 Are you a farmer, my friend? Don't. Do not start filming me. What is it about? Tell him to switch that off now. No, I'm not. You're getting a bit aggressive there. I think you need to calm down a bit. All right, all right, all right. Do you want to have a discussion? You need to calm down. Like, the way I see death is like, I don't see death as a sad thing. Okay. And like, with anyone, humans or not. So murder is not bad in your eyes? Um, well, obviously, but then that's... Okay, yeah, no. Do you think happy animals want to live more? That's all right. This chair, this is ready. We know if no one sits down, then everyone agrees. Do you want to have a discussion, mate? Don't agree? Are you a farmer? You are. He didn't give me the best look there, though. Debate time, mate. Come on. You're thinking about it. You want to wreck me in a debate. Come on. Come on. It's life. It's life? It's death. Suffering murder and death. You're on candid camera. I don't mind about that camera. Hi, everybody. I've just... I've followed you for a long time. Oh, really? Yeah. What's your name? Bert. So you went vegan before you've seen my videos? Yeah, yeah, yeah. About two and a half years ago, and probably about a year ago, I started watching them. Go. And I've like, I've tried to talk to my friends a lot about it as well. A lot of them get the message. Do you have any non-vegan friends? Yeah. You're looking over there. Where are they? You! Why isn't she vegan yet? I don't know. She says she agrees with all the principles, but... She hasn't made the... taken the time to make the change. Do you want to come over? She loves animals. You want to get grilled? Like a piece of tofu? The thing is, I do actually completely agree with the vegan ways. But like, I just find it hard because where my family come... it's like hard for me to take that action to become it. But I am like, slowly day by day, like getting closer to like, getting there. So you live with family and they're not vegan. It's going to be difficult for you. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So it's more of a, like you agree with the philosophy. Yeah, definitely. You don't want what happens to animals to happen to animals. Yeah. You couldn't kill an animal yourself. You couldn't torture them. I mean, I probably could kill an animal. Yeah. But like, in the way of like, if it was suffering, I'd like... If you had to. Or like, if it was to do with survival and I was doing it, like, if I was somewhere in a desert island and that was... There was no choice. Yeah, then I would be... I would be... You couldn't just kill them for a sandwich right now even though it's a vegan place. Yeah, exactly. That's what I think. I think it's like, if we're doing it for our own benefit and like, we have options that we can, like, we can use, then we shouldn't be doing it. We should take the less torturous, violent route. Yeah, definitely. Like, it's not, it's not worth all the suffering of animals. Yeah. So... Yeah, I agree with you. So basically, practical issue only for you. Yeah, definitely. Principally agree, support animal rights. Yeah, me and Bert have had like, multiple conversations and he just gets really frustrated with me because he, like, he says everything and I'm like, yeah, I completely agree. I'm just, to be honest, if I'm being honest, I'm just a bit lazy and it's like, harder for me than other people to become vegan. So let me ask you this, if your family were buying their dogs from, tortured, buying their meat from the Eulen dog meat festival, all those dogs were tortured in a horrible way and they're putting all that dog meat on the table. Would you boycott that meal? Would you say, I'm not eating that? I think it, that's a difficult question because I think my family do make an effort to make sure that they're like coming from the most sustainably sourced area. But again, like, it's hard to compare like one, like, it's all meat. So I guess, yes. So you would still eat it if the dogs were on the table? I think so. Yeah, but I have chickens. Okay. So you would still eat the meat if the, like at your family's house if it was dog meat? If I was respect, yeah, like to respect my family. What if it was human meat? That's different, but like then that's the story of like, actually like... If your family were murdering people, this is just a hypothetical, obviously they aren't. Just, this is a hypothetical. And the point of hypotheticals is just to see where your moral sort of framework goes to. So like, your family are murdering people. It's obviously against the law. They're putting those, just say you wouldn't get caught for this though. So you could actually eat that meat. There's human baby. There's a bit of Joanne from down the street there, chopped up into pieces. They're cooking it up for you. Would you boycott that meal? Would you say, I'm not eating that? Yeah. Yeah, I would. Okay. So it's not actually your family circumstance. That's the problem here. It's the fact that you care enough. Yeah. I guess you could say that. I mean like, I guess, I think the thing is, You care enough in the human context though. We could just get that out of the way. But I, like I do, I think like, yeah, I guess. Let's say that human meat tastes exactly like pork and chicken and whatever animals you eat. Really cooked really well. But you knew that someone was just murdered for that and something about it would just like turn you off of it. So, I think it's to do with like, the sort of like, the way that you've been like, like we've been brought up to think certain meats are dirty and other meats are fine to eat. So it's like, it's actually to do with like sort of the, the brainwashing that we've gone through. So obviously I've like been brought up to think that like, human meat is dirty and we shouldn't eat it and it's unethical. Whereas like, we've been brought up in a society where like, animal meat isn't like unethical and dirty. Or like, especially like, herbivore meat. Whereas like, so it's more like, the problem lies in the education of people and like. So yeah, I only want to know about you, not anyone else. I just want to know about the way you view people and animals. So I want to know why you think it's, why you wouldn't like just go look, I'm not eating that, I want vegan food in, because you do have that power. I believe you do. I believe if your family may put some heroin on the table and you don't want to take it, I'm not taking it. I'm just taking it. But do you think you want to like push over just because your family is doing something? Yeah. Like think of something that you're principally morally against, like that makes you angry. If your family was doing that, right, you wouldn't just start participating in it, would you? Like if it's, like I think of whatever philosophy it is, Yeah, I think there is like I have my own free will. But I think it's more, it's more, I like don't want to, I think it's not about like I'm just things that my family do that I don't necessarily agree with and I don't participate with like I'm not like so many things but I think it's a matter of I've been brought up to think eating meat is okay and I don't want to be a nuisance to them by like saying no I don't think the animals lives are worth a little bit of nuisance to your family I mean I do that's where you said if you if there was a scale right animals being tortured and killed because I tell you right now where are you there sourcing their meat from I want to talk about the slaughterhouse not the farm so slaughterhouse is all torture and kill the animals in there okay so the scale is animals being tortured and killed a little bit of nuisance to your family that outweighs these animals being tortured and killed and you actually eat them animals but you don't want to cause a little bit of nuisance to your family actually can I say this you don't want to cause a little bit of nuisance to your family but you will cause this killing suffering and cruelty to these animals so you can eat their bodies yeah if you put it like that yeah I do that's the scale a little bit of nuisance no and like I like I say like I am like every day like I'm getting it like I I've got there with the like I believe in it and now I need to put it into practice and it's just taking that like step to put it into practice you know I would say this because I've been vegan now for eight years I actually don't believe think you believe in it do you not I mean I believe in some of it I think in in some abstract way like but not you don't actually believe in it because if you believed in it you would boycott it immediately yeah I guess I know what you mean in your mind you're like actually that makes sense but you don't actually believe in it yeah and I would say but then then again I would say that that's that's like because I've been like brought up in a society where it's completely normal and like it's the dumb thing to eat me it's like it's like cognitive dissonance it's like you you have a belief that animals should matter morally but your actions are contradicting that that so you haven't aligned those two things yeah not your actions are still contradicting what you believe maybe yeah they don't so it's called cognitive dissonance it's like because people's you know conditioning from society overrides their action kind of thing and when those two things aren't in like harmony you have cognitive dissonance it's like but you know like really you could make a decision whenever you want but basically to just go right from this point onwards I'm going to live consistent with my beliefs yeah and I think I think but I do think like the one thing I think is like it it's not as easy as like for some people it's not as easy as it is for other people and for me it's not as easy as it would be but I am I am making my way to like putting them together you know you're that you're responsible for these animals being killed on your behalf yeah I know yeah and I think the one thing that I like like the first step that I ever took you know one sec I just want to see what this goes can we hold this because I think he's a fun are you a farmer my friend don't do not do not start filming me what is it about tell him to switch that off now well yeah okay just stop filming that's alright what's up what's going on really well we got here all farmers mistreat do not tar everybody with the same brush why not do not why not you are judging people and I'm sorry are you a farmer no I'm not getting a bit aggressive there I think you need to calm down a bit if you want to have a discussion you need to calm down all right but I'm saying all farmers you don't even know what I mean by mistreat you need to calm down if you want to miss treat so what do you know why don't you just ask me what do you mean by mistreat I'm saying that the the animals are considered property the farmer can do whatever they want to them they send them to a slaughter house to be chopped up into pieces I'm saying that that's the mistreatment all farmers do that don't have a response you don't ever response exactly they're never response so this is correct nothing better now that's not an answer that's not an answer do you have a response to this you need to get a life that's you're changing the subject you're running you're changing the subject you're changing the subject you can't you can't debate this because I'm right chopping animals up is mistreatment you can't debate it it's fine we've we've eaten meat for thousands of years doesn't matter we've raped each other for thousands of years should we keep doing it should we keep doing it we killed each other for thousands of years it doesn't matter get a life get a life stop killing animals thank you for waiting around so basically the decision what we got to the decision didn't we yeah yeah and so so I honestly think what with me personally because I used to be actually way worse than you I was violent to people I was in gangs I was violent to animals you're actually violent I don't think that you're like that you're just like eating animals and part of you know so you're really just you're actually a step removed from the process but I still I still made that change because you know I had this feeling inside of me was like I hated being a hypocrite and I don't know if you ever feel that way yeah no I do I do like I do think like and I think one thing that like I hold myself to is that like when I'm eating me I like I like this I know you're gonna disagree with this but like like I think my first step was like completely like acknowledging what I was actually eating and not like seeing as like a sausage like saying is like knowing the process behind it and like understanding the sacrifice that I had to get into that meal and then like it's eventually has like I'm eventually catching up where like I'm like ready to start making the steps to like actually following my beliefs have you seen footage yeah what what footage have you seen have you shown a footage what animals do you eat? Pigs? Do you eat pigs? Yes Honestly this is gas chambers so they prod them into these and these are all around the world UK Australia Austria you're all around Europe Germany they prod them into these cages and they lower them down into CO2 gas yeah and they try to escape yeah irritating you know what CO2 gas feels like um you have a can of coke but I can imagine like you have a burp to can of coke goes in your nose yeah that's CO2 burns you and terrifying for them yeah they gasp for breath scream the screams of terror coming out of these places is horrible there's one of these in Manchester so that's you look you look at 86% of the pigs in the UK are killing these places and then you know they're stabbed and processed and you know terrible and I don't know where you're getting pigs from but most pigs are factory farmed here over 90% yeah no um like I they're not from like I don't eat any meat from factory farms I'm like so if you're out you don't eat meat basically I try not to so you do when you say you do eat meat from factory like I make sure that it's like it's responsible you don't because if you're eating out here you cannot make sure of that I guess so yeah yeah so unless you just eat from this farm where you go I know that farm I go to the slaughterhouse I watch them be killed you actually don't know what happens down the line you're following probably a sticker I mean like the meat that we eat in our family we have done we have followed that process like we we're like in contact with the farmer we've seen the farm we've gone like we've followed that process so what so you get pork from there pork beef and lamb and lambs on there so you don't eat chickens oh no I um I've actually stopped eating chickens because I like I have chickens on my own and so you don't eat chicken at all now so you haven't eaten chicken for ages yeah for a while so you basically won't so you don't eat milk or cheese or anything like that I do eat I do you don't eat eggs from the backyard only only from my backyard so you basically we only eat these three bits of types of meat from these animals at this farm only at home yeah when you're at home that's all you eat yeah okay okay and so you don't eat any packaged processed hams or anything like that okay not that I'm aware of but also I'm not in charge I mean I can believe you for the sake of this argument because I actually don't because I think like you might eat burgers when you're out or you might eat food when you're out and that's you have no control over where that comes from but like we can we can just say let's just say that's true for the sake of argument do you have have you ever seen them be slaughtered these animals not personally but my my family have yeah yeah so why don't you actually check out how they slaughtered when they went for the trip I was like five so how old are you now 18 so it's 13 years ago that they seen the animals be slaughtered some old slaughterhouse yeah so they haven't actually seen the animals be slaughtered for that long like no I still buying from the same farm for the last 13 years yeah that is the most unique thing I've ever heard I know it's quite weird but we like I know you probably don't actually believe me that we do but like we do because I just don't believe that's all the meat you eat that's the only meat you eat that's all that's the only part about I don't believe I like um the only means I can think of that we don't eat from that farm is haggars so you don't get take away ever you never get take away basically I mean I always get I try and get you never get take away basically you've never eaten take away no 13 years I have but not recently so what do you mean by recently like past year the past year you've never eaten take away I have but like I go vegetarian if I try the only time is at the pub when I eat so you know about the dairy industry hey yeah I do they torture those cows yeah I know they steal their kids kill their kids they they send them onto the slaughterhouse to be murdered yeah it's a horrible industry yeah okay so if you're eating cheese from take away places you're supporting that same horrible cruelty I know so what I think is like in your mind right I'm trying to figure out what's going on in your head here because you're you're going what you're doing is you're going my family support this farm that's all the meat I ever eat because you actually sitting having a discussion about ethics so your mind goes there but there's all these other examples of food of animal products that are coming from horrible places I know that like the sort of industry within like the dairy industry and and like I'm if I'm being like completely honest I'm just like being quite lazy yeah I get it a better argument yeah because it the other argument is I don't actually believe you because we actually yeah the other other argument I don't believe you because there's so many things that you're probably overseeing right now yeah but I think it's like the argument that you only ever eat meat from this farm I don't believe that yeah yeah so that's one thing I think because everyone says that but you there's no way of getting you know how hard it is for an activist to find traceability of food like and we investigators trying to find out who supplies this slaughterhouse you know how hard that is to find traceability they're supposed to it's supposed to be public access but I don't know how you who's not an investigator are getting this information of where all your products are coming from the farms that the treatment of the animals at the farms and the slaughterhouses they go to that is just an impossible task you know I mean like this is like the farm that we get our meat from is like a very small farm so it's like it's not like a mass like it's like we can only buy a certain amount of meat per year because they he only produces a certain amount but I do like I do I think there's obviously like there's naivety within my my like well like I'm not I'm not an idiot like I know I'm being naive and like I'm being naive simply for like the ease of it yeah but like I'm slowly like you want to like a easy way out like kind of thing a because making this change is a little bit more difficult than to say you know I got this you made me like I'm trying I don't think it's humane I think it's just more less torture more ethical because that like the way their life I think I think all like it's almost like you're saying mistreatment of like slaughtering animals is mistreatment of animals slaughtering for your own gain but like it's like I try and ask your question yeah of course do you think happy animals want to live more yeah no I mean I don't think they really have them like they don't really have a like you don't think a happy animal wants to live more I don't think they really have a knowledge okay does a happy person want to live more than a severely depressed morbidly depressed person okay so it's easier to put it in the human context yeah you don't think I don't generally think that like animals have the conscious of like that humans do okay so you don't think animals can feel emotions I think they can but it's like very simplistic emotions what do you mean emotions are emotions how they become simplistic well they come become simplistic when they when the animal doesn't have like the knowledge of life and like I think they have an innate knowledge of life but it's not as complex as our knowledge of life and death but like let's just say I put an animal in a tiny tiny cage and they couldn't move for five weeks what do you think that animal feels well yeah there's obviously like it's going to be depressed but really sad yeah okay and if I give if I take a pig to a sanctuary where they've got hay and other pigs to play with and all the fruit they can eat and then it's loving life getting like vegan donuts and that like just being treated amazingly which one wants to live more see like this is where like I find it hard because I don't really think they have like they don't think in that sort of way of like I want to live I want to die okay because I don't think they really have that knowledge okay in okay from your position from you what animal do you think has more of an interest in in continuing to live okay yeah the one that's happy okay so okay that's why I wanted to get to yeah so basically the farm that that you get your animals from only kill you get the family you get your meat from sorry only kill happy animals yeah so they have more of an interest in living I guess you could put it like that but again like I don't necessarily think they have the knowledge of like I want to live or I want to die okay they don't need knowledge of I want to live I want to die that you they just need the feeling of I'm enjoying this experience yeah I see what you mean I don't like I don't disagree with you need to be a scientist yeah you don't need to know that how the universe was created to know that you want to live yeah of course yeah yeah that's all I'm just getting really simplistic here like yeah yeah so you only get meat from animals that wanted to live yeah I never really thought about to like that but yeah there's more of an injustice to kill let's just say you have everything going for you got a university you've just saved up enough money about to move out of house you're very intelligent talented I come up and shoot you in the face and kill you and I'm like well she was happy she had everything going for her like you know what like it's actually fine like I only kill happy humans with everything going for them yeah quite an injustice to the world to take that like you know it's like I mean I feel like it's kind of more of an injustice to kill I mean okay put it like this when you put animals in factory farms you're causing them suffering you're torturing them right okay I think that's wrong but when you kill them it's an escape for them yeah I still think that that's wrong because you created that whole system but when you have happy animals you're creating this environment for them to be super happy right best best treatment you can think of yeah then you come up and shoot them the injustice is robbing their experience from them that's why murder is so bad yeah I do I like I've never really thought about in that way but like that does make sense I do see what you're saying but I still do think it's more humane to make like it's a more humane way of farming but I'd like obviously do see like there's obviously injustice it's no question that the treatment while they're alive is better like that's easy to work out yeah but the injustice is worse when you kill them you're robbing more of a great when you take someone's happy experience from them to take that out of the moral universe it's like they're experiencing all of this well-being and the reason morality even matters is because of well-being versus suffering so if you're experiencing all this well-being as an animal and someone comes along and shoots them in the head you've just robbed all that well-being out of the moral universe it's like it's a it's a catastrophe and you come along girl you know what they lived a happy life and I'm just gonna I'll just eat that yeah I mean but then again like I think that's where like I differ like because like I do think like like the way I see death is like I don't see death as a sad thing okay and like with anyone humans or not so murder is not bad in your eyes um well obviously but then that's okay yeah no I see where like my I could just go murder someone it's like death ain't bad don't worry about it you don't feel anything anyway yeah I see there's a reason why murder is so bad trust me there's a reason for that and if you don't think murder is bad then basically no one has any sovereignty over their own life anymore there's a reason that we're protected with rights because I could just go you know what I think I don't even know if they're sentient actually I can't prove their sentient I don't even know if they're enjoying their life you know what bang bang bang bang bang you're better off there's reason we have rights protecting us because anyone could have some weird philosophical view on life and just go you're not gonna feel it anyway bang bang go on a mass shooting so you're dictating what these animals shouldn't shouldn't feel whether they should live or not death ain't bad it's fine for them but for you and us it's a different story isn't it like you wouldn't apply these philosophies to human beings that we do to animals that you do to animals no I guess not yeah yeah it's interesting to find out those inconsistencies you know I'm not saying we're exactly the same as animals but there are things that bind us together like we have a brain eyes we feel emotion animals are intelligent maybe not as intelligent as us I pretty find some chickens that are more intelligent than some humans but you know I'm just saying that they have enough moral worth that they deserve not to be tortured and killed if you believe they should be treated kindly you believe that they this there's someone there that that deserves a good experience yeah yeah in their life but you should also then biological extension believe that it's wrong to rob their experience from them without their consent yeah and I never disagree like I like I like obviously like you've questioned a lot of like my thought processes and like I do like I'm seeing where you're coming from now of course but at the same time I think it's hard because it's hard like to like compare I don't know why I'm saying actually I've lost my point train of thought it's fine it's fine it's hard to compare animals to humans I think what when you do that like for me it helps a lot because we have one rule for and I'm not saying all rules should be equal but we should have I work in this piglet get a driving license in this piglet and roll into Oxford unit of course like obviously they're animals that they have different needs and to us but I still think like basic fundamentals they yeah like especially because they feel pain want to live they experience suffering they they want to be with their families they don't want to be tortured like these things here they should have rights protecting them like we do you know so people like can't come along and say you know what I think it's okay to kill them as long as they had a good life but they didn't choose that we were choosing for them but Jennifer said you know you guys can you know you're allowed to live for another four weeks as long as you have a good life and I think it's fine to kill you then because you've experienced all this well-being so right death ain't bad you know yeah but we're not you're making decisions for all those individuals when you do that yeah of course yeah yeah which is wrong I think it's wrong yeah no I should have asked you do you think that's wrong when someone else can make a decision whether or not someone else lives or dies because that's happened in history like in big wars and that someone would go the Jew dies Christian lives white man lives black person dies you know it's bad when people have the power to do that yeah no and I like I do completely I've just never compared I think the difference between you miss I've never really compared animals and humans because I've always seen them separate things but like of course why well let's ask that why why do you see us as separate such the way I've been brought up yeah but what so I mean what were you taught then what were you taught well that like animals had different rights to humans like we just don't have any rights well yeah like that's what I mean but like I suppose like that that comes into question like of like how much an individual is like responsible for their beliefs because we are brainwashed as a society and like it takes a lot of effort to like undo that undo that like for example actually I'm not going to say that example because I feel like everyone's going to be like that's really wrong example but like okay well if it's is it something offensive or something well you know I was just saying there's certain humans didn't have rights at one stage yeah like let's say and like I don't necessarily I think I think you didn't even have the right to vote I think like 50 years ago something like that yeah and I think I don't I don't necessarily blame the individual for their misinformation and like the miss like the miss education of individuals someone was brought up in a incredibly racist family and that what they weren't responsible for what they they learned right because they were part of this racist horrible family right and then they go on and act out that racism in society right now they're not responsible for learning this racism but they are acting it out in society and harming others do you think they still have some level of responsibility they need to unlearn that pretty damn quick wouldn't they I think because I'll end up in prison or yeah I think I think it like is I wouldn't necessarily blame them for their what they were taught as a kid because I had no control over that like you but like then but then I we're getting into the whole thing of the justice system and I don't believe in the way the justice system is like I think we don't have as much responsibility over our actions as we think we do but I think is like I think the difference is where it lies is when we we've had the education and then we still refuse to like ignore it okay so if you're at what you're doing right now yeah okay so you think you should be like prosecuted or something no because I like I am taking actions it's not illegal but like I mean in your in your world let's say in your opinion like you're doing something you know is wrong now because you've been educated been educated a lot you agree with the vegan position so therefore you agree that it's morally wrong to do this to animals so you're doing something morally wrong by your own admission yeah yeah okay so do you think there should be some type of punishment how are you supposed to stop people from doing this like in the future like animals are always going to be tortured and killed because there's no law well I think there should be like I think there should be things put in place like what well like I think like a law protecting animals from being murdered yeah maybe so you'd be in breach of that law what about if I paid someone to murder them for me would that still be against the law in your new law book because if I paid someone to kill you right now let's say hit man walked up they were just minding their business I paid them said kill you didn't like the way I said she's happy killer I want to eat her afterwards or something you know like that that should still be against the lawyer for me to pay someone to kill someone okay it's just a hit man thing it's you both get charged for murder if you pay someone to kill someone yeah so like you're paying this farm family farm over here to kill these animals yeah you're paying them to do something morally wrong to the animals yeah yeah so you're part of that chain and you already know that obviously I do know like like I'm in like a big sort of like hypocritical circle at the moment and I'm not I'm not not aware of that I'm just lazy yeah you're just lazy and I was just wondering like if there should be a law in place you would be in breach of that law yeah there should be a law protecting animals you think what you're doing should should class as breaching that law so you're in trouble breaking that law yeah so what should be what your consequence be to stop this from happening because you obviously not going to do it out of your own free will that's why laws exist because a lot of people aren't going to not rape or not kill out of their own free will see we need laws to stop them or it doesn't always stop them but it does put a pretty big consequence in so what is your what how many years jail should you get I don't know five two one just a warning a warning no really thoughts about so I guess I'd have to think about it you know sometimes they they mirror like morality with laws so I mean laws sometimes laws don't catch up to morality in time you know and then people will protest and the laws will change but let's just say this law caught up you know morality and law caught up with the animal thing you would be breaking the law yeah sooner or later yeah I was just wondering like what should I mean I do trouble should you get in but I think the thing is like yeah I mean I like I'm not run to not break laws yeah so I mean it would be interesting to see how people would say so it'd be a law that you would stop you'd actually stop doing if there's a law in place but you're unconscious you won't stop for because no one's actually holding you accountable so maybe a couple of friends but your family definitely won't your peers won't everyone else eats me it's only you that can hold you accountable for this not a law yeah like and I think that's my point of like I'm slowly like working at the courage to hold myself accountable if that makes sense like I don't like it I think it takes I think there's like naivety about like how easy it is to change lifestyles it's like it's like I'm not I'm not comparing eating meat with like an addiction but I think it's not as easy as just going okay I'm not going to eat anymore because that's your lifestyle that's the way you've been like brought up to live it depends it depends what you know what's on the line your point was that because of the addictive nature of eating meat and the habits and you know this this whole conditioning we have to allow for that because you are doing something that's immoral but you're going up against this tired wave of conditioning family all the things you've been taught like that's exactly what I'm saying like there needs to be some allowance to allow people to like not you though because you know that it's wrong yeah but like yeah yeah but not for you because I agree like when I'm educating someone right you've already been educated you come up and you said I agree with veganism right yeah so I would hold you more accountable than your average person who doesn't really know and hasn't really had time to mull this over so I'd say that you become then more morally culpable because you know very well about you're very intelligent by the way you're very smart you know exactly what you can follow this conversation very easily especially because you're 18 you're intelligent I thought the most 18 year olds he can't really think so robustly about all of these different topics and I can see you've thought it through so I'd say you're way more responsible than your average meat eater and I went way more more morally culpable than your average meat eater who doesn't know disagree yeah yeah so that should be a little bit more weight on you because your conscience should grow that state be like wait a second yeah but but I'm like also talking about like like I'm saying like back like let's say a year ago I like wasn't educated at all and I'm like slowly taking like time to like educate myself and I'm like slowly and it's like it's just getting out of those habits that that's where I'm at the last step of like getting out let me just say something to you when I was 18 I was on drugs drunk eating all the meat getting in stupid fights and I wasn't even thinking as clearly and robustly about these philosophical topics as you are so you're way ahead of me light years ahead of me and like only when vegan when I was 26 27 something like that so you know you really are ahead of me and I'm not trying to be super hard on you but I just want you to like realize because like I actually really like you and I think you're really smart and I want you to realize because like you know all this you know that you're actually more comparable than your average person and these animals that you do care about animals and one day you're going to be like you know what was I thinking back then yeah you know because if you already agree with it it's only your actions that I'm saying like like my actions like I'm saying like the next month or so yeah like it's just like I need to like have the talks about this how about this how about you don't commit to your rest of your life you just do challenge 22 which is 22 day vegan challenge completely free you don't have to pay anything and you just do it in a Facebook group and you just basically you do like a vegan challenge and 22 days because 20 takes 21 days to rebuild a new habit neural pathway yeah so if you just do it for this say you do it for a month right and you don't put any pressure on yourself you like all right for a month I'm doing this all right and in that month you sort of watch some documentaries I don't know if you watch any documentaries but when you stop eating I do like watching documentaries yeah so we got some this is a dairy I made this one milk make your own mind up and they got to minion land of hoping glories a good one to see what happens to land of hoping glory with this slaughter and stuff yeah okay you know so and then you can like oh no I've watched how seriously okay yeah land of hoping glory is more about the horrible things that happen to animals and farms this is particularly about dairy seeing as you know I haven't seen how I've seen something okay I don't know which if you just do it for a month yeah and then you've you've kind of like you've not put all this pressure on to you like oh my god the rest of my life like yeah if I don't if I mess up I'm like you know you've just like it's a good thing earlier to my friends that like I think I like one of the biggest like off put is like I don't want to let myself down so if I make that commitment and then I break it I would feel really shit you know you don't it's not like oh my god you messed up yeah you're not you don't believe in the vegan principle anymore yeah and I think that's like I think yeah that's like the point that I need to like teach myself that it's like it's about making the effort veganism is like a philosophy yeah so you already believe in the philosophy and now you just have to act it out but like let's just say you make a mistake here and there right so you're not making conscious deliberate intentional mistakes to harm animals you know like I think like you know just making your way down that path right but don't don't kid yourself either because a lot of people do like to kid themselves they're like you know they meet every now and then still and you know if you know that it's wrong I think you make that commitment but like if you make a smaller commitment then it's not as daunting okay that's talking to you there's a really good conversation here you can give these out these are for you and your friends these are like scan them with the QR code and they show you where the vegan stuff is it's good talking here see you later thanks are you just here over here are you not with the vegan activists over here really nice to meet you thank you so much really nice to meet you take care of yourself thank you