 I suggest that we start with this, ladies and gentlemen, good friends, it's a pleasure for me to welcome you in this second event in the Open Education Week 2018, organized by Eden, the European, this is an e-learning network. The topic of the webinar today is Challenges for Quality of Open Educational Resources. My name is Wim van Pategen, I work at University of Leuven and I'm Vice President of Eden and it's a pleasure for me to guide you through this webinar. We have five more people involved in the webinar. I'm happy to introduce Ayurina Follon-Golpicciena from the Votatus Magnus University, she is our president. I'm also happy to introduce Martin Weller, who is the Academic Director for the Learning Design Project and Director of the OER Hub at the Institution of Educational Technology at the Open University in the UK. Next is Ulf Daniel Eilers, who is working at the Baden-Wurtenberg Cooperative State University, Kalsruhe, well known in the field, I think. The fourth one is Gart Stettelstadt, who is Secretary General of ICDE. I have to apologize, Svetlana Knyatseva, who is from the UNESCO Institute for Information Technologies and Education. She would have loved to be here with us, but she got ill just yesterday and she apologizes, her voice is gone and so she could not contribute to the webinar, but I'm sure that she will manage to see the recorded version of the webinar. And last but not least, Eba Ossian Ilsen, who is with the Swedish Association for Distance Education and also an Eden Executive Committee member. Together we prepared this seminar around the following questions. When talking about challenges for quality of open educational resources, we thought that the first question could be to think about what are the factors that have an impact on the quality of open educational resources and open education in general. So we will start off the webinar with this question and we will dwell around the idea of how do we then measure quality. If we know the factors, how can we then find evidence of quality for open educational resources? The third question is then the more challenging one, how can we improve quality of open educational resources and what are then the measures that could be taken by stakeholders involved, teachers, institutions, the community in general, maybe the European community. The fourth question was then, okay, if we have that quality, go for some sort of accreditation of formal recognition and education like we have the likes as we know it in so many social media nowadays. How do we organize this kind of and last but not least, my favorite question. It's not just us that need to think about quality and open educational resources and what about students? How can we involve the learners in the quality debate? We will go through all these questions in the webinar. Each time there is two of us that will introduce their viewpoints and first thoughts, initial ideas and then I open the floor for the other panelists to introduce their viewpoints as well. Participants can ask questions in the chat box. If everything is okay, you should see the chat box and you can ask questions in general or particularly related to one of these questions. When it is related to the questions, I take them right away into discussion. If they are of a more general nature, I take the freedom to postpone them until the end of the webinar where we will have a last round of discussion with all the panelists. I think that's enough as an introduction. We have about one hour and a half for this webinar and I don't want to lose time because I think these questions will spark a lot of discussion and I'm looking forward. So let's start with the first question. I repeat it here. So talking about quality of open educational resources and open education in general, what are the factors that we could recognize, distinguish that have an impact on the quality of open educational resources? Can I first ask Eba to give her viewpoint on this question? Yes, thank you very much, Wim, and thanks for the introduction and hello to everyone at the webinar. Yes, I would like to start with sustainability development goals from UNESCO because I think those words which are written here on the slide really have an impact and will have an impact for the development and the use of OVR or open educational practices and culture as well. So the questions are about equity, equality, access, inclusiveness, diversity, education for all, sustainability, and lifelong learning. I also would like to say that I listened to the president of Commonwealth of Learning yesterday at her speech for the Open Educational Week and the introduction from Commonwealth of Learning and she also said that those honoured words are maybe the most important ones for everyone here involved in the movement for open educational resources and how we deal with those words. Can I have an extra slide please? I also think talking about quality, there is a very good framework, the tips framework for quality for open educational resources. I think many of you are familiar with it and it has been developed by Paul Karachi and how we deal with those four issues about teaching and learning processes, information and material content, presentation, product and format, and the system technical and technology are very important and will stimulate the development of the cultural quality for open educational resources, how they are used, reused, how we share them, how they are adapted, etc. And then this framework will also generally improve teaching and learning and the use of open educational resources. Can I have the next one please? Maybe I can change it myself. I also will stress that there are different levels. We used to talk about micro level, master level and micro level. It is of course about the resources as such and the materials as such. Maybe that are more about micro level but it's also very much about the master level, how institutions, how faculties, how teachers, etc. are dealing with open educational resources and the incentives for using open educational resources. And of course the students view as well, which is very important which we will discuss a bit more later on. And then of course the macro level, how are organizations, universities, the national organization but also globally are dealing with open educational resources. And here again I think it reflects very well how we deal with them and how we adapt and transform the SDG goals for education. So other questions which I think is very important for the framework is about the learners as collaborators because they are using open educational resources to a very high extent, maybe more than we know about or think about. And the seed learners more as collaborators or consumers. We also know that the infrastructure support is very important. Again about incentives, having OERs to support at your institution, etc. and the cultural sharing which is very much about attitudes and values and how to cultivate a cultural sharing. It is very much about sustainability, transformation and not at least about the policy costs and all those factors have a great impact for quality. So I think I will stop there and hand over to Martin and then we can discuss later on. Thank you. Thank you, Eva. Thank you, it's your turn. Okay, thanks Eva. Thanks Vim. Can everyone hear me okay? I don't have slides so I'm just going to ramble incoherently for a bit. I think this is a very academic thing to do but it depends what you mean by quality. And David Wiley often makes the point that when we talk about quality what we often mean is production quality, glossiness which is very different from education quality. So what we mean by quality will differ depending on context. Having said that, I think nice production quality does help actually. I've been working with open textbooks in the UK and we've been working alongside open stacks and it's been able to take along a really good, high quality open textbook. There are astronomy books, excellent, lots of nice glossy pictures to show people say this is an open textbook. They immediately go oh okay, they're good quality then and so that kind of does matter I think. But having said that, you don't always want high production quality. It depends what your purpose is. So we run the Open Learn OER repository at the OU and one of our findings was that people rarely adapted our material, you know it's kind of CC license, you can take it and adapt it. But actually because it's kind of very high quality they it's almost perceived as all as broadcast like that's good enough we'll just take it and use it. Whereas I think if you want people to do things and to produce their own resources or adapt your stuff, sometimes lower quality gives a different message. So I used to talk about big and little OER and I think sort of fairly cheap things that are made, you know, electro-talking to the webcam is a bit boring but you can do it then and other people think well I can do that as well so it depends what you want. If your aim is participation then high quality can be off-putting. So I think just bear in mind quality varies and what its purpose varies. So I think some factors I think ever covered these quite well. I think funding does help, you know, we shouldn't expect this stuff to be done on part-time or on a periphery if you think it's important then you need to fund it wherever that comes. I work at the Open University and we've had for years a course team approach which is very kind of labor-intensive and could be quite brutal at times. You produce what you think is a perfect draft of a course material and then you send it to your colleagues who just rip it apart. But I think the end product to that process is that you get good high quality materials. So I think the review, collaboration and input from different voices helps improve quality. I think having a specific need is really good. So in terms of quality if you need something that teaches you calculus tonight because you've got a test tomorrow then if it does that then it's good enough quality so sometimes it wouldn't depend on your need. Ease of use and adaptation I think is important if what we want is people to take it and modify it. So I think particularly we've seen that with some of the stuff around open textbooks. It's a really interesting idea to get students to start modifying those textbooks that changes their relationship to resources. I think perception is important so we've done projects with lots of educators and why they don't adopt OER and often they're worried about the perception that if they're using someone else's material it makes them look as though they don't know what they're talking about and they've kind of fought hard for this status and status is important. So I think allowing people to use OER and it not seen as undermining their position is important and having students also sometimes we use OER and course materials and students say well I've paid you money to study in the UK. Why are you giving me stuff I could get for free elsewhere so I think how we use it is important how it's perceived and as ever said I think evidence of impact is important as well. If you want people to adopt OER then being able to point to some vigorous evidence that says this had good impact over here it's improved student retention, save money or improve student performance those kind of things really really matter that's what we've been doing with the OER hub quite a bit. So I'll stop there. Okay thank you Martin as well for these introductory thoughts. I'm now going to ask the other panelists to give their reaction on these first ideas. Gart can I start with you? Have you to add something or to question something or to challenge something that you just heard from Eba or Martin? Well just an observation and that is I think that open education resources is the child's manifestation of education, democratization of education and when you have a new child either in the class or at work you know the expectations very very much among those that are going to relate to that. I think money has regarded open education resources as the kind of ugly juggling. Have you read the fairy tale from H.T. Anders you know about the ugly juggling that everyone bullied because it was so ugly but at the end of the day it was child of a swan. So when the ugly juggling grew up it became a swan and everyone admired it. I think it's a bit the same with open education resources. It will take time or it to demonstrate its one capacity. So that is my observation that we can set up the number of you know criteria etc but still the complexity of learning materials and learning itself will require time and patience to understand what the quality of the OER or an offer. I stopped there. It's just a reflection. You put the OER into kind of historical context. Okay thank you Garth. I like the... Ulf you want to add something here? Hello to everyone from my side as well. I agree to what has been said. Yes I agree to what has been said. I would still I would like to add one thing or two things that is we have done a lot of work on this issue of open educational resources and quality and we came to the conclusion that what we actually would like to talk about when we talk about quality of OER is the quality of the educational process. And so we were starting to think if it is not more useful actually when we talk about quality of open educational resources to extend the perspective a little bit and to talk about quality of open education or open educational practices. So all the practices which educators, teachers, professionals are actually employing to bring open educational resources into an educational experiences. And we felt and I feel very strongly that the quality actually is in this interplay between the resources and the educational idea and the student and the lecturer's role in that. And so that that's my strongest feeling for this point actually. And the second smaller point is that I always like to... it's also a little bit academic maybe but that's what I am an educational scientist. So I always feel that quality actually is in itself. It is a relational term. It is a term talking about an in-between. It's not a term talking about a result or an end or one pole of the equation. It's a term which is talking... it's targeting the in-between. It's the relation which we are talking about. So if the quality is in the relation we actually always have to take into account all the ends which are parts of this relation. So the student and the resource or the student, the teacher and the resource. And the quality is then let's phrase it like that the negotiation result of what they all bring to the educational experience so to speak from a more let's say philosophical point of view. So these two points I find important in this question and maybe I'd like to add to what has been said. Thank you Ulf. Very interesting points and I'm sure that we will address them later also in the discussion. Adina can I invite you to conclude maybe. Thank you Wayne. I think some very important elements have been mentioned here already so far that actually we have insight all the time when we start thinking about open educational resources. Why they suddenly become open? Why do we need them open? What we expect from them? Are we satisfied with production and resources? Are we satisfied with the way we use resources? And are we satisfied with the way how we may be involved in the production of the resources in the editing of the resources and in using them in educational setting? And the best probably is this differentiation and different experience of how a low quality perception provokes the improvement of the development of the resource, of the development of practices and education in general. So I think the impact items that are now broadcasted in the slides are very correct ones. But if I had to emphasize I would also emphasize the ones that Martin mentioned is actually collaboration and different input how all of us contribute to OER development and what impact we reach with all of us teachers, students, academics. So I think we continue on that. I don't see any questions in the chat box from the participants. I can invite you again if you have immediate questions related to the discussion or to the viewpoints raised here in your questions or challenges in the chat box and we will try to address them as soon as possible. But let's move on to the second question we prepared for this panel. The second question was okay now we have heard a little bit about the different educational resources and what is there at stake. How do we then measure the quality of open educational resources? Is it necessary to measure the quality and where do we then find or how can we find evidence that there is quality in open education? And I invite Garth to open the floor to answer this question. Yes going back to this idea that open education resources were born from huge multiplication or higher education and the idea is also born from democratization of knowledge. So we have a mother and a father and then the question is when this race and come alive along in the educational learning system what happens? Well at a certain point the existing rulers that want to keep things as they are they will strike back. So a good sign of quality is that OERs are massively affected by for example publishers that want to protect their domain. So that is the classic conflict between the new and the old and the new ones for massification and democratization. One replay at least to some degree the existing rulers. So when that conflict happens that is at least some kind of evidence of quality because if the OERs were not of quality, was easy to show they were poor why should you strike back? That will only increase the conflict unnecessary. So in that situation if people have low quality I think there will be no massive attack on the OER. So that is at least my first reflection. The next thing is that with the internet came a number of questions. 20 years I participated in an OECD conference on e-commerce and the big issue was that one search the internet at that time for those that offered eternal life eternal life and already then it was millions of offers for eternal life on the internet. You only had to have some money to buy it right? So that of course elevates the threshold for consumers to learn and others to accept that something has quality. So we are into new dilemma with the digitalization and the digitalization also post a new dilemma and that is if you compare benchmark as any normal citizen do when you buy something or use something whatever it's a car or OER you compare. So I think the OERs are a vote they're up against trip advisor, good read, you know so it is a kind of open debate about quality which has not yet occurred that much when it comes to OER. So there are some challenges there. This said I just want to conclude this reflection that when I present the OER what is OER? I say it is learning material. What is the difference between learning materials and OER? Nothing. What is the difference when it comes to quality? Nothing. So the only difference is in what the license says. For example like the 5R as Willi said. So basically I think that quality OER it is the same as quality learning materials in general. So there is no basic difference in my view. Thank you. Already one question to this issue but we will come back to these questions after I give the floor to Ulf to give his point of view. Yeah thank you very much Wim and I would like to think a little bit about this issue of learning and education. And long before actually open educational resources have surfaced and seen the light have been born like that what would say there was already in education science a discussion around the issue what is good learning material what is good learning design actually and it's always the same it's always the same we always try by using learning design back then the big word was instructional design for web based trainings for e-learning and so on nowadays we call it learning design or didactics pedagogy we always try to raise the probability of having impact so when we talk about quality actually we talk about a concept an approach which tries to describe a bundle of activities philosophies methods processes which is trying to raise the probability of having impact so that's that's the ultimate goal of quality when we talk about quality and impact can be various things of course for the learner it can be that a transformational process is happening that's what we usually aim at when we think about education we don't you know think about quality in a way that the ultimate goal of quality is faultlessness or perfection in education we think that the ultimate goal of quality actually is transformation the competence the abilities the skills of the learners should develop the learner as a person should transform him or herself so and when you think about this issue and this aspect of quality for education and then turn to open educational resources the question would be how can open educational resources contribute to achieve this aim of such a transformational quality education understanding and then turning back again to educational science research results there there are these you know these these paradoxes that we know from research that if you have a high structured learner so a learner who's very autonomous who's self organized who's very conscious who's very reflected if you have a high structured learner this kind of learners this kind of student can learn with anything you give them with anything you don't need to think about quality in this in this case of a certain quality you don't need to think about a certain pedagogy these learners they will find their way they will learn always they will achieve they are the achievers but if you have a low structured learner learners who are beginning learners who are starting learners who need help learners who need guidance then you need to think about what is the right concept the right approach to guide them and now again turning to open educational resources if you throw open educational resources into a classroom regardless the quality of the open educational resource high structured learners will take these resources and will make sense of them they will try to follow their route they will try to develop if you have low structured learners it's not going to work and that's the typical paradox which we have in quality the best resource with the wrong target group is leading to terrible results and the worst resource whatever that is you know the worst resource with a target group who is very very learning able learning competent will lead to a result which might be even very good so that's the paradox of quality that's why I always like to think about the entire education process I think that for this exact question how do we measure quality we can say that for education and for educational management we have a whole lot of methods processes philosophies developed standards certification schemes criteria which are out there but still we always need to think about the target group in the end of the day and the evidence is in the transformation process let me come to the end I think that that what is important is that we have an we have an old world in the old world we tried to think about standards we tried to think about achieving a certain resource quality a certain quality of an educational concept and then applying this concept or the resource and then thinking okay this is going to lead in average to good educational processes and good results the new world of quality development will look much more into community orientation much more into peer orientation learners are helping them to scaffold their learning between them and teachers will much less play the role of providing a material for a certain standard so the new world is a world of social processes of community oriented quality reflections whereas the old world is more on thinking about the standard for the average target group the new world will think about how to provide community oriented environments in which open resources play one role to facilitate learning but the social networks are playing another role to facilitate and validate learning so these are my takes on on this question thank you a lot of questions in the chat box but if I heard Ulf telling their viewpoint I think many of the questions already got at least part of an answer there was a question about who needs to do the measurement let's say of quality and there was Ulf already saying that it should be like the community the peers that are involved in the social aspect in the process I think that another question was the quality either of resources either of the educational process and I think that this has also been addressed both by Gart and it was a question about the tools and standards and benchmarks I think that also was addressed but maybe I missed some points and I would tool question so what are the best tools to develop quality the last quality standard I have developed is called open ECB check and it's a so-called open quality framework that means there is a list of 35 quality criteria but the aim essentially in the end under the line is that every faculty school organization teacher is taking this list and is starting a reflection process by himself or herself or with the colleagues or within the community to think about which of these 35 quality criteria is for us for our context for our target group for our stakeholders for our funding schemes for our aims our educational sector which is the correct one in the end of the day always taking into account the social aspects of the learners and the people who are around this educational setting there and I think that's important for the future we have to think in this open frameworks and not in the international standards which are actually misleading a little bit because they are can only target the average in the end of the day and education is not about the average it's about the transformation of the individual I just wanted to have a quick round actually your inputs raised a lot of thoughts and especially with the understanding of the quality and understanding of the quality of Oya and I have a lot of questions myself and even think now you know that when we speak about the involvement of community and I think what you will mention actually is transformation of the individual but also the community within an organization and and the region there are rules that are introduced for different purposes for different aims for different systems and critical thinking I guess also is very important factor in which way to go in which direction to be accompanied so it is a tremendous shift within the organization a tremendous shift in academia I know yesterday we had a very very good discussion on open universities they are unique today when we speak about Oya I don't think we emphasize one or another level of education or one or another type of university we think how Oya may be useful for all of us and how we may recheck where we are and what are our values and whether our decisions have been made on proper elements and segments in the process it's not the question actually I don't know if you get what I mean but I think it's very important and I see it now so broad that it's very difficult actually to make it more concrete for sure a complex question and there is still more questions actually than there is answers yet but with the help of the community we will probably be able to address some of them at least I quickly go to the input from the garden and all yes of course I agree very much what has been said but I would maybe like to add first of all the question how do we measure quality it's a bit problematic because measure maybe it's not the right word here and also often when we are thinking about measure and measurements we are quite often falling in this you know old traditional way of measurements and the measurements special on quality in this case so quality is very much about the quality in the eyes of the beholder for the for which person for which what purpose and in what which context so it is very depending on about the person's purposes and context so that's one reason why it's so difficult I would mention and I think it was also here in the chat about benchmarking I think benchmarking is very very good way of at least discussing quality because then you are evaluating yourself in your own context and the purpose and the target group so peer review and the community which has been mentioned so that is something and then there's another thing and that is about where is the evidence I think the evidence are by the learners by the people because they have the power what they are using and how they are using it and why and what it means for them I sometimes can see parallels for example you know with booking.com or trip advice or this kind of thing when you build some kind of community where you trust people and people have given their their value of something that has also been discussed for open education resources some year ago there was a conference about where are open batches and where should be should be I think there was an EU project about it if that should be connected with some kind of no batches for different kind of purposes but I don't really believe in that idea either because it changed very much it is like we are shooting on a moving target because I think so the meaning of where are is that they are developing all the time especially when we have to adapt them we use them we maybe translate them we we have them in other contexts and these kind of things so the purpose of where are is that it is moving so that's why I think it's more and more better to talk about what also was mentioned both by myself but also about the garden earth about the open the open culture and the open practice because everyone is involved and I also mentioned that at the different kind of levels it is the resources such as the larger community and maybe from a government or the country or where it is used so it is on different kind of levels as well but the evidence is very much on behalf of the users thank you okay thank you Eba I'm doing the next question so perhaps I'll respond to it as I do that part anyway so I'll pass as a response to this cover in the next bit so here we are so the next question that we would like to address is then okay measure measuring quality and it was already put between brackets measuring that this is maybe not the right word there but still we can talk about the important actions to be taken by all stakeholders involved starting from teachers over the institution thanks Finn yeah so I think slightly going back to the previous point I lived through the what no one calls the learning object wars at the end of the 1990s and they became really bogged down in kind of over engineering metadata and definitions and measurements of quality so I think my first point is let's not over engineer anything around quality with OER but how we might improve quality I think first of all it's just a kind of an awareness raising thing it's like if people aren't aware there are good OERs out there then you can have all the fine quality you want but people just don't come across them so I think so kind of just raising awareness and ease of use of OERs helps I think easy adaptation there's still often just a slight technical barrier you know it's like you can download this an XML format or whatever it's like but they're not easy to adapt a lot of OERs and actually when you can get more going back to my first point you know about an earlier point about is that that collaborative process really improves quality so I think we can improve quality by making them easy to adapt and I like this I think need to raise the game on recognition so institutions need to reward people if they're going to produce OERs or if you're using OERs then that's it's seen as a valuable thing to do so if people if the people are rewarded for it and recognized for it then they'll use them and produce them and that in itself leads to good quality um we might want a policy around uptake so institutions or regions or national governments kind of try and promote uptake I recently put a proposal which sort of got mired in various committees that you know in my university perhaps we should say a certain percentage of every new course is made from OERs that's partly a kind of an efficiency thing but also just I think it helps just bring in different perspectives it helps make your course easily adaptable to other things so you could have those kind of things and I think as soon as you started pushing the uptake the current demand then that would drive quality also another kind of area for improving quality is to make that the providence of OERs much more available and prominent I think so people know they're getting stuff from a good provider that tends to to drive the quality of others I think some of the stuff that I think Gar was talking about you know things like ratings and trust factors that as long as they're easy to use the kind of the equivalent of trip advisor whatever you know but make those things fairly light I think and another way it's a sort of slightly to the side but I think another way you might improve the quality is to is to rethink pedagogy so a more open approach means that that resource is fulfilling a different role in how you teach rather than just a straightforward kind of delivery model so to go back to example of open textbooks if what we're interested in is our students themselves adapting a textbook and making it suit their own curriculum then that would drive the quality around that type of pedagogy whereas if we're just saying here's something you're going to receive from someone else then we're looking for slightly we're looking more at that kind of broadcast quality rather than educational quality I'll park it there and pass over okay thank you Martin that's already quite a list of measures that we can take to improve now yeah I think this question is actually a very very good question it's it's not so easy to to find the golden golden golden bullet answer to to this question the last time we had in a in a project which was called the open educational quality initiative we had asked this question we came to the conclusion that actually probably to improve quality of open education resources use we need to think about a whole system approach so we need of course policies for the organization to to set the direction that what is valued in the organization is an open access open publishing open education philosophy we need of course also on the level of the educators the educational professionals we need the support of for them to to publish their resources free and openly we need to have a risk-free environment so to speak I can tell you the the story in in in my institution we have at one point set up a platform for sharing resources and we needed to sort us all sort out all these nitty gritty little details so that people are not afraid to share their resources actually because people are afraid out of all all all kinds of reasons if they maybe forgot to delete a picture where they don't have the intellectual property rights for or if the resource maybe not a good resource and so on and so it was a total failure this platform to to share resources was a total failure in our institution and then we started with another concept which was a concept to address the issue of community and trust between the professors in my institutions and this concept we called open content clubs and so we said you the professors you are not asked to share your resources freely but what you can do is you can build a closed also an open club with three or four or five colleagues on this platform if you choose others allowed to look in there if you choose not others are not allowed to look in there and then suddenly people started to use that actually we have seven hundred sixty professors we have nine comps on all nine comps 100 percent of our curriculum is taught so these clubs actually were a perfect idea to start to share resources there and the interesting thing is that after some time we started discussions and a little bit like very very qualitative surveys and we found out that each of these clubs have their own implicit or explicit quality procedure so some of them had a peer review some of them only used material which was already standard for the last 10 years with long experience of usage lecture materials some of them used to share bought commercial materials some of them had had no explicit quality improvement mechanism but had an implicit one you can say that they said well we are talking about it with our students sometimes some were using evaluation and so on so the whole issue to see say is that in order to improve quality of open educational resources I think what what we need is this kind of of community and openness in sharing and exposing what we do as professionals with our materials to the other professionals and daring having the courage to criticize and this can take place when trust is existing actually so these issues in educational institutions which need to be worked on is trust so that sharing and quality improvement and quality consideration of what has been shared is rising so I was saying we need policies we need educational professionals who are aware of quality improvement mechanisms and of course we also need learners who are guided to use open resources and also to build their own resources and share that learners resources I think this this is my most important point that quality will build an environment where communities trust each other the individuals of communities trust each other trust factors so yes yes I think there were very many wise words which have been said I think the institution has a really key role I mean of course the teachers and authors as well but it is very much about awareness rising to build cultivate the culture of quality and about openness and about sharing and that is very much up to the institution and also very much about leadership because there need to be other kind of how you allocate resources how you allocate time how you what kind of incentives there are for teachers to work on on using an OER and I think also them there are two sides maybe both of course for the for the learners perspective of the teachers but there's also this systemic change which are needed where the institution really play a large role and I think that was as we not said for another question that that was raised very much yesterday uh for the open university on the open universities sessions how we I mean the whole educational system need to to re-change and to be reconstructed and then I also think that a lot will happen maybe not automatically but a bit bit bit forbid and God was saying earlier on that it takes some time but the use of open pedagogy is very very important I think and how how we apply to that and reply and how we adapt an open pedagogical approach because there is open educational resources included and the whole area of openness and open education practice and culture so I think if we have embraced the the approach of open pedagogy a lot of things also will be maybe be changed so more discussions about that thank you while there is some some some discussion going on in the chat box and I appreciate that very much I think some of the issues have already been addressed but there is one particular question that has not been addressed yet and that was a question about could it be that there are like different ideas of quality between young people and experienced ones I think that when it comes to improving quality that that intergenerational idea or learning could also be something interesting and I was just wondering Garth maybe I'm sorry I said maybe I should follow the example of Malte here and because I will speak on the next team so maybe I could connect that to an collection to the next team then I give the floor to Irene maybe she can address that particular question on the yes I think over this issue as well and you know now I think teachers at schools change the point of view towards creative ideas that come from children you know and and sometimes they are amazed they don't know what to do with it they don't know how to integrate and provide space for the children to develop their own ideas then the children from primary school grow towards teenagers and I think they become more and more closed inside and I think this might be a metaphor for us despite of the age that we have if we do not receive support on the early development of the idea or if this development must be stopped you know before we reach our results due to very different reasons some education policies some organizational policy national or european or whatever it is some quality assurance standards that are that we are obsessed sometimes about in Europe especially with the programs and courses then the good ideas are abandoned and also if me as a teacher and as an educator lacks some technical skills using sophisticated tools as Martin said to adapt the OERs towards the environments that are used within my institution then this also is the reason that I will drop the idea out so I would say that generation as well as quality I also wear that some more advanced and more experienced users would maybe have a different approach to quality then less experienced users I think these factors might be categorized into the same category I think experience age skills in different areas and this comes to one recommendation from my side support support systems for the users and I think this is what we should think about I now talk on the perspective of hidden and other professional community I think we need to think about how to support people who pick up these ideas who come with crazy ideas and at a distance so I think that you will have to be the let's say ambassador of the universities but let's move on time with accreditation of sort of formal recognition for quality open educational resources or do we version like it has been already introduced by Martin in his previous thank you women thank you all you comment the previous well if I interpret that this question presentation that brings to my mind some kind of agency that do a consideration and come out with a decision accredited or not like brings my thinking to link it in Facebook with advice from good weeks and all that and I think basically none of us why the idea of learning and let's learn my theory is of course a question about incentive it is of course a question of a knowledge and be a knowledge the mutual respect that builds trust between people so basically I think that the responsibility of quality has to be by those that create the overall that is my my basic use and the next coming from the same would be that well one could imagine in the future that you had some kind of accreditation of system accreditation well a part of the accreditation in university for example get is its capacity and quality culture that is delivering and consuming or yeah but the responsibility and the accountability for quality it might be has to be by the creator whatever that is the original creator the adapter the student or whatever so in the end of the day you will then ask well if that is the case how can we the user we the society know that this is quality if it is the creator that is the constable I would say that for those that are providing OER it is a great responsibility that they claim quality why well as it is like with taxes right why do you declare your salary and all that to be taxated by by government who would do that voluntary we do that voluntary in our social society because we trust that will lead to the better good and in the same way I think that by declaring quality that you are transparent on what kind of quality systems you have and what kind of level you deliver quality will be extremely helpful to create trust and also to guide for usability so I think that stopped here I'm not against like I like like when they are used in in that kind of challenging way but I think I said that responsibility and costability has to be by the creator and that we need transparency and claiming quality thank you either sorry either you use peer reviews teacher reviews or just use it in the curricula so thank you accountability at the one hand by the creators but also trust from the institution and the community in general and that combines nicely too with what you call a quality culture that's a very nice way of putting things together I think Martin can I ask you some first reflections on that do you agree I think we need easy things that people kind of see a stamp I think one of the problems that OER really has is just kind of brand recognition and that's very difficult to compete with against kind of big publishers who kind of push stuff out and so when we ask people about where to get your knowledge is from they say YouTube Google Khan Academy maybe TEDx that's it no mentors OER that's because all of our efforts are kind of distributed so I think there is a kind of need for a kind of brand thing so maybe that does kind of come to a formal recognition or your your part of the club and we've tried this a bit with moops in Europe with the open iPad thing with a kind of quality brand but it needs needs money and it needs sort of effort and I still do worry about the kind of we'll end up with a very formal kind of very academic type solution that just completely destroys all the all the fun all the experimentation in the process and I think a lot of what's attractive about OER is they are kind of lightweight and you can do different things to them and you can experiment and those kind of things and I think so people like Jim Groom for those who know him you know and what he does with DS106 with him open education OER is very different from about a license or a quality badge but they do really interesting experimental things I wouldn't want us to introduce anything that kind of crushes that innovation if you like and makes it too dry okay thank you Martin I agree with God's reflections and as I said earlier I think just to look at the OER as such it is I mean I think it was mentioned earlier also that from you Mark in that maybe some so-called bad OERs maybe have a purpose to some learners and in that way they can be good or some more professional developed OERs maybe or maybe not not as good as because they are in one in one context and for one purpose and for one target group so I I think it is very difficult but also accreditation it is used to that term used to be used for and you know a national agency who really I mean take the whole perspective of something and then as the OER is a new is developing all the time and I think maybe the best quality qualification so to say we shall use that term is that if a resource is used if it has a purpose if it is reused if it is maybe translated if it is used in different kind of context etc then it is qualified very much I would say so the users in the community have a huge power and impact here how we shall deal with it and how we shall how it will be recognized so again that the user community perspective is important thank you did you ask something with okay I think all who are involved have a responsibility of course the the teacher or the offer of the OER have one responsibility that is also used to be claimed that there are all already some kind of measurement steps because first of all if I create something I will not leave it for free if I'm not happy or satisfied with it so that is the first quality step so to say and also if it is created within a university for example university will not let teachers or academics have the OERs in their name if it is bad quality so we already have some kind of quality steps but I think very much it's the users because it is at the end of the day it is the user who are benefiting from dope medication resources yes now sorry I didn't you called me up to save time I also can transfer the comment to the final question I can say that I have been involved in accreditation the last six years as a vice president of my institution and the people in my institution they always draw a fine line between accreditation and quality and I think that's that's because everybody understands that accreditation so to speak has a lot to do with with the context of taxpayers and customer protection issues for certain contexts in higher education for example and if you have an open educational resource you don't really have a you're not not always you're not always have a certain context so the accreditation issue here I think is is a really tricky one that's the point I wanted to make all students the learners themselves considered them as users of okay thanks Lynn actually the issue of involvement of students and learners in OER use and development is I think cross question in this discussion I didn't find actually better statistics maybe it's my ignorance but I liked this OER evidence report because I found very concrete data in one place and you know I was thinking who students and learners are sometimes we think that we all are students and we all are learners especially with the advent of and on formal learning and I think it is inevitable that very soon we will make accreditation systems and then quality agencies recognize these supplements in our deployment I hope so and I think this way and I think this will be happening soon and talking about this I think it is important how we all see the evidence and the use and as Ruth mentioned previously trying out to make several links the impact of OER which means also improvement of the quality if I follow you correctly on education and on formal studies so we see that I highlighted two statements in red to adapt resources to fit our needs and use OERs to get new ideas and inspirations and I think this is linked very much to what we started with about the incentive and motivation and actually the internal flame that we all get when we see that we may improve something or may add or may contribute with something from our side to the better resource to the better education to the better scenario but here I must admit that my internal belief is that students and learners should be allowed to do that should be able to do that and there should be conditions created so if the link may be made with the recognition of open learning and OERs as the learning resources I think it may happen that learners and students will choose OERs as better learning resources and they will be choosing those that give credit and give important information that God says provided by the authors of OER and I would never now select a course despite of the fact that it would be very interesting for me as a learner if I don't see clear indication how and where I could accredited and how and where it is linked with the qualification of formal studies or company requirements that is going to employ me as a professional I think this comes with the autonomous learners with the conscious learners who select consciously the institution that act responsibly so I think that students and learners are already and will be even more contributing to the dispute on the quality of OER when they will be allowed to suggest how to improve the quality when they will be able to modify them and adapt them for their purposes and when curriculum designing despite of if it is open or closed for let's say some experimenting piloting of curriculum allows them to get involved into the processes when our environments are open and they can participate in development of these environments and also make impact and influence and I think when they can consciously assess the impact of OER from their learning and well this is not made up to your comment but yes when they are able to use OER to establish open educational practices I think this is a must condition and we already have examples from formal studies when certain open educational practices even become OERs so they work in virtual learning environments they create some artifacts in groups but then they are published as OERs for modification adaptation and reuse so I think this also might be happening vice versa so OER to OEPs and then OEP to OERs and I think this is the big change also in the process so these are just short examples and considerations maybe now I will open the floor for your reactions and comments but I think the next slide is not yeah yeah so I will continue about the students perspectives and the learners perspectives and I have this slide again because I think it is so really important because both in the learners perspective and for the educational perspective it is education is a question of democracy and to be and to involve everyone so I like to have this slide again open educational resources and open educational practices and open educational culture is about equity quality access inclusive diversity and education for all and sustainability lifelong learning and all those words apply to a very high extent from to the learners perspective how can they have access how can we embrace diversity from the learners perspective how can we embrace education for all we talked about different kind of age groups etc earlier on and how can we provide learning possibilities in a lifelong perspective so it is very much about equality and equity recently there was an article published in inside a higher education in December 2007 by Christina Hendricks and she wrote about the students vital role in open educational resources maybe some of you have seen it or read it but she argued very much and that is my claim as well that students have a vital role in embracing facilitating quality assurance so if we still use that concept open educational resources and that she also claimed that learners learned much more and in a deeper aspect and that they learned very much about culture differences about diversity about different kind of perspectives on a special topics than they did with so-called traditional learning material materials and doing so she also claimed that learning in that way make an impact on the word not just for their learning aspect for the students but also their impact in the word as a global citizen so students have a really vital role and that's exactly what Irina also stressed there and also also mentioned in this report from OER hub that learners students use OER to a very high extent because they are interested in a special topic they would like to learn they would like have an idea about something so they do it even if it is not really promoted are always from educational formal settings so yes students have a vital role and we have to give them and allow them to take that responsibility sorry I also would like to to argue and show what David Billy is writing about assignments and he did it in the way for open education because I think OER it's not just a question of the OER as such it is about open education approach and we all know that assignments are maybe one of the most steering element in the educational system nowadays because students learn for their exams and that's why I would like to claim that we need also to not just change the curricula and the way teaching and learning are delivered but also very much how we made assignments and their exams and how they are done so really raised the question about how can assignments as such be built on open education resources which I think that that was what you mentioned as well Irina but how can students for their exams and take responsibility to use all this kind of OERs and to build further on upon what is all upon what is already done and to work to work in a more deeper way to maybe do something something themselves and to maybe revise or adapt or whatever or translate OER which already are there or maybe put some new elements in it because that is the way the OER movement can move further on and that is also more motivating for the learners to not just study for the exam and for the subject and the topic as such but to be more involved in this learning process which is useful both for the students and for the learners but also for the community and in the end of the day for the provider public as well so they can feel that they are more collaborators I think that was one of the words I mentioned already in the first slide I had for this session to work with the students as collaborators because they have an enormous potential so I think I will end by this and then we can discuss. So was that me sorry okay sorry thanks you know I think they've both touched upon things that I've already already raised I think this idea of getting students to engage with you and if that's the case then two things need to happen one is it needs to be easy for them to you don't want there to be a technical barrier in doing that because it takes up too much of the kind of the real estate of the course to explain how to do it but also there needs to be a kind of pedagogic shift I think in that you change the way that you teach that students feel this is a valuable thing to do and that sort of co-creating the curriculum in a way becomes an academic exercise so it's so good just saying hear some material go off and do something with it that needs to be part of how you you structure your course overall but I think that both those points were covered very well. No just to reinforce that I am very very convinced that students are very very aware of their needs and their interests and their objectives and their goals and if they are not then they need to be then we need to work on that as educators to make them aware of their their ways their pathways which which they need to to learn I said it in the beginning that I'm very much a fan or in favor of this transformational quality understanding that education and learning is a transformational process and that already gives the indication that I think that the learner is really in the center and we need to do everything to involve the learner into making an ally in the educational experience to shape it as a co-creator like Martin and others said so that he or she is having really a key role as that key role in the quality debate. I think that is the area that is most understood when it comes to OER and that I would justify by observing the aspect of innovation social innovation that is not yet not yet we have taken the benefit as we could this is an area that I think we all should explore much more that how can the capacity by students and teachers be increased by triggering the social innovation aspect from the OER so that of course goes for the quality of the learning thank you that you're linked to to social innovation and how to to introduce that in education. Ladies and gentlemen dear panelists and dear participants from a distance I promised that I would ask all panelists to conclude away from this webinar because the time is running and we are already a bit over time I allow them to to summarize this whole webinar in just one sentence just one takeaway you two to elaborate yeah okay I'll go with keep OER fun and make them accessible to everybody. Can you give your takeaway message from this webinar please? We build better the OER community on quality. Ulf I switch to you now. I support Lothi. The takeaways are the joy of learning and that you involve and include learners in in the discussion at all times. Eva can you summarize or give one message for the participants? I guess it's medium but I didn't hear you yet. Two sentences short one I think if you can you summarize or can you give your last thoughts on the webinar try to summarize one question or another one to continue supporting those who go for. So I think that at this moment this is a very good very fruitful sharing of ideas and in the participants from a distance for all their questions and remarks for the discussion so lively that I couldn't follow time myself. Good tradition of open educational provides you with the link to the recorded version of this webinar so that you could use it yourself as a resource for other. So it was my pleasure to be the bother.