 and welcome to Data Diversity Talks, a podcast where we discuss with industry leaders and experts how they have built their careers around data. I'm your host Shannon Kemp and today we have a special podcast for you today which was recorded live from Enterprise Data World Digital as we discuss building a career in data management with a panel of data management experts. With a robust catalog of courses offered on demand and industry leading live online sessions throughout the year, the Data Diversity Training Center is your launchpad for career success. Browse the complete catalog at training.dataversity.net and use code DBTOX for 20% off your purchase. Hello and welcome my name is Shannon Kemp and I'm the Chief Digital Officer at Data Diversity and this is a special edition of my career in data, a Data Diversity Talks podcast dedicated to learning from those who have careers in data management to understand how they got there and to be talking with people who help make those careers a little bit easier. To keep up to date in the latest in data management education, go to dataversity.net forward slash subscribe. And what makes today special is we are recording live for Enterprise Data World Digital, affectionately known as EDW, the longest-running event produced by Data Diversity in partnership with Daima International. And while today is a digital event, I'm so happy to announce that EDW will be returning in person this year, September 18th through 21st in Anaheim, California. And today we are joined by a panel of data management professionals to discuss building a career in data management. And I'm going to ask the panelists to introduce themselves if y'all can turn your cameras on. Well, if you would tell us your name, your job title and what you currently do. April, let's start with you. Hello and welcome. Hi, there. I'm April Reeve. So I'm in transition. I'm I've been I my career has been in pharmaceuticals and financial services corporate mostly worked for corporations. And I'm moving towards just doing teaching and writing and and away from working for corporations for for, I guess, probably forever. And so that's it for me for now. Historically, you've held held a role as a data architect. Is that correct? I've alternated between being a data architect and a project manager, program manager. So from, you know, between between creating a vision and implementing the vision. I love it. Thank you. David. Good morning. My name is David Plotkin. I am the head of metadata services at a large bank. A lot of my career has been in either banking or insurance because that seems to be the the types of companies that that had openings when I needed them. But it's been very, very satisfying. My background is as an engineer transitioning to data management in the late 80s and sort of progressing through various practical things like data administration, data modeling, metadata, data quality, and finally data governance and data stewardship. The future looks like much like April, planning to step away from the the nine to five employee of a large corporation and try and and using my skills to perhaps help organizations that, you know, can't afford, you know, large expensive consultancies to try and give back in that realm because there are certainly companies and school districts and counties and the like habitat for humanity who need our skills but can't really afford to pay a lot of money for them. So that's it for me. I love that. That's so great about this community. Is everyone so willing to help each other out and give back? It's just one of the best parts of being part of this community. Darren, hello and welcome. Yeah, thank you. Glad to be here. My name is Darren Hook. I'm the director of data governance and management at American Express and I have been for the last year. I've been in data governance for 10 plus years. So I've been the director of data governance for three companies now all in the financial services industry. Nice. And Frank, hello and welcome. Hi, welcome. I'm Frank Sirwin. I basically am doing what David is planning to do. I've been doing that for the last six years. I basically became an independent consultant, working with a number of different industries, mostly global. And fortunately, I haven't had to market because of the network I've built over 46 years in IT. So my career began in the 70s. I started with government entity and went into consulting for a little while, then went into mostly financial services. But I've worked with pharmacies and restaurants. I was a director at McDonald's of global data services, also a director at JPMorgan Chase. Very nice. So tell me, how did you get into the space and why have you stayed? David, let's start with you. Okay. Well, I think as so many will probably answer, it was purely by accident. I was working as a, I have a degree in chemical engineering, working at Chevron. And Chevron does everything with engineers. So they were recruiting people who knew something about computers and recruited me into a new organization that was gathering requirements and doing data modeling. That led the natural progression to metadata to data quality and then data governance and data stewardship, which is kind of where my career has been for about the last 15 years. Very nice. And let's move to Darren. Yeah. So I moved into the data governance space when I was actually a business analyst at Hewlett Packard. And I was going to get my MBA at Purdue and long story short, I was looking for another job, another role. So I was searching for business analysts, data analysts, and one popped up that said data governance business analyst. And like what David said, I stumbled into it because I didn't know what it meant. I just thought, hey, this might get me closer to the data. And so I applied and I don't even know if the company even understood what data governance was. They just brought me on and I started learning what it was and found out that rather than me, I thought, oh, maybe I want to be a data scientist. I got my MBA at Purdue with a concentration in data and analytics thinking probably data science. And as I learned more and grew in my role in data governance, I realized I'd be able to work with people more. I liked bridging the gap between technology and business and being able to translate for the other really found that I enjoyed with all the chaos that data brings that I could then step in and bring that clarity and communicate to the right people what the value of data is and that I could take that passion that I have for data and people and bring those together in a career. So I've really enjoyed staying in the space. I love it. Thanks, Frank. Well, I actually data management, I have to say it was a self made position. I happen to be an application development and support manager at a major Chicago bank. And I was responsible for ATM systems, teller systems, interactive voice response, internet banking. And I started to see a lot of similarities in the data and came up with this idea for an omnichannel customer master data solution and designed it at my kitchen table at home and presented it to management. They liked the idea and said, great, go and build a team and start and do it and deploy it. And actually this was in 1989, years before any master data solutions were commercial master data solutions were on the market. And if anybody's wondering, yes, the bank did file a patent on it and I got to work on the path as well. So that's very cool. April. So how do you get this piece? Yeah. Yeah. So I was a programmer. I was working for a software company in the financial services area. And I was programming. I was managing building product. And they came to me and they said, we need somebody to run our data migration data conversion group. And I started doing that. And I, you know, when I created that capability, and like Frank was saying, you know, you create a new capability. And I was just, I was really good at it. So I started building on that and then looking around for other people that were also working in this data space. Very cool. So all of you kind of fell into this, you know, so what made you good at it? And what did you bring to these roles to make yourselves valuable? Darren, let's start with you. Yeah, sure. So I've been told that I just have the personality for data governance, I guess. And how I translate that is that I think that I'm pretty good with establishing relationships with people and gaining that trust. Because because data governance is so new, and a lot of people don't know about it, you kind of need that person who is willing to share knowledge, willing to train others, willing to and able to communicate what's going on, what the vision is, you know, how this strategy is going to translate into value. And I think that, yeah, just having again that passion for, you know, and understanding of the knowledge of data and the importance of it really helped me to gain that trust of people that were going on this new journey. And you can trust in me and we can go through this journey together. And then once you start getting more value from it, then you're able to then show more and more people and get more people on board and just continue to run with it. Very nice. Frank. Well, I think it's my, basically I've developed a holistic perspective of master data management. And I owe that to a lot of the different roles that I've had over the course of my career. I was an application developer. I've managed database administrators as many as 85 DBAs at one time. Data integration. I, for the bank, I also was disaster recovery coordinator. I was a manager of the e-commerce sites. So across all those different experiences I've had, I just think it basically gave me a very holistic perspective, basically, of master data management, as well as data governance. And so that's why I decided basically to focus on my career with towards the tail end of my career, as I call it now. Very nice. And April. So one of my earliest bosses said I could make something out of nothing. That I was really good at creating a vision of what we needed and then implementing that. And I think that that was one of the aspects that made me a really good enterprise data architect. That I could look at the whole picture and say, oh, we need this piece and it needs to look like this and it needs to interface in this way. The other side of that coin is in terms of operationalizing data management, it really requires the ability to focus at a detail level on the data. And so people in data management, some may be good at the big picture and people who are actually working day to day with the data, they have to be really good at that detail focus level. And I can do both. I think that people in data management actually tend to be a bit ambidextrous, like seriously, right? Because they have this right brain, left brain balance capability. Everyone was nodding, yes. So it's not, you know, I mean, it's not everybody really has that balance, that ability to cross. And musicians do, which is why a lot of people in data management also happen to be musicians. Very true. I like that correlation. David? Yeah, so a lot of what the other folks have said applies to me as well. I'm good at building relationships. I always considered myself a bridge guy, bridging between IT and the business, which is ideal for data governance because it is a business initiative, but it has to be supported by IT. And in a lot of companies, the initial impetus to try and get data governance going is an IT initiative, but it is not going to work very well unless the business buys in. So there's very much of a role there. Building trust, as Darren said, and being able to communicate in my early days, oh, and also as an engineer, having a mind for details as well as being an analytical thinker. And I have this specific focus on practical steps to get the work done. So somebody else, you know, a Ron Ross or somebody like that, might come up with a, you know, a high powered set of principles, say around business rules. And then for me, it was always like now in the real world, how can I take that really good idea and turn it into something we can implement step by step by step. And that has been the cornerstone of my career is to do all of that and be good at it and be trusted and be the person that people come to whenever they can't figure something out and say, can you help me understand this? So that was pretty much it. Very nice. So first, how do you get through, no, the tough parts of data management, right? How do you get through temporary crises or a layoff? Should you reinvent yourself? Find a new role? How do you handle the tough parts? So, Frank, let's start with you. And actually, before I'll answer that question, there was that correlation to music, which actually, I heard that back in the 80s. And one time I brought my staff into a room, there was 15 of us, and I asked my staff, I said, so how many of you had a background in music, which includes me, by the way, and 14 people raised their hand. And one person said, funny thing is, I've never played an instrument, but the English translation of my name is music. So that counts. That's funny. Should we test that theory now? How many of us here have some involvement in music? But the majority, right? I thought you were going to say, let's test it out by singing or harmonizing. I'll answer that question first. I'd say, people have to, and I told us to staff that worked for me as well as I was mentoring IT people in transition for several years after I was in transition. The networking groups I was part of would send IT professionals to me, to mentor for years. I'd say one of the things is, you have to take control of your own career. I mean, don't expect your company to run your career for you. And I've run across people who think that. They say, well, if they don't pay for the class, I'm not going to take it. They don't pay for a particular book and don't reimburse me. I'm not going to buy it. And I said, you really have to take charge of your own career. And you're responsible for it, not your company. And if your company happens to help out by providing classes or whatever, great. But I know that that's the kind of thing I've been all through my career, where I basically went on my own, learned a lot of things on my own through reading, through joining Dama. I've been a member of Dama Chicago for, gosh, I don't know, 30 years or more, you know, going to these conferences, you know, learning things. And basically, you know, even paying for memberships in, you know, organizations. But I'd say that's that's the one thing I really kind of stress is that, you know, and unfortunately, I see a lot of people who basically look to their company to say, you know, to run their career for them. Very nice. David. Yeah. So repeat the question again, because I think we might, we might, I just want to make sure I stay on topic. Yeah, absolutely. So how, how are we handling the tough times, you know, through get through a temporary crisis or layoff? And should you reinvent yourself, find a new role? All right, thank you. Thank you very much, Shannon. So here's where that sort of, I talked earlier about being a practitioner and solving problems step by step by step. So there, there are certain things, I mean, probably the most important one, and I know it's obvious is be prepared, be prepared to make the jump. If you need to make the jump, be pro, you know, always the usual stuff, keep your resume up to date and whatnot. But over the years, what I've gotten really good at is sort of keeping tabs, for example, on recruiters who are looking for roles that are good, that there is a good fit. Might not be interested at the time, but I keep a record. And of course, we're linked in now, right? And, and so being able to reach out to them and say, well, I wasn't interested before, but what do you got now? They're also, I've learned in these many years, certain warning signs that something is coming. And, you know, one of the things Tony mentioned was, you know, you always seem to be able to get a new job quickly. Well, I have a very strong network. In fact, one of the jobs I got, I was recruited into it by April, because she's part of my network, right? And I'm part of hers. But you need to be, you know, ready to make, to do that. And of course, those warning signs can be very subtle. But if you see things happening at your company that's making your job, for example, more and more difficult, maybe you're not allowed to travel anymore. And, you know, how do you, how can you be the head of data stewardship? If you can't meet with folks, you know, and this was in the days before Zoom and that kind of thing. But even now, you know, I'm definitely a believer in face-to-face being needed once in a while, at least once in a while. When that becomes impossible, what that tells me is the company is not putting the value on what I do that I'm putting on it. And then it's time to maybe start responding positively to those recruiters and seeing what else is out there. Perfect. April, I think that Frank mentioned networking. David mentioned networking. I think that in terms of, you know, finding new jobs, networking is critical. And networking doesn't happen when you lose a job. It's, it needs to be going on and happening all the time. I'm terrible, by the way, at it. Like when I've had layoff situations, like I just want to get in bed and pull the covers up and I don't want to talk to anybody. But it, but that's the thing you need to do. You need to be talking every day. You need to be contacting your network and stuff. And by the way, LinkedIn now absolutely is kind of the best place in terms of, you know, networking and finding jobs and connecting. The last three jobs I've had have been through LinkedIn. Either I've found a job and gone out and applied or in two of the cases, they found me through LinkedIn. So, so, you know, that, and maybe LinkedIn is getting to be even a little old fashioned in terms of job search these days. But, but that's been what's worked for me. And, and I've also, I've also found these are, you know, and I think to Frank's point, you know, your training and keeping up and moving forward with, with skills, developing skills should be an ongoing thing. But I've also found that, you know, periods between jobs are an excellent time to train and reskill and, as well. Yeah, by the way, one of my jobs I also was found through LinkedIn. So, and what, and what I would add to that is that LinkedIn seems to do the best job of any of the boards or recruiters at making a good match on your skills. I get some really wild out in left field queries from recruiters. I don't from LinkedIn. They're usually spot on. But be careful what you put out on other social media, because the HR departments will check. Just a word of warning about social media. That's nice. Darren. Yeah, I completely agree with what everyone has already said, just to touch on a few of those. I think David was saying that, you know, you got to be prepared for that time. And I completely agree with not only your network, you know, as much as your skills as possible, but also those touching on the warning signs that he was talking about. So I've seen those throughout my career as well. And being in data governance, you have to, you know, obviously, data governance is different for each organization depending on the culture. And there are some cultures that inhibit accelerating data governance initiatives because we're all about collaboration and bringing people together. If the organization's culture is going in a different way and more siloed and, you know, not that environment where people can collaborate. That's when I've started looking for other positions. And so I actually had a friend call me yesterday, you know, who has been an analyst, you know, in a few different roles as his MBA and wanted to learn more about data roles. And I was like, this is a great space to be in. It is a blue ocean of opportunity. There's such high demand and it's going to continue. And so being in this space, even if you don't have the experience, people will take you even if you show a little bit of initiative. If you go out to one of the tooling sites and, you know, download, you know, their tool and play around with it in the sandbox or there's a lot of opportunities out there to get certifications that are for free or are, you know, don't cost too much. And you can put that on your resume to say, hey, I am now shifting and reinventing myself and want to get into the data governance, data management, you know, et cetera space. I feel like, you know, traditional academic methods, you know, are great. But then there's also so many more opportunities to learn and continually learn and add those skills and certifications and things on your resume. Very nice and very appropriate advice. You know, I will say that in terms of networking and LinkedIn, one of the best advice, some of the best advice that I've heard is actually Darren from your employee, Ocrity, who's on your team. She's amazing. She actually goes out and looks for mentors on LinkedIn and just contacts people and just establishes relationships and says, hey, are you going to, you know, up for some coffee, you know, virtual coffee? And it's just great way to build that network. So I said the same thing to my friend yesterday and said, you're not going to get responses from everybody, but you know what? If you do it enough, then there's going to be some in that pipeline that do actually respond and take some time to mentor you and talk you through, you know, what you can do next to, you know, better your career. Ready to share your knowledge and network with your data peers? Join us in San Diego this June for the data governance and information quality conference. Five days packed full of new perspectives, new colleagues and new approaches are yours when you register at dgiq 2023 west dot dataversity.net. Lock in early bird savings when you register by May 5th. We'll see you there. You know, on that note, you know, how do you stay relevant? How do you grow into more senior roles? And are there conscious things you can do to position yourself for advancement in the field of data management? Let's start with April. Yeah, so this is, yeah, we're building, right? Networking, training, conferences, webinars, right? What are other people doing bringing these ideas into your organization or, or, you know, bringing ideas into, into those organizations? You know, those, those are the, those are the basics. Those are important. And the thing that I think is something that you can do in within your own organization is learning more about the tools that exist in your, in your organization. A lot of times, there's a lot of tools that have already been purchased or already there. And nobody knows really how to use them. Nobody really understands what the opportunities are without customization, right? They get in there into their head, oh, we have to customize these tools. And it's like, Hey, you know, those tools do some really great things. Otherwise, they sort of wouldn't be on the market, you know, they wouldn't be doing well. Why don't you understand the way they do them and how we might, you might be able to use that. And, and I think that really shows within your own organization without changing, that can really show value to the, to the organization. If you're using things that the organization already has paid for already has and leveraging that and making, making yourself more valuable to the organization in that way. That's great advice. Frank. I would say, I mean, one of the things that I found to be successful is don't get too hung up on the technologies. I mean, we really need to relate better to the business as IT professionals, because that's our job, right? I mean, that's, that's what we're trying to do is, is to improve the business, you know, not to put out the latest and greatest technology necessarily. So, you know, so that's what I tell people, you really need to, you know, say, okay, how did you make that the business succeed better? How did you make it better? And no matter if that's what, you know, you ought to be putting on resumes, right? I mean, not a laundry list appears all the technologies I worked on, because then it sounds just like everybody else's resume, right? You know, and by the way, a resume, you know, it's not an autobiography. It's, it's a marketing tool to get you to be seen in person for that interview, right? A lot of people forget that, you know, and it sounds more like an autobiography. As a hiring manager, I've seen them over the years. I've even had to shame some recruiters who basically sent me resumes that were 10 pages long, you know, like, I don't need to meet this person. I know the whole, I got the whole book, you know, you know, but I'd say that's, that's an important thing. Also, don't become too indispensable in your position. So indispensable that you can't move up, right? Train, start to train the people that can take your place, because your management, you know, if they come to rely on you too heavily, they're not going to want to move you, right? So they're going to want to keep you right where you're at, because, you know, they, because they know they're going to lose something of their own, you know, that, you know, that they won't look as successful if suddenly somebody who comes in totally green, you know, takes over for you. Lots of everybody nodding on that one. Go ahead April, sorry. And like Frank was saying earlier, now, I mean, this is at a particular position, right? But recommending new capabilities to your organization is also a way of moving up, right? Like, you know, this is how you could, you know, like recommending, let's say a data lake, your organization didn't have a data lake or, or a data governance capability, or, you know, the kinds of things, you know, maybe that your organization doesn't have is a way for you to, to, to move up to, to create a new capability within the organization. I mean, not everybody at every level is going to be able to do that. Very nice. Darren? Yeah, agree with what everybody's been saying. I do think that soft skills and, and focusing on, you know, some of the relationship building, the trust, I mean, we talked about this as, as, as we talked about what makes us personally, you know, good at our jobs and, and why we like being in it. The fact that we can get that trust and build relationships with people is something that, you know, if you're not very good at it, like there's opportunities to get better. I would say volunteer as a mentor, volunteer, you know, at your local damage chapter to, you know, either be on the board or, or present or, you know, be a speaker, you know, at events like these, and, and just take the opportunities that are out there so that you can then further your skills and your opportunities, build your brand and your reputation, because if you do come with, you know, a new data lake or this new idea, do they trust that you can take that and run with it and, and allocate resources to you for, you know, those more senior level roles and have that trust that you're going to be successful at it and, you know, be able to move that. So that's what I've seen. Very nice. David, anything you want to add? Yeah. So in general, I do tend to agree. I find it a little amusing that, that Frank said that technology is not the answer. And this from the guy who looks like he's got a Kodak Brownie and an old slide projector on the wall behind him. I've got those two, Frank. But very definitely. And, and just recently, you know, there are all of these tools kind of lying around. Big companies tend to, in one way or another, grab them up and either maybe never use them or only use 10% of what they're capable of. And you can, you know, we have a mechanism where I can request having that tool installed, and then start playing with and discover all kinds of things that it does. And, and actually, one of those tools turned out to be a decent interim solution for some data quality issues until we could get something bigger and enterprise strength in place. The definitely keeping your, you know, training up your team. One of the things I really focus on is training the team that works for me, how to do what I do. Now, they may not all be able to do everything I do, but if the combination of those things, of the people on the team have those skills, I can do things like, oh, go on vacation and not come back to 600 emails and crises because they've dealt with it while I was gone. Okay. That said, you know, when I look at what my boss does and the things that interest me, I try to learn how and what, not that I really want his job, because it's like a lot of administration, but he does it very well. I don't want to do it. But in general, looking for new capabilities, looking to expand your education. And, you know, I come back to the webinars, a lot of the diversity stuff, the, the conferences, I mean, I go to conferences looking specifically for sessions that fill in the gaps I know I have. And by the way, you have to be able to admit to yourself that you have those gaps, that you don't understand that. And then look for those things to help you get educated, maybe go out and, and buy the book that that presenter has written on the topic and find time to read it. Because if you really want to expand and potentially either move up or sideways, you, you need to expand your knowledge base. I can add one, one thing to share. And so I, as part of being with the bank, I was part of a bank that was acquired, I was on the acquired side three times. And as far as survival there, when I found in it, I wasn't saying that technology is important, David, but, but you don't want to connect yourself too closely to a particular technology. Like people that I saw that basically said, I'm all about this application. If it wasn't a selected application, when they started doing migrations, they went with the application. They got tossed too. So you don't want to connect too closely and say, I think those I go because that may be exactly what happens. Well, and you know, Frank, you remind me also about tool vendors, right? A lot of people sort of look at tool vendors as kind of a necessary evil. I look at them as a huge opportunity. So if someone is selling an application or licensing an application that does something that I don't understand, I don't understand what it does. I don't understand why it does it. Or I don't understand how it does it. I will ask the vendors to help me learn. If you make the vendor your friend, then they will be there for you to help you expand your education. And as a practitioner, again, looking for practical solutions, sometimes just figuring out what the tool is doing as it does it saying, Oh, so that's how they solve that problem with their tool might not be the only way probably isn't. But at least it's one way that, you know, a company has invested significant resources in bringing to the user community. Very nice. So let's shift the perspective a little bit. We've talked about how you all have grown in your careers, how you have stayed relevant yourselves. But let's talk about recruiting. So how do you recruit people and bring them into the data management space? What do you all look for? There's a lot of questions in the chat about certification, should I get a certification, that kind of thing. And where will the next generation of data management professionals come from? So let's, David, let's start back with you again. Okay. So, you know, in that vein, I actually made a note, I want to come back to something that that Darren said, which is find the people who are interested and encourage them and train those people within your organization and even mentor people outside your organization and kind of keep them on your here's an old fashioned term, your Rolodex, right, your list. And as things come up, and you have a need, you might reach out to them and say, Hey, I have this position that I'm recruiting for. And based on our conversations previously, I think this, this might be right up your alley. And, and, you know, you can do that, you can go at it that way. Being on the data stewardship side of data governance and therefore interacting, interacting a lot with business analysts of one type or another data analysts, you find the people who are really good at this stuff, and who are really, really passionate about data, and who want to protect their data and who want people to use their data properly. And as part of maybe being data stewards, they may develop the skills and including, you know, the current tools like your business glossary or your repository, that you could recruit them onto your team, right, and, and bring them in. So it's both internal, those people you're working with, as well as external, the people you're mentoring, and that of course, focuses again on the value, the two way value of mentoring, right, you're helping some young person, perhaps learn this stuff. But that person may also become a resource to you in the future. Very nice. And Karen. Yeah. So I've done a number of recruiting, building of teams, etc. And completely agree with what David is saying, because yeah, I do rely on my network. For example, my current team, half of them are from people that I've met at DJI Q or, you know, we're already in my network, etc. One thing, you know, focused on kind of, you know, backgrounds and educational backgrounds, for example, you know, there's not too many data governance majors or programs that are out there that, you know, people just linearly, you know, graduate from and come right in. And so generally, I look for somebody who has, again, in data governance, you know, tried to, I can see that they're already bridging that gap of, you know, they have a little bit of business, a little bit of tech, a little bit of information systems, mathematics, you know, etc. And, you know, I'll usually see, you know, a couple majors or, you know, minors or at least like a certification or an interest in, you know, each of those. But I also wouldn't restrict it to just that because, you know, I've seen, you know, great data management professionals come from zoology, from chemistry, from, you know, all over. And so I think when you're creating like a job description, for example, don't restrict it to, hey, you need to have, you know, such and such, you know, years of experience in data governance, for example, because it's relatively new. And so what are you really looking for? You're actually looking for somebody who has that passion for data, who is showing that initiative to and to touch on certifications, you know, your CDMP certification as a data management professional, that's one of the big ones that I look for, that shoots people up my list, if they've already shown that interest and have gotten that certification. But there's others out there, I've mentioned before, with particular tools, you know, the free resources, etc., showing that initiative, you know, really shows me that they're not in it just to, you know, get a paycheck every week. It's like, no, you want to, you know, be more ambitious and take on the challenge that is data management, because you do have to be really passionate about it and be willing to accept the challenge. Very great. Very, very interesting. Passion is, seems to be the common theme here so far, which I love. April, when you, so the, when I'm trying to build data people, right, or discover data people who didn't know they were data people, a lot of times business analysts have the skill sets that, or a lot of the skill sets that you're looking for, so that can be a good fit, right, the detail oriented, you know, usually no sequel, right, working with data. So, so business analysts, on the business side, you know, finding those people that are currently working with the data, it's, it's funny, I, I started teaching, prepping people for CDMP and organizations that I was working for, and more than, like it was about 50-50 people who are not in IT, and people who are in IT, who are interested, who consider themselves to be data professionals. And, and so, you know, so kind of going around and sort of seeing what people are doing, not that that's currently their titles or whatever, but, but, but you know, what are they good at. And with technologists, like, what I try to teach to the, the people who work for me, right, and they quickly learn, this is what I'm looking for, when we're, when we're trying to do something, the first thing is, let's look at the data. Let's actually look at the data. Let's not assume that it looks like this. Let's actually look at the data. And I, and I find that, you know, when, when I can get the programmers to be looking like that, to, to look at the data, and, and then they themselves know to look at the data without me prompting them to do it. And when they become converts, let's say, to that approach, a lot of times they become very interested in a data management jobs and experience and moving in that direction. And, and, and, you know, a lot of technologists, like they have no interest in looking the data. It's like, look, I'm going to program this. And, you know, leave me alone. Right. So it's like, yeah, clearly, you're not, you're not moving in that direction. But, but yeah, so that's the way I, I've been sort of recruiting, trying to find those data people or, or build those data people. Nice. There's a comment in the chat there, you know, so true. And to actually look at data as a conversation, which is so important. Frank. Well, I guess with the more holistic IT experience I've had, I consider every role I've ever been in every role I've seen as a data management role. I mean, managing data to some degree, right? I mean, you're either creating the, the governance rules, right? Or you're executing the rules and execution of rules typically is done in an application. So those are your application developers, your DBAs, you know, putting in, you know, configuring the database in a certain way. And then adjudicating the, the violations to the rules, which are typically done by IT auditors. So, you know, basically, it's a, you know, looking at it from that perspective, you know, who isn't in a data management role. Now, you know, what we consider more traditional, you know, roles as data architect and, you know, MDM and, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah, I mean, that kind of, you know, focuses on specific aspects of that. But, you know, I think anybody in an IT role, if they really start to think about what they do for, you know, they realize they're managing data. And, and they're part of the whole, you know, equation. I actually wrote a presentation from my last organization called Why Everybody's Job is Data Management, pointing out what, you know, sales and marketing. Oh, my gosh, you know, they're totally about the data, right? Research, totally about the data. You know, operations, well, totally about the data. Finance, totally about the data, right? So everybody's doing data management. But you do find a lot of technologists who just really aren't interested in it. They really just want to, they just want to code. I guess some of us remember the days when we called it data processing. When the technologists don't want to do that, it's very disappointing because what I've discovered is they can be your most effective gatekeepers. When the, when they're understanding the data and looking at the data and something is wrong, they're probably the last place you're ever going to get told about it before somebody starts trying to use that data in a, in a way it's not going to work. Well, we, as we know, right? The earlier in the life cycle, you discover a problem, right? The, the, the less hard and cheaper it is to solve it. And when the, you know, when the programmers are saying, Hey, this data does not match the requirements you gave us, right? Or, you know, you can sit, just save a whole lot of time and cost and effort. Well, this has been such a great conversation, everybody. I can't believe we're out of time, but we are out of time. So thank you all so much for being part of the panel. 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