characteristics and the consensus protocol It's looking at consensus protocols and apis Etsy is looking at necessary alignment of ancillary elements Etsy is looking at blockchain based Self-coordinated and self-governed aspects of decentralized governance Media mediated by self executing rules and deployed on a public blockchain So it's to be have a public blockchain that is self-governing You need to have some method of governance which sits above it So to be public you well in any public infrastructure you need some sense of policing and governance So in every country we have a sense of a parliament or and we have a sense of a police which But I wouldn't say some are bad or some are good because they vary in some ability So Etsy is looking at tokenization. Etsy is striking a balance on the size Etsy is looking at the operator supply chain management Etsy is looking at the service life cycle and the decentralized marketplace and the service level agreements Etsy is looking not so much standardizing What is the inner service level agreement or how the agreements made between two parties or two or more parties? Etsy is looking at the enforcement and how you can use a service level agreement and keeping participants honest and penalizing by reputation So these are ideas for blockchain which have been published in this the six-year-round concept And the future wireless network is is native to metaverse Aim is to make a blockchain native to metaverse And how you can have various mz's and various vehicles Driving along a road joining and leaving this metaverse And you need to develop various protocols and where you can have a you can have various kinds of hyper ledgers of various ledgers which join the blockchain And you need various trusts between the ledgers And different vehicles and different companies may make vehicles which have different ledgers on board So Etsy is looking at the aspect So Etsy is looking at the aspect of blockchain controllers And blockchain enabled radio access network may be something that Etsy looks at in the next year or so So I can't say at the moment how these Functions are going to be given Decentralized network architecture is looking at decentralization of the architecture Blockchain technology for managing and verifying interactions Resource sharing needs to happen through smart contracts Network autonomy and adaptability needs to happen I mean network autonomy is going to happen as vehicles drive along roads So you can see that as vehicles drive along roads or as people use applications on phone mobile phones That networks come and go they come they appear and disappear within minutes or seconds And sometimes they stay around for hours because Data privacy you don't want to share data with Everyone I think people would allow their Their private data to be shared with some people like members of their family or members of the company they work for Or members of the health service they choose to join But they don't want their data to be shared with everyone ultra scalability So we want data to be valid And the data is we can show that we need a decent Decentralized radio interface Now this is just showing how different peoples can work through Alice and bob can talk via registry So this is just a use case that's showing how that can happen So in conclusion Etsy aims to address the gaps in the complex landscape of dlT versus in blockchain the challenge as it To challenge as it is We want to challenge them the the network as it is Avoid the temptation of reinventing wheels or levers We don't want to reinvent things. We want to reuse things Etsy works on essential concepts of permission distributed ledgers operational aspects On commercial operation added value want to add value to the existing systems We want to match the physical assets within the digital world We want smart contracts. We want to use smart contracts We want to develop that into standards and make it used around the world where it's useful We don't want to simply enforce it Etsy has no means of enforcing it where it's not useful We want to make PDL available as a service We want to make PDL as a network. We want to make PDL as a service enabler PDL could be in a service in itself It could be a network between ledgers And it could be a network service enabler could it could be the application there So Etsy has these links which you can go to so I would encourage people to look at the the links for the proof of concepts We want more proof of concepts and they're easy to create proof of concepts the Etsy work program is Etsy member list and work program is here and Etsy research that what's I'm not showing here is is the Etsy open area. I can show it if I So if I go to the Etsy portal Please feel free to interrupt me anytime you want to and the aim isn't for me to talk for an hour The aim is which I probably can do the aim is for everyone to interact with me and try to find holes in what I say So this is the Etsy portal this part of the Etsy portal is public to everyone. So if I log out The public can see this part of the Etsy portal. So if I look at PDL PDL You can everyone can can see this level of the Etsy portal So if I go to the top level I can describe how to get into the Etsy portal the To get a lower level agreement you may want to create an account You may want to create account to actually create an account on the Etsy portal Etsy has various agreements with sense and like with any artists with Arab and their standards organizations Etsy has lots of agreements with It has an agreement Linux foundation. I can find Linux foundation on this list if you want me to so if I go to the If I go to the partnership agreements Linux foundation can will never come up by typing Linux foundation the next bodies Etsy body external bodies about the next foundation He has an MAU with Linux foundation. Yeah, so this allows everyone in Linux foundation to relate to various groups in Etsy and yeah it was created by Sylvia on Sylvia's worked on mech So on ISG MEC which so ISG PDL can be easily linked into this So there is no reason that that's a hyper ledger can't work with Etsy through this MAU through this memorandum of understanding So if I go to PDL you can seal this information publicly and The information about the open area if I click on open area you can see drafts of all of the work items and if you click on some of the high end numbers will get Some documents which are not yet public Which are not yet published All of the lower numbers have been published like if I take pdr4 uh the higher versions of pdr4 Will link to a published document So this is the way you can get the word version of the published document. Okay, so pdr4 009 was published pdr4 111 is the pdf version which you can find That's the way you can get get at the word version but if I Go back to the versions which are said I go back to the This just said 27 is just So this document was uploaded by shahara a few days ago So this is an early draft. This is 001. This is the first draft. The first draft was accepted today So this is Was uploaded today and it was produced in october. So, okay fine so It was approved today and it was published. It was produced at the end of october So I can't say newer than that. I probably That one's as new as possible Okay So that's only a first draft. That's not published How do you get a published documents? if I I get easily Back to the Yeah, I can get back to the How do you get a published documents if I'm not logged in which regards me as if I go to any Contribution on the work program I can click on a document If I go to have a work click on published documents I'm a young click in this because I don't normally go to this area. So if I pick a document say pdl pdl 12 Pdl 12 is the reference architecture So I get this document and I get this comes up. It says I can't If I'm not logged in I think I wasn't logged in It says that It says that the The word file is only for Etsy members and ISG participants, but the pdf file is for everyone. So everyone can get the pdf file That's just how you can download a pdf file legally and above properly The open area has only given you kind of draft copies So this is how you can get the document So that's the homepage. The homepage contains lots of links to terms of reference white papers And we can produce more white papers. There's no probably immediate problem with that Publishing in white paper as an Etsy white paper pdl member list pdl open area work item forms how you create a new work item the GR skeletons the skeleton documents Yeah, and the activity reports some pdl presentation So the meetings yeah, I think lots of meetings Okay, we have a meeting roughly every two weeks meeting pdl 102 was earlier today the contributions Again, if I don't log in this proves I'm not logged in because the contributions become live if I've logged in You can only see the titles of the contributions if you don't log in if I do log in things have things change So yeah, yeah, I can show you Neema you were there today. So you can see this. Yeah. Yeah, I was there. Yeah, so I don't I do you mind if I So, yeah, like I've been I've been trying to Get involved more in the video and I've been kind of joining the the last few meetings and I had my kind of small first contribution there to to Shahar's document on the On the Supply chains, right So I kind of saw the the process Of contributing and I I also kind of understand the sensitivities in in etsy kind of trying to have a implementation neutral kind of a Theme in the documents, which is quite understandable Now like the most interesting thing for me Well, the first thing is that most of the topics that are kind of being Discussed in all of these kind of working or activities in the PDLR Really just aligned with most of the work we've been doing here So we have a similar kind of approach in a way as an In this telecom sick. We're we're just an entity here People come in from different companies vendors operators They come in they bring in their their use case And then we we try to see kind of how we can help them to kind of put that into Kind of a white paper or sometimes a proof of concept And then That usually kind of Serves as a reference architecture Oftentimes but with the main focus on hyper ledger, obviously because they would be mainly using hyper ledger as their kind of infrastructure for their for their The distributed ledger or blockchain now in terms of The kind of work that can be done here is that I can I can really see that those proof of concepts and Could be really done through hyper ledger because we also have another kind of infrastructure Enabled by linux foundation, which is The kind of internships that linux foundation offers So the idea there is that We have the annual kind of internship calls Where a group of people come together against members of the of the telecoms sake have been involved in these before So they come together. They put in a proposal and then based on that they hire PhD students or or any other Kind of researchers and then they work on a proof of concept or or a similar project Uh, right and and I mean I understand again. There are different limitations. So there's the fact that You need a full member. So I'm I'm representing connect, which is a full member. So There would not be really a big problem there in terms of kind of hyper ledger kind of Taking away that kind of vendor neutrality of Uh, of Etsy again, it's a open source project. So it's probably the best Even if it's kind of It's going to look like that it's just being tied into one platform At least it's a open source platform, right and it has the probably the biggest Kind of a open source community Among the other Kind of alternatives So my my To wrap up Essentially my question here is and this is really more something between you and david That kind of have a good understanding of these two Entities that uh, how do you see if we want to let's say Create a connection between these two entities and see if we can bring in those proof of concepts From a pdl here, and then we try to actually work on them In in this group using our per ledger proof of concept from Etsy's perspective is quite easy to create Uh, there's no real reason why a proof of concept isn't uh Demonstrating one Benchmark, which could in fact be hyper ledger. Uh, I don't see that we have to be neutral to other To all multiple ledgers, but of course, uh, ideally if a multiple ledgers can be brought in that may be better But having a proof of concept that demonstrates that a ledger works Uh, could be a good demonstration So I think What you need if I take the decentralized internet infrastructure Proof of concept then if I click on this Then there is a proposal And there is a final report now These are the members there were four members were the university polytechnic of katalonia The telephonica or we know who telephonica is The highway we know who are ways and the university call us the third in madrid so there would yeah, so it's quite easy for There needs to be at least one operator But the operator could be anyone that runs a benchmark to be honest, I think I worked in other parts of etsy Where we've had proof of concepts which have only been involved um, they've not involved any no major network operator like bt or telephonica or And it don't have to be a european operator either And so they just have to be a member of etsy like at and t as a member of etsy So if at and t wanted to um There needs to be a proposal now if I click on the proposal document I don't know what's going to appear right now, but yeah So, you know clearly the proposal document is a template. He has a skull The the template the etsy number is assigned by etsy. He has these title The title is here It needs a leader the leader is has to be an etsy member Or a nice u participant It needs a description a short description and it needs some acronyms and goals I mean the project goals were really here to define and some reasons Yeah, not all of the uh Things were he has free goals to No To fix these things he has some some milestones I suppose I'm slightly embarrassed that the uh Not all of the uh, I suppose I can now I can hide the Ah, that's all right. Don't worry about that Okay You can see the revisions Hover over you can probably see the last the first made the last revisions, but okay, but No, it's been changed to pdf. So it's not Doesn't make any difference. Okay. So really These are the people involved Well, I do like the idea of increased Collaboration and doing something together and nima, you know, you have a good We don't have to necessarily wait until the mentorship program Although it's coming up, you know, I mean just I know you're aware but just for the other people on the call You know, we do a call for mentorship topics at the beginning of every year. So that's coming up You know, if we want to draft something and submit it, we certainly can And then, you know, the process is those proposals go to the hyperledger technical oversight committee They review and approve those and then the approved ones can then Hire for the the mentees. So that's certainly coming up and we can absolutely do that. Um, but you know There are other we can collaborate, you know with or without that mentorship program as well But yeah, that is timely certainly Now the the the good thing with mentorship programs is that uh, then you can actually have someone hands on who's going to Decade some time to it and we have Yeah, we have we have the the labs the hyperledger labs as well Which is essentially again, the whatever the the produce that this poc is going to produce Is going to be an open source piece of code uh, which again kind of increases its, uh Kind of reach as well, right? Uh Rather than just essentially being uh, being a document, uh, which is going to be Just used by by let's say the etsy members or or just How the open source piece of code is made available, I don't I don't immediately have the answer to but I can I can ask etsy has some open source projects So there's there's no immediate reason why The etsy can't have Let's see some publication of the of the open source code But open source. Yeah, okay Yeah, yeah, I mean that that's that's great etsy has lots of experience in publishing documents, but But etsy is moving into the idea of When in fact it has a cti it has a a center for testing and excellence and They have a concept of open source projects If I get back onto this webpage, some of the projects are called out. Um Let's find them So there are some open source projects in here Well, it's another place we could collaborate on. I mean obviously hyperledger host open source projects as well So yeah, we could see where there's overlap source project as well for hyperledger for ledger as well There's no reason why Pdl couldn't be modified to have two strands to one side of pdl on specification one side of pdl on open source Yeah, we can always talk offline as well too about osm or these are open source projects or all these ones gray ones I don't know why they chase gray Yeah tfs osm and osl a cf for all open source projects Yeah, I mean that that's great. So so what what what it means that it's We won't we won't need to convince anyone. That's he's already moving Towards open source. So that's good news. He has a concept of moving towards open source Yeah, osm is open It's good that osm and nfv are side by side Because osm is the is a partner to the nfv isg So is g nfv is developing the nfv architecture and the nfv cloud components And I think a good part of that is the is the Linux foundation lf networking people Yeah, as well, they're working with the Linux foundation people. Yeah Yeah but Okay Yeah, great, uh, were you were you kind of wrapping up the The speech then Raymond. Yeah, I'm wrapping up the speech and quite happy. I'm happy to answer questions. Yeah, I'm happy to Great, slow ways that's the analytics can work together. Hey Yeah, yeah Any ideas any comments So Raymond why you are uh, it's why it says focusing on permission distributed ledger only not public distributed ledgers specific reason Well etsy decided to focus on permission distributed ledgers because they were seen to be in the realm of telco operators Uh, he would give the permission he would own manage the permissions Uh, the and they may be seen as a way of making the ledgers more Small and interoperable They could be linked to iot sensors, which are Very low cost It was to do with management governance scalability Whereas public ledgers Weren't seen to be So easy to to scale or it's so easy to know the management are And he would manage them That that might not be a very perfect answer, but that's pretty well the answer to the telephone because discuss with me at the time Any other questions? Well, the european commission of recently Asked pdl to be prepared to discuss public ledgers. Okay, that's the other side of this coin Yeah If I look at the terms of reference the terms of reference have been modified to include public ledgers Yeah, I have a question on on on the telcos hard option. So which areas do you think? Telcos will be More open to experiment these and and which areas do you think they may not be very interested? We have we have any comments Well, I'm not a telco. So I think Telcos are very interested in the work that we did in dii with On securing the that the ip path across the telco network and so the danger If you're sitting at home watching a video from a server then Whether it's an over-the-top service or an A telco provided service the or a mixture of both Lots in lots of countries. They are mixtures of both. So the the idea that you could They secure the path using a blockchain is And you could secure each node in the path using blockchain You could secure the headers of the of the protocols which are Give both the control path and the the data path or the the video path That information is is clearly in the telco environment or and in the over-the-top environment the companies like delk Google and apple are interested in that as well So whether it's cloud or whether it's telco What telcos are? As you get 5g and 6g it becomes interesting to discuss what is telco and what is not telco because as you have 5g and 6g applications working towards industry Then what you think of different industrial applications could be supported by telcos So exactly what applications are not of the interest to telcos Becomes harder to actually understand So as you get into some of these applications It's easy to work out exactly how you how you would secure a telco path like this, which we basically want to have two People on the render the path whether they're looking whether they're sharing video or sharing a telephone call or maybe a video call or where And they don't want someone to hijack the call And if you have a metaverse situation like this where clearly you don't want people to hijack the metaverse And you want to be able to link different metaverses together so some of the Examples here are quite easily understood to be within the Etsy domain But exactly what is outside the Etsy domain. I mean some issues about trading and legal aspects Maybe seen as outside the Etsy domain at the moment, but the telcos could in fact have a part to play in providing resource Whether they're cloud resources So as you move towards legal entities Having circuits like Property contracts and they need somewhere to store the legal contracts So telcos could get involved in the cloud storage, but that might not be direct Seen to be the telcos Front office service today But telcos front office service might be seen as then to enter left, and they might be seen as then to earn video calls But the the idea of cloud provision might be a telco service as well I know that china telecom are looking strongly at providing data centers or internet data centers for different companies around china Clearly all the legal operations in china Would could be stored on services and there is quite a big competition between china telecom and china mobile because they want the resources But they probably want to collaborate on some of the standards because they want to use some similar standards, but they want To kill each other in the marketplace They want to go ahead in the corner of the marketplace the fields of fork operations will become an issue the circular network that mean the the How you track products from the manufacturer or from the You can mine certain No base elements from certain mines around the world you can put the mines to the elements together in industrial factories to make mobile phones make cars make Whatever you make in fact all sorts of things you can make in factories And you can make components for property and things You can make televisions you can make all sorts of But all those things include various base elements You can track what's in them and how those base elements are recycled And those products will inevitably come to the end of their life at some stage And they need recycling and the base elements need taken out of the screens or televisions or telephones And they need recycling into the next generation of screens or telephones or Whatever so How telcos are less likely to get involved in the recycling, but they may get get involved in tracking and in the cloud and the blockchain aspects of the tracking so It becomes less clear as to what is telco and what is not telco But I mean the accounts and settlement between companies is less likely to be telcos directly but the basic information Communication between companies could be done by telcos in the cloud So blockchain could have a direct impact on the telcos getting involved in nearly every industry Is that controversial or not? Yeah, I mean the legal profession would never Imagine using the telco industry for more than just providing telephones But they could end up We can request in the telco industry to provide data and data stores and cloud stores and backups of the data and blockchain information to actually Maintain their smart contracts So the legal profession could end up being a customer of the telco Much more than they are today That doesn't directly answer your question, but I The telco could get more involved in every area of this But there are areas where they won't get involved. They're not going to get involved in farming but they may get involved in providing a A set of their software resources to track What components are put in tractors? You need big cloud servers to They store this information And whatever information is stored on a block blockchain It's inevitably going to be putting a big cloud server somewhere Yeah, I think I mean these are good PDLs to look in For example, PDL 027, PDL 026. That's what we are also working in telecom sec And they are just starting as well. Yeah, 27 and 26 Yeah Because we we have published various solution brief on pdl to 026 with Linux foundation networking and Linux foundation edge And I think this is good to start with I think Neema is expert in settlements and And there's a lot of things So Neema which which Which part you are contributing in this? It's super. It's a thanks Which pdl I can so there's a There's obviously a timeline with each one of these as well. So I know I know there might be kind of an open activities related to each one of these but I mean at least since I've joined To have the meetings and and I see there's only a few of them that are currently open And that's that's right. The blue ones are open ones and the the black ones that generally published and closed But they may be reopened and edited Yeah, yeah, so the the one that I got involved was the was a zero 20 22 essentially the supply chain management because We did a bit of work If you remember whipping, we did some work on using options for kind of resource reallocation between the bunch of kind of network operators to reuse their their data and that was That did fit well with the way that these supply chains were defined in In this pdl so kind of we use that as a in network slicing use case we use that as a use case for this pdl Obviously kind of Concepts similar to that could be kind of proposed as a as a proof of concept But yeah, we have you have to think about it more I mean obviously we haven't We've we've actually had kind of more people from vendors interested in in telecom sick We've had limited people from operators really on telecom sick. We've been nor david. Do you remember? any other any members from operators in telecom sick I think we telephonica was involved In the community in the hyperledger community, you know a while back and we've had some interest in photo phone But you're right. I think it's it's been we would be great to get more But there's been some limited Even david dot dois telecom also joined some sometimes. Yeah, you're right. You're right. Yep. Yep. They were So I think yeah to tell it. Yeah, I think a lot of operators are like exploring Blockchain certainly and we've seen them in the community for sure But I think yeah, we could do more to to bring them You know make more connections here Even as standard bodies, I think it's see also we met in 2021. I think In in mwc and and then gsma as well. So But that's again, I think everyone is exploring that's a point Yeah, we did have people from gsma on the the call for good void Mm-hmm Okay, okay. So in the interest of time, but I'm in china. So it's uh 2 a.m. Here for the Yeah, yeah, so in any case. So let's let's let's wrap up if No more kind of a stuff to discuss You know, I think that's I think we're so well, thank you for staying up late nema and raven. Thanks for your time It'd be great to talk more about how to collaborate for sure Yeah, I yeah, I'd like to Encourage collaboration somehow and yeah, I'd like to explore ways in which We can get together and make things happen and prove for concepts is a good way for it because they don't have to be Agnostic and across different kinds of ledges and alexis can be added to gs's which are less agnostic So hyperledge, you can you can simply say where this to be specified in hyperledge. You can have this as an annex and use cases can No, we can reopen the application scenarios for use cases Don't mean to change Yeah, we can we can start with the specific videos like We started so we will figure out which pdl is good and where we can start with Like for example pdl 19 22 19 can definitely 19 has only just been done so it can revive be revised easily Yeah, I think the ones which are harder to revise a one two Yeah, one two four For four and 11 tuba was involved in writing one two four 11 and 14 tuba's not here at the moment, but she's she was involved in this quite heavily her and she was her names on the Etsy directory as the as the author of If you look at this, the names are still there the names of people who wrote Yeah, yeah, hey then so thanks. Thanks. I Hopefully this will be a beginning for For something good Uh, I mean, I think I think we we can add value to to this because I mean, I did I did have a look at lots of these videos And all the drafts are available. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the way they they discuss like concepts such as scalability and so on But obviously it cannot really go too deep into the implementation Uh details, but that's something we can do right so we can bring in these aspocs Uh, and then we can kind of hopefully get some uh mentees to actually Do some implementation and then actually do some scalability analysis maybe On on some of those works and and put some kind of numbers into those kind of scalability Ideas that that that are discussed in documents, right? Yes, and the The parks Don't have to this. I mean not not all the information if you define a four for fifth park As you can see the very limited information is Various presentations and the stuff is available on etsy, but uh, the the actual implementation Could be it could be a linux document. There's no reason where you can't have some documents of yours And some documents of ours and work together The same team would have their own IPR and so the the things which are more IPR sensitive or restricted you could own the IPR and telecom sig And yeah, you don't have to make them available to etsy Now we are We're open source groups. So we don't really do IPR to we David I don't know the answer to that Yeah, I mean, I'm not a lawyer myself either, but yeah, I mean we do Open as well, but yeah, I'm quite happy for you to open up your Etsy has a All of the information that's published netsy is under France. That's fair reasoning on discriminatory The doesn't If you want to reserve IPR companies members can Yeah, I mean in the community everything is licensed under an open source license people can obviously take that code and do things with it I mean, so but yeah, we can get into the details In another conversation so I can't get into the details of actually discussing what kind of licenses work here Okay, but yeah, I think it's pretty similar Yeah, and yeah, we can yeah have a if if we want to explore that can certainly have a conversation about it Have an MAU if we didn't have a similar IPR Hi Raymond hi everyone I had a quick question. I was just reviewing the That proof of concept number one the dii um I was just I was just wondering just uh Do you foresee anything? Any projects as as that go granular down to to for example like the rf the wireless signal on the physical layer I propose it to do I foresee it There's no reason why it shouldn't But I don't propose it to happen, right? It's not my proposal. It's going to make it happen Uh, but yes, I'm not against it. I don't think I think there may be We're not going to create specifications in pdl That overwrite 3gbp But we may write proof of concepts that go into specifications that go into 3gbp So 3gbp people and companies So the the work that happens in run Uh Can be influenced through pdl That makes sense I mean if you if you look at If I go back to the top page 3gbp is one of these groups Uh Yeah, yeah 3gbp So All of the specifications developed in 3gbp Yeah Are seen to be part of etsy from european perspective, but they're also seen to be part of attis or gaa as well So 3gbp is a is a Let's see partnership projects as a project which is It encompasses many stos So The answer is yes, they could incorporate run It could go down to as a piece of software that works in the run But no, they don't have to and i'm not going to propose it right now I'm not against it Yes, yes, definitely and and yes, I see your point I want to stay neutral to that To because I might end up being one of the reviews Yeah Got it Okay, thank you a good presentation too. Thank you very much But yes, I think uh, they could Any proof of concept could take things down to the run Yep Thanks. Thanks remit for accepting our invitation and let's see for future collaborations as well Thank you. Thank you. Thank you everyone. Thanks everyone You're welcome to join us You're welcome to join it to use either as a member as an ice jupitist Thanks comes at me and send me information If you're not a member of it, so you're ready Great. Thanks everyone Bye