 We have for you tonight at this time. We have Marlaine here. Marlaine Sticker She's the founder of Waag Society and Waag. Well, all things start with Waag or hers more or less She did she started the Digital City, Digitales Stadts in the Netherlands and through Waag Society social responsible for something like the Fairphone, which most of you probably know She organizes Picnic, at least Waag organizes Picnic, which is one of the nicest festivals in Amsterdam on technology and new things Accompanying her is Tom here and If for some reason It is hardly possible with Marlaine, but if for some reason she needs assistance Tom is here is CTO of Waag Society Talk today will be about about decode about taking back data for society for your For yourself, so please give her a warm welcome great applause from Marlaine Just to explain that Tom I will talk about the decode project and Tom is involved in the whole architecture for that so When we speak about decode Tom can explain a lot, but I will start more with a general introduction because I think one of them the Situations that we're in is that we are in a transition and it has to do with the Distributed nature of the internet and there's a lot of good things coming from it This whole distributed nature of the protocol enables people to participate to like in 24 years ago to build new civic parts of the internet without asking for permission This horizontal innovation helps people to Engage without the need of having a lot of capital. So there's a lot of really nice things happening because of the internet and When I'm in the field of non technologies like not in a hackers environment I was explained it has to do with the protocol and the internet's architecture It also enables to to be to think in other scales So instead of thinking about global networks, we can think about translocal networks about collaboration between local entities Because we can distribute knowledge distribute information distribute software and code So the city became more An actor in this in the whole playing field And it also gave rise to the comments the whole movement around open source open hardware Open knowledge is a very very truthful very interesting movement and it's gaining momentum More more people are also bringing together the story about the the planetary boundaries Together with the natural resources the natural comments with the comments that we produce that we create Especially in the technology field. There's a lot of open comments being created But then we have the other downside and I think a lot of people will have been talking about this I think my the person spoke to me before was talking about the effects of this monetizing of data So in this beautiful disputed structure There are some really big companies that centralize the information centralized the the smartness of their services and a Lot of people talk in a general field people talk about sharing economy, but I think this is this is a very problematic term So I prefer to talk about platform corporates and some people will talk about surveillance capitalism and all these this Big big five organizations and this kind of type typical huge corporations threatening sovereignty There would not be enough if it's not also that all the capital around startups also Forcing startups that want to build services on the internet in the same direction also monetizing on data So what will be the future of the internet? Well, it's it's it's more about the business model than the technology I think we all understand that technology is not neutral you can do both sides You can create beautiful open disputed technologies We also can create monetizing on data and centralized models So what is the business model behind all these technology? And I think this is has to do with the model that we are working with the economic model of the 20th century This is not something that was really a fact. This is a model that's been pushed upon our societies So it's a framework that defines how value is being created and what the exchange is between capital and labor And this is a somewhere else and who actually said it must work like this Now all we have to do is prove it well We are now in the 21st century and we realize that a part of this system the so-called Model is not working and we know the because of Piketty we know because of the Zero dot zero one percent we know about it because of Occupy So there's a lot of movement in reclaiming economics and saying this model doesn't work anymore We can't use this model to create the value structures that we need for the 21st century so We are here to talk about technology and thinking about what's inside of the black box and trying to open algorithms But I think we also have to talk about hacking economy and hacking the models that are actually steering the investments and steering The companies that making technologies So if we talk about the box not out of the box, but about the box, what is the box? What's inside of the box? You have this very nice scheme in in how the 20th century's economics works It's sort of like an engineering drawing And all the all the other stuff is outside of it so commons social circular open source sharing Corporatives there are all outside of this box because people will say this is not economics. It doesn't make money So head so so nice that you're doing this nice open source projects, but it's not part of our Model so we want to invest in IP we want to invest in patents We want to invest invest in startups that monetize on data And we don't know how to deal with companies and organizations that create value in a commons model So are they nice to have or need to have that's I think the question and It's a fundamental difference in the value proposition. So the platform corporate if you on the one hand Have a very specific idea how you can deal with their Platforms and they own everything and you can sort of use the system, but you will have no reciprocity in it There's nothing that you can Can it won't open itself? It won't give anything data back It's just a platform and all the intelligence in is situated mostly in Silicon Valley But of course it also counts for the Russian and Chinese and other companies that do this in other environments and the platform corporates are based on reciprocity. They are based on transparency and a collaborative ownership Which is a specific different values proposition So yes, I think we do to gain back our control over our data We have to also to think about other economic models and we also have to start to hack economics I think I'm not sure if there's ever been Big conference like five thousand people gathering with tents about hacking economics But it would be really great if we would have something like this I said there are some students that are working on reclaim economics and there are some Economist that's actually Rethinking economics and Kate Rayworth is one of them. I just want to plug her book donut economy I think she makes a very good attempt. She's been called the 21st century's Keynes Which is not sure if you are happy if they call you Keynes But says something about the potential influence that you could have And I think Kate Rayworth really really makes the the step that we need to rethink and reclaim economics So she both brings back brings together the planetary boundaries So we know that is a we can't grow on the same speed as we did we have to redesign and rethink growth But it's also an economics that is based on social justice So we know that every nice Piece of technology that we have and it's everywhere in our in our camping site here They all have a backlash but either on the the resources The working conditions in which they've been created They're most of them are not repairable Maybe maybe some people here in this in the room know how to repair them most people that buy the iPhones and other stuff They don't know how to repair their stuff. So you just throw it away And there are a lot of conflicts minerals in it even for the Teslas and the beautiful electric cars that run on On batteries batteries are a real problem. They're not nice Solutions batteries are a huge problem and they again Have a lot of influence in the Congo on the places where they Have the minerals to make the batteries So the next step that Kate Rayworth makes and I think this is a very fundamental Step to to recognize the importance of open knowledge open technologies is that she makes the comments part of the economic model So we now work in a system that the state only recognizes The market and then they represent the citizen to deal with the market and I think if we know that there is a lot of power and structure within society and if you define this as a comments as as a potential Creation of value then you have to think about economics as a as a holistic part And so you have to make so the state has to define a strategy for the comments for comments production and Not just for the market So I think this model what she describes is very I think one of the things that we have to do is to use and create New applications for cities and for states to deal with this new model of economics So now back to technology Because what do you want from technology? Well, we want technology that's based on civic sovereignty We don't want to lose our sovereignty because we are using technologies and at the moment I think a lot of people believe it's not possible anymore if if you say use the internet They say well, then you have to give up your privacy just as if it's the same thing But we know it has to do with the business model. It has not to do with the technology itself It's the way the technology is being implemented So civic so several sovereignty within technology is one of the most important things that we have to Almost conquer back to to to to get back Another really important part is accountability What are in the black box? What are the technology actually doing? What are the algorithms that are inside? Come we should read they should be revealed They should be an authority that makes companies and organizations and governments accountable for what they actually do in their rules That they imply in the technology And then back to value proposition. I think we have to look into technologies that are based on reciprocity It's not taking more than you get from it, which is based on something is as a common creation So if you want this from technology What are what are actually the nation states are doing or what is Europe doing? Well, Europe we have been mentioned already before and if you talk about the policy Space that Phil Zimmerman said as the opening speech a lot of to-do has to do with how we define the policy space for technology I think at the moment Europe leads the way. I think they're most radical in what they ask from lawmakers and how we have to deal with technology both accountability of algorithms both and how to deal and respect privacy So let's say this is not maybe where we want to be it's only the first step, but it's definitely something that has some potential Then we look at the nation-state. Well in the Netherlands There's it would not really I think most of the nation states are not the level that you believe that could be the Change will come from maybe under pressure of Europe in our continent, but definitely not because of the political Movement inside of the nation states The Dutch parliament just signed a surveillance law from 2018 on the sleep meds and well most of you will know that this is not what we is the opposite of what we're talking about So maybe to see if you think about governments and that could play a role in reclaiming our Control over data, then maybe cities could have player interesting role And here I want to show some as examples from Barcelona and from Amsterdam and I think Barcelona is a very interesting space because there's a political movement that comes from the civil society and The they made very explicit the technology policy is Politics so they defined a policy that is really inclusive So this is the a quote from Francesca Brea who is the city of city of Barcelona She says cities are responsible for ensuring that data sovereignty is respected They should act as an intermediate intermediary and as a custodian of these new rights One way to go is by changing the regulations. Another way is through decentralized and encrypted infrastructure and Make citizens aware of how the data is used. I think these are interesting three layers are three steps that are in the capacity of cities is Regulations sometimes law mostly that we have to expect from nation states, but also implementing and really Steering the decent decentralized and encrypted infrastructures, but also a Role in making citizens smart not the city smart with a citizen smart and how they understand and use technology So Barcelona has been very explicit about the movement for city data comments Strategy that that brings together the transparency privacy security and and bases itself on ethical decisions And I think to make this explicit and that's I think that when I talk about the Amsterdam They're very close to this but really Barcelona is the most explicit city at the moment. They also called the part of the rebel cities And of course everybody would like them to stay in power But again, this is a very very specific situation in Spain at the moment in Madrid and Barcelona And we can we now see what is if a civil movement become becomes politicians How they can change the whole approach to technology. I think this is a very very interesting step they make So the city of Barcelona has a has a strategy, which is really Integrated so the digital empowerment and innovation is part of a transformation strategy It's not separated. It's it's Integrated whereas in most cities in most countries you have an economic departure Department, which is about innovation and then we have somewhere at the educational department that wants to have New skills for people and they will do a little bit about learning people to code This is not an integrated Strategy it's really about integrated integration if you think about civil society that we don't want to have people being Skills to code because they have a more access to jobs But we want to have code and programming skills and making skills in people because they want to become a real citizen To understand the technology that are surrounds them that that surround them City of Barcelona also made it very specific so they have a specific procurement process They have a strategy in and the code of practices and how they Deal with companies how to deal with their internal ICT structures They have a buying handbook, so they made it very very Actionable not just as a theory, but that's something that you really can do on the basis for daily basis making it part of the instruments of a citizen's of civil servants Well in the scene of Amsterdam, there are also some examples, but I think what what I like the most is that the term smart city is not being used as Positive anymore because I think the whole term smart city is being Complicated and the city understands it as well So this is there's a slight change in saying we thought about the smart city is about the maker city So the make is the new smart and I definitely like the term make better because it says something about them agency of the citizen instead of just a Structure that's outsmart you and you are like just the user So the whole terminology if the terminology changes you also have to come up with other policies and one of the snaps that is being made is to the to draft the Regulations for a responsible city so the term instead of smart is now responsible cities And of course we don't know which one of these terms will will stay But I think both of them. I definitely prefer Both the smart city So both cities and I think this is this is not just that they can apply what's already there because we also have to figure Out how we get control over a data. That's not an easy thing And I think has been demonstrated over the last day and to that There's so many things already happens that it's really quite complex So in the project decode Both cities are participating with a large group of developers and decode is about Decentralized citizens owned data ecosystem So it is about providing tools to put individuals in control and also to help them to decide and to control the data in the sense of they want to keep it private or they want to donate it to the data comments and The output for decoders. It's a four years program Will be that it's It will be an infrastructure that can be shared and will be open sourced for others validated in real-life situations There are really interesting partners in decode Fox works is involved Arduino is involved Dine.org next to the cities There is also Nesta and the Wagen some others I think this is an excellent consortium because it builds on already the experience of some very Interesting companies and organizations that already made some change So decode will facilitate several things It will facilitate participants to manage and access to that The to manage the access to their data by granting and revoke access to parts of it So it's it's very much in line with the idea of reveal my attributes that only The the the company needs to know that if you want to buy liquor Then it only has needs now that you're 18 plus and not the only the rest of what you what your data Body is about so it's about how how we can control what our Interactions with service providers what they know about you secondly it will It's facilitates that everyone to record entitlements on a distributed ledger whose integrity is resilient and very very viable Having this is also very important that it's an open structure that people can participate in also if you are a provider or a service partner It makes it possible that smart contracts can only access private data based on entitlements and matched attributes and The last step is that it's Positives operators to write these contracts sign them and get the authorization to run them in the decode ecosystem So Still the decode project is only what this tells right here you can see it's only in its inception phase It's a really in the early to early part of the project And this the language is still quite a thing because it's a platform is the ecosystem is operating system So this kind of language is still in the under development But what's I think very important for decode. It's not just a platform is technology It also it will be based on real-life situations We're just starting to work with the pilots in the coming half year. So these are some of the pilots that we're going to run First of all, it's DC them. It's a platform for citizens to Participate participate in in the citizens discussions It's already running for a long time. It's been used in Barcelona to engage with the citizens and Within decode it will look into participatory budgeting using verified Verified anonymity and I think this is the core idea of of decode that you have to attend You want to be authentic, but you don't want to reveal in all cases who you are So the whole model is that it's that you can participate in Widgeting but you don't have to reveal who you are, but you are a legitimate citizen of Barcelona The same principle We will look into an Airbnb register for a city of Amsterdam Maybe you are aware that in the city in in Amsterdam Like in Barcelona other cities. It's quite a problem Airbnb And the city said that there's a maximum of 16 60 days And they want to register that people are not exceeding that amount and I've really funny that Airbnb immediately said but that's really a Enfinishment of privacy. It's really funny that they use that argument but again, of course, of course, it's vulnerable if you just Register people by their name at their house and address and I think Airbnb said the people know that you're not at home But they the book the double the fees will get into your home system but this will be With decode you can verify the anonymous short stay rental register And actually the only two attributes that are relevant are do I do you really live in the house that you let and Did you didn't exceed the 60 days? This is the only thing what's really needed. So in this case Decode will work with the city of Amsterdam for a next phase of the register not the one that will be Implemented on the 1st of October, but the one that will follow A third pilot is working together with habits online. It's a social network for neighborhoods and In this case it will be it is it's a platform where a lot of neighborhoods are building their own Systems upon the platform and none of them of course have privacy enabled So I think problem at the moment for a lot of this nice social innovation Projects is that they don't have the they've limited knowledge and limited Budget to really build secure systems which makes them very vulnerable and Next door as the platform Which is trying to put themselves as the platform like the Airbnb is is really endangering the the the social innovation Projects that are already there. So decode will help meets online to define Privacy enhanced applications for their platform One of the the fourth Pilots will be with fair B&B a fair B&B is initiative from citizens and And some entrepreneurs that believe in a cooperation. So fair B&B is a cooperation It believes in and if people rent out their house that the money or the benefits are in the neighborhoods So that is not in Silicon Valley the benefits, but it's inside of the cities and the neighborhoods itself One of the very very difficult parts of Airbnb and others and ubers is that your Reputation is also managed somewhere central and you don't have access to the reputation management So within the pilot of fair B&B we will look into the portable reputation. So if you can get control back over your reputation So this is some of the ideas about how decode could work in different contexts Decode will be as I said something which is open and usable for others as well But we will first have to figure out how to to make it work in the in the infrastructure And what I think is very interesting. That's why I if we want to reclaim our identity reclaim our data Of course, it's about awareness. So if people know what's happening Then maybe they are more aware. Maybe they start to use signal instead of what's it? Maybe you're going to leave Facebook and start to use mastodon Which is still not as user-friendly as you would like it to be. So there are of course there are for some people There are for certain aspects of the internet There are some Alternatives that are and to anti-crypt it or you can so trust the networks and and applications But most of them they have to rely on infrastructure That's there I can and is trusted by default by design and As as we don't I don't believe that the nation states are the ones that will help us to implement this I think cities can be really of really help. So this is for example a way how Barcelona believes how decode in other parts of it could become an ecosystem that can be trusted and In in this context, I think it makes sense to to believe that cities could drive this movement As long as the citizens are smart enough to participate in the process So I want to end with the the technopolitics village that we have around the corner And I think what's really nice about this collaboration between the internet society and bits of freedom the Vag data active Bureau Janssen Janssen grip one contrast networks and all the others is that we all believe that technology is politics So it you have to have so it means that if you Start to believe to think about this strategy Then you have to engage with people that are non technologies and and I try to make them understand it still as Crypto as they think it is that they can have a role in defining the values that we want in our future technologies So thank you very much and Thank you Marlene. You surprised me actually bit by stopping already out. I was I was enjoying and thought go on go on Excellent So there's there's loads of time for Q&A here for you. So that's excellent. So who has The honor of the first question Thank you for this. Please close to the microphone You could you could if you can almost eat it. It's right. All right. No, right. I hear myself better now as well Thanks for this talk. I was wondering what is it that set cities apart from nation states in All this and how do city states such as Singapore which is also working very hard But also Centralistic and top-down on what would they still call a smart city? Yeah, how do they fit in this whole picture? Well, I absolutely agree that like Singapore is all almost a nation states So it's Singapore is the nation in a certain way and there are the cities that are I think it's about scale So every city that's too large Would not work it is about cities that have a certain that people still have Relationships that you can still organize a real discussion. I think Barcelona before this This isn't these new people that are there. It was a very hierarchical structured organized a city So I think I think that the whole idea about rebel cities is that they engage in a different way with the citizens They believe in a different politics So it's definitely to do with their the way that they think that politics should work and how democracy should work So I'm afraid that not all cities will will be in place to do this And are you talking about city-specific or Municipalities broader so could these also be more rural areas where maybe the surface of a municipality is much larger But the population density much lower I think I think the villages could be very interesting Structure, but they don't have a lot of people free for innovation They don't have a lot of budgets to participate in these experiments and building new infrastructures So if they would collaborate and be part of it. Yes, because of their the scale They could be very well positioned But they have a problem in that they don't are big enough to have a CTO who can run programs and participate and have a procurement process that's in place Okay, thank you And thank you Well, it aligns very much with the ideas of lady girl It's a German lady who analyzed the European Union and she Recognize that it should be the future of Europe should be a number of bigger city areas And that's you see already Rotterdam being rather Self-conscious you see Amsterdam being self-conscious you see that they are starting to cooperate with other cities So that is the new core of activity But I have one thing to add I've also recognized in Europe that there's a kind of new trade route Which are called Corridoria Which runs from middle of England to Rotterdam and then to the Ruhr area to to Bavaria and Then all the way is to to Istanbul and you can see from the other side that the Chinese are Building this infrastructure for for to connect very Large cities and to sell stuff. It's obor they call it So we can meet them Halfway in Europe. So also my invitation is think about the next step that we build chains of cities Because otherwise, yeah, do you have an optimum size? But what is the next step? Do you want the whole of Netherlands to be called Amsterdam? Well, maybe that's reasonable But I think if we believe in this if you think about this structure of trans locality Then we talk about cities and regions. So instead of just talking about cities. You can also talk about regions and yes, the people believe that the future of Europe should be a federation of cities and regions and the meetings in in in Brussels that are about the regionals meetings are actually Discussing this kind of topics at the moment So there is there is something happening there, but I guess the nation-states will not surrender just by Us liking the idea So there is a lot of tension between nation-states and regions and cities on in the European context Could you could you please phrase it as a question? No I'm the mayor of Corridoria and I You I am make the list of cities and if you really want you can Talk to me and maybe you can be on the list. Okay. Thanks. Thank you. Love to be on the list I have yet another question Because I've been wondering back in the days. I believe cities were Well more in charge of what was going on for example, they had all the energy companies and in the end They decided to sell it. I think an eco in the Netherlands Is an example of that and how would you prevent this happening again? Because I think it's really noble to rebuild all sorts of infrastructure for this century, but What what if the leadership changes and they they see it again as just Some some capital that they can sell at some point To make profits for whatever their agenda is Well, we come from a situation that everything which was cooperative has been Sold to to companies so every comments that we had both land water energy are being privatized and and are part of the financial system So what I if you look at energy and the energy transition you can go back and thinking about Establishing large cooperative Companies are you looking into the the cooperatives that are already Starting to to arise coming from citizens and again I think because of the distributed nature of technology and that we don't need a lot of centralized Models in the technology anymore. We don't need huge investment in factories because we have distributed factories this distributing manufacturing distributed energy System so I think we can think about other Governance structures, but it is not as this is changing the narrative So the current narrative is still believing in the market So if I say that we have to hack economy It's one of the most difficult things to do because this is not in line with how the startup thinking is I think all Europe wants to be Silicon Valley Paris just set up an incubator with thousands of people but Amazon is actually It's all based on the same idea that startups will make use of a lot of money because they will data monetize and They will be extractive economists So I think we the change of the narrative is not an easy step It's it and if you look at the for example at universities Students that want to have another curriculum They don't have a lot of say in universities. So if this is this is still a huge battle This is not but I just want to say that some people was in cities are actually opening up to the new discourse Okay, thanks Would you please go back into your slides a little bit? Could you stand close to the mic, please? Yeah, you're allowed to get the mic How far well a little further. Oh, actually Let's start all over again. Yeah, I Yeah, actually to the part with the donut economy first. I think that was in the beginning Yeah, here this one. Okay, so you'll notice that To the top right it says donut economics, which just makes me think it's about economics I look at the donut here and it it looks more like a government model where you attempt to constrict economic space to Outside of what she calls the social foundation Which includes things that are not currently in any social foundation anywhere Networks for example are totally private And then she mentions ecological sealing which is something that there is also no proper agreement upon So this is not about economics at all. I Feel like I mean if I don't see an economical argument here I Only see a model for how you would design your governance model Do you see a model here a real Do you think this has any proof? We're closer because we have wages interest and savings and these are clear flows of capital And you don't believe that there are planetary boundaries. I Would say that there probably are and we have just no idea where they are there. They're based on Ostrom, which is a Scientist I think is being part of also I agree generally with the United Nations board that Attempts to model the economic or the ecological foresight and I I do believe that after the Middle East migrant flow will ab down We will have a new migrant flow from Planetary boundaries not about market flow. Well, you just wait The earth will not become habitable and that will create new migrant flows It'll be either either you gonna be one so either you say that the planetary boundaries are a set of rules and a set of ideas about how our resources are limited and These are if economics is about household So if you don't have sugar anymore, you can't make Sweet pie, so you have to think about something else So if you don't think about the planet as a household, then the planetary boundaries are well defined Pies by scientists and by Economists as well. So the planetary boundaries are not just like a made-up idea I think what's much more made-up is our financial system, which is a totally fake story It's it's based on liabilities between people that have debt But is that real or is this just relationships of people that keep themselves keep keep each other in this in this cage? So I don't I don't understand what of one one part is economics and the other is not I think when you talk about economics, you're talking about the accounting of value And who's adding value and who's subtracting value and who deserves what and so what what I'm not looking at And anything related to financial flows. I'm looking at Houndries of Either a couple of slides because This was like part one of the the thing I wanted to say We go to the slides about Airbnb and fair bnb, please This one. Yeah. Well, maybe actually one one back is also fine Okay Okay, so fair bnb. I actually responded to one of the initial manifesto things as there is just no reasonableness to this whatsoever And it also has the implication that Airbnb is unfair Which is just I mean, okay The technologically I think I heard you discussing the whole story about the privacy earlier and I think you have a position that you don't believe in in things anymore and I know that nothing can be really optimized. I think there's nothing which is totally good There's no way that fair bnb will be totally fair like fairphone is not fair It's only attempt to get to be more fair I feel pretty sad that you were involved because I totally recommended someone not to buy it because it wouldn't really make a difference But um, no, but I I'm I'm wondering more about so you you talk first about how you'd use technology to Do like to be more political to have technology be more political But then you ran off went on this economic sidetrack, basically and You know the fair bnb is it's just criticizing air bnb for not being efficient even though it really is Could you phrase it as a final question, please? Oh, I'm not that good at questions I'm just not. Well, it's pretty simple. It's got a question to market you why would Technology enhancing politics and enhancing our ability to do politics and asking our ability to communicate and to agree and to make law And to enforce those laws. Why would it be so intricately connected? With your political opinions Okay, political opinions are something else, but I think if if anything technology is rule-based If anything politics is rule-based if anything economy is rule-based So behind underneath in every of these value systems, there are structures that are saying inclusive or exclusive exclusive so each of these are based on Rules and every rule-based system is bias by by default. It's not neutral so you have to define If you make technology or if you have a law you are not neutral so there is no neutral position here So therefore I see absolutely that technology politics Economics are all based on certain value systems that you have to be make explicit before you just say that it has to be like this So in the 21st model of economics is being presented as something that it has to be like this This is how economics works And I believe that more and more people are and also economists also within circular economy people are defining that economics could be something else Depending on your on your on your value system And my my argument is this technology could behave differently if you have another value system So it starts with your value system. It starts with who you want. What do you want to be? Do you want to monetize your do you believe in cooperation? Do you believe in competition? Do you think the the law of nature is that we have to compete with each other of do you do we believe that we survive Because we are cooperators that we only can live because we are cooperative cooperative together So this kind of so in the end you come back to what is your position in how you believe What is the nature of human beings? And I think most of our systems are now by based on competition and based on a very specific idea about how it should work And we I think we could start from another position, but then we have to recognize the strength of cooperation that we have to recognize the strength of Sharing in a reciprocity way that we have to believe in the way that people can cooperate and create value together But that means that you also have to change your idea about how economics works So now we're getting philosophical now for philosophy for philosophy you probably need or at least I need more More drinks and normally the person here says the herald says drink more water In this case drink more vodka might be better But I may I invite you to come over to the vah Village the cha village and to have to follow up on this discussion afterwards Cheers that would be great Now there's there's one more thing that I would like to ask tom because everyone has been harassing marlain all the time And and and that is fine. That's why she's on stage But I have this question your cto of vah society, right? May I invite you to the microphone? And she's marlain has been telling that barcelona has a cto as a city Now I have not heard of any dutch city which has a cto probably there are some but no they they don't Don't Pwn themselves as cto's or at last not in my memory What do you say about the position of a cto for a local government? How important is that to you? I think it's very important that Amsterdam does have a cto since how long four years five years He's not very public but his strategies and things and and the And the priorities that he that he defines in the city innovation policies They are they are influential. I mean they they I think and in this day and age I think every big organization whether they're public or private Should have a view and a vision about the technology that they're Using and making and building and for example zevolde the municipality here does zevolde need a cto in your opinion uh I think every single body needs somebody with a vision and a strategy around technology So yes, I think zevolde needs a cto if you want to call it a cto. Thank you Ladies and gentlemen, it's time for dinner And drinks Be it vodka or water. I've got one announcement make would you please pass me the paper? But first before I make that announcement Another big round of applause for marlene, please. Thank you