 Hi, everybody. Welcome back to this 10 books podcast. I'm Paul Ken Gore. I've got Steve Cunningham, who's the producer. And we have here today, Dr. Stacy Tresenko's and Father George Elliott. And they're talking about their new book, Behold It is I, Scripture, Tradition and Science in the Real Presence. And this is a fascinating book. It's just been done by 10 books. In fact, confession here, I don't even have a I don't have a hard copy yet. I got I got a PDF. And so it's normally as I've done these podcasts and the before people could watch and see, I hold the book and I've got it all marked up and I read from annotations. So I can't do that here today, but I've got the PDF in front of me, got a whole bunch of questions. This is such an important work. But let me just begin first by saying, Stacy, Father George, welcome. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Sure, sure. So we're going to start this while this this is this is a fascinating book. It's divided into three parts. First, what does the Bible say to what do the church fathers say? And then three, what does science say? So very much like the title says, Scripture, traditions, science and science and the real presence. I my own background to this and I think this might be similar to Stacy as well. I'm a convert. I'm a convert to Catholicism. I've talked about this on the show a number of times. I don't think I ever talked about this on the show and I probably will a little bit today, but I want to talk more about the book, rather than my own experience, one of the major reasons I came into the church was the real presence, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. And I think I've told the story before on one of these podcasts. This kind of moment of decision when I was trying to figure out what am I going to do? Am I going to convert my wife was ready to come into the church? We were in the Presbyterian Church USA Church PC USA and we were in the backyard and we got this note from our church and it was concerning our oldest son, our oldest child. And it said that it was time for him to start taking classes on receiving his first communion. And my wife, I can still remember this. She you know, she she held up this letter in the backyard and said, Okay, what do you want them to teach your son about the Eucharist? Right? And so that was kind of a line in the sand. And I said, All right, give me, I said a date, I got make a decision by this point. And I completely immersed myself in exactly this question of the real presence. And my pastor God bless him such a great guy. He tried to talk me out of it by giving me books, trying to debunk the church fathers and saying that Augustine believe it was just a symbol and not the real presence and so forth. All of which when I read that book only as I checked that book convinced me even more and more that the Roman Catholic Church was was right on this. So I got to point 2005 where I decided that's it I'm coming in came into the church. And so with that set up for my own personal story. I'll start with Stacy I guess and then Father George. Tell us about how you came to this question how you came to this topic and that does that's how you came to this book Stacy. Well, I came to this book kind of actually you would think that I would I would say that science brought me to this book but it's actually the other way around one of the biggest messages I tried to convey consistent with Father Stanley Yaki the priest and physicist whose work I study is your faith should never be dependent on science as wonderful as science is it is not where we draw our faith. Nature is creation creation is the handiwork of God we can look in creation and be inspired that God exists and be inspired at his handiwork but our face should never rest on science and so I actually was a little disappointed in some of the research with with the Eucharistic miracles and wanted a chance to look into those more and that whole question about what does science say about the Eucharistic miracles let us to write the last part of this book. The Father Elliott has the real proofs of the real presence in the Eucharist. Well, let me stop you right there and by the way I got to tell people watching this that Stacy is in a Mustang a 2020 Mustang and wearing sunglasses so she gets the award for looking the coolest of anybody whose who's ever done the show but but but on that point if I could just stop you right there Stacy I mean one thing that's really frustrated me you know as as somebody who's you know done graduate work and and I was in the hard sciences to I was actually a biochem biophysics major worked for the Oregon transplant team the University of Pittsburgh is a long story. My PhD isn't in that it's in political science but but like I'm doing a book right now for 10 books and another subject I'm going to talk about it today but but it involves it going through a lot of websites and it is so hard to pin down accurate data. There is so much junk out there you find yourself like screaming at the at the at the computer screen uncharably but berating the people who put together the website right you know for not spelling things correctly for not sourcing things where does this come from where does that come from where does this so you really have to do a lot of your own digging and fact-checking and putting together something like this. Yes and the way it started out I mean there's a whole story behind this book of course it really started out with Bishop Strickland asking me to do talks on the Eucharistic Miracles and I did those talks but I prefaced it with a hesitation I said I am just repeating stories and as a chemist I'm not comfortable just repeating other people's interpretation of the data and I I prayed about it I prayed dear God it really be nice if I could see that data and it turns out that the lead investigator for the Buenos Aires Miracles the Eucharistic Miracles actually walked up to Bishop Strickland outside of Sydney Australia when he was there visiting his family and handed him the data and he mailed it to me and said there you go Stacey careful what you pray for what I ended up with the data and so I really didn't have a choice but to look at it and and Father Elliott knows because he was with me all along the way it's not it's not good like the investigations weren't done as well as they could have been and and I started to have serious concerns about how much people are putting their faith in the real presence in the Eucharistic Miracles how much of those stories are repeated uncritically so the book might shake some people up when they read it because I didn't just repeat the stories. Good good okay well let's get back to that Father George let's let's tell us about your background how you came to this and and I should add that you both are in Bishop Strickland's diocese right is this a Tyler Texas correct and he wrote the forward to this book. He did exactly that's right yes so I myself grew up in the diocese of Tyler in Paris Texas I went to the Air Force Academy and actually while I was at the Air Force Academy. I realized I was kind of I was I was running away from God by going to the military they talked about duty and service and answering the call and all of this and so it was actually kind of the the formation at at the Air Force Academy that pushed me to actually answer the call to the priesthood and I entered the seminary as a diocesan seminarian for the diocese of Tyler and studied for three years at St. Charles Borneo in Philadelphia and I was sent to Rome and studied at the University of the Holy Cross in Rome that's Opus Dei University and then I went to the Augusta Augustinianum which is the the patristic Institute in Rome and I got my license from there. And so did anything happen over there made maybe I want to talk about the the Laciano miracle did you did you see things over there that are related to precisely this issue of Eucharistic miracles and so forth other than your academic training I suppose right. Absolutely yeah I had the really one of the kind of highlights of my time in Rome was that as a deacon I was able to go to Orvieto and participate in that beautiful Eucharistic procession that they have on the Feast of Corpus Christi and they they have deacons that well they have this this big platform that they carry the the corporal of the Eucharistic miracle in and then at the very top of this platform is a little monstrance with our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. So I was able to be one of the deacons that carried the the miracle in the Blessed Sacrament in that Eucharistic procession and so that was one of those times when I really I really fell in love with these Eucharistic miracles. So okay I guess this is jumping ahead a little bit but now though now the one at Orvieto so it's or VI ETO now that now that that is that the Laciano miracle it is not no so the Orvieto Bolsena miracle is is one and the corporal is in Orvieto but the the stone and the ultrasound that the blood fell onto is in Bolsena and happened in Bolsena and then the Laciano one was actually quite prior to that. I'll let actually Dr. Tresonco's is the one that can that's the first one right that we know of like around the year 750 AD. Yes, go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah, the Laciano miracle is is probably the most famous miracle that most people think about when they think of the Eucharistic miracles and it you know I looked into there's something called the Linole report. It is a full investigation done by a medical doctor back in the early 70s. Leonardo Edwardo Linole and he actually did such a thorough investigation. It was published in a scientific journal and and I had access to that. I found it in a book and translated and took a look at that and and he did a very pious devout investigation. But what we have to understand is when Linole came to doing his investigation of the the blood clots and the flesh that the host had turned into flesh and the blood had dried into five clots which is what you can see to this day. He came at it not asking the question. Can science prove this miracle happened? He came at the investigation this miracle happened. He capitalized body capitalized blood the miraculous body the miraculous blood. He assumed the miracle already happened and he did his investigation and and you know he found that the the tissue look like heart tissue and he blood types of blood and all of that and it was a very well done investigation for the early 70s. But you know it as a chemist speaking those investigations are not conclusive like the reason that they would never be absolutely conclusive in the kind of certainty we want from science that science can't give us on anything is there there's no chain of custody with these samples. Right there. It's impossible to get a chain of custody. The earliest time anybody starts writing about these miracles is like a quarter of a century later. So we have the samples. We just don't have any way to know all the way back whether the legend is actually true or not and the scientific data while it does look like it's really flesh and really blood it doesn't it doesn't really prove that it was a bread that turned into flesh or wine that turned into blood and even when I look carefully at his data there's some questions about the way the blood typing was done. There's some questions about the electrophoresis. I think a scientist today would look at that and say it's at best inconclusive. Okay, but but but still compelling nonetheless. If not if not completely conclusive. I think it's compelling if you are willing to believe the testimony of men. But one thing we say in the book is we should always be ready to believe in the testimony of Jesus Christ more than the testimony of men. And so the chain the chain of custody issue. So in other words, you don't know for sure if it if it's exactly what was allegedly there in 750 AD, right? Maybe maybe kind of like akin to the Shroud of Turin maybe, right? You don't know if it's it was actually there. If it can be dated to the year 33, right? Yeah, you can still look at and say, okay, it appears it's something happened here with this fabric or with this tissue that we're holding. But I can't say for sure that it comes from the year 750. Yeah, and it doesn't rule out other other that it's not other things like other primate blood or it doesn't rule out that someone didn't switch it and I'm not trying to prove that's the case. I'm not trying to prove that that's the case at all, but what I'm trying what more than anything, I want to put a damper on people's uncritical faith and science. I'm a chemist. I can say that I want to put a damper on it. There have been some things associated with that miracle that were found out not to be true. Like it is said in the first time they ever examined the blood clots, the five blood clots that each one of those pieces of blood dried blood weighed exactly the same as every other piece. So all five pieces exactly the same weight each and that when all five pieces were put on the scale, the five together had that same exact weight, which would indeed be miraculous. But what people leave out even in the international exhibition on the Eucharist that that the Vatican put together and travels around the world, it even still says in that book that each that same thing that each of the five blood clots weighs the same and all five together weigh the same. But what you find in the record even in the Linole report that was only found to be the case the very first time in all other verifications ever since for hundreds of years ever. The people measuring it have always known that's not true anymore that it that it's not repeatable. And yet even today I've been to teen conferences where that very myth is repeated and it's known it's known not to be the case. The other example is there said to be a who report from the World Health Organization in Geneva in New York where scientists were compelled after 500 tests to admit that science had come to its limits and that something miraculous occurred. That report turned out to be a fraud. A medical doctor went and looked at that report and it was it was a report on an Egyptian mummy with the front page replaced with the launch yanno miracle. And so we got to be careful about repeating those things because God forbid a young person hear that and then find out the truth and say what else are y'all lying about to get me to believe in you know that and that's why this is so critical. Okay then then with the kid that's the launch yanno one tell us about and I was going to start with Old Testament proofs and Malkisa that can so forth. I guess I'm working my way backwards but the can of the of the ones that you talk about in the book including bonus areas which which do you find the most compelling of all the alleged Eucharistic miracles or perhaps most conclusive as far as we can tell. I picked those three that the orvieto Bolsena and launch yanno because they're the three most popular and I find them all in conclusive. I mean there was no scientific investigation done with the orvieto miracle that in the historical accounts the historians say there are inconsistencies. The orvieto miracle was a legend that people talked about and we still celebrate like Father Elliott was saying but in the history that the two biographers of Pope Urban IV who who instituted the Feast of Corpus Christi they don't mention the miracle and he apparently instituted that feast the year after the miracle allegedly occurred and there's no mention of it. There's no mention of it in the liturgies that St. Thomas Aquinas wrote for the Feast of Corpus Christi and the historians question if if the miracle was the reason for the institution of this first universal feast in the whole church. It seems like somebody would have mentioned the miracle in all of that and it's not mentioned so there's that how many I actually have a book on this that's not within reach but how many authenticated or affirmed and I'm trying to find the right word church approved if there if there are such things you could Eucharistic miracles have have there been in the book the Vatican exhibition that that blessed Carlo Acutus put together and the real presence foundation passes around the world I forget the exact numbers I don't have it in front of me but there's something like a hundred and forty something miracles okay and they absolutely any of them could be true God can work a miracle anytime anyway we absolutely have to believe that it's the only logical conclusion faith in a creator will lead to but I think what I think should happen is that there should be better investigations conducted of these miracles and mostly the message that Father Elliott and I wanted to convey we didn't expect to come out in this place because I didn't expect the investigations to be done so poorly is regardless of science we need to all really ask ourselves do we need science to prove what we ought to hold in faith like can we genuinely just believe in the word of Christ and Father Elliott has all this beautiful tradition from scratch scripture and the church fathers that I will be the first person as a woman of faith who's also a chemist to say that's where the certainty exists yeah well Father Father Elliott let's let's go to that so you you we you actually start the book with part one what does the Bible say and then part two what do the church fathers say and part so part one what does the Bible say even before I got to that section I was already drawn up my questions for you and Stacy and I had written down that John 6 the bread of life narrative right and then I saw in the book that you open up by saying okay everybody goes to the bread of life narrative right Catholics do but but that doesn't work for Protestants right you know they they don't believe that by the way I would stop and say right there I think a lot of Protestants including me where I was once you see that and you really start reading that and you really start picking apart picking apart you're immediately uncomfortable right I mean you you read that slowly and go back through it and it's hard not to be convinced that he's talking about the real presence there but but even before that in John 6 so you start with the Old Testament right what what can we take from the Old Testament even before we get to the New Testament as types or typology if you if you will for for the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist that's right yeah you know the reason why I think it's important to start with the Old Testament is because the Eucharist is a big claim you know that something that looks like bread and wine is actually the body blood of Jesus Christ is is a really big claim and so for Protestants where you know you may be able to sit them down at you know the the institution narratives and John chapter 6 and say hey look this is clearly what these passengers are talking about there's this kind of hesitancy within them where they say you know how is it that something of this important just pops up in the Gospels out of nowhere you know the idea of the people of God that's been laid out from the very beginning the idea of you know the sacrifice that's been laid out from the beginning that the idea of a Messiah that's been laid out laid out from the beginning how is it that out of nowhere we get something this big and so what that means is that we actually just haven't done the work of really showing them how the Eucharist has been laid out from the beginning and so that's kind of the purpose of this this first chapter to look at the Old Testament and say where where has the Eucharist been prefigured where where have we seen some signs of the Eucharist throughout the old well okay and and you and you say on page 18 and this is Exodus section 12 and here you talk about the Passover lamb the Passover and you know I'll just I'll read from this the this is page let's see page 17 to understand what it means that Jesus is the new lamb of God we have to understand the old lamb of God the Passover lamb and by the way I tell you when forget about when I was a Protestant became Catholic when I was an agnostic and the first time that I under read all of this from Hebrews in particular and and saw the connection between the Old Testament the New Testament this floored me and this immediately finally made made the New Testament in Christianity it made sense to me when I read this the Passover was the sacrifice that God commanded the Israelites to offer before he would lead them out of Egypt God had sent nine plagues upon Egypt the Israelites had to suffer the nine plagues with the Egyptians but the 10th and last plague was too awful for God to allow the Israelites to suffer and that was the death of the first born right the first born after being slaughtered the blood of the Passover lamb was sprinkled on the house doorsteps and later consumed now stop right there rethink what I just said and apply that to Jesus all right but we're not a Jesus yet we're at the Old Testament this was the outward sign that prevented the first born from losing his life and then then you quote this and how they roasted the lamb and how they ate the lamb right page 18 from this passage we can draw out three points that are important for our study one the Passover lamb was to be unblemished right that that's that's Jesus to the Passover lamb was killed and eaten on the same day all that Father George explain that one three the Passover was to be a Memorial Day every year and was to be a sacrifice offered forever since the Passover lamb was a liturgical celebration offered every year the right slowly developed over time to explain and expand with the nucleus text and Exodus commanded Father George I'll I'll let I'll let you pick that up right yeah and so you know those those three points obviously the Passover lamb was to be unblemished we actually see that coming up all the way at the at the crucifixion you know it's all the two robbers of the two thieves they have bones broken but Christ himself doesn't have any bones broken he's you know stabbed with a lens and that's an Isaiah prophecy right then the not not a not a limb will be broken not a bone will be broken exactly and so the the idea of the unblemished lamb was yeah it was a kind of external unblemished nest no no spot and of course that's interpreted as no sin within Jesus Christ and yet also it meant that that animal could never have had any broken bones which I didn't get way into this in the book but the fascinating thing is that oftentimes when animals broke bones it was because they had essentially strayed from the flock if the flock stayed right there in the middle of the pasture they weren't going to break any bones it was when they they kind of went off the path and got off by themselves then you know they would be attacked by animals that they would they would stumble over a you know in a crack or something of that sort and even you know the image of the the good shepherd we always see the good shepherd has the lamb on his shoulders what the good shepherd would do when a lamb wandered from the flock was actually break the back leg of the lamb to associate with being away from the flock the pain of that broken leg so essentially it was kind of a training of to the animal of saying hey look you stick with the flock you don't get hurt you go away from the flock you do get hurt and then of course the shepherd would then have to pick up the lamb put him on his shoulders to carry him back because the poor lambs leg had been broken and it was a kind of way that you know showed that that the good shepherd sometimes allowed some suffering in the lives of the lamb to actually help the lamb to grow but anyway so this idea of Jesus being unblemished also meant that he never strayed from the flock never strayed from the people of God wow said now that I had not thought of and so he and he's the ultimate firstborn he's the ultimate unblemished he's what John the Baptist calls the lamb of God right this this this this is God's lamb and that point on the crucifixion yet the the Roman soldiers when when the person was presumed to be dead on the cross right when when they took him down to test whether or not the person was dead they they broke the leg right they broke a part of the body and in this unique case they didn't right in this one unique case they did not exactly yeah for knowledge of God playing out there and really the here the Providence of God excellent go ahead well and so and so the to mark the the fight from Egypt explain the sprinkling of the blood over the doorstep that's right so the Passover lamb would be killed the essentially the night before or the night of Passover and with the blood of the lamb they were to mark the doorposts and the lintel of the door with the blood of the lamb and in Exodus it says that you know that the angel of death will it will pass over the homes when he sees the the blood of the lamb on the doorposts and so you can think of that real close connection also with Jesus Christ in the cross that you know okay there are two vertical posts there's a vertical post and then the lintel the horizontal post of wood right around the door and it was the the blood of the lamb of God as he said John John the Baptist pointing to Jesus Christ and saying behold the Lamb of God and it's it's the blood that was poured forth on the cross that we who have been integrated into the cross by baptism and then you know if we've lost that grace of baptism we can renew that through the sacrament of confession it's when in a sense we are hidden within the cross through those that we as well are able to to make it through the the night our own death and enter into eternal life so so those Jews were spared by the blood of the lamb right by this ritualistic sacrifice every year there was to be done every year but but but now we believe as Christians right that that perpetual sacrifice was accomplished by the blood of the one and only first born on blemish lamb the lamb of God Jesus Christ absolutely you said it better than I could yeah well for me as an agnostic I just I thought I thought now I get it now I get it I really had to read Hebrews and some other things to get that tell us who Malchizedek was and and and we mentioned Malchizedek or not me but the priest right in every mass that's right yeah Malchizedek is such an interesting character he appears in the Abraham cycle so you know when Abraham is live you see in Genesis 14 Melchizedek appears and offers sacrifice on behalf of Abraham and specifically Melchizedek offers sacrifice of bread and wine what's really neat is that that he blesses Abraham and and then Abraham ties to Melchizedek and so in the logic of Jewish priesthood the person that would offer the sacrifice was the highest of the priests there and you would tie to a higher priest but of course you know in within Abraham you have all of the tribes of Israel and so even the Levi priesthood the Aaronic priesthood that high priesthood of the Jewish people in a certain sense still asked this other a higher priesthood the priesthood of Melchizedek to offer sacrifice for them and to and they then tithed to Melchizedek and see you see first off right Melchizedek is this this higher priest than any of the Jewish priests also he's referred to as you know the king who has a priesthood that is eternal or an unending priesthood so he's the only priest king and all of the Old Testament right and until you come to and by the way Abraham is the common father of Jews Arabs and Christians right Arabs and you know and Muslims or most Arabs are Muslim so Arab is the common forefather right so of all things so Abraham and Abraham's name is changed from Abraham to Abram right father of many to father Abram to Abraham but but but Melchizedek yes so and you say in the institution of the Eucharist right that Jesus Christ in the order of Melchizedek right so that's the order that that he's in the priest priestly king order correct exactly so all right by the way I'm watching the clock here I know people are going to be disappointed we have to we have to wrap up in about 10 minutes everyone's watching this saying what you've just started this is good stuff but let me hit a couple of other things here and Stacy sorry to cut you off there anytime you want to you want to jump back in chime in the okay what about the bread of discourse narrative in John 6 in the in the in the New Testament and this is I've got it in front of me so I'll get you guys I'll get to if you started John 641 the Jews then murmured him because he said I am the bread which came down from heaven they said is this not Jesus the son of Joseph whose father and mother we know how does he say I have come down from heaven and then they go back and forth on that truly truly I say to you who believes has eternal life I am the living bread which came down from heaven if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh and I know a lot of times because I was a Protestant they'll say why is talking here metaphorically Jesus also calls himself the gates right he doesn't actually mean that he's a gate yeah I know but he doesn't he doesn't say it like this okay hold on Jews 650 Jesus John 652 the Jews then disputed among themselves saying how can this man give us his flash to eat so Jesus said to them he didn't say Father George well wait a second I'm speaking metaphorically right I might actually say about giving you my flesh to you no Jesus said truly truly I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood you have no life in you he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life I will raise him on the last day then John 655 for my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed and by the way harkening back to the Old Testament they ate the lamb right they ate it they ate the lamb it wasn't they actually ate it he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I and him this is the bread which came down from heaven and then and then many of his disciples when they heard this this is a hard saying you can listen to it Jesus knowing those disciples were murmuring said to them do you take offense to this so they argue back and forth on this and then he said and this is John 666 after this many of his disciples drew back and no longer walked with him Jesus said to the 12 will you also go away Simon Peter answered Lord to whom shall we go you have the words of eternal life so by the way at that point Jesus could have said you know wait wait where are you going I'm talking metaphorically remember how I described myself as like a gate on a hinge that's I'm just saying that here with the bread I'm not actually saying I'm the bread don't get all worked up now he doubles down and triples down right and says are you going to go to right so sorry about my extended commentary there anything you could add to that please please do No, I think you did a really great job there just to to emphasize kind of the escalating nature of what happens you quoted it there and John 641 it says the Jews then murmured at him and then you know he kind of responds and he says no you guys are getting it I met what I said then John 652 the Jews then disputed among themselves saying how can this man give us give us his flesh to eat and then he he says it even stronger he says truly truly I say to you right that truly truly amen amen truly truly is kind of it's the it's almost Jesus parlance for hey guys pay attention what I'm saying is important right and he says it I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you whoa he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day you know I can't think of another stronger way that Jesus would say that his flesh is true food and his blood is true drink yeah you should not you shall not have life within you right I mean this is really you I'm not saying to go there but for for non-Catholics right think about that if if what Catholics are saying here about this is correct right then in a way you've really you've really got to have the sacrament of the Eucharist which is which is of course not to say that you can't be a Christian and follower do we we're not saying that but as one of the reasons why Catholics say that you really need the sacraments of the church and full communion with the church to be like cut to really quite literally right receive what Christ can offer yeah that's right now and and science will never say truly truly you know science is not going to give you that kind of certainty and and I think that's the beauty of where a person who reads this book will come out like it's a gift that father Elliott lays out the arguments from scripture and tradition and in a time when most people are tend to think that science has all the answers and scripture and tradition that's the old stuff it's so refreshing to to have all of that laid out and science in its place at the end nobody loves chemistry more than I do you won't find someone that does but but I love the fullness of the truth that our Catholic faith brings us that that we have all of these words of Christ and we have confidence and certainty in what he said and we have confidence that God could work a miracle anytime and it ought to make us less dependent on meeting the miracles to be true and open to all the miracles that happen in our daily life just like the fact that we even came together to write this book we very much felt the providence of God in being led to do this I don't think we either one we're really wanting to do it at first and here we are so well I I think this is I think this is providential then how this interview came together because I was going to start with part one but to start with part three and so Stacy this brings is really full circle then to your main point which is even if the three miracles that you looked at you can't say definitively you know in the year in the 21st century couple decades in the 21st century that science can necessarily prove this or that but after you go through the book part one and part two you see it historically you see it theologically we even talk about like Ignatius of Antioch and so forth who actually knew John right of all things actually knew St. John and believed it was the real presence but but but in a way you don't have to have science today prove something that allegedly happened in the year 750 right that that's that's not what we what we need right now and we don't even need to look to look to do that I get that's a theme that you're that you're saying here yes and it's a theme that I learned from father Stanley Yaki and I understand that it can be kind of controversial and I want people to understand I'm not at all saying these miracles didn't happen I'm saying that the science is pretty wimpy and what it can tell us and and we can both believe the miracles happened but we should we should never put our faith on trial with science we end up with the book don't put your faith on trial some of these investigations probably wouldn't hold up very well in a in a court of law anyway that that's how much we could improve on how we do these investigations and I've already gotten people calling saying well let's do the investigations the right way I don't think I'm going to go down that path in my life in my life but yeah because I have other things I'm working on but yeah I mean we could do a better job of the investigations for something that happened in 750 right yeah perfectly captured and preserved at the time but now or even something that's happened in the last 20 years right where you saw actual alleged bleeding of of a host or something I mean this is where it's now time to grab it and do it right get out video cameras get the scientific experts and so if I could encourage the two of you you need to do a sequel to this book you look look at some of the the other cases that are allegedly or reportedly out there today because there's a bunch of those no yeah yeah there are other ones and I say that at the end of the book you know like what would it take I don't spell it all out but I I allude to it what would it take to come up with a universal process whenever there is a miracle that happened don't leave it up to individual dioceses to we could publish a protocol for investigating Eucharistic miracles and and that might help going forward will will the church actually do that I I don't know I don't know if it's worth it because there's always going to be so many questions that can be asked but for sure what I would hope is that we we take more caution in how we repeat these stories of the miracles and maybe if we're going to express our on wonder to people who are thinking about let's point the on wonder to Jesus Christ before we point it to science yeah by the way so the same is true not just for Eucharistic miracles but miracles generally right like nobody right now can prove that you know physically or through science the miracle the sun on October 13th 19 right right and we have 70,000 witnesses right allegedly but but you know what there were no video cameras there or anything like that so this is true of a lot of these different things yeah so well look we we got to stop it there but Dr. Stacey Trisankos and Father George Elliott the book if you could put it up there Steve on the screen behold it is I scripture tradition and science and the real presence available through 10 books and this is this is a book that you got to get you got to get your hands on it so thank you very much for joining us thank you thank you Steve and can you tell me do either you have a a website or anywhere we could go follow you St. Philip Institute dot org Bishop Strickland's Institute for teaching the faith good Catholic dash link dot org is a good place to check out as well okay good Steve will put those up on the screen and thanks again both of you for all that you do Father George in the spirit of the Order of Melchizedek right here carry carry on alright thanks so much and everybody thanks for joining us again this week and we'll talk to you again soon bye bye