 Tuesday November by December 8th at it's one o'clock. We're at the Ottawa Airport at the Canada Aviation Space Museum My name is Sarah Boydenhammer I'm interviewing Herb Saravanamutu So maybe we could just start with your name and age. My name is Herb Saravanamutu. I was 82 years old. I was born in Scotland and I've lived in Canada since 1955 So where were you born? I was born in the press week Just beside the airport. So I was involved in aviation from very early age What did your parents do? My father was a similar engineer. My mother was a teacher of modern languages both University of Glasgow graduates As a child, what did you do to pass the time? I had a large collection of airplane toys and models Now related to to your interest in airplanes, did you have an early interest in science and engineering? Well, I suppose so. My father was a civil engineer. Both his brothers were doctors He helped my brother and myself when I was in medicine when we were doing engineering We once finished up doing engineering Were you particularly interested in airplanes when you were younger? Well fun enough, I was in the Airplanes and I was actually, I grew up in Scotland because of the war I did not go into the war. I grew up in Sri Lanka but I I was very interested in the airplanes and the University of Glasgow opened a department of aeronautical engineering The year I was starting university and I in fact entered the aeronautical program But my father felt that the aeronautical engine was too specialized and that maybe wouldn't have many jobs in that area So very reluctantly I switched to mechanical engineering And I wasn't really all that interested into it and so actually fun enough that I wanted a few people that had a defining moment who are literally a likely time I don't know if you've ever seen the the old movie Breaking the Sound Barrier You've heard of it now Because I went to that one night and for the first time I actually had a gen agent start-up on the on the movie And that in fact I went home that night and I thought gee did I must get into this And I've been in it for 60 odd years Is this movie they discovered that to reverse the controls? That's right Yeah Um So what classes did you enjoy or uh for dislike when you were? Actually I enjoyed all the classes Nothing I I disliked. One of the classes I enjoyed most Electrical Engineering And but I did also Enjoy very much their dynamics and that's the sense you mostly would have specialized in later life So how how did you get in uh into uh into the aviation industry? well um The first job I had is a second job I had as a student I worked for a British Thompson Houston in Summerfield That was testing components of Gaster environments and that was the I found that very very interesting and When I graduated I went to the The Indian industry Did you describe your first day on the job your memorizing specifically for it? It's not really you mean my first professional job when I went well The funny thing was the first professional thing that happened was that I was actually higher than the University of Glasgow by Avro, Canada and I was Under the impression I was a rehired to work in engines But it turned out that there was AV in old Canada was the parent company But it was avro aircraft and arena engines So the first thing that happened when we got here was that I found that there was in the wrong place and So I said I don't want to hear planes. I want to work in engines. So I actually there was I I sat up in the Guard house, I think for the better part of a week Well, there's also a bit of paperwork and I transferred from Avro aircraft to arena engines in fact avro aircraft went to the grave with a $3.22 Outstanding which is my vocation pay for the weekends there I'm going back to uh to when you work for a british thompson houston You've described some dangerous work that you're asked to do To work in the armstrong simply Python turbo product well one supposed to be dangerous work that basically what we were doing was testing Uh turbo starters the turbo starter for this engine I went to fight common at that time with our military engines uh used conduct charges to Blast a sort of steam of high pressure hot gas through a small turbine really very high speed gamed uh to the ship And what we were doing was a sort of typecast Where we had to do 150 starts with no maintenance. So in the case of We were driving a big flywheel that simulated the engine And you had to sort of put this cartridge on the on the starter Uh go through the fire procedure Run it up to full speed Use a hydraulic brake to bring it down Wait for things to go down take it off and do it again And uh, but when you actually you've seen the countdown on the typical rocket By four three two one we have ignition and then everything starts to happen Well, we when we use these conduct starter charges When you went through the Filing of the fire procedure one of these things happened You've got a normal start which happens nearly all the time Or you've got a rogue charge which had A safety disc in it the pressure was too high it blew out But the last one Was what happened was you pressed the firing switch nothing happened And and then the charge was live and the procedure was That you waited for 30 minutes Opened the door and took the charge off and of course that's why they employed people like me And one day we had one of these False starts and we waited 30 minutes and said okay, how did you go and I as I opened the door and went off Another five seconds later it killed me Presumably today's engineers would be horrified with this sort of uh procedure Well, I think we're more concerned about the safety these days than we used to be in those days So can you tell us about the process through which you decided to come to Canada to work at a bureau? Well, basically that to at the end of the war Uh, that was 55. That was 10 years after the war. I think it was still pretty Not very good in in in Britain and that Canada seemed to offer a lot of opportunities and there were a lot of young people emigrating to Canada and Uh, so that that was in my class at university. There was a Canadian student and his father was in fact a In charge of the immigration office in Scotland and So, uh, you said you're initially hired were you hired to work on the aranda engine? I'm just hired as a junior engineer by uh What was it it was a particular company? But you just said I'm working at a render, uh, yes, yes And that was because by that point you were particularly interested in your yes. Yes Um, can you describe your early work at a render as a stress engineer and the sort of materials you work with? Yes, that the interesting was that the stress group Uh, it was quite a lot of people from the maybe 15 of us And about nine of them nine of ten of you guys are all from Bristol engines Uh, so he became Bristol Sydney and he became crystal a holds rice But there was a large influx of British people into that group And but I didn't really want to be a station engineer, but I got a job and the group needed a space engineer And what we were doing then was a of course that uh, there was very confusing available Uh, in fact, they had just finished uh doing disk spacing by hand and They really meant they think of the car punch calculator We speedy things up a little bit, but personally, uh, all of us are working with cycles and That we Later that 55 Uh, about 56 at a render We got an IBM 650 computer. Let's put that in perspective Uh, at that stage the biggest computer in Canada With the IBM 704 at Avril that was being used for the aerodynamic design of the arrow Uh, we got this IBM 650 at a render Uh in 1956 and I should point out that the university of Toronto I didn't have a computer then and got the IBM 650 Uh, two years behind us and we're going to one about four years Be up behind us. So it was a pretty big hot shop computer for its day And by the time this came along I moved on to a different group Working on on the transfer and stuff like that And he eventually migrated into the at the computer lab and there was only four of us in there Supervised and three the engineers like two mathematicians in May I was the only engineer We did all the computing for the whole whole whole whole company And it's quite handy to recognize that that machine Had a total storage Of 2000 watts 2k on a rotating drum It was very noisy very tired to work in there Use cards for being Really punchy and And the cost of this machine is 1956 It was $20,000 a month at a time when an engineer with about three years experience made $500 a month So in other words this but now seems like a totally Mickey Mouse computer Costs their salary 40 years Did you maybe describe about what the computer looked like in the process of using it would make it so tired? Very noisy extremely noisy that there was there it was maybe the night that they were changing the drum Itself was quite noisy, but the main noise was the The noise of the card punch Machine Very noisy and it was either beating or punching cards Yearly all the time And it was it was in fact in a large Air-conditioned room That the the fact to me that the Where the computer was it was for all the engineering staff located And it was not air-conditioned at all And in fact that the When the temperature got above something magic number, which escapes me now by 25 degrees far now We were sent home because sweat would get onto any withdrawing or anything you're working on but the the Computer had to be air-conditioned. Now there was a very large central processor, which Would be the size of the stable and above 5 feet high And the card punch machine would be a bit bigger than the standard Modern copying machine And in fact that we had a full-time technician assigned us from IBM And it was a very little day But we didn't have to have at least one valve change. It was a little literally You might twice a day have a stoppage Because some vacuum tube valve went and the technician had to come in to pay it What sort of calculations are you performing on the machine? Well, we're doing basic stress calculations and aerodynamics Engine performance Oh, all the calculations that we do today except they're much simpler You know, we didn't have the computing speed or the memory or anything, but it was a big big advance on cycles Was that computer technology comparable to what was being used in in Britain and the United States? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yes, definitely. And I started buying better computers though. That was quite adequate in those days for The what we've done in India is that I certainly the station engineer Had never heard of finite element methods, which I don't think even the staff I don't know and finite element methods Are were first developed, but I'm sure it was in the early 60s At that point, did you often travel as part of your job? Never But in my time in I made one One trip But that was after the hour of crash that they would be working with industrial turbines But no, no trouble, whatever. But you also remember that in those days Those little business travel anyway, because we're now it's commonplace to hop on an airplane to come up from Montreal to Toronto, Toronto to Ottawa for the day and back This was not possible in the days of slower aeroplanes and less aeroplanes in there So on that job, no, didn't travel at all What sort of social activities we involved with work and have to work with your co-worker? Not really very much. We had the odd social staying party, whatnot Plenty of cricket team, but the of India and the Ah, don't the movie people won't have you winning me very much Is there any social problems in your peer group at that time? Absolutely none. But when I read that question, I thought, yeah, can't think of anything there And I was sadly that one of the guys Did obviously drink a little bit too much. He was not much older than me He was a very good, very able galley and the last I had was poor fellow that he actually Killed somebody driving drunk and died in prison But generally, no, there was no infidelity that What kind of a good there was in a large group like that there were There were a couple who actually swapped whites that that was a that was the extent So could you describe the Miranda-Hirakawa engine? Yes, the Irrequire was a very advanced engine with a lot of innovative features that It was One of the first engines to make massive use of titanium, which is why it was so light It was also one of the first engines To have no inlet guide veins, which he was a considerable Aerodynamic advantage It was one of the first engines to have fully modulated after bummer But those days after bundles were either on or off And some had two positions you could have Minerum after bundling or maximum after bundling The Irrequire was one of the first to have fully available after bundling Does that mean you adjust the amount of fuel that's going into the system? Yes, you adjust the nozzle size as well because the thing is the after bundler Depending on how hot it is that it depends on how big the nozzle only has to be To pass this forward I see What stage was the Irrequire program at when you joined? Well, I joined in September 55 And the engine Was running there were a few Maybe two or three engines I'd run but not very much. It was a fairly early stage of the The actual test-based development process, but there were complete engines running There were bits breaking and we were having to redesign bits and So that was at the time we got there it was just early in the running phase How advanced was the Canadian turbojet technology relative to other programs in say Britain, France, US? I'd say it was every witness advanced that one of the things I love people don't realize Is that it takes a lot of power to test a compressor and in the early days Testing compressors would be difficult because of the the lack of power required And at a render that we had in fact a test facility Up at Paris sound, please call Nobel And up there we had the steam turbines from the world war two destroyer The hunt class destroyer And the steam turbines were actually used to drive the both the render compressor and the Irrequire compressors So there was a really quite advanced testing going on And at the time of the cancellation The render was in fact building a large altitude test facility What goes into the band and when the program is cut off So I've read that Canadian facilities for engine testing and production were more modest than Other engine manufacturers say in the United States. Did you find that was the case? No? No, I don't think so at all and the render Was certainly totally competitive. The render was totally competitive with the Rolls-Royce Avon That a lot of people this may be propaganda, but reckon that the render power and saber was the best of the 1860s There were sabers with the General engine with the Rolls-Royce Avon and the render And they're in fact that see a render built Close to four thousand F86 and see it 100 So that's a lot of engines Was there a lot of sharing of knowledge between different engine development projects in different parts of the world? No, there wasn't there was pretty competitive, but certainly some of the technology migrated to uh to Canada Mostly because of individuals rather than because of The combustion system on the Iroquois was a vaporizer system, which was actually developed by Armstrong Sidley When I started in the business that in Britain There were about six engine companies Rolls-Royce, Bristol, Armstrong Sidley, Diablo and Napier and Blackburn Uh, they eventually formed into two major groups, Rolls-Royce and Bristol Sidley And then eventually Bristol Sidley was built for Rolls-Royce to be just one city-damaging company but, uh, there was a We got visits from the the great chief from Of Argo Sidley like once a year might not have to come Spect what would be going to the colonies so to speak, but I don't think there was I was of course a very low level But I don't think there was any real direct collaboration at the highest level on Because certainly the Iroquois, I know, was very much light on the Olympus, which was being built at the same time And this was largely because of the the use of Of titanium in such large amounts And also the In general novel bearing concepts that we use in the Iroquois The Iroquois, as I recall, are only four million bearings Most other engines of that period are seven million bearings, so they save weight, but It was very iterative It would be exciting So, uh, despite the uh, the Hawker Sidley parent company of AV Roll and Bristol Sidley These were essentially national programs that ensure a lot of I believe so. Yes, I'd say definitely so but I think that the The Hawker Sidley people would come out once a year to see that everything was going all right But essentially we operated totally independently of them from the design point of view British methods now The guy who was the the chief air dynamism's heart and keys Uh, he was uh, a king which graduated one of Wittell's original air dynamisms, but just like he came out of the Wittell operation. We didn't mean that we were Been fed information from them. He was into what Wittell, what keys themselves brought to the company so, um When uh, AV Roll initially hired their engineers, uh, they mostly hired from Britain. Is that right? And British expertise? Well, there were quite a lot from Canada that uh, they were also Fair number from Holland, Germany Uh, but mostly from Britain A mostly from Mostly from Rolls Royce and Bristol Um Who did you know at AV Roll and Aranda? Did you like did you know anyone in upper management? Did you Meet anyone in upper management? Oh, yes that to uh, in fact that the, uh Bert Ebert, for example, who was the chief engineer? Uh, he was only 38. You know, that's one of the things that impressed me the young guy coming to Canada that Russian companies he's got the impression. He didn't get a sharp pencil. He was 70 But the Aranda was really a very young company that It was there. There was in fact, uh, one of the very senior guys Charlie Grenier Was the vice president in glaring. He'd come from Bristol and he'd been Quite prominent at Bristol before he came to To Canada. I'm not really sure why there were so many guys from Bristol In this desk office. I think it was a case that Two or three went in the first place and then they told a friend of the great place to work And they got a couple of comments on So there was a very strong section there that were all ex-Bristian Was it a good place to work? Ah, that's a good question. There was a great place to work. It was really interesting when I was up But I think it was badly managed The whole, the whole, uh, 80-year-old operation, particularly the The cancellation was a bolder behind it, but that was, that was who It's totally bad How so? What, what, what decisions were made that went, uh Well, we were stuck along. I remember going to a There was a, um, a meeting where Bob Lindley, who was Chief Engineer at Avro, Gives a pep talk in November about everything was fine, everything was going just super Uh, and with the whole engine department, uh, from an ender over there to visit the Avro facilities Uh, and at the fewest places the whole thing was cut off. Well, that was the The point was that was the government decision, not a company decision But the way the company handled it, uh, was really very bad because they Literally fired every over the PA system Now, I was, uh, at that stage, I had been working on, We started working on industrial gas turbines, uh, for about six months before the, uh, the crash Uh, that they, I hadn't worked on the Aeroprogramming and industrial programs, but I was in the computer lab So we're all hoping, oh, maybe there'll be big layoffs, maybe we'll be okay Maybe some groups will be okay and so on And I was in the computer lab where, uh, the PA system didn't come in It was the only bit of the fact that it was air-conditioned And I was in the computer lab and the PA system didn't come in there because it was sealed in air-condition Uh, and somebody opened the door and said, quick, there's a message from the PA system Ran into the hall and said, what is the message of your fire? And I actually missed the message, uh, which, uh, the message was basically that Following the cancellation of the auto, there was no more work on all Outly, weekly, and monthly paints that have forgiven moments of immediate termination of employment So you had no idea that was coming? No Well, we certainly, that we knew they were going to cutbacks, but if the program went, nobody expected Uh, the whole thing to shut down, uh, just like that Was management taken by surprise or? I think so. I don't know. I was far, far too low down to be concerned with the And I was just a worker bee But the thing that was interesting, uh, a lot of people, there's a lot of false ideas about Was that the Americans were the bad guys They were quite the opposite, that the Canadians, uh, by and large were Really quite miserable to the people that lost their job There's a lot of sort of shadow in front of the work that covers it now But, uh, that there were guys in there. I was lucky. I was 25, 26 Uh, I was in an area with a good job very easily But there were guys in their 40s and early 50s who were out in the streets trying to sell back in cleaners Full of brushes and stuff like that couldn't find work But it was the American companies that came in and recognized the amount of talent It was available here, uh, and a good friend of mine from the very building guy, um, He wanted, he was, he wanted to come to work for NRC in Ottawa They could not find the means by which to move this man from Toronto to Ottawa One of the American companies, RCA, uh, recommended said Move all your stuff, send us the bill and we'll see you there And that happened all over the place. They went to Cincinnati, to Phoenix, to Westpam Beach, to Florida All over the state, uh, and they were all Bring all your stuff and send us the bill Whereas in Canada it was the case of, well, hard luck, you know, to work now More than that, that when I went and said, okay, now what do you get? Uh, and the way of unemployment insurance Oh, yeah, paid for three months, no, get early In those days, when you reached the magic number of $5,000 a year And you stopped paying into income tax, into unemployment insurance And I had paid into unemployment insurance For about three and a half years or so, and then for the last three months or so I hadn't paid and not a penny So you're one week salary, that was it And as a result of that The Association of Professional Engineers of Ontario bought a test case over the name of a man called Gus Lazarovich Uh, who was a man in his 50s, Polish Uh, who was a professional engineer, uh, a weekly paid, weekly paid staff As was nearly everybody And the company fired him, gave him a week's notice And the EPEO, uh, for a test case of this, and they said this man should get six months salary As reasonable notice of dismissal Uh, and after quite a bit of legal hassling Uh, the courts awarded three months, instead of six months And the company appealed against this And lost, and that really set That was the first industrial settlement, uh, in Canada Where some sort of thought was given to what was reasonable Separation in the event of a major Trackdown in this Uh, now I know it's moved on from that now, but there are formulas based on How long you've worked for a company, uh, and so on But in those days it was paid by the week, fired by the week So there were some positive effects to shutting down the ERO program? Well, you can say yes, that was a positive effect And say there's a little more negative effects than positive effects So, uh, while at Miranda, how involved are you with the metallurgical aspects of engine design? Well, very little, it doesn't space engineers that, uh, obviously that we had to know What the material, uh, properties were, but there was a mentality group that, uh, It's actually selected the materials that we had, uh, very rudimentary Materials, nothing like the kind of databases available today, but you know, we had our own information On the various materials, but most of this was in fact a team from the manufacturer, the material manufacturers, uh And we did in fact, uh, through the mentality group Do quite a lot of creep testing, uh, on various components and what have you Basically we just bought in the materials that were available On the market Pre-testing as well, was that when the materials are subject to heat or expansion? Well, it takes about a very long period, uh, high temperature and high stress So when you test that, see, uh But the turbine blades that they're operating at very high stresses and very high temperatures Are the gradually stretch and eventually will rub And eventually they will in fact come apart or rupture. Uh, I'm not a retardist. It's also Please don't give me, uh If I get something to turn this on But the point was that the creep testing was very important to Be able to understand how long you could run a turbine blade at a high temperature and, uh But we were realisation that a Really slaves of what was available from the major. They took people like Like Enco and Allegheny, London and Enco is based in Britain, is that right? No Enco, well I think it was all based in Canada But really they were doing the alloying in Canada? I I don't know No, I'm I I think that was even in the ancient states The The early states it's hard to do Certainly that you think of Enco But see they're mainly supplied of nickel But the nickel went into the alloys which were a high percentage of nickel But I think most of that development was done within the ancient states So, uh, you've heard an email the challenge of using a cool turbine blades and how that was actually solved Using any material you talk about that? Yes. Well, what we were trying to do Uh in 1955, uh, the Iroquo had a design turbine temperature of 1,300 kelvin Uh, and that was about 150 degrees hotter than anything you've run it before that and What we were looking at was a cool turbine That would give 150 degrees 160 degrees centigrade Of cooling, but they were very crude blades And essentially they were the ones we were looking at initially were sort of sent to the blade Uh, the main body of the blade had sort of cavities machined out of it Then a covered plate welded over them And then you would bleed air into the base of the blade up to these these were enormously crude Uh, and really would have been quite ineffective apart from that It didn't hold together that they we couldn't get them all together Now the problem with these blades was that they didn't get the cooling air Anyone near the leading edge of the trailing edge And we got these you've got these enormous thermal stresses because like this But the point was that nobody could make these blades and NASA or NACA as it then was come up with all these wonderful Proposals for cool blades. We could use the amount of cooling and whatnot Um, but the fact was I want to transfer problem. It was a manufacturing problem And nobody can manufacture cool blades What it actually saw they saved us was that the Inco come up with the material called Inco 713C Which became very way to use and it was found Now instead of Trying to do a cold blade with 1300 kelvin temperature and the associated parasitic losses of Uh, the cooling that with Inco 713C We could go to 1275 kelvin and get the same performance now at that stage Everybody all the engine manufacturing in the world Gave up on cold blades with one exception And the one exception was Rolls Royce And Rolls Royce persevered with that And they got the first, uh, cold blades running a bit before 1955 But they Rolls Royce activated the fact that they had a million hours in flight with cool blades Before Pratt and Whitney got a cool blade into service. The point was that Rolls Royce for the people who kept going When everybody else said it can't be done and of course now Come cool blades are commonplace And they're using industrial engines and they're using air temperatures 1800 and 15, 1900 kelvin and civil engines Probably 2000 kelvin and higher and modern military engines And of course at these sort of temperatures that if the cooling fails you can lose a blade It's the case How did they solve the problem? Who? Rolls Royce from the Well by gradually developing more sophisticated manufacturing methods starting very simple Gradually more complicated And they are gradually finding ways of drilling much smaller holes with lasers and whatever you Let the chemical machine and a lot of the new Technologies involved in being able to produce a blade That was full of holes that were still strong And they And these are quite standard now, but it was a very very major Manufacturing problem to overcome Could you describe the challenge of developing titanium compressor blades? Well, it was not such a Titanium compressor blades, but it was titanium compressor blades and a titanium casing And what was found was that if the titanium blades rubbed against titanium casing you are very intense fire Uh, and in fact at one stage we we had a titanium fire on on the test bed Where there was a heavy rub And the engine went on fire And The heat generated immediately triggered the automatic fire extinguishers Which happened to be carbon dioxide fire extinguishers The heat was so intense that the carbon dioxide dissociated into carbon monoxide and oxygen because of the even better fire Which was quite interesting But what eventually happened was that the there was no solution to that the solution to that but it was to have a separate material Like a steel steel ring Inside the casing so that if the titanium blade rubbed it would rub on steel and not on titanium Well, there's other materials used for that No, some of the deciding to erode If the blade the blade rubbed even quite recently Jen Electric had trouble with the KM-5 on the old 2500 engines 25-50 years ago Were you using a magnesium engine casing at that point or not? There was magnesium casing used at the front ends on both on the render I believe on the render that the whole casing Compressed casing was magnesium On the Iroquois The front LP compressor casing was magnesium and the HP was titanium Magnesium was widely used in early hero engines And that's pretty old disappeared from engines today And that was a lot of that was caused by corrosion problems Particularly on marine applications of gas turbines or gas turbines that flew anywhere near the water You mentioned the expense of cast turbine compressor blades I think I mentioned the cost of the cooled turbine And I definitely recall those were $1,000 Who then thought to be very high Now you say that's $9,000 I thought it would be more than that Because $9,000 now would be a typical price of a cool blade It may be a bit higher than the complex blades are very much more complex But to the numbers I was quoted by one magnesium company for a typical high pressure Turbine blade on a modern civil engine was the cost of a high engine High engine motorbike Which might be $12,000-$15,000 It depends on the size of the blade and the complexity of the blade But certainly it was then very expensive It wasn't so much that it was the expense of the ball It was the fact that the scrap rate was so high That you couldn't really sort of survive with the Making all these blades and scrapping a huge number of them And then not living any life from them anyway And these blades are so manufactured in Canada, is that right? You've got me then, I don't know where they were manufactured They certainly weren't manufactured in the house They were manufactured by some specialty manufacturer And I don't know who that was So what were the biggest technical challenges in building the Urquhart engine? Well, keeping the weight down was very important In those days there was two philosophies of engine design One was to build an engine that was a bit on the heavy side And gradually make it lighter The other was to make it as light as possible And then when it broke, make it a little bit stronger Now of course we try to get quite first time But the main problem was durability Getting the engine to hold together for a long time There were lots of placarded speeds where you couldn't operate And a certain speed would be very long Because of safe vibration in the seventh stage compressive blade And the third stage turbine blade There was a list of these placarded speeds So you were certainly at the stage where some of the blades Had to be strengthened and the frequency changed So that they were out of the running As far as I can tell, this is a government guy Who had part of the development project When he advanced the engine So you just know the Urquhart was one of these engines That was designed to be extremely light And then strengthened I think so, yes It was certainly designed to be extremely light That was the probably the biggest selling point Was it slowly moving? Would problems still remain to be solved When that on the program was cancelled? I think everything has made it durability And I thought there were any really outstanding problems That were obviously wrong That you had to start off again I don't know how many hours we actually had Running in on the engine There were probably about 12 engines had run I'm not sure how many And they were all in a very small amount of flying The flying test bay that was used in the polling Job of mounting an Urquhart in the back of the V-40 set The V-47 was a very difficult plane to fly Normally, never mind with this Once it's made, it's stuck in the tail And there was in fact an uncontained turbine fail That didn't fly on the V-47 And I don't know enough about that What the cause was But anyway it was a fairly major setback But I think that again was a case where It was perhaps a reckless management decision To push ahead with a splint program Before that, but it was quite right So it had to And it was a It was a turbine blade fail that I believed So if it had been a disk field It would have taken the airplane apart So it wasn't believed Do you know what was behind the decision To acquire a V-47 Is it what was available or? It was the great difficulty of finding a test bed For a big engine like that This by the standards of the day Was a very big engine And then you go down the stairs and you're looking But to diameter of four feet Whereas the diameter of the other two and a half feet maybe So it was heavier, bigger, longer To this date Well to know in fact There was a period when We could go back about 25 years Was now where people said You don't need flight test beds With computers and all this kind of stuff You can simulate all this And you can do flight test beds With a waste of time Who are now at this bed last week Last night at the aviation week But currently on the certification program For the The Asian plane, the NEO family The 737 MAX And the KOMAC in China CFM are a flight And the flight test program Have got 84 engines In that And that's both flight and test bed running And now all of these big engines Can be tested on something like a 747 Or an 1840 Sorry They're even going to be testing at 1880 So when you get up to an 8 The Olympus Flight 93 On the Common Card They had to fly that under the Vulcan bomber And that was a very complicated installation But now with the Engines for the 737 and the AT-20 They've been tested for GE They've got two 747 test beds They've got an engine on that And practically they've got at least two 747 test beds As well But the roles of flight testing The big engines for the 850 and whatnot But the AT-80 In terms of the 10 foot day of the fan That is pretty hard to fit this on Even the 747 I understand that when they were making the Europaw That they included accessories Which I assume is tooling and that sort of thing In the Imperial as well as metrics They were considered selling it to an American company Or letting them license produce it No, no, no, there was a Everything was in jail No metrics All right Or whatever That and guaranteed But they were in fact a A friend of mine that was also invented He came first president and watched him and prayed They were seriously negotiating with the French To put the Europaw in the large nuclear bomber All right And what eventually became the Volcaire The Mach 3 bomber The initial In the competition for that The Boeing proposal for that Was going to use six Europaw engines So the part where the Europaw could have lived Yeah All right The Europaw was seized Considered by both the Americans And the French for top-line aircraft But eventually the company didn't support it And the opportunity went away It required a lot of Hocker-Cindy Some were to put up the money to keep the development Of the Europaw going Without government Without key government support And they didn't do that I imagine there were a number of indigenous programs That would have been lobbying Against the adoption of a foreign engine Um I'm not sure about that That I think you've got a very good engine That's better than anybody else is That the That that can overcome that And we're trying to give you examples Of that Some of the Swedish used American engines Or British engines In the aircraft that we're trying to develop The only engines The French The Brighi Atlantic The twin-engine And some of the aircraft that the French are still operating To this day As you're all Swiss engines The Cansol Which were built in Germany Twin-engine trans-block Was also a large-scale engines So there are a number of cases where Counties of the world Counties of the world Can pick the capability of choosing foreign engines Now you remain with Arenda after the Cancellation That was because you were working on industrial engines Is that No No no no I didn't remain with Arenda I got fired Oh I see I wanted to get out And I went and got A job in the computer In something company But that's one of the few people who was In computers in these days So I went for a job for a guy called Joe Cates Who had a company called KCS Joe Cates invented the King Chansol University of Waterloo Very very distinguished Man of the field And I worked for them for over six months And they It was a very good company But they really My heart went into that And eventually My old boss Formed me up out of the blue And said You come back and work in the nuclear group And then they started a nuclear group And I said yes I'll come and do that And I just was a little bit of a young guy That I thought very well of So I actually Was the first young guy to come back To Joe Arenda I would not try to leave anybody else there Then they started Build up From there But I worked on the nuclear group for A couple of years I suppose But We were working as subcontractors to Atomic Energy in Canada And this was very frustrating Because you write your technical report And you save it off to Atomic Energy in Canada And they came back This whole corridor with the red ink And you'd re-related it back all And when it finished up It was just the same as always when it started But they're all these Bureau connects And people that wanted to come to the back side And see what the years of the alien And the two zootons And anyway While the nuclear engineering thing was very challenging When we started up with industrial gas turbines I was extremely glad to get back Into gas turbines Could you describe Excuse me Some of the work that you were doing For the candy reactors Yes, what I was doing We were working on the development of what's called A warm pressure tube Which was a pressure tube That was insulated from the hot coolant And so it was in multiple layers There was a conium outer layer A layer of insulation The main pressure tube The other layer and so on We spent a lot of time at the Render Developing this And probably enough that the Recently at Calton University We hired a guy A senior guy from Atomic Games in Canada And we're looking at this thing again Now, after 50 years But to also have a Render A Render again, he seems to have a company That did have very significant Manufacturing capability and experience And very good design capability And certainly one of the conceptual designs Of the online fueling machine For candy that was done as a Render So the Render nuclear group Was actually quite prominent Far from about 10 years or so And then gradually wasted away I'd gone with it You're doing computer work for them? Sorry? Yeah, mostly And I'm also an engineer I also do computer work But an interesting thing was that the Render, again because of the Knowledge of high temperature materials Normally, creep tests They'd be done for a thousand dollars You know, you load up something For a very high temperature Maybe say 800 degrees centigrade And you put the load on it And you can do this for a thousand dollars Now a thousand dollars is one a month What Render did for Jock River Was they did a 10,000 dollar creep test On the Zirconium alloys And 10,000 dollars is over a year A friend of mine What was in charge of this And of course they also had alarms And they were happy and He'd get wound up in the middle of the day So he was to build the alarms Could often be a greatly ineptic And when you get at 3 o'clock in the morning You see what the problem was But the point was this We placed them in on for a 10,000 dollar I don't know how many people have ever done a 10,000 10,000 dollar creep test Normally you have a thousand dollar creep test And you can extrapolate And some laps and no forms And things like that But that's the kind of thing that Render was doing As essentially an operation With a very high standard Manufacturing stills Machining, design And what happened You described some of the insights that you acquired About the Zirconium alloy Well, the one thing that happened The main thing was That the number of these creep tests Were not all that useful Because the talk about that Was that once you radiated the alloy Is it a big effect on the creep line So I think in life That you eventually got radiated Was much less than expected From the creep test I would say a lot of metallidists and this Could you describe your work on Render's industrial gas turbines Yes, that the What happened was that In a way it was lucky for Render That the Erequire got cancelled and it did The Erequire was not really suitable for an industrial engine But the Erequire actually was And they Developed two sets of engine Based on the Erequire That was from the 7th and the 7th 100th One was to just basically take All the engines back from the Air Force Refurbished them Put a power turbine on them Packaged them and set them out But the other was to maintain the aerodynamics Of the air engine And build it into a heavy-frame machine That would have a longer life And in terms of it They did a major marketing study of this And they went to look at the market And said which is better They have a heavy-frame engine Based on the aerodynamics of the The aircraft engine Or basically the aircraft engine Slightly modified And the market Three to one said They want the heavy-frame With the aerodynamics of the engine And what happened It wasn't the other way The three engines maybe That they didn't get sold As the heavy-frame Now people are also then Using the Aurendra The scaled-down version of the Aurendra Called the OT5 Which was a one and a half megawatt unit And in fact that Was the first successful co-generation plant In Canada And this is the thing I spent a long time trying to get Sort of information on this Both from DND And Aurendra There was nobody about it They could really say anything about this The thing was that they built this engine Called the OT5 Was something called the Pantry Line Which was the U-line Up at the very top The Pantry Line Was part of the So-called distant early water system It was the closest in part And the OT5 Were designed To Provide all the electrical power And heating and air conditioning For remote radar sites All through the year So the hot exhaust Was used to generate steam In the winter for heating And to create an absorption type of engine Used for hot exhaust In the refrigeration process In the summer And these There was about 15 or 20 of these Up in the Pantry Line In the early 60s And they ran for many years Very very successfully They were the first engines Designed to switch over Automatically from Natural gas to oil And full load The point was that They were able to get A much cheaper price on gas Natural gas If they accepted it on an interruptible basis But if you took it on an interruptible basis You had to have enough oil On site That you could run for a day On the oil And these were designed to be able to switch over At full load Not done anything about 6162 The next thing that we get into Was a competitive program For the US Army Navy For 600 horsepower Gas turbine Which invaded the Navy Engine And that was aimed At getting very high performance In a small engine And it's interesting because that The specification that was set For the engine In 1961 50 years later There's nothing that meets that yet And we were very close to it I left just before that program Was cancelled But that was Interesting because Two of the companies that we beat out In there were Ford And Solar Turbines In San Diego And so we actually Better put up than Solar Solar now The dominant people In the smaller industrial turbine market And I've got about 15,000 engines In the future I've actually run the courses at Solar For quite a number of years And I know exactly what they're doing And I find it very fitting to look at How successful they've been And to realize that we could have been Or they could have been that The set of the capability was there And then when the U.S. Navy What happened was that The U.S. Navy decided They didn't want this engine anymore The U.S. Army said they wanted an engine Twice the power We'd been in that And lost an invention Like Coleman got that job And that was eventually The engine using the M1 Abrams tank And It sold 11,000 of those But that was after that It kind of all dried up I'd left About 16 months before that When everything was working really well And I left with this desire To go back to teaching university So that was the big market For industrial gas turbines The U.S. defense system No, it was the That was where this engine had been developed The big market with pipelines And that we actually put a lot of engines But it turned out that when Rolls-Royce came out With the Avon which was again industrialized You have to have the engine They expect that market away But they're into sold They must have sold about Maybe 120 of these engines I'm not sure they're all of them All of them But they essentially I don't know if they installed money They all come through Did you maintain contact With your colleagues at Arenda When you moved to the University of Bristol? Yes, it did Because Well, I suppose In a way, socially Sometimes I wanted information From my book and whatnot But it certainly kept in touch with them In fact, I kept in touch with my first boss He actually died And I'm still in contact with The guy who did the most fog He's now 90 Corresponding to the regular Could you tell us about your work On the Concorde engine The Elibis 593 Yes, well what happened was I started working on the Aero In those days I should have mentioned that we actually As well as having this Digital computer We made an analog computer In the same lab And I did quite a lot of work On the analog computer The total difference of the two parallel Machines working In real time And at Arenda We started a developer model Of the Iroquois In those days the digital computers Were nowhere near fast enough To do numerical integration For acceleration and dynamics So we were working on this On the Aero And I did quite a bit of work On that, but it was cancelled And then when we did this O.T.4 engine For the U.S. Navy I developed the methods on that And actually came up With a very successful Simulation of the Engine for the U.S. Navy We were certainly the first people To have done that And when I went to Bristol To the University of Bristol I eventually went out To Bristol engine people And all these big engine companies Generally sort of Not in 50 years and gone But eventually it so happened I met the right guy It's always the case of being the right person And the University, the Air Department Had a symposium and they had some people To win from Iroquois And the head of the finance group Was Tony Wood Simulation controls what they're proud to do And they're going to talk to me and say Well, it's pretty similar at the end And he's quite useless there And he can't do it And I said, well, I can't offer to do that Last year, he didn't see me So he immediately gave me some money To get some stuff from me And he started doing it there And so then I sort of Developed this model Of the concoil engine And it was quite interesting because I was fairly Simply unique what I was doing And the National Gas Tub And the SAPA script Got hold of what I was doing And I was doing there and started running Engines for me And all the engine companies Got hold of my thesis And started using it And then with the British Aircraft Corporation The Brigade Weapons Group And they Found out what I was doing They had me as a consultant And based on the model that I developed For the Olympus 590 The direct pilot From what we're starting on the other car They in fact Designed an all new Electronic Control system For the intake control system And concoil And that's what the aircraft was set up So eventually that This thing is not really known Eventually immigrated From the RR to the concoil But Did you work on the Bristol Sydney Pegasus by any chance? No I didn't I worked on the Viper And the Viper And the 503 And then literally RB211 And it started up on the speed But I was actually involved With the Pegasus I'm quite familiar with the Pegasus But never have you worked on it Bristol Sydney to what we'd experienced At a render I don't think much different really That the Quite, quite similar really That the Yeah Quite, quite similar Very, very similar Under what circumstances did you return To Canada to teach at Carleton? That was very funny though I was thought and bogged down in Bristol Nobody ever left Bristol To be a very fine university Be one of the nicest cities in England And see nobody ever left And I had been there For six years And I had actually Was able to go Well I mean I went to Bristol In the first place Was that I decided To go back to university And I thought I wanted to go back to university To teach, my friends in teaching and research But what I found was You've got no interest Whatever from training universities But into a PhD But the British universities at that stage Were quite common To hire people with A good first degree And industrial experience And they would join the staff And then they could actually While being An assistant professor, social professor Work on a PhD Worth teaching And I did that And the funny thing was At the time that I joined I think the University of Bristol hired five of us Out of industry with Bob The same sort of level of experience That was expected that To was a PhD I was the one that finished it They actually did a PhD They did it very quickly But anyway I was the Talking dog down at Bristol No intention of leaving And my wife Had a friend at the University of Toronto And she was right with this lady At Christmas And she was in any message from Joyce And I said Our husband was a young professor At Carleton, so I said simply Oh ask him if there are any jobs at Carleton And next thing I had a friend call From the Dean He was on the airplane and had a job So it just happened Just like that And he came back And said he'd been an associate with Carleton Ever since What have you taught at ICROM? I taught basic thermodynamics And I taught the Higher level propulsion courses Advanced courses in gas turbines And I Developed a course in professional Practice for a fourth year students Which came in a lot of things So that's been very successful Could you describe a little bit about Your space program at ICROM? Yes, one of the things That in fact made to Carleton Was that they had A strong aeronautical Back then They said it's interesting to talk about Aerospace, when I graduated There was no such thing That Sputnik Gave him about three years after they graduated So there was the aeronautical Union Which was all aeroplanes And had The founding dean at Carleton Was a man from a vertical John Ruptash Who was an aeronautical engineer Graduate of the University of Toronto And he built up The department At Carleton Or the faculty at Carleton in the early 80s And because of his Strong background in aeronautics There were electives In fielding aeronautics Doctors and things like that There were also Masters in PhD programs In aeronautics Many of them were Closer to the National Research Council The proximity of Carleton And the NRC was very advantageous To both sides Now When I came to So I was attacked at Carleton Because first of all I was Out of the faculty that you come to That I thought At Carleton we got NRC on the doorstep Not that far from Pratt and Whitney And that I should be able to sort of Weasel them away But it's not easy to get into these places There's been a lot of times that weasel them away Into Rolls Royce Particularly Derby where the Not invented here so they can throw them quite high But eventually I've infiltrated myself Into And it's quite successful So anyway I was offered this job At Carleton And the In fact they wanted me to come as chairman of the department From the NRC I don't think I can do that I don't have any similar experience But if you really want I'll give it a go But fortunately A very evident analysis built From NRC We've been working with Carleton And joined at the same time He became chairman And then four years later I took over From him But we had Very strong working relationship With both At Pratt and Whitney And the National Research Council And also With the render For the sake of this project You think you'd say a few words about Some of the metallurgical research that was going on Ah Well There were essentially two very Imminent metallurgists Mark and John Goldack and Mark and Bibby Who worked together But their main speciality was welding And they in fact Built A very advanced Electron beam welder At Carleton Which obviously successfully for many But eventually Called that down to me I remember for 20 years or so So there was There were really only Two metallurgists At Carleton But they were both first grade And they did a lot of Collaborative work with atomic energy And people like that In fact John Goldack Is still active And he's a year younger than me But he's still active On the research side And has major research doings And I went the opposite way I was The best myself in research When I was tired I still was a student of the teaching sense But I didn't want to go on In the research where I couldn't go away And leave my graduate students For the years to come Tell me what else would That methodological research Of Carleton But the main thing that comes to mind Is welding That's what I've said to the Excellency Could you describe your work on The Gastermine Theory textbook? Oh yes When I was a student I came across a book In my final year Called Gastermine Thea Which had just come out In fact it was the only book I bought In my academic career And I was late in this And I learnt a lot A lot from it And in fact When I went to Aurendra I found that Colin Rogers was the bible there It still happens to be the bible Of course, Royce and Steve And Except that it's something that Rogers is in common And I One of the bigger tracks is going to Bristol When I wanted to look to the university To help with that, Bristol The university had also The Bristol engine company Then Bristol Sydney We go to Bristol University Feeling that we're something to Bristol Sydney And the guy who was the head Of the department was Rogers So the combination of these things Was sufficient To lure me back to the UK I'd no wish to go back to the UK At all, but the case was that Either I stay in the industry In Canada Or I go to the University Now in fact, if I had stayed At Aurendra I'd have been laid off again When your D4 went We'd bust in 65 But anyway, I went to Bristol And then I worked On my PhD At Bristol And then Just about the year Before I left Bristol Rogers was Approached by Longman, the publishers To ask if he and Cohen Would rewrite a second edition Of Gaston Boutier Which he was running for For the first stage So he asked me Because I was working With things they had no idea about Neither of them Had actually worked on Gaston Boutiers Really after they wrote the book They were both very brilliant guys And Rods and Printer was a Phenomenal teacher But they'd not been working in the field At all I'd been working in both industrial Gaston Boutiers, aero Gaston Boutiers Quite a high level So Rods had asked me If I would help them to rewrite this I'd say, oh yeah, I'd love to So I committed And I did quite a lot to that And the modern stuff And double fans and multiple matching And controls and stuff like Stuff like that And Anyway, so that Came out and happened very successful And Cohen Really didn't do much He wasn't interested in doing And then He got out After that And then Rods and I We did a third edition In the book, 17 Drain Of course it was And then Rods got out And I did The fourth edition I did that as a time of project Okay, that was the tradition And then A little bit later 2001 Marked the 50th anniversary In this book, Big Britain So I really should sort of come up with a 50th anniversary edition So I wrote the 50th edition By myself, again The fourth by myself The fifth by myself Okay, that's it, forget it And then a bit later I was like Well, don't get it Calling Paul for his Nicky Who was working with me and these guests Of course he had been running In industry And I was willing to write A design chapter to add Into this, which was missing Which Rods had been very much opposed to With the new author But anyway, I persuaded Paul to give in So I did the sixth edition Which was like, okay, now that's it You believe It's a start to your seventh It's actually Been running In continuous print for 64 years Not bad And it's been translated into Spanish Chinese Japanese And I knew all of it So you've continued to work with the aerospace industry While teaching at Carl, can you tell us a bit about that? Yes, I always When I was In Bristol, I spent more time At Rolls Royce than I spent At the university That was on my doorstep pretty well But when it Came back to Canada I immediately Made contacts with the National Research Council And there was They had been very helpful In setting up the department At Carl and Dr. Copsher Mr. Chappell Carl, those of them were great For what they did in the city But they didn't cast them around the lab At Carlton Of course I also had quite a lot of contacts At Pratt & Whitney that I'd worked with At a render So I managed to Make contact But when I got some grant Money from NRC That I did a lot of joint projects With the Both the National Research Council And Pratt & Whitney And I also got Involved in the NRC I ran the committee But I never seen the Associate Committee Or the subcommittee Of Propulsion It was called the industrial The applicator was called Initially it was called Applications of industrial gas Turned by some of that And NRC eventually When they cut back in a lot of areas Of all these associate committees But the subcommittee Of the associate committee that I started Is still running under the auspices Of the Korean Gas Association So this came out A lot of the work I did On industrial gas turbines Also One of my We had a very strong Working relationship with the NRC And largely the thing that was invented was That NRC had Equipment And no bodies We had bodies and no equipment So we had In many years we had a lot of graduate students The doctorate level The master's level Working at Part time with students at Carlton Working at NRC And the The Indian lab At one stage The They're all my graduate students And then another of my graduate students Started His own company Gas Tops In 1979 And I've been associated with him Ever since And Carlton's got a strong relationship With anyone with lots of students Go there But certainly That I would always Be certainly in my time In a time of 17 years This very strong Cross went between Carlton And NRC And my colleague Professor Schollander Has continued this And some of his PhD students Are now running some parts of it The Gas Dynamics Lab Not the same Indian lab as it So yes Very strong relationship But I've always been sort of A half an industry And half an academia Could you tell us a bit more about The ancient lab at At the NRC and Their special equipment that you mentioned Well they're Indians We were able to do tests with J75s And the PT6s And things like this We have a small PT6 in their own lab But not just for undergraduate Teaching But they also went down facilities Here Quite a lot of the engine testing And there was a lot of work Using some of the big Turbine research rates And several PhDs On those rates from Carlton Is this the institute Of aerospace research? It might be no These These games have all changed now And they There used to be At NRC High speed dynamics And the big wind tunnel Out at the airport Was low speed dynamics The highest speed tunnels Maybe that was only two of them But Bill Rainburt Who actually ran High speed dynamics Was the guy that came to Carlton At the same time as I did So he had a very strong link Continuing with the NRC In dynamics And the other people And others In metallurgy So very strong Very strong link I mentioned a kind of three way relationship Between university research Government research and industry Can you tell us a little bit more about how that works? Well I Thought I had a date On how that works now But certainly there used to be The major source of funding The university engineers Was the national research council Which made it became INSEC But also we got some money Out of industry But this was mainly A personal contact That people had There was not some formal relationship Between the university And Brad and Wendy There was a personal relationship Between Professor X And Mr. Y That worked together And that worked Very well What do you think the government's role Should be in furthering aerospace Research? That's a good question I think it's to support Deserving projects I think the projects have to come out of industry This is something that we Want to do And The top priority That we really should do But we need some financial help To do that That's probably the kind of thing Where it should Commit No If you look at only the world Aerospace There's certainly Every country Does support There's lots of economies Where there's money That should be done Because Certainly the The UK Germany, Japan, the US All of them are very heavily Supported by the government And the thing is It's interesting to I think the government liked 10 years ago 15 years ago But it's the point though If you go back to the 50s I gave this in 2002 And the 50 years of propulsion And I actually traced The history of propulsion Civil propulsion over these 50 years And what was interesting was At the beginning of this period The dominant people In the airplane market Were Douglas and Lockheed No one had me The dominant people in the engine field Were Wright And Pat Whitney Wright disappeared Pat Whitney came very close to Disappearing in big production And who are the people Know that are big in this field Jan Electric Airbus Boeing Now the point was that eventually people Who didn't put money into research Keeping ahead of the game Were overtaken and disappeared Or ended the case in point When they stopped Really advancing They disappeared And as a Wright Who are dominant force In the engine field In the piston field They really failed to make the move From piston engine To the gas turbine And Bristol were very late In making the move from Gas, from piston engines To gas turbines So Fundamentally Government support Is really important To Do these things that you can Immediately justify on a financial basis And particularly Now in North America Were based on quarterly results And that You might have some projects where it takes 10 years to come to fruition Well not companies But look at that If the president is going to say This isn't indicating money This isn't indicating money But in five years from now We'll make a ton of money To get nowhere So They've got to have some help From the government here and there There's been a lot of criticism of the Pat and Whitney have got Quite a lot of support over the years That's had the international success Of Pat and Whitney And I'll say there is no one And if you look for example At the car industry Which is the biggest exporter In Canada That you can see now it's falling apart Because we're not doing anything That can't be done in Malaya Or Korea Or whatever Building cars now Is pretty Mickey Mouse stuff Many countries can actually Build the whole Range of things from aeroplanes To air engines To rockets and space And one of the very few that can do that Is Canada And Germany can't And Japan can't And Japan are not trying to get back Into the market With Mitsubishi Regional J to the Longway behind Channel And Japan For years Tried to get into the engine market And they've been unable To do that Now they do bits and pieces Of other people's engines Kawasaki and IHI Do this In fact Kawasaki We're working with Rolls Royce On ring gas turbines Way back at the time I got my book In 1970 The Japanese are still not Produced Military engines Of any significance in themselves How important is Bombardier In this equation? Bombardier is really quite important Bombardier They're one of the big three In the business Market And that was interesting the way Bombardier got into that Bombardier Had They were building Well, they started the JET The Vinze program By Taking over the Lear JET And And then it was Dick Kretchman Who was one of the great thinkers Of Klee and Neera space And Dick Kretchman at one theatre Ran Douglas Spa And he ran all these major companies Minisys He was one of the first guys in this idea Of taking the Challenger business JET And the thing that was different about the Challenger Was it had a white body Compared to the other business JET And he came up with the concept Of Stretching this To trade payload for range Instead of having a 5000 mile range Of 8 passengers And Canada Bombardier Created the Regional JET And nobody seems to realize Okay The Bombardier C Series Is Late As with the 787 And As with the MRJ The Regional JET As with the Comac 919 All late And it's hard to think of a major Aerospace program that has it on time The engines are actually pretty good But the aeroplanes are not so hard But in fact It was Bombardier that created this whole market And the original Canada Regional JET They sold some like 600 of those And they were the Still are the biggest manufacturer They may have been taken over By Embryer now But conceptually The The C Series Was a very clever idea And look at this niche in the market Unfortunately what's happening now Is that The market is moving up You know where I'm sure the C Series Designed specifically To be normally a 100 passenger Aeroplane Is the right size And like the 1880 Is basically too heavy When you shrink it You finish up with a big tail And stuff like that And so in fact That Airbus got The A320 The new engine family And the A319 The new engine family Was supposed to kill the C Series And then born to about the 737 Max The sales of the A320 family The startling Now what has happened Has been the sales have moved From the A319 To the A321 And now That the The A319 And the smallest 737 Which what the C Series Supposed to compete again Covered about 2% Of the Airbus in Boeing And the Airbus Particularly the A321 Is selling Bigger and bigger numbers And the whole market is moving Up to bigger and bigger aircraft Now if the C Series Gives into service And proves it's successful It should sell well And the question is Who's that market going to be filled I mean obviously Boeing and The C Series have moved out of it The one that's actually filling that market Looked like most C Series Embraer In Brazil But there's I mean I get so annoyed When they talk about the fact That the body thing The program and the development cost Is something like 5 billion dollars Just the other day I saw that The Fiat Chrysler Of a new minivan At a cost of 2 billion dollars Well come on 2 billion dollars For a minivan And then people say 5 billion dollars Is a lot for an advanced airplane So I think that I certainly wish Bombardier well And that the I think it's very much in Canada's Interests that Bombardier Are supporting And that everybody else Is supporting their industry Well we actually At the time that we Did not support the industry And cut off the art or whatever What did we lose We lost an awful lot of good people To me this number of The people that were in doubt With the jerry program and the Bertie program People like Chamberlain and Lindy We're top people We're not appreciated in Canada But they sure weren't appreciated I know this is a big question But How have improvements in aerospace materials Taking place over your career How has that affected your work On turbine engines It's not really affected my work Because what I've really been Doing a lot was Looking at operational problems With gas turbines predicting performance And predicting deterioration And what not so really It doesn't affect my work It just means that Engines are operating at Particularly high temperatures When I was a kid When I joined Starter Working And Aero Engines Real hot chopped temperature On a standard engine Militia engines, but 1100 Kelvin The other car was still 1100 Kelvin RPG211 came into service In the 1450 Kelvin Fence, no uproar And Of course You've got much more cooling In these now, but still Running at 1850 Kelvin The base metal, 1500 Kelvin So there's been In fact The increase In turbine temperature capability That actually has mainly come Not from materials But from air cooling So you find that in fact I think the number is roughly About 80% of the Gain in turbine temperature Over the years has come from cooling Over 20% from materials Can you think of any significant Canadian Contributes kind of contributions To aerospace materials? As again I say I'm not the metallurgist Of the theory I think my answer to that have to be dope Most of the stuff On materials Not what people like Canon, Muskie Gunman, the international Nicole Martin Marietta And people like that There was initially A lot of those work done in Britain But not so much Not so much now I don't know But not really in Canada I think we're actually a buyer Of high-performance What do you think Is your most important Contribution to Canadian aerospace? I've absolutely no doubt Just trained a number Some of the people that I've trained For this up as the chief engineer Of the Royal Air Force The only director Of Rolls-Royce Very senior people at Pratt & Whitney Honeywell Solar We did it A lot of people are very proud of Who've gone on to do things And the gas tops Again, there's a company that started off one guy Dr. McIsaac I helped him from the beginning I was the final director They've now built up to A staff of over 100 120 or so Very high quality specialisation now I've moved on from the work That we started with agent simulation Controls To oil to be monitoring And the water leaders So my As far as I can see My own useful product Is people Do you think Canada Could over time have sustained the fast-chain industry? Yeah, I think we could You know, not necessarily With all the technical capability That But it's basically A will Do you want to do this or not? Canada is too small To do those things What about Sweden? Because Sweden is much smaller than we are But Sweden built Fast aeroplanes for its own use It started with the Drakken Which was Only sold to the Swedish Air Force It followed that with the Viggen Which was also only sold To the Swedish Air Force And these were built to meet Particular Swedish requirements That nobody else had The Viggen, for example Was designed to operate off highways And unprepared surfaces The Viggen, the Drakken And for it the same They eventually developed the Gripen Which The Swedish Air Force started with Themselves They sold that to Czechoslovakia To Hungary, Thailand Brazil, yes And small chambers But the point is that the Swedes said This is what we want for our needs And if we sell it to somebody else great And if we can't, we're still going to do it And we could have certainly done Certainly done that But we didn't And it's interesting I gave a lecture some years ago After the hour Lessons learned And I contrasted Small companies Small countries With small industries That had gone on like Sweden And Holland, for a long time Fokker did extremely well But Fokker eventually Wasn't big enough to survive And Disappeared But Australia Started off after the war They were going to build the aircraft on the license Of saver and things like that But Australia never got beyond doing that They came up with some little making I was thinking of the Nomad We did a lot of problems and never really sold at all But The Canada actually developed The full spectrum of Of aircraft And engines In particular nations I mean, Pratt and Whitney Canada Went after the small market Now, when we looked at jungle crops At the When they first started The sprawled In the early 80s As it was There were five manufacturers There was the There was Fokker There was the Dornier There was Saab And the Bombardier And the ATR In Europe Of these about 80% In Europe Now the all in some of the crops In production of the ATR Family and Bombardier All of which Pratt and Whitney So this is the case The Twin Otter Which they haven't built Never really expected to sell those In 885 of these And now in Viking Air Out West is re-marketing The new Twin Otters Gone forever So there's areas like that Where we've gotten to this niche Who we've done very well But we could have done the same Something with high speed Jets Who did the will to do it What are some of the challenges that you face over your career? Oh, really All I've been very lucky I got fired when I was quite young And I was early into the Computer business And I was very employable Quite quickly I think The only thing I can say Is that I've actually Entertained big decisions When you're really the easy thing to say No, I won't do that Uncomfortable what I am And I mean When I say To leave the UK and come to Canada That was a very big decision I didn't know I was sold in Canada I didn't know I was going to When I was settled in Canada I Got this unexpected Opportunity to go back to Britain Which I didn't plan on doing And they ever get around and told me You're crazy, that's stupid Totally everything So I did it And that was one of the best moves I've made That brought me back And again It was a big move to sort of uproot from Bristol And say I must settle here now It can cost long for the rest of my days here To come back again So every so often You have to make these big decisions And I think a lot of people Fail to do that And then they have to sit in the same old job Forever and they get fed up Possible So I've been very lucky And I've always enjoyed what I was doing That's the most important thing Is to do what you like Because when I spent my Six months in this computer consultancy Which was a very nice company Very good people As in like, not that much So I was just delighted to go back And get back into Engineering What's been the most difficult project That you've worked on? Probably not I've always only been a bit player In these things So I can't answer that question Because the moment Challenging I can say anyone is the most Difficult Have you ever worked for any Particularly dysfunctional organizations? I think I've always been dysfunctional The top I think the whole Focus into the operation Couldn't be much better run And the I say I've always been Low down in this You know the stages You can really realize at that stage That there's always been quite Big chiefs up there What's your fondest memory That relates to your work? My fondest memory is standing on the runway At the first takeoff Of the first British tour I was Very honoured and invited As long as the VNB guest To make the work I've done In the University of Bristol It's quite a memory Or perhaps you could say It didn't manage to Make one to one contract And that was the other hard one What present or absent Were women in your profession Your workplace? Well fun enough when I Went to work for this Computer company I went to work for Lee And that was a very smart Mathematician And it was rather interesting because In those days there was 50 people talking about My name was Miss Milton And When I got to the company I was very surprised to find that Miss Milton who ran This little department was about 8 months pregnant And the fact of the matter was She wasn't Miss Milton at all She was missing somebody, whatever But she worked for IBM And at IBM you couldn't be mine And she had to leave Now my wife's sister Was a stewardess with Pan Am And Pan Am in those days The stewardesses had to retire At the age of 26 Of when they got married And never came first Now there were very few engineers In We had two women engineers In Orenda That when I was a student In the whole faculty Of the University of Glasgow There was one women student In four years But now Carl There are 15% Women We've now got I think it's five women professors So that They're certainly starting to appear More and more But They were not common In My career But they're becoming much more And what is quite interesting is that When I retired I started a scholarship In my name And one of the things that we Wanted for this was not just 28 of the highest Average But people who were bright And who were contributing to society Be it outside the university Inside the university Whatever This is a very major scholarship And although there's only about 15% Of the engineering body of Carl The scholarship are probably At least 60% And a lot of them Are making major, major inroads Into the Profession But certainly It's been gradually rising It's still not as high It shouldn't be One of the problems is So many My wife has killed me for seeing that Women shoot themselves in the foot The physics is hard So they've got physics And once you've got physics They're out of a lot of things But there's certainly As a ton of good women engineers Out there And certainly the women who were through Engineering today Do this as well as they do Often better because they're More happy way Very few women who come into engineering Would drop out Who do you say has been your greatest mentor Or has had the greatest impact In your career? Many people When I first went to a renderer I had a guy called Bob Sacks Who was a great guy He was chief stage engineer He basically taught me All the virtues of working With the right people Sometimes When young guys get into a company At the university They get The cynics A bunch of clowns over there It's all geniuses It's nothing but idiots I recognize very early on Lars because of Bob Sacks influence To get into working with the Kiwi people That were not always Wining in morning The next one was Dick Kwan Who was my direct boss For a long time He hired me back I came back to A renderer He was influential in Getting the job at Carlton Because A number of people Were jealous of me When I applied to this job At Carlton He said he's no good Dick Kwan happened to be The classmate Of the guy who was here He actually stood up for me Over all these boarding And helped me get the job And I was at the highest regard For him I didn't quite funny because One of the criticisms Of me, and just a viable criticism Of me, was I kept a messy desk And the I would say I do But anyway Some of these guys Said he never went to any of these Busy desks But eventually I won a major prize The top prize from the ASME gas turbine institute Which was one of the people I put on Vodom Heim before me So I wrote Dick Kwan And he said that I just won The Tom Slyer award From the ASME He sent me back a lovely email That said Missy Kint makes good And the last but not least Gordon Rodgers Who essentially Brought me Into an academic career It was my Inspiration from way back Along with what I met him And taught me an awful lot And the Also dead now But mostly guys What are the most important lessons That you learned in life? But first of all Do what you enjoy doing Collaborate with people Give credit With credit is due If you get it wrong With it At one stage I remember when I panicked Because I had done some special job And I said Oh my god In the base of the diameter And instead of the radius And I rushed back in And screwed this up But the point is that You never hide Something you've done wrong If you've done From a young lecturer When I was a student A very important lesson That very often The correct answer to the question is I don't know The better answer is I don't know but I've found out By such a treat And when I was a young keen professor And all were saying I don't know But now that I'm an Indian professor I don't know I don't care What do you proudest of in life? I think I've raised A pretty good family My wife and two boys Have done very well And celebrated What they've achieved Quite a powerful look Actually Is there anything else that you'd like to do out there? I would like to One of the traditional professors you asked me That didn't come up with this Was out at my early schooling Which is very important Because I went to a school Called Allen Linn School In Glasgow And this was started by A millwright In 1853 Who decided that there should be a school That offered a good education To the sons of Paysman Who normally wouldn't go on On to higher education And he found this school Which is absolutely outstanding Academic record In a good day I'd remain in fifth In my high school class Necessarily fourth But I remember a whole lot smarter than me Out of my class In high school No less than five Got PhDs In science and engineering Another three became doctors One became a dentist And in fact most of these guys Were in fact the sons of tradesmen Their parents Had been shipyard workers Welders or whatever They were the first generation To go to university And this school turned out All sorts of people like that Left high school And went to university I thought there was less competition at university Than there was in school One of the guys had a virtue Of one of the dropouts That became captain of the QE2 In the senior vice president These were all guys that they had come from What we call What we call the council stage Like all projects here And this was because of the Forsightedness of this guy And unfortunately The city of Glasgow council Killed the school By a set of siblings in yesterday It's not fair for a school to have a selective intake It can only be based on job making And it disappeared In no time This is a high school That is also Amongst the graduates No prize for them And it was actually a high school In the slums of Glasgow It's not a very successful project It certainly was Thank you for your time You're most welcome I'm very glad to have talked to this And I hope I've represented Our end a fairly reasonably I'm actually one of the last ones left All the good people That are dead now That There's a few really deep clans Still going strong But all the key people All All gone But they're really the 90s The 80s The end of the year Yes Important Canadian story