 Okay, so we're we're on today is Tuesday, November 8. This is the meeting of the disability access advisory committee. Beginning at around 1130 p.m. 1136 to be precise. And do we have any. Well, roll call. I guess I'm Myra Ross. We have want to state your names. If you're here. At the Angeles liaison. Marty Smith. And Elise link. We have. So we have currently three of our five members. We know that one of them has let us know that she's ill. And we are waiting for the. Dr. Nolan young has arrived. Okay. Welcome to Dr. Nolan young. Do we have any public. Here that because this is an. One second. No, we don't. Okay. All right, then we can move right to. Announcements. I will make one very quick one. I went to the district for meeting. Tracy. I'm sorry, I forgot my name. I don't know if you can see. Safian from the transportation advisory committee was there. And. Chad Fuller from the council on aging was there. And. The three of us have had some back and forth communications. About. Perhaps getting together and figuring out. we figured out we probably have street lighting, sidewalks, passable roads, accessibility of meetings in common. And we were possibly gonna get together to talk about some more. So it's sort of cool that there's a little bit of connection between some town boards that are in many ways working for the same thing with the same populations. So that's good. Anybody else have any announcements? Hearing none, we can move on to our guest today who is Dr. Pamela Nolan Young. Do you use both of your last names? I do use both of my last names and I wanna thank counselor D'Angeles for the PhD, but it's a JD, so you don't have to use a doctor. Okay, so we just say... I stand corrected. We just say attorney, Pamela. Or just Pia Bela is perfectly fine. Yeah. All right, so this is the Disability Access Advisory Committee and we're all about disability access and we like to be advisory. So I think we're a fun group but we're a small group today. We're missing one of our members who's Sarah and Darren and I don't know where she is. She's one that has not let us know where she is and Tori Dixon is ill. And so she's not able to be here. So there's only three of us unfortunately and we're supposed to be seven. So I guess the first thing I'll throw out before we even ask you to talk is we want you to help us and Patricia, Pat, we want you to both help us get two more members because we've been down one for 15 months and we've been down two for three months now. And so the 15 months one is starting to get old and I hope you can both help us get more members. All right, so we invited you here because when we heard that there was going to be a director of diversity, equity and inclusion we thought, this is very cool because we think we fit under your umbrella and we hope you think we do. And we would like to know how you envision your position maybe as it has anything to do with disability access. Well, I am really happy to be here and I definitely see this as something that relates to the work that we're going to be doing. I was given a list of questions. Would you like me to go through the list of questions or would you like me to just start with an introduction about who I am and what my background is as it relates to disability access? I guess I'd like to hear the general statement first. I don't know about the question. So I won't go into a lot into my background but I think it will be important for you all to know that I have worked with disability coordinators and with the ADA before in I believe three positions. So at one point in my career I was the 504 coordinator for North Shore Community College and worked with a disability director there, Susan Graham. And then as the DEI director role at Smith College worked with Laura Roucher who you may know is a national advocate for disability rights and the office of disability services at Smith College actually reported to me in my role at Smith. And then thirdly in my role at the University of Notre Dame worked very closely with the disabilities director there as well. So this is an area that I have some familiarity with and have really worked with students, faculty and staff to make sure that they got accommodations to work with. At Smith we did a comprehensive review of not only the buildings, but also of the curriculum and around accessibility with Laura and a few other members of the five college area. So I don't come without some knowledge although I would not label myself as an expert in the field and certainly I would agree that it is part of the broad charge of the DEI department. Wow, you have a lot of experience. That's great. Does anybody want to make any comments before Pamela gets to our questions? Just welcome. Questions. Thank you. No, that's great. You've been at a lot of different places too. You've been at a lot of different, no, but you have information about how a lot of different places do it. So, or don't do it, whatever. So, oh, this is great. Okay, so do you want to answer the questions so that we can have a general? Sure, sure, yeah. So the first question was concerning the Lake George trip that's coming up and whether transportation should be required to be ADA accessible. And I actually, as any good lawyer would have a question before I can answer your question, which is what role does this body have in sponsoring or the town in sponsoring the trip? Is it a trip that's co-sponsored by a town entity and an outside entity or completely sponsored by the town? Yeah, so I did, if I may, hi Pamela, this is Maureen Pollack from the planning department. So, just to give some background information. So the senior services director, Haley Bolton, attended the last meeting. I can't remember the particulars of why she was in attendance. Oh, because of the bus, they're getting a new bus for senior services and we asked her to come and talk about it. That bus is gonna be ADA, or a van rather, is gonna be ADA accessible. And that will be operational, hopefully starting in January. She then mentioned to help promote a trip to Lake George, which is being organized by the friends of the senior center, which is a nonprofit and so a question got brought up was, is the bus being provided that's going to Lake George, that's transporting seniors to Lake George and back, is that ADA accessible? And Haley had indicated that, unfortunately, the van company didn't have a accessible van in their fleet. And so there was sort of this question of like, oh, well, that's too bad, that the bus that goes to Lake George or this event should be ADA accessible to be inclusive. And then there were questions of whether that was legal or illegal. So I did reach out to our town attorney through KP law and it is included in, I included my correspondence with KP law in my last email to everyone. So you should have that. And so I provided the facts of this particular situation, which is, so it's again, it's a nonprofit that's organizing this event. And so the town is not organizing the event. So the town is not subject of providing a accessible bus. KP law did say that, the nonprofit and the bus company probably should provide a bus that is ADA accessible, but at the very minimum that they should have a, if a request upon an attendee comes about and someone needs to have an accommodation provided such as they would like to attend, they have a wheelchair, how would they get in that van? The friends of the Amherst Senior Center and the bus company should provide a reasonable accommodation for that. So those two entities would be responsible for that. So I think the event itself has already taken place. It was in October, moving forward. I then forwarded my correspondence with the senior service department. And moving forward, they will have a town owned accessible van. So if either the town themselves or the friends of the senior services plan a trip, they could use the town of Amherst accessible van in the future if they are organizing future events. But one of the members from the DAAC said wonderfully, there's the law and so all these entities are responsible to follow the law and that gets you so far. But if you dig a little deeper, are we being inclusive of, do we wanna make sure that, should that van from the get go, should have that been ADA accessible? Should the friends of the senior center actually reached out to a different bus company that provided an ADA accessible van or not? And if there isn't a reasonable accommodation, is that one person driving being driven by themselves or are they among their peers? And so there was this question of what is the value and what does inclusivity mean? So that was a touching point that the DAAC discussed last time and they would love to hear your comments on that. Okay, so hopefully I won't be in disagreement with KP law but I think if the event is a town-sponsored event, then there's a ADA mandate. So we would be required as a town to have. Yeah, it's not a town, it's not a town-sponsored event. Yeah, I understand that the past one wasn't but just an answer to the question, if it's town-sponsored then we have to provide accessibility. And I think that the point is well taken that if even though the event and this past event was not sponsored by the town, the better practice would be for the friends of this board or the friends of the senior center to seek out a bus company that can provide accessible transportation. I mean, that's always the goal, right? To have the event be as accessible and inclusive to everyone. And I think if there were a case where that was not a possibility then there would have to be further conversation about what a reasonable accommodation would look like. And I'm sure you all know it looks different for every different question that's raised. So it could be X in this instance and then Y in another one. So, but that would be my thinking that the town has an obligation and when the town is working with friends of the town that they would want to encourage that friend group to also provide accessible transportation. And then the third step would be if that's the case then the third step would be if that's not at all possible then to have a discussion about what a reasonable accommodation would be. So that would be my take on that. And I really, I'm going to answer these questions but please feel free to interrupt me and ask questions or ask for more details. I would love for this to be more of a conversation rather than just Q and A from this sheet. So the second question was does the DEI director know and understand ADA regulations? And so I would answer yes to that for the reasons that I articulated before that I've worked in three different positions where I've had to review ADA regulations and I did not add but I will, well, you know that I'm an attorney. So I am licensed to practice in Massachusetts and have been since 1988. So for quite a while and most of my legal practice all of it was really public sector for the most part with one short stent for a small law firm in North Hampton but most of it has been around labor and employment law. I also worked as a consultant for MCAD for a short while. So I feel pretty comfortable with Massachusetts laws in this area and also with the federal laws. And you were a five of us board coordinator too. Yes, right, exactly. Right. So the third one is, you know, am I an advocate for disability rights? And I think, you know, I mentioned earlier that I worked with Laura Router who's at Smith College and if I wasn't an advocate for disability rights before I worked with Laura, I was certainly one after what, but I would say that I've always been an advocate for disability rights. And I learned a lot from both Laura and from Susan Graham who was the DEA, the disability director at North Shore Community College. And I was able to put a lot of what I learned in practice for the benefit of the faculty, staff and students that we worked with. So obviously, you know, disability directors are generally the experts and looking at accommodations for students. But a lot of the information that we learned in that process we use for accommodations for faculty and staff. You know, an example would be that one of the individuals who worked in the departments that was, it wasn't facilities, but something that wasn't like an office setting at North Shore Community College had the responsibility of entering into data into a new system that the department used. And the individual just had a lot of difficulty like using the computer and understanding as his manager described, the person knew the job, 100%, one of the best employees, but, you know, working with the computer was not easy for this individual. And so we decided to provide an accommodation by using Dragon Naturally Speaking, which allowed the person to really, you know, convey the information that was in his head in a way that would work with the system. So I think the answer to that is also a yes. You know, the fourth thing down is that, you know, you don't want disabilities to be an afterthought. And so I'm going to ask you to make sure that you hold me accountable and make sure that I'm always keeping all of the many, many things on my plate, giving them equal time. And so that's not always an easy task because there are so many things that this department is responsible for. And I'll just say, in addition to working with all the town departments and managers, we're also tasked with working with three different boards. So the Human Rights Commission, the African Heritage Reparations Assembly, and the Community Safety and Social Justice Commission. And when I say we, I included in the work with me is Jen Moyston that many of you may know. Jen is the Assistant Director in the DEI department and we are really trying to work as partners because she has the in-depth knowledge of Amherst and has been a lifelong Amherst resident. And so I can't really envision myself doing the job well without her knowledge and expertise about the town. And so we are really working as a partnership. I will say that one of the things that we are, that's next in line for us to really roll out is a self-assessment tool for each of the departments. I just recently completed that and I'm waiting for the town manager to review and approve it so that we can roll it out, but included in that assessment, in addition to sort of asking about racial and gender demographics, we are also asking questions that are related to the ADA and accessibility. This first pass at the assessment tool is really like a broad brush. So I did not want it to be overwhelming. So we're only asking 15 questions and it covers a wide range of things that we have to ask, but there is a question about accessibility. And one of the things that we've targeted for the future is that, and I'm sure you're aware of this, under the federal law where we have targets for hiring, for employment practices, for individuals who identify as having a disability, we don't currently, meaning the town doesn't currently gather that information, but going forward, that's something that we will try to do a better job of gathering that information and having that available. So to see if we are making strides towards those targets. So there are, this is the one exception in the federal law, what people would say as quotas, right? Is that the federal government encourages employers to have targets for veterans and for individuals who identify as having a disability. And I'm sure you all know that the definition of having a disability is quite broad. So it's likely we are, you know, have reached our target quite easily, but in order to know that you have to really be gathering the information and asking the right questions. So that's on the to-do list of things. I'm sorry, just who the questionnaire is targeted? So the questionnaire, this initial questionnaire is going to go out to department managers. We're trying to get a snapshot of who's in each department, Brian. Okay. And mask, does the employee need to reveal their, their name and identity? No. So this question questionnaire, the demographic information is being provided through HR, through human resources. And it's where basically, as I said, broad brush, so it's just numbers. There's no individual names provided for managers. And as, you know, as you all probably know as well, you know, people have a right to disclose or not disclose. So, you know, some may disclose, some may not disclose. We don't currently have any information whatsoever on, on those two categories. So in the future, I think once the new HR director is on board, I would love to partner with her to ask her to do a general broad survey. And in my, I guess, yeah, actually in all of my prior employers have sent out broad employee surveys, asking people to reveal on a variety of different categories. And sometimes they do and sometimes they don't, but at least it gives you a baseline of information. Yeah. It's a, it's an interesting question about whether to disclose and you never know whether it is close or not. Or at what point in. Right. The goal of the survey. Well, the goal of the survey is to establish a benchmark for where the town is on a number of different DEI sort of parameters. So one of the things that we'd want to do is take a look at gender equity to look at racial equity. And as I said, the federal government has these two categories where they have, they have sort of goals for people to aspire to for veterans and for individuals with disabilities. So while this survey won't ask specifically for those two categories, because we don't have the data, the overall goal is to start to start, is to establish some benchmarking for the departments around DEI initiative. So we'll, we'll get confirmation of the data that we currently have on race and on gender. And then in the future, we'll add these other categories. And then we're also going to ask departments to talk, to look about, to think about their policies, the sort of programs they offer. So, you know, it's 15 questions. You know, and they are, they are very broad. Yep. Oh, you're there. Okay. Yeah, I'm here. Okay. In the middle of the word. Okay. I wasn't sure whether you disappeared or not. Okay. All right. Any questions or did that satisfy. The. The. That response was sufficient for you. Yeah. Okay. Great. That is Sarah and she came late. Yes. I would have. I was a. Oh, zoom. You know, I mean, I connected to zoom and it says. She, the leader is in another meeting. So I just kept on waiting. Then I. Shooted that email. And more. Gave me another connection. So. Oh, and I just wanted to let everyone know that. Tracy Zaffian is, is here as a member. Of the public. Public. Okay. All right. Okay. So the fifth. Question or statement is the DEI office could provide real educational component for the town regarding disability rights. Diversity, equity, inclusion. And that is certainly on one of the tasks that Jennifer and I will take on. So, and I think we'll. We will do that through professional development. Probably first for departments. But we have also said that we would be willing. To do our workshops for members of the community, other. Groups in town. So if there's an opportunity to have a speak on a specific topic, we would welcome that opportunity to do, to do so. Yeah. Yeah. Does anybody have anything to say right there to that? Cause I can think of some things. Yeah. No. I keep hearing at the last meeting, Elise said the most important thing I think. To me, which is we don't want to be an afterthought. And. I think. That if some of those trainings. Could include the notion of pre-planning. And thinking a little bit about what if you have people who. Don't fit in because, or don't feel like they fit in, or don't feel welcome because, or can't get in or can't participate if they do, or can't get there. That those are all important. Yeah. Getting there. Getting in. And being a part of something are really three. Different things. And they sort of all need to be there. And I don't know if anybody wants to throw in more about that than. What I thought, but it's always, well, let's plan this. Oh, wait a minute. Oh, we didn't do that. Well, that's too bad. Probably won't have any impact on anybody. Oh, well. And I think what came up at the last meeting for me. Was I sort of asked if the senior center programs. Which sound actually quite good. Yeah. Were going to be, it said they were all, you had to be present for all of them. And I think that in the era of zoom. The one good thing, and maybe there are more good things, but one good thing that came out of the pandemic. Is this use of zoom. And platforms that do Nate that make it much easier for more people to be there. And it's safe to be there. That's great. And they can get there. But if they don't. Have a way to get there, or they don't have time to get there, or they don't want to be there. And they still want to be able to participate. It would be great if there were options. And. Those seniors. Center programs. Did not seem to be headed in the inclusivity direction. No, that was not an interest that was voiced. Yeah, I also remember a comment made. In, when we were discussing this, that, or PVTA can be used. And then we have. Things you can talk to people when you have there. And we have both puzzles and game. Yeah. And you know, people. They think that people like us have lots of the whole day. And we have to be there. And just to be patient with them. And it's a great way to spend. Just for an hour long meeting, wait for the band to pick us early an hour, at least, and wait another additional hour for them to pick us. Take home. You know, so it's, I did not see the respect. That is all. With disability. So that was really very disappointing. I think from the director of senior services. So I am sorry that you had that experience and certainly Hailey would be one of the directors that we will be having conversations with. I don't want to make excuses. And I'm glad that you're you've brought that to me to my attention so I will make sure that that I'm aware of that and then I have that conversation and I will say that oftentimes, and I'm sure you have experienced this people assume that they have created a venue that is accessible in some way and then they find out that it has it's not that there's some piece that's missing. I had, you know, in, especially working on college campuses. We've had people schedule events in certain rooms, and it's listed as accessible and then we found out oh well yeah that room has a lift but no one knows how to operate it or where the key is right so it's not accessible so that will certainly be a part of the conversations that we have with all of our with all of our managers about programming and so thank you for bringing that to my attention and I will make sure that I convey your concerns, and that they will be included obviously as part of the training and workshops that we that we will do. Another thing that has always bothered me in my years of trying to be active in the community is the attitude is very important attitude attitude of people, and especially with the managers. So that should be really stress I always remember something that happened to me. I was attending a meeting in the medical school of UMass in Wooster. I was driven there and, and then I was on my own, and I was on the elevator, going to the upper level where the meeting was going to be held. And everybody in the elevator were asking each other, is she getting off here. Is she getting off here, they couldn't address to me because they thought I wouldn't understand, and I said no she's not. So it is very sensitive to the attitude. When I go to a hospital with somebody with a PCA with me, and they say, does she need help or does she, they don't address they're afraid to address people with disabilities. So maybe, maybe we should stress that when you talk with the managers that the attitude is very important. They have to get in their minds that we are no different than them, we just use another device for our mobility. Right. You know, or service dog, or, you know, or a cane, and so when I was an elected town meeting member, which I was for many years, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't have the town council government before three years ago, four years ago. So there was a, there was a select board and a town meeting that was sort of like a legislative body. And I was part of that and I was even member of the school committee for three terms. And when I would walk into the town meeting from the outside, and there were people out there leafleting. If I walked in with anybody. I would give the leaflet to the other person. Ask me if I wanted one. They would talk to the other person just like sarin said, yeah, sometimes is, do you need, you know, does she need, you know, there is, there is a lot of that. In fact, I recently read a book written by a blind person about how to access medical care as a blind person. And one of the things she says is, don't take a personal care attendant into the provider's office, because you want to make sure they're going to talk to you. You know, silly little things like that. There isn't, there's an invisibility that we have. And maybe it's discomfort. I don't know what it is. But we, it's the afterthought thing again. You know, we're invisible. They plan events and then, oh yeah well you can come and play with the puzzles. You can get here and, you know, well, bring it have your friends bring out bring you and just, just things like that, that make you feel second class, like a second class citizen. So if they pile on top of each other. And if you don't have the same level of strength that sarin has, and maybe that I have, and maybe that Elise has you, you can be put off, and, and just check out. Right. Yeah. Elise has raised her hand. Yeah, I echo a lot of what Myra said because I've had that done since I was a kid and even as an adult and they, they think you'd you know if you're disabled or for me because I'm legally blind they think I'm deaf and dumb too, you know, yeah. And the other thing I was thinking I was wondering if you're going to have these workshops. Are you going to have anybody with a disability come and speak, and any of them to do a little educating. I would welcome that. So are you volunteering. Yeah, I am volunteering because, you know, there's just a lot and the thing is, I can't expect somebody to know right away Oh, you know she's got a guide dog she's you know blind or whatever and she needs to. I often have to say can you like today at the polls I said, I'm, I'm legal you know I'm vision sight impaired or I'm legally blind or whatever. Could you give me a direction, meaning you know right left, don't just go, oh it's over that way. And that needs to be addressed, you know, just certain things besides the speaking for somebody else, you know speaking to somebody else. Yeah, I'm volunteering I would I would come and talk. If, if that were welcome and if that were needed. Yeah, well it's definitely welcome and I'm sure it's probably also definitely needed as well so thank you for that. Yeah, enough people, you know people really need to hear from us who are disabled. You know because they don't know what we need a lot of times and for them to hear it from us might be helpful. I think personal narratives are really helpful and in any situation when you're trying to have people have an understanding of some sort of difference. And so I would definitely welcome that thank you for volunteering. Thank you. So. So that was, that was actually sort of question number six. And so the, the, the last question was asking me about my roles and responsibilities. And what am I going to focus on which I addressed a little bit but I can go into a little bit more detail so I really see the department is having three large containers that we're focusing on. The first one is internal right working with all of the department managers and staff, and thinking about how the town operations work, whether they're inclusive, whether they're equitable whether there's accessibility and there's a lot of work to be done in that area looking internally, you know, so translation services has recently been added to one of the responsibilities of this department as an example so there's, there's a lot of work to be done with the internal focus. So the external for focus is, you know, the community engagement piece which is not only community members in Amherst but also the businesses so the Chamber of Commerce, the bid, the colleges and universities. Jen and I have met with our counterpart at Hampshire College and will be meeting with our counterpart at Amherst College tomorrow. Other organizations in town, the League of Women Voters has asked us to meet with them. The Amherst Women's, I think it's Women's Club has asked to meet. So that sort of community engagement piece is also a big part of our job. And the third piece is the one that is in my eyes, the most challenging and the most important. And, and I am thinking about this every day, examining everything I do and that is the racial healing and reconciliation and I think we would just say reconciliation for and healing for everyone. That is the, that's really what drew me to this job because there are not many communities who have decided that they want to take on that task of trying to be a more equitable and inclusive community. But it is also the most the most difficult aspect of the job and has been very challenging over the last few months so. And that's, that's, you know, what I signed up for and what really excites me about the position is the, is that aspect of the work and so just trying to work with Jen to create opportunities for that healing and reconciliation to happen. And thinking about different ways in which we can bring folks together around a number of different issues. So, so that's, that's the work in a nutshell. I would say it's a really big nut. And a hard one to crack. Definitely. Wow. Great. We're very lucky to have you this is. Oh, this is. No, this is great. I hope you don't get scared away. Well, if you haven't by now. There's still time. I have one a issue that I just want to bring up over the years I have been in the AC for many, many years. And I have experienced many times, we bring an issue that could be that should be addressed. We repeat it several times, and then it fades out. Either we forget and nothing is done about it. So I'd like to see a system develop where a valid argument is brought up to see what is being done there or they'll just say forget it. And we cannot do it for this reason or that reason. One of the things that's very fresh in my mind is an instance I witness when Amherst neighborhood was holding a service appreciation event. It was that name of that park in North Amherst. Mill River, Mill River, Mill River, and the event was organized on a platform. And during that event, an elder member of Amherst neighbors, she couldn't see that there was a lip on the platform and she felt, and there were several people. Including the town manager that was present there. And I broke this up in our next day AC meeting. And then the next meeting I reminded it again. And I don't see anything being done followed up about it. I mean, it could be very simple. Very sharp lines could be drawn, or some kind of a fence system or something that could be relatively inexpensive. So the town shouldn't wait for somebody to bring a legal case against them. You know so that is always something that always frustrates me, like if there is a question or a suggestion, it should be followed up. If I may, I would like to respond to that so yeah thank you sarin for bringing that up at the last meeting. I have, and since that meeting so someone fell off of the platform at the pavilion at the mill river recreation area. And so I spoke to the building commissioner and asked that he go out and take a look at at at the pavilion and he did. And he has a variety of issues with the pavilion. I would go beyond the lip and in that particular area that the person fell. So, I would suggest that the board make a recommendation to the town manager to address the ADA issues at the pavilion and to copy the immigration department director and have these fixed and perhaps close off the pavilion until they are corrected. That would be my recommendation. So you mean the board should write the board you mean this da C committee is that what you're doing. Okay. Okay I can't work with you Myra. Well, but that is an item on the agenda so we can either deal with that now or or later in the meeting. I guess my question is, do we have any questions or comments, additionally for for Pamela Nolan young or can she leave because she sounds like she has a lot to do. Does anybody want to make any comments. She's a keeper. Good to me. Thank you to work with her. Yes, whenever you need our sense. Thank you. And how do we, if we, if we ever have two cents. What's the best way for us to communicate with you. Email. So it's young P at Amherst m a dot gov. And, and I think, I think that the DEI website has been updated so you can find, find the department on the, on the town's website. And, you know, if you prefer, but prefer to leave a voice message, the telephone numbers there as well so I either of those will work and I will. I will ask Maureen to share your contact information with me I think I probably could track it down. So as we start to work on the workshops, I can reach out and secure advice and, and, and your input so thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you for coming. Thank you so candid. Thank you for being so good. Yeah, this, this, this could be a really good. A really good partners. With all the work you have to do. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you. Thank you. All right, have a great rest of the day. You too. Okay, so we need to write a letter. You could just perhaps make a motion to. Okay, I can make to send a letter to recommend the town manager. Let's see. Well, let's think about it. I would like to recommend the town manager to, to have all ADA matters addressed related to the Pavilion and the route connecting to the Pavilion corrected. So I think we should probably close the Pavilion until that happens. I'm not sure I wouldn't. I mean, these are just recommendations they will, they'll do. I don't know if it should be closed. Right. And he, what else did he see? Did he tell you, or does, did he just say there's more than that? He said there's a variety of issues with it. So you could say, you know, per the building commissioners. Yeah, evaluation of the Pavilion, there, there are numerous ADA matters at the Pavilion that need to be corrected and should, and should be corrected by the town. Marty, maybe someone else can better compose a motion. Maybe, maybe we should also refer to that incidence that happens, which, you know, you can't in emotion, you would refer to that in the letter you write. But we just need a motion that tells the committee to contact town manager and the building inspector to ask them to remedy the ADA. The violations. Yeah, violations. Yeah. To remedy the ADA violations at Mill River Pavilion or what do they say at and about the Pavilion? Is that what they say Marty? Yeah, just in the entire site. But I would also add to it that they should not allow any scheduled use of the property until it's corrected. Because you're not going to stop people from using it, but I would not allow people to schedule using the Pavilion and the park area until it's corrected. Does the town have liability? Absolutely. Okay, so they have liability every single time somebody walks on that property. Got it. Okay. So, I guess what we want to do is we need a motion that says that we urge the town manager to direct the to direct the appropriate parties to remedy the ADA violations at Mill River. Or near the Mill River Pavilion. And that they not schedule any events until those and those violations are remedied. Can you do something in that? Yes, that sounds good. And I can play with the exact wording and provide a copy to everyone before it gets brought out. And then we could include sort of the background information about the particular event that the resident unfortunately fell. Okay, so we need to, are you saying we should wait till the next meeting before we vote on this? No, I think. Up to you. No, we should do it now. We should do it now. Okay. So, I guess we need to vote on a motion that has, we don't know exactly what it says. Motion to write the letter to write the letter to the town manager. Yep. As well as the building inspector and I would also put the public works there. It's, I think that the Mill River recreation area is under the responsibility of the town manager's office and recreation director department. We add an extra because I'm afraid that they'll say, you didn't address it to the public work. So that's right. We could see, we could see, see that, but the public works director, if he is told to do it by the town manager might do it. But it's another, I remember another thing that he might do. I remember we had a discussion before, I don't know how many months ago that a whole, I mean the town manager told me when we both witnessed that incident that he said, I wonder if this was in the 504 plants, transition plants. And I said, I have no idea. Okay. Yeah, so that I don't know. Yeah, we need to look and see if they touched on the river. I don't know if they did. Yeah, I'll make a note to double check to see that. Is there any way we can see that 504 plan done for mill river recreation. Yep, yep, I can provide you a copy. Okay. I don't think it's a 504 I think it's an ADA plan. It's just a different thing. But anyway, okay, so motion. Essentially that we need the town to fix this. So we need to tell the town manager that that we urge him to take care of the ADA violations. That are, you know, surrounding that are, you know, pertinent to the ADA pertinent to the pavilion at mill river. And because we can't tell him everything because then he's going to say, well, the bath house is inaccessible and we're not talking about that. We're not talking about the bathroom in the area and that kind of a thing. Well, but we can't do everything. So what we're interested in is for him to remedy the violations around and on or around the pavilion at mill river, and that they should not schedule any events at that pavilion until the compliance with the regulations. Yes. All right, we are we seren seconded it. Yes. Does there any discussion. Nope. Okay. Want to vote. Yes. Okay, seren. Hi. Elise. Yes. Marty. Yes. And me. Yes. We have four of our five members present and it's unanimous. All right. Maureen, do you want to talk about the FY 23. Yeah, sure. So what is it the mass office on disabilities. They have a yearly grant cycle for ADA improvements. It's a grant for cities across Massachusetts. And so Air Merced has submitted a grant application. At the end of September for what is it is to make ADA improvements to the outdoor courtyard. Outside of the banks community center. So we, we talked about it at the last meeting. And so we have gone ahead and submitted that application and we should know probably by the end of December, whether where the town is awarded that grant or not. Okay, that's great. Do we know what we're using what we're proposing to the joint capital planning committee for the $50,000 that they have reserved for. ADA improvements. Did we ever. Do you have anything that came down the pipeline to you. Because if we didn't, we could suggest that they do that for Miller of. Yeah. Yeah, I. I will discuss that with staff. I'm not too sure about about if there's any particular projects that. The town wishes to use for that ADA. Improvement capital budget item. And whether the mill river. Rep department recreation area with with, if that would qualify for that. I'll certainly look into it. I mean, I don't care what money they use as long as. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. You know, but. Sometimes we make suggestions. So if you can find out. Then we can advocate for that with a joint capital planning. Group. Okay. So the other piece is about lights. Lighting street lights in the town. They're. Pat, I'm hopeful that you can. Tell us what the proposal is that came before the. Council. So that we know what we're talking about. Is it turning only turning lights off. Changing lights. And when are they going to decide. Is Pat there? Yes, I'm here. Okay. You're on your path. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay. I'm sorry. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to stop on the 21st. I'll do. Check that out. And get that information. I can send it to you by email. They're the proposal as far as I remember it. In some places it's to. Turn off lighting dim lighting and also to angle. Lighting down. And there are there. Some of the proposal initially and I haven't not seen the revised one. Had a certain time where some street lights would be turned off. Tracy may even have more information than I do. I'm not supporting this. I'm, you know, I'm interested in places where we might be able to angle light down, but that's that you still get a broad spec, you know, I don't think it's going to be a big change of light, but I think in terms of people's ability to see at night and be seen. Is really critical. And I don't see. From what I remember of the original proposal. That that really was looked at. So it is coming forward on the 21st, but I will get more information to all of you. I apologize. And I don't know if you want to pull if Tracy wants to raise more information or make our panelists. Yeah. She was, she, she sent some incredible. Information to the council. That I thought was extremely important. Put on there. Would you consider like making a motion to the council to divide. Angling down from turning off. I would certainly consider that. Let me go over exactly what's being proposed. And if, and I can do that. Cause that way something could be done. But not all of it. If it's done as one thing. It's, you know, you could, you. I mean, I could never vote. Yes. But if it's done piecemeal regarding. Which ones they have in mind to turn to angle down. Or can easily angle down versus the ones they want to turn off. I think it's two issues. Right. And for me, I will add. I mean, it's a, it's a. It's an expense to the town. To change the lighting. And I'm not sure that that's another aspect of it, which is less concerned in a certain kind of way. But I'm not sure I'm ready to have money use that way, given how tight our budget is. Marty has raised your hand. Yeah. Yeah. I. Just talking about, it's not a matter of angling the lights down. It's actually a matter of replacing the lights. And they replaced them with LEDs that are very, they're flat, long lights that really only give down like, so it doesn't bother the birds flying. And it does give a much better, even light. And yes, it's expensive, but in the long run, it saves money because it's an energy saving. And it's much better than turning off lights. Yeah. So our town doesn't have a lot of lights. That's right. You know, when you really look at it, the place you need lights are at intersections. And in the downtown area where there's people walking. But, you know, when you get outside of town, they're only at the intersections. Yeah. Marty, thank you for that information about the LEDs. Yeah, it's, it's, we should be changing all of our lights out to LEDs. The lights that are really the problem are the ones that are the globe lights that put a lot of light up into the sky. Yeah. And then so what you, and there's a term for it. Dark sky compliant lighting. Yes. Which is promoting that the light, light fixtures are downcast and shielded. So they're pointing downward and they're being shielded that they're not going other directions other than downward. They also reduce glare. So when you're, you know, when you're driving at night and you've got these bright lights. That you then make it impossible for you to see pedestrians. You've been in that situation where that happens and you can't see a pedestrian, even though there's a light right there. This happens at the university a lot. If you drive through the university, you'll find that there's spots where you can't see the pedestrian, even though it's lit. And this reduces that. Yeah. And you know, for the, those that are very interested in, in seeing good examples of dark sky compliant lighting, I recommend going to the Smith college campus. Where they have. Wonderful examples of what dark sky compliant lighting can look like. Tracy has your hand up. Yeah. Are you there, Tracy? Wait, where's Tracy? Is Tracy here? She disappeared. I think he's back in attendees. I'm not sure. Okay. Let's make her one more time. Yeah. There she is. She comes. Okay. Sorry. I was on my phone and then somehow it wouldn't let me unmute on my phone. So, um, so, um, okay. Okay. So with this street lights as Pat said, I did contact the council originally when that proposal came to the council in the summer. I'm one thing so that the street lights proposal was proposed by counselors, Hannah Key and Devon got there. Um, and had a big focus on dark skies, which I can appreciate, but I, they didn't reach out to anybody from tack or anything about some of the transportation safety implications. So, um, you know, I don't know if you've heard about that, but I've heard about facts like, you know, even though only say a quarter of driving is done at night, like 50% of fatalities tonight. I know. For myself, you know, even though I'm not that old yet, but I still don't see that well at night sometimes driving and that one of the things, and I did send, um, information to Maureen and I know she sent it to the committee, but I don't know if you've heard about that. Um, I don't know if you've heard about that. Um, Councilor Hanneke's map of where the street lights wouldn't no longer be. And things. And one of the things is that there were a number of neighborhoods that do not have that much street lighting right now. Including say, um, like orchard valley and echo hail and Amherst woods and things where the majority of the lights there. The street lights are at intersections, but I don't know if you've heard about that. Um, I don't know if you've heard about that. Um, and I'm somebody who walks a lot at night and I live pretty close to downtown. I live on Blue Hills road. And it is dark even in the center of town a lot. I mean, I ended up walking and I was at another meeting recently and people were talking about. How you end up walking in the street. Because the sidewalks, you know, are not always in great condition. Sometimes there's not great lighting on the sidewalk. You know, there's either not that many lights or there's a lot of trees blocking the lights and so on. And so really the safest place to walk. Is in the middle of. Is in the street, particularly like if the streets aren't that busy. Um, I'm a little surprised that it's coming back to the council. Uh, you know, maybe. I had heard something that maybe, um, the proponents of the proposal were perhaps going to suggest that it be put on holds. Um, but it was referred to TSO at that initial council meeting. And TSO to my knowledge has not taken it up yet at all. Um, the TSO has a very long agenda right now. I've talked about it. It's on the list, but I don't believe they've had any discussions about it because I've, I've been watching for those just in case they have them. Thank you. Um, and so my recollection of the council discussion was that the question was split a little bit between. Um, between redesigning current lights. You know, so that they have less, um, glare. They have less impact on. Nearby homes. Um, and things. And then also the larger question about where street lights go. But on the first issue, one thing I've noticed is that as ever source has put in some of the new big lay poles. Is that they've also, when, when that's happened, the street lights that are on those poles on the old poles have been moved over to the new poles in a lot of cases and been raised like farther away from the street. So as whereas, because those new poles are so much taller. That like, whereas maybe the street light used to be at say, like, you know, one and a half stories. It's now at like two stories. And so people who never had any experience with the glare before from street lights are feeling like it's coming like right into their windows. And that's been the case in some of my, some of the neighborhoods I walk in a lot. But so, I mean, there were a lot of questions. It seemed that the council, you know, there were concerns about, you know, particularly about where street lights should be, where they shouldn't be and so on, how many you should have or turn off and accessibility and things. So, I mean, I think, you know, the two questions are sort of, but I don't believe that the check has looked at. I mean, that the TSO has looked at either of them at this point yet. And that's why I'm saying I'll check and thank you for that Tracy. Yeah. And I will get back to the committee with an update. That's more specific. So I thought Mandy Joe yesterday in the meeting had said something about it coming up on the 21st. Oh, okay. It could be wrong. Yeah. I mean, I know that the TSO is meeting. This Thursday. And so it's possible it's on their agenda, but I hadn't seen it there yet. So thank you. Huh. Okay. So does this committee have any preliminary things that we want. To have communicated to the. Town council. I raise my hand. I know you can't see my. This was brought the lights. In Amherst Woods was brought up by a web group we have. And people were objecting to these lights and they should, they said that they shouldn't be there. And because the glare was keeping them awake at night. And it really was not needed. And I raised my concern. I said, listen, I'm not a person with a disability living on a cul-de-sac. And I have PCS coming at night to help me out. And or sometimes I have guests coming. And I really don't have any problem with those lights. Any people can get. The rapes that will block the shine into their bedrooms. If they saw desire. They're also in Amherst Woods, there are lots of bear sightings. And I said, it really provides some protection for the safety of people. These lights. So I have a feeling maybe they were also involved with this proposal that was brought up to the town council. Oh, they were, because that's Mandy Joe. She was. I mean, so one thing I was interested in. So James Lowenthal, who used to live in Amherst, and he now lives in North Hampton. He's a Smith college professor who focuses on astronomy. But he is one of the leaders of like a national dark skies group. And he was very involved with some of the street light policy changes that happened in North Hampton. And he, and he was in touch with me and advocating for why it's better to have like most of the lights turned off. But in addition, I was curious, and I haven't followed up with him yet, but I kept kind of waiting to see when this was going to be on the Amherst agenda. And then I was going to go ahead and do that work. But I was curious just about how it works in North Hampton, because on the North Hampton website, there are forums that residents can click on where it can say, you can request that a light be removed. You can request a light be added. You can request a light be shielded and so on. And so one of the things I took away from the council meeting is that. You know, when Mandy Joe Henneke, who has a large street light outside of her house, it's been problematic for her and our family. And, you know, when other people have complained and asked if there's anything that can be done with those lights. And I am sure that people are going to be doing that more so now with some of these ever source lights. And I think that they've been told by the town staff who went out to evaluate the situation and not who that who that is, that there was really nothing that could be done to shield the lights or anything. So I've just been curious about how it works in North Hampton. And if they're using different lighting technology and I'm not an expert in any of that. I'm sure James Lowenthal knows way more than me. So I wanted to reach out to him to see what they do and why North Hampton street lights are able to be retrofitted when the Amherst ones can't be. Right. But the thing is, you know, we have to realize that this is a safety issue, especially for people with disabilities. You know, why do we have lights in our homes? Because we're not like cats and dogs who can see at night without any lights. So we really need for protection and our safety. So if those are removed, you know, like if we were to take our dogs out for a walk or walk into our gardens to the street level or something, it just is not safe. So I think we should we really should stand firmly against doing this. But if there's other LED lights, which will be easier on people, it won't shine upwards. It will just show down. So that is just as safe. Yeah, I would like to add that, you know, so I briefly just mentioned about basic concepts of dark sky compliant lights, which is having the light fixture pointed downward and that it's shielded. There's other factors to be considered such as the intensity of that light source and then also the height of that like light fixture needs to be considered in figuring out what what is the appropriate light height. And the intensity of that light bulb, be it for a pedestrian walkway or or for a road, figuring out what is the purpose of that light. So I'm curious to learn what are the specifics of the person that has issues with with their street light. And wonder if the height of that light and the intensity of the light bulb could be adjusted. Seems to me like that the town council really can't. Take a responsible vote. On the 21st, there's way too much information that. We don't know. Yeah. I may be wrong about the date, but because I may have. Yeah. You know, miss a. Something else, but we have been talking about it. So. One thing that's different about North Hampton. Is that they don't have ever sourced. They have the other one. Which McCulloch. Natural grid. Yeah. Interesting. But, you know, another difference in North Hampton and also James Lowenthal has also advised Palom and some rural communities as even North Hampton does not have the large percentage of residents who do not have cars that we have an Amherst. We have a very large, like transit dependent walking dependent. Walking for transportation population that these other towns don't have. And so for him, you know, when he's writing me and he's saying, well, I advise Pelham and things like, I just don't think that Pelham and Amherst are comparable. And I had, like, I mean, I had particularly concerns, like in some of the neighborhoods where I know that there's a lot of dependency on walking and things. And one thing that the research shows, you know, transportation is that drivers often overestimate their ability to see pedestrians and bicyclists and things at night and the pedestrians often overestimate how visible they are. And as a driver, I mean, I've had a number of times where I'm driving along a road and all of a sudden there's a pedestrian on the side of the street or there's a bicyclist that I did not see until I'm very close to them because they are not lit at night. They may be wearing dark clothing. There is a law, I mean, James Lowenthal said, well, there's a law that bicyclists have to have lights when they bike at night, but many bikes, many bicyclists don't have that. And the Valley Bike Program, the lights are not very bright. And so, I mean, so it's just, you know, it's a visibility issue. I mean, people can't see as far at night and all kinds of things. So both to be seen and be seen as people here have said is essential to have some lights. So Pat, what do you, what do you need from this committee to, I don't think we need to write a letter. I mean, we're not ready to do that. But I think what do you need to have that you can tell the town council that there's a lot of concern about pedestrian safety from vehicles, from animals, from whatever, and that we don't have any objection with to, to creating appropriate lighting. But we do have an objection to turning off a lot of what we have. I can share that during committee reports, liaison reports, at the next meeting, which is the seven, the 14th, I'm sorry, we had an extra meeting. And I will clarify, you'll know by, you know, the end of the day today, whether I'm wrong about the 21st. And it sounds like I am. So that's probably just going to. Well, I mean, I hope you are that, you know, I do. You know, I mean, there are procedural things that allow things to get done when they're not ready to get done. And you know, all of those games. But I will share your concerns during my liaison report. Okay. Right. At the moment, I think that's really all we can do. I, you know, I mean, I don't know how other people feel, but I would agree with what Marty said that if it can be done, it should be done. But they shouldn't be turned off. They should be changed out. Agreed. Say one other thing. If the issue is that the power company is providing these lights, you can negotiate with the power company, which lights they provide, because they're only going to provide the cheapest ones. So I know that UMass does negotiate with the power company about what lights they put on campus. So the town can be more proactive about it. Yeah. Well, and one thing a neighbor told me is that. So when ever source, which, you know, put in the new pole, the street light had been taken off the old pole, but was sitting on the ground like next to the poles for a while and they had called DPW a number of times about it. And DPW family came and that they installed the new, the pole, the light on the new pole. So they were the ones that was not ever sourced. It was actually DPW who was doing the installing. And they're the ones who put the light farther from the ground. But I don't, I don't know any of the details of like who is responsible for it. Who isn't. I guess that's really how that is set. I mean, these are all kind of in the details. And so it is complicated business, but it would be great to find out a little more. So, I mean, I don't know, I don't know anything about the solutions. Who negotiates with the power company, what options are there? But in the end. We don't, we want them to work it out. So that the lights are. Changed out. And not. No way. And one thing I had asked to, when, when the street lights policy was being rewritten. It was actually over 20 years old at this point. I mean, so one thing is in terms of that technology, like Maureen was just talking about the tech is, I'd be hesitant to put a lot of tech details in a policy. If it's going to, if we're only going to update it every couple of decades. But two is that the current policy that's on the books for Amherst, it says that they. I forget exactly what the language is, but it's something about how we do not like provide, you know, how we do not like provide, you know, how we do not like provide, you know, how we do not like providing in residential neighborhoods, or we do not provide lifetime nighting for pedestrian purposes or things like that. Which, you know, when I looked at best practices in terms of other towns policies, like I think I don't necessarily agree with that as a goal or as a statement that we want to have in our street lights policy. If Amherst wants to be age friendly. I think that maybe that language should be revisited. And I was disappointed to see it there in the first place. Okay. So our time is pretty much up. Before we dismiss the meeting, I have one other question. What is the membership situation? Yeah, we sort of brought it up at the beginning. Yeah. What is it? Yeah. I can, I can again, ask the town manager's office to give, give an update and to, to move forward with filling the two vacant seats. It's, it's, that's, that's all I can do. It's, it's not my role to fill those vacant seats. You know, we've asked before we've written to the manager. It's getting a little frustrating. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know the situation that I sent to Lynn Grisimer. About. The manager. I said that. He, you know, that he, that he just hasn't appointed. Yeah. There may not be people who have applied. They have. They can tell you something about that. The executive director. I mean. The retired executive director of Staros. He's a manager. And he has had a lot of people with disabilities after working there for 30 some years. He submitted an application. And the Tom manager is aware of that. He told me personally that he Jim. It's his name. He gave me as reference. And I said, all I can say is go for it. Because not only he's experienced himself. Oh, this was like two months ago at that Mild River event. I was the act. And there was Pat, there was a woman who applied the last time we filled the vacancy who seemed like she would be very good and she wasn't chosen. But it was, we've been, we've had an opening for 15 months. Yeah. That person could have been tapped pretty easily at that point, it hadn't been that long. I don't know if she's interested or if she's moved on, I don't know. But I feel like this has not been handled expeditiously at all. So perhaps Pat could mention it and I'll be back. Bring that up, yeah. So we have two raised hands and then we need to. Okay, then we're done. Then we have Marty. Yeah, I just wanted to bring up, have we had any report back from the DPW about the non-functioning in the intersection lights and audible signals because they just rebuilt the one at South Pleasant in East Hadley. And I don't, I have not tried it, but I'd like to know if it works. They just rebuilt that intersection. Say the intersection one more time. East, a South Pleasant Street and East Hadley. Okay. They just rebuilt it, put in new curb cuts. I've been watching them do it for the last couple of months. And if they didn't fix those crosswalk signals, I would be really disappointed. I'll look into it. They have made some, there is a little bit of audibility on the Triangle Street one, but on Main Street. It's not loud enough. Marty, could you send me any of the streets that you're concerned with? Cause I've brought that up even directly to Guilford Mooring and he keeps saying, oh, they work, they work. No, they don't. Oh no, I have a spreadsheet. I have a spreadsheet. Resend that to me. And we found out from Tracy a couple of weeks, a couple of meetings ago, that this has been a long standing project and that they've done that survey that I did. A couple of years ago and nothing's been done. Marty did it in July of 21. Yes, one Saturday and took notes and made a spreadsheet which we immediately sent to the manager and to Guilford. And they have done something. I don't know if what they've done, it would be nice if he said, I'm working on this one. Can you let me know if it's audible? Can you let me know if blah, blah, blah? I mean, but we've heard nothing. He communicates. Well, Marty, if you could resend to me and then Tracy, maybe you and I can talk also after I'll set up a time with you via email that maybe we can get together. So we can get this going again. Marty, can you resend it or I can find it, Marty? You want to send it, Marty? Yeah, sure. That'd be great. Okay, thank you. And I will just say that the planning department did request and receive funds to assess the audible signals, have an expert come in and evaluate it and to fix it. So, well, that was approved for this fiscal year. So that's another step forward. This fiscal year is in its fifth month and the winter months aren't all that great for making repairs. So this fiscal year is for all intents and purposes more than a third over. And we want to know what they did. And I mean, we need to have information sent to us about what they did. Okay, who had the other hand up? Elise? I did. I have to go now though. It's one and I have an appointment. So it wasn't that important. So basically what I was just saying is the light thing is also a safety thing. I don't want some creep following me home in the dark on North Pleasant Street. So that's just my two cents. So I don't want them turned off. All right, so the next meeting, now thank you Elise for saying that. The next meeting is Tuesday, December the 13th. And I think I just sent everyone a meeting invite, so. 13th and we're going to have somebody from the relay system come and talk to us about this. Yeah, and maybe we could talk about sidewalks and snow. I've been talking to Walk Boston. So we're trying to make some progress. Okay. All right, thank you. Thanks. Adjorn? Right, thank you. Adjorn, thanks.