 telecom exchange CEO roundtables both for our guests here in the audience at telecom exchange NYC and for our viewers joining us on Periscope as well as on JSA TV. We'd also like to thank our Wi-Fi sponsor Kelly Dry. Our third panel today is on the growth and trends of unified communications and its necessary network infrastructure needs. We're honored to have Mr. Evan Christel, social media business strategist with over 71,000 followers on Twitter probably more by the sense of spend what a good half hour. He is our number one social media influencer on Twitter for Ucom hashtag as well as others. With 20 plus years of sales alliances and biz dev experience in the comms infrastructure and applications arena Evan brings a unique perspective on opportunities in the unified communications and collaboration segment including deep knowledge of social, mobile, and the voice, video, web, collaboration, market, and technology. I should also say he's probably the number one reason why tech-cited is trending right now on Twitter so we're really proud and excited to have Evan. Thank you. Welcome Evan. After the tweet though. Thanks very much. It's great to be here and what an amazing event. I'm worried we may have scared off some of the attendees here calling it unified communications. I hope next year we could maybe rename the panel like business communications or collaboration. Actually a bug, you know, kind of bugbear of mine is the name unified communications. I think it's kind of long in the tooth. Probably a misnomer in terms of what the industry is all about and hopefully we can maybe correct some of the images that are portrayed, some of the old-fashioned images that are out there about what unified communication is and the value it provides through this panel. So hopefully that's one of the goals. Maybe we could start with introductions. Michael, you want to start and we can work our way down and introduce yourself and more importantly, you know, the role you play in the ecosystem because I think you see is about the ecosystem. It's not about a product or service or a solution but, you know, your unique position within that ecosystem and your differentiation, the value, bring the, let's say, the community. Hi. Nice to meet everyone and if I'm saying something someone else had said on the panel before, raise your hand and I'll get the hint to shut up. So I'm the CEO of Metro Optic. We are a Canadian provider of fiber solutions and data center solutions and what do we bring to unified communications? First of all, I had to Google that term to figure out what it really meant. So, but there was no other term I could think of either that would do a good job of replacing that. So GSA certainly, you know, took the best term to explain something that's really important, which is what does integration mean of, you know, voice, video and data. What we provided Metro Optic is three elements of that. We provide what I call supporting infrastructure, which is capacity, both from a fiber perspective where we have dark and lit fiber solutions and we own and operate that network. And then we have data centers in Montreal, eight of those. And one data center that we're just opening in Toronto. And the third part, which is really the most important part is the interconnect piece. So we own one of the carrier densest sites in Canada. And we just see that unified communications needs access to multiple providers. It's not just about redundancy, but it's also about the ability to reach eyeballs. And it's the ability to actually support applications. And I think that's the fundamental difference. What drives, what makes a good application? And what do you need as supporting infrastructure to deliver that? And that's really what we're trying to, is our value position to the customers and the ability for us to interconnect to the providers, but at the same time reach the eyeballs through our Metro fiber network to all the data centers in the area really makes a big difference. So that's exactly what you, how you introduced us. And I think it's, it's, it's dead on. Great. Thank you. James? Sure. James Martino, how are you? CEO of a Votis, we're about a 35 year old firm. We have been providing our customers with visibility and the ability to manage usage data and investment data around their telecom networks for a long time now. Within the unified communications space, we're very active. We are on an evangelical mission actually within the space. We believe that unified communications are a key and important part of the ecosystem as we migrate from the old TDM world to a VoIP world to a UC world in a collaborative world. And however, we've noticed that many of the almost all of the platforms within the UC space have within them certain features that when not adequately monitored or checked for abuse, that those features can be used to create significant risks to the enterprise. So we developed a UC analytics package that tracks all of the different sessions that take place within a UC platform. And we've integrated it with Avaya and Microsoft Link and GenBand and BroadSoft and all the major providers out there. And we're able to give our enterprise customers a very unique visibility into everything that's taking place on that UC platform. And by doing that, they can avoid some of these risks that are hiding within the UC platform. So we're, we're huge proponents of UC, but as it grows and becomes four or $5 billion industry over time, we want to make sure that our customers are and our partners in the carriers are deploying it in a responsible way. So as not to introduce unknown risks into the organization, which we can talk about later. That's great. Yeah, telecom and UC in particular has been this kind of black box for ages where, you know, you can't see what's going in. You can't see what's going out. So it's pretty powerful. Yeah, so we help you look inside the black box, save money and organize all that data. Excellent. Amitava, we just were introduced and kind of going through like memory lane, a moment ago. I'm surprised we're not related. Unfortunately. But I want to introduce yourself. Right. Nice to meet you. My name is Amitava Mukherjee. I'm the CEO of Redshift Networks. We're a company based out of California. So we've been in the carrier industry for months since 2012. And what we do is we provide a security for voice networks or voice IP specifically. What we've seen is a lot of carriers as they're deploying unified communications. Some of the issues in there is security and to look at anomalous traffic patterns. So what anomalous traffic patterns are traffic that is not normal inside their network. So of course, that could be attacks that could be misconfiguration. So it could be troubleshooting issues. So we've actually taken a look at that and looking at it from a analytics point of view, looking deep inside the network. So we have probes in the network, taps in the network to look at all these traffic patterns of SIP traffic and looking for all these anomalies. And we're patent of that. We call it a UCTM, a unified communication threat management product. What we've seen is these attacks on voice networks are from all over the world. They are basically voice botnets that people have. Of course, you guys know fraud. Fraud is a 37 billion dollar problem. That's one instantiation of that problem set. What they're doing is they're trying to steal your phone and then they make fraud. So if you can actually protect them before they steal your phone, through looking at deep analytics on the network, at the network layer, that's what we provide. Of course, all the other things that are along with it, DDoS, and they're like 40,000 different attacks on voice space. We work with almost 23 carriers around the world. Some of them are Frontier, Central Link, Comcast, AT&T, Telefonica, America Mobile, ATT, SoftBank, some very large carriers. And we've got a product that's out that people are in like it now because SIP is getting a huge amount of deployment globally. As you know, the Cable Robbers are moving towards SIP and so are all the SIP truncings and growth, unified communications and growth. So we provide that deep analytics and anomaly detection layer that a lot of carriers need. And we're expanding globally now. We're in mostly North America, little tidbits in Japan and Mexico and UK. And of course, slowly we're expanding globally at this point right now. Thanks for being part of the panel. Yeah, that was fascinating. I worked for three SBC companies and we never did any of this. So it's interesting you built a layer on top of what session border controllers, for example, aren't doing. Right, exactly. So we basically complement the SBC in every deployment we work with. Right. And Al, it was a really good meeting you earlier and I appreciate the video. You almost need a video introduction to talk about your user experience and the value that Console Cloud brings. Maybe you could describe it in words, given lack of a video here. So yeah, my name is Al Berge. I'm the CEO and founder of Console. We're headquartered in Silicon Valley, California with offices globally. Unified communications, obviously voice video, for us it's, you know, another application and it is dependent on network. Organizations like Michael and Metropdic do a wonderful job in helping organizations connect to one another within a local region. But when you think of unified communications from a customer's perspective, you know, they're worldwide. And voice over IP, for example, is something that has a tendency to be very latency sensitive. And what Console has done is really created a platform that helps organizations completely bypass the public internet and directly connect what's business critical. This could be cloud infrastructure providers. It could be SaaS providers. It could be another organization within one supply chain, regardless of where they're located. And we've basically created various technology, including routing technology and so forth, to make this happen at a click of a button. So imagine something similar to a social network where, based on one's own self-defined criteria, you feel it's important to connect to another organization. You'd click a button they accept and you're now directly connected. The user experience on our platform resembles that. We've extracted all of the friction and configuration complexity to help organization A to connect to B within seconds. And it could be enterprise connecting to enterprise or enterprise connecting to cloud or cloud connecting to cloud globally. It doesn't matter if the other organization is the other side of the city or the other side of the country or the other side of the planet. We've created that virtual equivalent of A and B, being in the same room together, without having to endure any of this configuration complexity. And they have now a private, secure, better performing connection to optimize the user experience. And so that's, you know, in a nutshell what we've created with our console platform. Thanks. That's great. Last but not least, Brian. It's good to have you here as a provider in that perspective. Maybe you could share a bit of background. Yeah. Thank you, everyone, for coming. My name is Brian Shatko, the CEO of the Unified Communications that everybody is talking about. So I expect some royalties from everyone who mentioned it. So I keep, keep your notes about it. But you know, by bearing the name, we have a lot of responsibilities on the unified communications. And as such, obviously we're involved in our legacy voice business, including IoT, and we're also getting the infrastructure with our sponsorships of the Balkans Italy Network cable. It's a fiber optic cable that will connect Western Europe with the Balkans, which is an area that is currently underserved. What we bring to unified communications, the solution itself, is we work with operators to better maximize their ARPU, whatever their users are around the world, by targeting these communities with a better offer, better solutions to basically maximize this revenue per user. Great. Thanks very much. So the first question I'd like to pose has to do with evolution versus revolution. For those of you who lived in Breed Telecom, many in this room for many years, you have sort of the personal battle scars of living the sort of TDM to IP sort of evolution, long, painful process, not yet complete. But I think we're rapidly hitting on sort of revolutionary territory with a lot of the developments that have happened over the last really short number of years. Maybe you could talk about how you see that evolution unfolding and what are some of the key technologies and sort of initiatives, whether it's the API economy or some of the evolutions in IP networking that are really going to accelerate this evolutionary process to really make it more impactful to the enterprise, to the consumer. So I think evolution versus revolution. Michael, do you want to comment on that? Yeah. I mean, I can't comment on it from a user perspective as much as many of the other panel members can. What I can tell you is that I think fundamentally, internet traffic is exploding and you know, you look at the Cisco data, IDC data, you know, we're growing three, four fold within the next five years. So we have to address that. And I think there's an implicit assumption in that, that the infrastructure providers will do their job and they'll be well funded and they'll support that. But also the middleware, the application layer, the unified layer that will support that. And I think that's a big assumption quite frankly. Now, what can we do? Where is the world going from where to where? What we see is that there's a big shift in where that internet traffic comes from and that we need to support. So it's going from a transactional process oriented IOPS type of queries to video and voice demand and several other rich applications. But those two are the big ones. And then the question then is really how do we support that? And a lot of it is quite frankly has to do with simply capacity. So we need the network capacity and we need the data center capacity. And what we're learning is that the secret source we need to deploy is the interconnection magic in the middle so that people have choice, that there is redundancy in the system, that there aren't too many direct dependencies. The second piece goes to a really tricky issue of peering all that stuff. And how can we help in the middle? And what we are seeing is we need to become better at network architecture. And how do you create the interconnectivity between these networks even as a data center provider and dark and lit fiber provider so that your enterprise customers, you know, understand why it's better to be here versus in another location. Great. That's very helpful. James, you want to talk about the move the enterprises are taking to become cloud enabled software defined. What that means for your business in terms of, you know, revolution versus just some of the evolutionary stuff they've been doing for years. Yeah. So, you know, it's an interesting thing, right? So I've been coming to this conference since it started about 10 years ago. And one of the things when I'm sitting around with some of our when I go through this this type of show, I run into like 15, 20, 30 different people that I've gone to war with together with mostly not again, we compete. And when I go through that, you know, one of the things that if you really get us with about three or four scotches in us and we start talking, right? So one of the things we'll talk about is the difference between the folks that built the internet and the folks who capitalized on the internet, right? So we did all this hard work, right? We laid fiber optic cables. We built networks. We figured out topology. We got everybody to work together so we could pass information back and forth. And meanwhile, then a bunch of Bratz out in Silicon Valley went and created all these other cool apps and LinkedIn's and Facebook's and they threw it over the top, made billions of dollars and we're like, you know, that was relatively easy compared to what, you know, what we did. So when I look at the Bratz in Silicon Valley, I'm going to use that. That's right. There you go. Bratz and Silicon. I feel like, you know, being a telecom for 24 years is more like being in the mob. It's like, you know, once you're once you're in, you can't get out. These networks don't build themselves, my friend. So so when I when I look at things and we're going into the future, I think one of the things that we're focused on at least is not just enabling infrastructure and enabling technology, but really to go beyond that and think about things like information, right? Information has value. So we're big into what the big data scene. All right. So one of the things we are always trying to do for our customers is to capture lots of information and create queryable, reportable, searchable databases that provide that customer with a lot of information on what's taking place on their network. Okay. And lo and behold, as we're doing this for whatever reason we're doing it along comes this big word called, you know, big data. And there's conferences that just talk about big data. And as you get into big data, you start to there's two things that data analysts have have issues with, right? One is they need to find data because the enterprise doesn't have it. And two, if they can find the data, they want to be able to organize it and manipulate it in a way in order to create value. So I think where we need to be as an industry is we need to start helping customers turn information into profits and information into competitive advantages. So that's what we've been focusing on. And we like to think about all that information that we capture about, let's say, unified communications platform, who made what phone calls, who made what was on conference calls, what was going on instant messaging, what was the text in the information. That information is very valuable to a data scientist. So we're working hard to capture that information, put it in a reportable format, and then do partnerships with folks like, we do a partnership with a first company called Trustphere. And Trustphere has actually taken that data and they begin to create these big, wonderful graphs that show you how your organization actually works compared to what the org chart says about how your organization should work. So I think that's going to be a big thing as we go forward is, can we as either enablers, network carriers, solution providers with companies, can we give them information that gives them a competitive advantage? And can we help them to sort that out and become a key strategic partner? Because I think for too long, we've been selling to a small part of an organization at the IT level or the telecom or CIO level. And then we don't get back up in the organization. But if we can take that information, we can give them a competitive advantage, then CFOs, CMOs, CEOs, HR heads, those are the folks that all of a sudden become very interested in what you're doing. Great. Nami Tava, you've discovered a whole range of requirements that enterprises didn't know they had until they opened up with these new services and applications and realized they had some major gaps, right? So maybe you could talk about what those are. Sure, sure. Yeah, so definitely. So basically, what we see following to what James was saying about information and how to use that information at a higher layer. So we see a lot of that where we're able to take a lot of the security aspects of information, of the anomalous data of information and then set it up to the high alerters, whether to be linked in other applications. You know, what we see in the API economy is the need for integrating all that. So different companies are trying to take information and using that for their own applications, whether they be banking, whether they be finance, whether they be health care and others. There's all a new area called conversational commerce, which is something very interesting also. And what that is is really being able to use that data to do commerce. So I have a friend who started a company and I'm unfortunately guilty in part of that Silicon Valley crowd, as they say. So we started a company and it's all about using voice recognition to look at sales data. So I come out of a meeting and I'm going to a meeting so I'm going to meet Citibank. I'm going to find out all about Citibank and I just talk into this computer system and it tells me all the latest about what Citibanks is doing, what their revenues are, what their groups are doing within Citibank. So it's just taking feeds of the internet and reading it to me. Then I come out of my meeting and I go in there and I can talk intelligently. I come out of there and then afterwards I talk about what I learned in the meeting and I send it into my CRM system by talking to it. And it starts integrating all the data and send it to all my sales team. So that's an application that's very interesting. It's part of these conversational commerce, which is the application that I'm residing with the APIs, with the integration of some of the data James was talking about and others points of data into some of the business layers. So we see a lot of that. And of course, being a security company, security is a very key ingredient of that. So you're able to dissect that piece and make sure that you have silos of security in all of those segments is also very critical as we integrate these environments also together. When I'm chatting with my artificial bot at Citibank, I want to know that conversation. Exactly. So Al, we were talking earlier and there's this often overused buzzword around digital transformation. And it's but actually, I think it really applies to what you're doing in the evolutionary versus revolutionary standpoint. Maybe you could talk about how you're really taking a revolutionary approach to how companies and providers connect and build networks. Yeah, certainly. In part as I guess part of that evolution, there is pressures on various CIOs and so forth. In seeing their organizations adopt more cloud, taking workloads and processes and so forth that would typically be conducted or reside on the enterprise data center or enterprise LAN and now moving it to the cloud. And with that, there's this realization now that as whatever the cloud service is, whether it's a cloud infrastructure or some SaaS application or what have you, the enterprise becoming more dependent now on connectivity leaving their building. IE, public internet, for example. And the public internet is something that is really this best efforts utility where you're not really in control over the path or direction of your data and so forth. And it's not consistent. It's susceptible to various performance and security issues and so forth. And so now when you have your valuable data living in the cloud and you're moving that, ideally, you're cognitive of that as part of that decision process. But in many cases, enterprises are realizing after the fact that now that they're more and more dependent on the cloud, how do we attain better performance in our experience in utilizing what we now have in the cloud. And so this whole notion of directly connecting. It's easy, I guess, if you're using a cloud that is within relatively close proximity. But what if it's a cloud company A is the other side of the country, SaaS company B, also the other side of the country, your financial partner or what have you, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, globally. I mean, it's not necessarily in your backyard. And so for some, for those applications or cloud services that are much greater distance, there's this need to then, for organizations, thinking of directly connecting to these sort of things. Historically, this has been something that has been a very manual exercise needing to identify the location and building into that location, et cetera, et cetera. So it's highly manual, does not move at the speed of business, requires the average enterprise to have a seasoned team of internet architects on staff to go and configure. You can be very politically correct to mess. And so, you know, it's and it's not a one time exercise, you know, need to manage and monitor all of this stuff. And so we wanted to create a solution that made all of that easy, all of the friction and complexity in every step of that process could be fully automated such that an organization once on our platform just needs to click, click a few buttons and the magic happens and they're completely bypassing the public internet and connecting to these business critical cloud services and so forth. So I think this is a very important part of the evolution, this digital transformation that's happening and so forth where the comment of the Silicon Valley Brats, I mean, creating all of these applications and so forth, but no one really taking the time to, I guess, reinvent or create additional technologies from, you know, layers one, two, three at the network sort of layer and that's what we focused on and how to make that better, how to make it simpler and make it consumable, make it enterprise grade and make it consumable for the enterprise such that it helps enable cloud taking away that friction and really allowing all of this to move at the speed of business. I need it, I need it now. Please let me click a button, you know, and have it happen. Fantastic, thanks. Brian, you're a provider, so you have to balance all these evolutionary, interesting new services with what customers need and want today. So how do you see that mix of delivering services today over what's the next big thing that you see on your agenda? Well, for us, cloud is very important because the cloud allows us to repurpose our resources that, you know, previously we needed to reach to our customers. And as such, I believe that utilizing, you know, the API economy, utilizing the cloud, puts us in a better position to more effectively and more efficiently reach to our customer and serve our customer better because cloud gives you efficiency, it gives you connectivity and at a lower latency because you have your pops sort of virtually located around the world. And for us, it's the movement to the SaaS and to the cloud. It's not revolutionary but evolutionary, but in the way we serve our customer, it appears to be revolutionary, so. Great, that's helpful. As you all selling into the CXO suite, you're selling to CIOs, CTOs, I think every last one of you here, you get these challenging questions about ROI. You know, what's my ROI in terms of CAPEX? You know, dollars are tight in terms of OPEX. That counts constrained, you know, NetX in many cases, kind of a misunderstood part of the sort of financial model. So what's your position there and what's your story, if you will, on how you can meet those drivers to reduce all three elements of there as well as provide value add in terms of collaboration and communication. How do you balance those two? So I guess ROI is part of the next question for each of you. Yes, Kaddicks. So it's a loaded question. I think it, I have to say it really depends. For us, we're again an infrastructure provider, both on the fiber and data center side. The big question is clearly in-source, in-house source is outsourced. And what we see is an extreme shift from demand coming from enterprise to demand coming from the digital economy. And we have to adapt to that. And you know, with the enterprise, it's an ROI on, okay, if I do this in-house source is outsourced with the digital guys, they know your business just as well as you do and they actually know it better because they deploy in so many different geographies with so many different providers, you better be on top of your game. So if you're Snapchat, you don't have to show your ROI on investment. No, you don't. They'll get, they'll right away come to the SLA and the price and they know exactly and they'll shop around and they'll try to give you as short of a contract for as long of a capital commitment on your side. So I think it really depends in which bucket you fall. And again, for us, it's the ability, what we really see the complexity of the ROI being for them is that, you know, what is cloud now and how do we work with that because it's efficient in so many ways but at the same time, it's everywhere and sometimes they need proximity to the eyeballs. This is something we constantly come up with and so they want services deployed closer to the consumer of the services but that creates an infrastructure challenge and an investment challenge and well, what does that give me then? Well, it gives me better performance. Well, that's important for the digital crowd. That is less important for the enterprise customer in general. Now if you talk to the transaction guys, they will spend adequately for extreme protection and redundancy in the system and that's again an element that is hard to quantify, right? So, I'm not giving you- What's the cost of not doing it? What's the cost of an outage? What's the cost of the entire time? That's it, exactly. So I can't really give you an answer that has really tight metrics around it but I think you have to be really good at... This is a challenge of getting to the decision maker one and two is really understanding what's driving this requirement and that's business basics but it's so much harder in this digital economy where everyone talks to everyone and they think they know everything and then you've got down two, three layers talking to the techie guy who's deploying it and you're talking to the sales guy who's giving you his cloud vaporware and okay, what is exactly the application that we need to service? Where do you need it serviced from? What are your requirements for that in terms of performance? And once you get to that point, you can do an ROI because you know what you're solving for. 90% of the time it is the hardest thing in the world to get to that right person, to ask the right question, get a specific answer and then being able to respond. Yeah, no, it's certainly selling 101. Is it James, when you're dealing with a CFO, maybe your CIO, what is your story around the return on that investment and I guess pretty data-driven given your products? Yeah, I think there's two things I'll touch on here. When it comes to UC analytics, there is an ROI that you can really calculate and watch because you can see how the enterprise is utilizing the technology. So I like to think of spending on telecom and technology as investments. I don't use the word expense, I call them investments because really, there's a kind of a subtle underlying tone there that says we should invest in telecom and technology because it's gonna make our people more productive and it's gonna help us to have a better organization. And that underlies almost everything you see in the telecom space and that underlying piece has moved us from TDM to VoIP to UC and I think the business case is pretty strong there. But I'm gonna go kind of beyond that. I'm gonna talk about security. So you can talk to any CIO in America and they will tell you about the vast amounts of money that they are spending to protect their networks. Security, security, security. And they are spending billions of dollars, arguably building walls that protect their enterprise from the rest of the world. Now, I sat down with one of the heads of security for IBM and he said, look, there's three major areas of security vulnerability in enterprise. They are platforms, processes, and people. And I was kind of geek, MIT geeks and so forth. We are cool with the platforms and the processes. We can get ourselves into that. But I kind of tell you, these people, these people are completely unpredictable and it's very hard for us to protect the network from people and I just don't mean the bad people. I mean even the good people. So I'll tell you how you can infiltrate any enterprise network in America, okay? Go out and buy a bunch of... Do we need to get the witness protection? Yes, witness protection, okay? So go in your drawer and collect a bunch of old keys that you have and put them on a key ring, okay? Take a key fob with a USB port and put a virus on it. Now, make about 20 of these, go over to your favorite enterprise customer and go into their parking lot and drop those sets of keys all over the parking lot without any identifying piece of information on the keys. What you will find will be all of these wonderful, altruistic, best employees that you have in your firm will find those keys and feel so bad for their coworker who has lost their keys, they will pick it up and they will bring it into the office. Unable to identify whose keys they are as it nags at them more and more, they will notice that it has a key fob on it and they'll say, oh, God, if I plug this key fob in, I bet you there'll be some information and I can then identify the owner of these keys and bring them back to them, okay? And within a couple hours of leaving those keys around, you will be inside their network with whatever type of virus you want and the billions of dollars of money spent to create security outside that will all have been bypassed in a few minutes by your best employees, okay? So when I talk about return of investment, I say you need to watch your employees. You need to watch the bad ones, the medium ones and even the altruistic ones because they are gonna do things on your network utilizing the tools that you have that potentially are gonna put you at great risk. So the ROI on a UC analytics package of three to 5% on top of a UC deployment is peanuts compared to the amount of money you can lose when your employees either deliberately or altruistically jeopardize your security and bypass all of that wonderful software you've been sold. That's great. It probably doesn't hurt that that's ignored by most of the UC vendors out there so it makes your life a little easier. Redshift, you have a pretty interesting but esoteric technology, how do you communicate that to the CIO and the value and the investment required for you? So again, going along with James, some securities are bread and butter and of course, security is a huge issue for a lot of companies, Target, Sony, all the good things that you guys have heard about in the last year, CIOs losing jobs, et cetera. So such a big issue they're investing, I think it's a $100 billion industry or $150 billion industry. There are gangs out there that are doing DDoS attacks. So DDoS attacks, there's a whole chain of people out there that it's about a $250 billion industry just evolving around DDoS. So basically there's a guy who does the DDoS, guy who steals the data. So it's like a whole of food chain out there. Same thing with fraud. So fraud is a $37 billion industry. There are people that actually go steal telephones, the SIM cards, et cetera, and there are people that actually do the actual fraud. So there's a whole, it can say supplier, reseller, you know, whole chain of command out there. Same thing for all these other attacks. So when we go into a company and we talk about ROI, the most important is what are you losing in fraud today? What are you losing in security today? What is the reputation to your customers? What is the impact on your business? Companies who get attacked, there's about 2.5% loss in revenue in a year after they get attacked. Of course, Target was a big issue. Their revenues went down, et cetera. I wasn't going to Target for the month, I think, but I heard that our cards were all stolen, right? Because I didn't want to have that happen to me. So you can imagine the impact of our company. So we talk about all those ROI numbers. Of course, when it comes to voice, they're a little different because people are used to all the information about data threats, right? How about the voice threats? So what we see is interesting out there is we show them, I mean, I have a site called, if you go to VoIP-attacks.duretshipnevers.com, you'll see actually the attackers attacking real carrier networks today. So what they do is they'll attack networks in New York in the morning, California in the afternoon, and Tokyo in the evening. So they're basically going, the same guys are attacking all these networks consistently. And so there is definitely a coordinated effort to attack these networks. And so we give them very empirical data because we're able to take a lot of the data that we see when we do the first trial with a customer. We can give them empirical data, what they're attacking, who they're attacking, what they've done to your network. And that way they have some really solid information to go build their business case within the CIOs and with the CTOs and CEO of the companies. It is definitely a huge issue. Just what do you see in the data world? The attacks are happening in the voice world. Unfortunately, a lot of carers don't know about it. So when we bring them the empirical data of what's happening in the network there, it's an eye-opener for them. That's huge. I mean, imagine if you're 1-800-FLOWERS and your network goes down on Mother's Day. Good luck with that explanation to your CEO. So empirical data is also very important for them. Al, your ROI seems almost too obvious in terms of OPEX savings and efficiencies. But is that how you explain the value to a financial decision-maker? Absolutely. So there's, I think it's Gardner. It says that the average enterprise, for example, is using 23 cloud services SaaS applications. I think in the case of our company, just for our own internal use and so forth, it's in north of 40. But that average of 20 plus. And it's obviously growing. Looking at alternative methods for a CIO to actually go out and consume these applications in a very direct manner, there's significant OPEX, reoccurring OPEX, and one-time CAPEX involved for them. But when leveraging our platform, what they'll notice is north of 50% savings in OPEX versus many of these alternatives. And from a CAPEX perspective, north of 95% savings. And this is, some of our underlying technology includes the fact that we've created routing technology. So it's equally feature-rich as that of a Cisco or Juniper or what have you, and not have to go out and spend tens of thousands of dollars. We own the IP, and so we have the equivalent for pennies. And the ability to give that technology seamlessly to an enterprise in every location that they would require that. So we spin it up, and seamlessly within our platform there's these virtual routers. We've been able to virtualize it as well and allow it to spin up globally. And so there's a dramatic CAPEX savings for the enterprise when leveraging our solution. That's a great story. Brian, I imagine you have a lot of customers unhitching their PBX and moving to you in the cloud. That's probably one scenario. But what are some of the others that you see in terms of demonstrating the financial return on moving to you as a service? Yeah, just to continue on the security theme, because it's a very important one. Obviously, your return investment is as good as you secure it. It takes one breach, one attack to basically mess up your numbers for the entirety of the year or so. The ROI, it's affected by the investment that you do in securing this. So that brings down that percentage, and it affects the way you operate. But we live in a different world nowadays where basically security is paramount. And the biggest of them companies that have our miss of IT people trying to make it secure get bridged. So you just hope you don't get a bit lucky, but you also have to put the investment to secure it. And that affects the ROI. And we are facing a lower ROI in terms of dealing with these new challenges that we're facing. So Jamie, how are we for time? OK, I think we covered a lot of really interesting topics. And happy, I think many of us are going to stay around here. And happy to chat and discuss further. Thanks, guys. Thanks.