 Welcome back to the Cube Silicon Angles live streaming television show We're here in San Francisco at the first node summit, and I've got with me two guys who are Really key in the node community. I've got Daniel Shaw who is runs the note-ups or Actually, what is it called? It's just note up. So note up is a podcast notep.com at note up on Twitter and the Note up live is something we organized right before node summit And we also have Chris Williams is the organizer of JSConf Which was the event that as Ryan Dahl told us earlier is the place that? node node.js basically launched and Chris also Is involved in a startup. I think it's probably the coolest startup. I've seen here. It's called. Oh, you're being too kind Thank you, though. I definitely appreciate that Aging safely. Yes, and Dan also works at Voxer, which is you know a big node.js adopter. We interviewed Matt Raimi earlier So where do you guys? Think that the node community is going I mean it's grown. It's grown incredibly Quickly, I mean is it a sustainable growth? Is it in danger of of growing too fast? It's you know, it's it we're at a real sweet spot right now where it's small close-knit and Everybody knows each other We're definitely going to be going across the threshold in the next year or so where We're bigger than the group of people that are you know, you can keep into your social group So it's gonna be a real challenge for us. We're it's something that a lot of us are thinking about and that we discussed at length at summer camp last last year we're concerned about it and doing our best to You know be inclusive and and you know make everybody feel at home in the node community Chris so I kind of have a bit of a different perspective and and by no means is that Contrarian or am I trying to be contrarian my my background is mainly from Different languages using JavaScript in different ways and the general broader JavaScript language itself. I Have a concern that I voice sometimes sometimes louder than others that the rapid growth may actually be the downfall of node as well As also the benefit You saw it a bit with rails as it rapidly grew and it became it became the monster that it actually was trying to Combat and I worry that node will just if it doesn't learn from the mistakes of previous Communities, it's doomed to repeat it We see trends in computing programming where the new shiny thing lasts for Maybe seven years and by that seventh year a new new shiny thing and in this case it's node and eventually it'll be Something else. I think that the best thing the node community could do knows you at home would be to actually look at arguments that the Scala community the Erlang community the Python community the Ruby community are making against node and instead of fighting it with oh you you're wrong Try to understand the argument embrace it figure out if there's a solution and a path that can work Or if it's just a complete troll argument and just ignore it I worry that the hype actually ends up hurting Node on both sides because there's a lot of negative hype as well as also positive hype And if we could figure out as programmers how to just be programmers and not be Rubyists or node people I think we'd all be happier and I think There's been a lot of talk here about polyglots, but seriously it's right tool right task node can't solve everything It just can't I mean I do disagree. I don't disagree. No No, I totally agree and and you know the the lessons of Brails and You know it's meteoric rise and and how it you know became a little bit too clickish, maybe You know want to try to You know avoid having that In note and that's that's it's a challenge. I mean the There's a there's a large segment of the note community that's here in San Francisco I don't know if there's someone coming from outside of San Francisco You get a sense that like all the cool kids are here and then there is that side, right? I did I so you know I moved out here at the beginning of this year because I Really was excited about programming node and I was working programming Java and I wanted to program node, you know as my as my day job and San Francisco You know a year ago was the only place that you really do it and you know make a real career out of it That's starting to change now. There there are lots of great opportunities all over the world But I very much see that there's You know it's still San Francisco centric and there's you know a lot of core that's here Well, I think that maybe it's that a lot of companies are doing it but not as public, right? Which is part of growing up It's people don't want to put out that they're using it yet because it's a is this going to succeed We don't want to necessarily be the ones out on the forefront and get cut by the razor But we want to be out at the forefront so that way when it stabilizes right there and we're kicking butt I know that I live in DC, so I'm about as far from San Francisco as I think you can get in the United States and It's a different culture. We're still dealing with large enterprise government contracts that Demand Java and so in some realms It's a different type of world, but by no means does that limit you I know just through the node jam There was at least four companies out of DC that are doing all node based programming Which is really cool to see maybe not all but hybrids of node and other languages Yeah, I there's actually an impressive percentage of companies in no jam that are not from San Francisco There's this core group of the node Community that's that's here in San Francisco, but you know as as no jam demonstrates, you know It's getting adoption all over the United States and you know I was in Italy over Christmas and you know got to go meet the guys and at the the Rome node meetup group and you know, they're they're trying their best to Bring node and explore node, you know, they're going against the grain with this You know For them, it's really really new technology, you know in here in San, Francisco, you know We've kind of accepted node and it's quote-unquote proven They're you know just trying to introduce it at their jobs and justify Using notice on their products now when you say proven proven you want to put that in like quote No, no, I prove like thumbs up even as in You know boxer has Millions of users every day that you know run on top of node, but it's not just node. It's also running on C No, P cap work. No, no, no, okay. It's no no we are node redis and React so redis and react is Erlang right so we have Different you we can't have a stack. We have a stack. We can't there's no sane way we can do a Database and you know the only insane person it is Tim Caswell Doing a database in node. I would love to I would love to Be You know purely in node with a database, but you know the right tools for the job, right? I'm I only wanted to put the air quotes on just because we're at Arguably an infancy in the language. There are things that could pop up that just because we haven't tread through the woods in these pieces Maybe it's just my cynical view, but we still find security holes all over the place in v8 Not even in node not anything that node could do but because we rely on all these different pieces I always get worried when we jump to proven so quickly and I'm not saying it might not end up being that way But I just I try to make everyone be a little bit. Yeah, I think that you know a Solid architectural way going forward. We put a lot of effort into you know making node work and like we're You know pushing so much data that we've we found you know edges in In In flaws inside of node that you don't think you wouldn't expose in an express app You know getting you know a few million hits a day, but you know if you're doing you know Massive amounts of data You all concurrently It stresses the the language and you know we found issues with buffers Inside of node that that basically would not have been exposed unless it was at that scale So I run into different sort of things. I'm trying to scale down So node won't compile on smaller chipsets. Oh, and more arguably fringe But as arm chipsets become more and more popular, it's more and more critical So that's why just to put the air quotes around proven means everywhere all the time right on proven just means We're using it right We haven't gone crazy I don't think I don't think any language closure included at this point You'd say that it's a proven language. It might be proven in some cases, but not all cases Or well skull has been around for a bit But there's some there's one of the benefits of having years underneath your belt Absolutely JavaScript the language has those years Which is a huge benefit for node But we still find things that are Education I'd like you to get back to community One thing that you know it keeps coming up when we talked about the Java the node.js community is how inclusive it is But you know it and as you said that that might become more difficult as it grows, but how do you? Accomplish that what how could another open source community? You know what what's your advice to another community to to achieve what node.js has maybe not in terms of the speed of growth But in the I Just remembering that everyone matters and they have a Their point of view is you know a solid contribution and like We're as a language in the community so young, you know Someone who's old in the community is like two years, you know, that's not that that long so you know people coming in and Approaching new things doing different things with node have new and useful perspectives that you know, we need to keep in mind and You know, we might be in some subset or some corner of know that really works for what we're working on right now But the fact that that people are doing it using it and in different ways makes the entire community richer and You know makes the language stronger and helps us find you know bugs that that what we're we've been working on that little like segment Of it that we're working on, you know, it's not necessarily gonna stress as much in the JavaScript community is It seems pretty similar Inclusive but it's been around longer. It's been growing We've had we've had like ebbs and flows. So sure you had Ajax experience during sort of the bubble and the X HR Giddy-ness and my wife and I started JSConf Four years ago and one of things that we tried to do in building JSConf was cheap things small and intimate If you actually know somebody face-to-face and have had a shared experience with them You're less likely to be like that guy's a Some nasty word or be very aggressive in a response It's there's a human as long as you remember there's a human we find that community works a lot better we've We've every year. We've tried different things and I think for any other language keeping the intimacy the the meeting every person the Connection and then also having some deeper beliefs that are just beyond programming When we do JSConf we try to make it a family event and and by that I mean you don't leave going that was a good event you leave going I made some really deep friendships here And you know I may not see them until I come to San Francisco once a year But I could call up anyone and be like hey kind of crashed your place and they'd be fine with that So we try to make it Come in together and I know other communities are doing that and it's all in sort of picking the right values I'd say and which seems weird. It seems like that shouldn't be in the tech Sphere, but it really does matter so like JSConf we run the budget to zero and whatever money We don't spend at the conference. We donate back We donated last year at the and announced it at JSConf over three thousand dollars to gender and racial diversity outreach programs and That sets the right tone for the community that we want to change the lack of gender and racial diversity But it's not something that you can just do overnight It's something that's going to take a long period of time So we want to get started changing future generations now That's something else you do that impressed me is you have the significant other track We do so that you know when you come to the the conference You're not just leaving your your spouse or your partner at home or you're not just leaving them at the hotel Either this comes from it being a husband and wife team that puts it on My wife is awesome and we came I went to a conference in Toronto It was a ruby fringe and they actually had it so I get no credit for coming up with the idea It changes the whole dynamic if you're a male or a female at a conference there's a general tendency to go out drinking and and Maybe networking a little bit too much Whereas if your spouse is there It keeps it at sort of a professional level, which is very nice and They are happy because they're doing stuff They're not cooped up in the room and it really keeps that whole family sense back in the conference And so I encourage anyone who's running a conference to do to consider doing a significant other track So it's an idea run with it. Okay? Is there anything else you'd like to say to the JavaScript community that node.js community or or about the communities So there's something you know, we're we're going to be exploring Doing the live know it up a little bit more Looking for some venues. We might do something itself by Southwest And maybe try to do something in Europe later this year if you're interested in sort of helping and doing that You know, lineup live is just us going out and sharing and talking to the community. It's not you know anything It's it's a very, you know Like a public like a public forum like town hall meetings. It's not public forum. It's you know, it's a group gathering You know something we have in San Francisco is almost every night. There's a some sort of a tech event and it's an office somewhere and You know, there's a lot of Speaking and you know what we really enjoy most is getting together and geeking out and Talking about what we're working on and sharing ideas. So, you know, that's the kind of thing that we want to share and that's one of the things we try to share with with the podcast and You know another thing with with note up if you have ideas for We've been doing deep dives. We did a deep dive on MPM. We did deep dive on database if there are topics that you want to Want us to cover? definitely, you know know that and You know send those our way look forward to exploring some of this work, right Chris If you're listening at home or watching at home Before you go posting anything on the internet Just think take two seconds think is this negative? Am I being a little bit over reaching that applies for all technology? Communities I made a big call at JS confee you this year to try to change our our mode of operation. There's a Of negative bias that permeates every single media channel and in the whole technology sphere And it's a lot of bitter infighting and it it really doesn't help anything If if somebody comes at you try to take a step back see what the problem is don't go immediately throwing back Spears and knives and don't go plus oneing on the piles that that really you know Maybe two people should just have it out not have the audience or the arena of people Cheering them on if we could do that. I think the whole technology field as as a total group could be a lot happier A lot better place Great. Well, thanks a lot guys