 Thanks for joining us. Welcome to the New America Foundation. I'm Reid Kramer. I direct our asset building program here at the Foundation and our efforts focus on advancing the tools policies and resources that help aspiring families move up the economic ladder and of course a foundation for this journey for everyone but particularly families that have lower incomes and fewer resources is education generally and specifically higher education so I'm very pleased to have this discussion and event today on financing college success innovations to promote readiness access and completion and in recent months we've seen a lot of attention on the student debt issue for good reason we know that the current cohort of young adults is having a hard time navigating this economy and finding work that matches their skills and aspirations but there's also some troubling news there was a recent report that talked about the rising debt levels even among students that are failing to get degrees and failing to get through college and we know that the road to college success is built over time and importantly there's a financial component so today's discussion is going to focus on that connection between student financing student finances and college success this is a relationship that has many facets we particularly want to shine a light on the role of savings and the potential of getting students to think about their future getting ready for college getting the resources accumulated so they can make it a reality and limiting their need for loans so elevating the potential of savings to trigger these effects has been one of the motivations of our work in had a project called the college savings initiative that we've done in partnership with the Center for Social Development at Washington University this past January we released a series of reports by Willie Elliott who's here today that looked at the links between children's savings and educational outcomes and you know his research Willie's research that he'll talk about showed that the college-bound identity that a child might develop begins as early as the fifth grade and that when students have savings they're much more likely to go to college even if they have low incomes it turns out that there's a number of innovative programs that are underway to break down barriers to college and get students thinking about their future these include efforts to promote savings accounts with primary and secondary school students San Francisco is implementing something called the kindergarten to college initiative where they're offering accounts to all of their kindergartners in the public school there's a partnership for college completion that's underway in the chip the the KIP charter schools that's being implemented by the United Negro College Fund and our colleagues at CFED and a lot of ways that that we should be looking at connecting public benefits to support services and providing access to responsible loans and financial aid so policymakers really should be asking what interventions can build expectations for college success and and what tools are available or should be made available that can help students manage their financial lives so these are the questions I think people should be asking and I think some policymakers have been asking them we're very fortunate to have congressman Chaka Fata with us he represents the second congressional district in the great state of Pennsylvania in the city of brotherly love where I grew up right next door to his district and among other things he's was one of the chief architects of the gear up program and he's been a big supporter of that effort which is a program that provides support services to low-income students middle school and high school students to get them prepared for college since it was created in I think 1998 it's become with the congressman support one of the country's you know leading premier college readiness programs so he's going to talk about you know share with us his thoughts on the work of college readiness and awareness the importance of starting early and ways in which the gear up program can contribute to that process we're also very pleased to have with us Martha Cantor who's undersecretary for the Department of Education and along with Arnie Duncan Martha and her colleagues are responsible for implementing the administration's goals the president's goals to have the best educated and most competitive workforce in the world and measured by how many people graduate from college over the next decade she's very focused on the issues of access and affordability quality and degree completion and I'll also note that she's been somewhat of a trailblazer in this position because she comes out of the community college world having led one of the nation's largest community college districts this morning the department of ed announced plans to pursue a very innovative pilot in the gear up program a demonstration project that will deliver 10,000 accounts savings accounts to students participating in the gear up program and they committed to studying the impacts of the intervention and finding ways to leverage that the learnings from that experience into large scale policy at scale so this is a very exciting endeavor it's an idea that I've written about and thought about with others for a long time and I think it holds great promise so you want to improve long-term educational outcomes we should get kids thinking about savings thinking about their future thinking about what lies ahead what they need to do to succeed in college so I look forward to hearing more and we're very pleased to have you all with us today and let me welcome congressman fatah to the podium thank you well I haven't been this excited in a long time this is a great day and to be here with a number of friends over the years who we've worked together but to Dr. Saunders White it's good to see you again and to our esteemed Dr. Elliott III who's done just I mean is the I think the leading scholar anywhere on earth on this subject of the the intertwined relationship between savings and college-going aspirations for young people I want to thank him for his service in our military and more importantly his and more over his work now in the academic arena making relevant empirical information to help guide policy and to the undersecretary who's that engaged in all manner of activities and the most I think energized Department of Education that we've seen for decades in Washington it's good to see you again let me say this when I introduced the legislation that created the gear program long ago now millions of young people have and been impacted hundreds of programs across the country and Nathan's here from INCEP and they work that's been done in all 50 of our states and in our three territories it's proven without a doubt that this is as the largest early college awareness and scholarship program in the country that we can indeed impact the college-going rates of young people who otherwise would be written off but this new addition which in some ways is not new but it is different in terms of the way that we're now going to apply an evidence-based approach to it because in October of 2011 there were some 42 the new grantees for gear up who had savings accounts attached to their their programs but this is going to create a real model that we can draw empirical evidence from by having a control groups and using state grantees so this is a big deal as we go forward because as we look to increase the rate of young people going on to college meeting the president's goal of leading the world and adults are receiving a college degree by 2020 we have a lot of work to do and there's no possibility of meeting that goal without creating a larger percentage of college going among the population served by gear up and rather in South Dakota and a Native American reservation or in the deep South in a state like Mississippi or in urban areas like Philadelphia gear up is proven that it can work but we do know something from Dr. Elliott's work and that is that to the degree that we tie actual savings accounts that it will increase the the number of students and the adults around them who think about college as the most realistic outcome for these young people in fact Senator Coons and I have introduced the bill the American Dream Act the American Dream Account Act which would create a emphasis at the national level of the promotion of college savings accounts based in large part off of the work that our esteemed professors done and that the new America Foundation has been promoting in a variety of ways which in some cases have already been outlined but what we want to do and what gear up is all about is taking what works to scale so this is you know it's wonderful to have boutique approaches that work but what we need to do is impact the tens of millions of young people who are in our schools and gear up is the best vehicle I think to proceed along this line and so I'm happy to be here I'm excited about this work I know you're going to have a great panel discussion about it unfortunately we're in session so I just skipped off the floor at the voting and I'm on my way back but you can be assured that we want to work with you as we go forward and for Secretary Duncan and Undersecretary Cantor the announcement this morning is a major step forward we obviously will have this work to look on as we see the broadening of the empirical evidence and we can quantify much more directly what we know to be true but we need to see it play out in a variety of circumstances throughout the country then we can look to even further integrate this into the gear up and other programs that have similar aims and goals so thank you for your work thank you for your leadership and your scholarship and I think the foundation for not giving up on the idea that there is a new America if indeed we're willing to work for it thank you thank you everyone I don't know if you can see me I'm not the tallest person in the world but I want to thank you read for you know your introduction and Congressman Fatah you're our hero especially when it comes to gear up and the possibility of really innovating in a way that's going to help more low-income people have the aspiration for a future that we all would want I was really happy to look back at some of our Pell data over the last couple of years and we've gone from six to nine point eight million Pell students enrolled in college today and so imagine if we could double that and how much capacity we might have if these savings accounts and the research that will come as a result of this really populate the number of college going students that this nation is going to need to get us to the 2020 goal as Congressman Fatah referenced part of reaching the goal is to really ensure that what I call the top 100 percent of people in this country who want the opportunity to go to college have that opportunity and savings is really the first stage of the financial pipeline toward what President Obama has characterized as the 2020 goal to get us to best educated most competitive workforce in the world so getting there for us and the president has said this a number of times and Secretary Duncan and myself means that we all have to share responsibility to get this done so for the part our part in the federal government working with states working with all the institutions that came forward to start off you know what is the savings account look at the research look at you know CFED and all of the research that you know you've done Dr. Elliott and others to get us to this point is very exciting because we see it's a point of convergence for the country to say we're going to use research we're going to use evidence and we're going to track what happens to these young people to get them to say I am going to college and I will be able to afford it I was thinking back when you were talking Congressman Fatah I was thinking back to a conversation I had with some marketing people when I was a community college president and they said don't you know so what is what is the group that most influences parents buying behavior and I said well I'll take a guess and they said middle school students middle school students have such power in influencing the buying behavior of parents so when I think of what we're going to do with the savings accounts and thinking that the gear up program will make that available in a research environment to take a look at this the idea that we are saving for students to go to college and that they will then influence family the family commitment to that happening is really very very powerful but it has to be the shared responsibility of states the federal government as a catalyst to do the right things and to put the right academic quality behind it so we have the research like you and others are continuing to share with us and we can have the results to say we want to do more of this or we want to do it in a different way but this is really going to be valuable to many many more more people so you know I talked a tiny bit about Pell the federal government has to have and maintain its commitment to strong student aid we want to incentivize states to do more they've been you know over 80 percent of states have cut public funding for higher education and we've got to turn that around we want institutions themselves to modern modernize what's caught what's taught in the classroom we have too much remediation going on we have to strengthen the partnerships between middle schools high schools community colleges and universities there's a lot that's being done that we can build on and today only 56 percent of the full-time first-time freshmen are getting through college in six years so when you think of the pipeline you think you know we're losing I think there's a statistic we're losing a young person every 22 seconds in this country every 22 seconds a young person is falling out of the college pipeline if they know that a savings account is there for them they learn the financial literacy curriculum that is so desperately needed in young people to say I'm going to do this for my future and this is why it matters I think we're going to have a big success story to tell in a few years we've got institutions of higher education that actually you know some institutions are closing the achievement gap I just got off the phone with Metropolitan State University in Minnesota you can go local Towson State University it is possible to close that achievement gap what we need to do as a nation is really cut down on the amount of remediation by putting in the pipeline fixing that pipeline that I talked about so more students can move through faster and that's really what gear up is all about gear up is taking middle school and high school students wrapping around services looking at curriculum that is much more modern than maybe 50 years ago when I taught reading to young people and move students through much more quickly but students need to know that they can afford college you know getting across the finish line has to do with price and it has to do with planning and it has to do with the whole family system whether you know it's a state or a federal government taking care and local apprentice of a foster youth person who's in middle school or whether it's someone in a family that doesn't have the means that does want to have a future so when we think about students and families you know they have a responsibility in addition to states in addition to the federal government and in addition to the to the institutions of higher education to say we are going to make a commitment to save for college we are going to fill out a FAFSA federal student aid application thanks to congressman Fatah and others in this room you know put in place direct lending and cut out almost half of the questions on the FAFSA and you know I keep going back to Michael Dandenberg and other people in our office saying we won't need a FAFSA in the 21st century we should know the family should know that they qualify and that should be the vision that you know we should make it easy we do it in social security you know you get everybody in this room gets a letter from Social Security Administration every spring as to what what you made and what you can count on in your retirement from the SSA why don't we do that with FAFSA so I mean we have some big ideas to put forward and really it's going to be a menu of ideas that couple what the GEARUP program has long now proven that we need to implement the strategies that will will lead us to the success that we want for students and we want families to really compare you know someone was telling me the other day too many students choose only one campus when you look at the FAFSA application they put in one campus so we want families to make good choices and cost is going to be a big reason why you choose college A or college B if you couple that financial decision with the quality that you'll receive at that institution so we want students and families to really migrate to high performing institutions with good solid graduation rates where students graduate with little or no debt or minimal amount of debt or debt that they can afford and when you couple all of that together I think we can do a whole lot in the financial literacy area through this pipeline that is going to be so essential for success so to move us forward we're going to stake take big steps you heard about the investing in innovation competition and race to the top we've got some principles for action that we're building on we want to create an evidence base to do this kind of research and we're really excited that gear up is going to have the college savings account research that will be a demonstration project for us to move forward on we want to build on the evidence we want to provide 10,000 gear up high school students with these savings accounts they'll have their own accounts they'll have seen and matching funds and I think this is going to be a spur to other people I know when I was a college president raised a ton of money for scholarships I'd be putting with what I know now three years later after joining the administration I would have put a scholar you know a scholarship savings account for middle school and high school students and I think we have that vision each account will be seated with $200 it'll be matched up to $480 we'll have a total of over a thousand dollars for students to have when they enroll in college we can couple that with Pell grants couple that hopefully with the restoration of state aid especially public institutions and couple that with philanthropy and other means so that students can really put a financial package together that their families will say this is affordable and I will do it on the back end you know all of the public service loan forgiveness and all of the information about the American Opportunity Tax Credit that you're hearing about you know package up on the back end as well as the front end so getting back to the savings account as I said this really is the first stage of the financial pipeline toward that 2020 goal America cannot afford not to invest in the future and so these this research and and the gear up savings accounts are going to really put us on a great path forward so I want to thank you for having me and now I'll just turn this back to read for the panel to come up and share with us their their expertise and insight thanks so much okay let's bring our panel up here uh Willie's here Evelyn you're here uh Kevin make it yet let's see he might come in and and Debra great well why don't you um right we're gonna have this panel uh that's going to discuss the role of student finances uh in the process of gearing up uh for college um I'll introduce the panelists they'll go in order and then we'll open it up for discussion among them and uh among you in the in the room uh Willie Elliott uh the third is assistant professor in the school of social work at the University of Kansas uh previously he was at University of Pittsburgh and he's done uh as the congressman mentioned a lot of groundbreaking work uh in this area uh in January we released uh the series uh called financial stake in college financing what was it called financing creating a financial stake in college that was it had four four parts to it um and a lot of really important kind of background material for uh that's related to the gear up demonstration as well as a lot of other children's savings account uh efforts uh Debra Saunders White is deputy assistant secretary for higher education programs at the U.S. Department of Education nice to see you thanks for joining us and and gear ups your responsibility right okay so you're in charge of getting this demonstration off the ground and and running among other things so we're going to get her perspective uh as well and then Evelyn um Gans glass uh over there on the far right nice to see you uh is at the Center for Law and Social Policy and she directs their workforce development uh class in in general does great work um and uh her work with her colleagues now uh is exploring the potential uh the potential helpful role that public benefits play uh in um getting students to pursue post-secondary education uh degrees they're involved in a very interesting pilot with a network of community colleges uh looking at the role that the public benefits play so she'll share her perspective as well and kind of what unites uh public benefits and savings uh is this broader uh student financial life that I'm I'm referring to and and uh we want to you know look at the the bigger role that that that's played about how finances can can help students get to and also get through uh college uh Kevin Carey is going to be joining us he um his daughter had a dentist appointment that evidently he couldn't get out of uh doing the delivery but he should show up momentarily um and also say we're very pleased that he'll be here assuming he gets here but next week he's joining us as director of our uh education policy program here at new america he does great work we're really pleased uh to welcome here previously he's been um policy director at the education sector but he's coming to take over our education policy program that was launched in 2006 by michael danenberg who did excellent work uh getting it launched and started and is still doing excellent work uh working with under secretary uh canter and her team um so um thanks michael for all of your work getting this over the finish line and for your work previously at new america um okay so that's the lineup uh willing i'm going to turn it over to you uh are you comfortable there or you want the podium you're comfortable there okay well any of you can be invited to speak from the the table or come up to the podium and after you go i'll flag you down from the front if you're going on too long uh but then we'll open it up for uh questions great thanks for having me here uh i like this the dentist story i like real life things i mean you know real life continues on all the time so that's great i am not a public speaker i'm a researcher so i'm going to stick to my notes and i will be uh hopefully um on time so and and these are more non-academic uh comments uh and then i'll mention some of the findings that towards the end so philosopher uh Ludwig Wittgenstein wrote a book called uncertainty in this book he talks about the groundlessness of our beliefs he proposes that before we begin to doubt anything we must first assume some things to be true see doubting requires a certain level of knowledge you must uh you know this from your years in school and learning new things in your everyday lives when you first begin to learn something you begin by memorizing facts and listening to others and only later do you begin to think critically about what you're learning that is doubt begin to doubt things and raise questions in the social sciences assumptions or a type of theory based on nonscientific grounds assumptions gives us the knowledge we need to be to be able to begin to raise questions about things that matter to us as researchers i will discuss two basic assumptions that i make about the world that allow me to begin to question what it will take to truly make education a great equalizer in society these assumptions or theories underline my thinking and work on children savings the first area i call the theory of average intelligence when i think about intelligence i think about it in this way if you had intelligent if you had an intelligence scale zero to ten most people would fall somewhere around five to include myself in cystics we might we might say something like the data are normally distributed being of average intelligence here is not referring to the level intelligence a person has at age 42 or age six but at the moment prior to genes being influenced by the environment the point at which genes begin to be influenced by the environment might occur before a person is even born my theory of average intelligence leads me to conclude that many of the differences we see in academic performance are due to differences in effort and environmental factors so on the one hand you may have two children both poor and of average intelligence however they perform very differently in school due to different levels of effort on the other hand you may have two children who have similar levels of effort in both are of average intelligence but in this scenario one child outperforms the other due to differences in their environment for example low income high achieving children enrolling in college at lower rates than high income high achieving children or maybe more concerning low income children low income high achieving children enrolling in college at similar or lower rates than high income low achieving children as we see in American society this first the first scenario aligns well with the typical person's notion of the American dream that effort really should be the deciding factor in who succeeds and who fails when you have children with similar abilities the second scenario leaves us all feeling like something is wrong with the education system therefore I suggest it is better to focus on research theory and policies that attempt to understand and address the second scenario it is it is worth pointing out some differences in effort might actually stem from differences in environment when it comes to school that is environment can influence a level of effort but second theory is equally simple and it can be called the iron man theory for those of you like me who love the adventures I saw it four times you know that the iron man character is a man named Tony Starks who wears a computerized iron suit he even has an imagery source said was surgically implanted into his chest and now powers the iron man suit and keeps Tony Starks alive nothing more more exciting than that right if we could just do that the iron man character provides a visual illustration of how technology augments a person's ability allowing the person to accomplish what she could she could not on her own when I think of the iron man theory I think in a highly specialized technological global society like we have it today it is no longer simply about what a person can do on their own through individual resources effort and ability it is increasingly about the knowledge the person has to use societal resources and the access they have to the resources to augment their individual resources yes there's a second page an implications an implication of this for me is that the american dream can no longer be achieved through the simple formula that many of us grew up believing in believing in in trying to make work in our own lives that is adding enough effort to enough ability to produce desired outcomes to every problem to every failure there is a simple retort work harder it echoes in my mind almost constantly while this remains an important part of the formula it is not as simple as just working harder anymore it is a hard thing to accept to maybe individuals should not but societies must have a more reason view so that effort continues to lead to desired outcomes for individuals and the dream continues to live in in a to live on in society for the majority of people not just for the advantaged even if individuals themselves do not recognize work the work of society in their lives advantage here could mean an effort an effort advantage extremely high self efficacy that allows you to hope when there is no reason to hope ability advantaged uh just so darn smart right or an environmental advantage wealthier than the rest the formula for achieving the american dream has been changed in the modern world whisked out in the middle of the night leaving many unaware that it ever changed they still labor trust and devise theories and policies based on the old paradigm for achieving success it's no longer a time when you can give a person a piece of land and they can work that land in isolation and achieve success in the modern world there is new there's a new formula where ability in societal resources have become so integrated that even the individual during the work can hardly discern where individual effort begins in societal resources cease they function as the pumping of the heart does you don't know it's pumping until your chest tightens we're in the case when societal resources cut off a school is closed and internet connections lost a teacher under performs in this in this is the way it should be hidden in the background in my research in in the case of children's savings policies when we talk of societal resources or environmental factors we have thought mostly about economic factors and in particular financial assets this is not to suggest that it is the only important societal resource but that it has been understudied an understudy factor in the field of education and it is something that policy can do more easily than some other things institutions provide people with access in command of the financial assets moreover in a capitalistic society individual financial assets provide people with capacity to participate in negotiate with influence control and hold accountable institutions that affect their lives that is assets beget assets when when we provide people with individual assets we are essentially providing them with the power to access and command institutions needed to reach the american dream in the modern world if this is the case the opposite is also true when we deny people access to individual assets we're essentially denying them access and command over the institutions they need to reach the american dream whether we deny them today or we denied them in the times past the result is an uneven playing field that effort alone is most in most cases cannot overcome children's savings accounts might be a way to build children's assets and in turn give children capacity to participate in negotiate with influence control and hold accountable institutions that affect their lives children's savings accounts are save or savings or investment accounts that can begin as early as birth they allow parents and children to accumulate savings for post-secondary education home ownership or in some cases business initiatives in many cases public and private matching funds or deposited into these accounts to supplement savings for the child and despite this they do not teach children to sit at home as some might suggest they teach children that effort mixed with societal resources is a new formula for reaching the american dream giving them a sense of pride in the institutions of this country the meta message is you pay your share we'll pay our share is a recognition of the individual in society that each must invest if either is to be successful so what does the research only teaches about the effects of having saving a savings account as a child that children with the savings account are more likely to attend college that having an account appears to be more important for lower-income children than higher-income children that both black children and white children benefit from having an account in regards to their college outcomes there is some evidence but less that children have better math outcomes as well there is growing evidence that short-term savings liquid assets might also be important for children's educational outcomes as our long-term savings particularly among lower-income children farther children who have savings are more likely to have savings over the life course in more saved and similarly situated children without savings how do we think of how do we think asset effects occur by changing children's expectations about the future giving them the ability to find reasoned hope as opposed to requiring them to hope when most reasonable people would not we also think that these effects may occur not so much because of how much children save most children in these studies which don't study csa's per se or children's savings per se but savings in a bank like bank of america have saved on average around four hundred dollars not a lot of money we speculate that we might still see effects even when very low savings even with very low savings because while the purchase of college is yet far away it is less about the amount of money saved and more about what children expect they can save in the future with an account however these findings come from secondary data sets as a result we cannot rule out that other factors may explain the effects of children's savings more refindings are limited by smaller sample sizes and in other times by the types of questions available in the data sets in the way the variables are measured that's why this new initiative is so important. I will end where I started with Ludwig Wittgenstein. Wittgenstein said when we first begin to believe anything what we believe is not a single proposition it is a whole system of propositions it is not a single axioms that strike me as obvious it is a system in which consequences imprimises give one another mutual support research is much the same way it is not a single study that persuades us but a set of studies using a variety of methods combined with our lived experiences that gradually persuades us what this research on the emerging system of what this research or the emerging system of propositions has persuaded me of is that the idea of children's savings is worth a closer look and more rigorous examination when combined with a program like such as gear up children's savings may just play an important role in helping to restore the education path as a great equalizer in society. Well good afternoon everyone I have the pleasure this afternoon of being the voice for the Department of Education and as it relates to this demonstration project but before I go through the details of what the project truly is I'd like to give credit where credits do I have several colleagues here that I'd like to recognize Michael Dandenberg Phil Martin and Stephanie Schmidt and also Linda Burr Johnson who are all part of this team that made this day a possibility you've heard the the acronym gear up and I'd like to make sure we all understand what that acronym is it really is gaining early awareness and readiness for undergraduate programs and it's important that we start that way because as I give you the specifics of this research demonstration project we keep that in mind I know we gear up becomes a convenient word and I've been in government now for about a year and I know it's heavy laden with acronyms but really this is a discretionary grant program this year we saw about 302 million dollars in the program it is a program focused on middle and high school students preparing these low-income students for a better opportunity and we define that better opportunity as higher education it is very fitting for me to to sit next to you Dr. Elliott and to hear your comments about the research that is currently in the field the department reviewed this research and felt that it was extremely promising yet we felt we needed to add to that body of research to help influence policy therefore today announced as a announced for public review I think is the appropriate term and formally announced in the federal register tomorrow is an opportunity for the public to respond to the department's initial ideas regarding this demonstration project let me give you a few details about what we have formulated thus far and what you will see in the federal register tomorrow this is a project that the department is proposing to use 8.7 million dollars from fiscal year 2012 federal gear up funds to carry out this college savings account demonstration project we intend to use these funds focusing very specifically on states as you know as some of you know the gear up program has a state component and it also has a partnership component we will be focusing on states and particularly those states that have cohorts have a cohort approach to implementation and I'll explain why that's so key as I move forward we intend and as you heard the secretary canter under secretary canter remark that we are intending to focus on 10,000 students 10,000 students will be in a in our experimental group and 10,000 students would be in our control group it is our objective with our partnership with the Institute of Educational Sciences IES Stephanie is here representing it is our intent to develop this rigorous randomized study where we will have data to support I hope your research Dr. Elliott that children's savings accounts have make a difference in a student's opportunities or ability to go to college why gear up well gear up has a statutory authority that allows us to provide financial counseling and financial literacy resources so it's just a natural fit for us to apply this particular demonstration project focused on savings account to this program gear currently serves about 700,000 students we have about 26 different states involved however with this cohort approach that we are taking there will be 13 states that would be eligible for this particular project what's the specifics of the the program as we have defined in our notice again it's 8.7 million dollars 2 million dollars will be set aside for states for implement or administration and how ironic for us to have a meeting this morning with our friends from INCEP where we didn't talk much about this Nathan we did want to steal the secretary's thunder but the concern that they raised this morning was the fact that there were no funds set aside to help administer these type of these type of programs clearly what we are our objective is to change behavior and to influence the opportunity for more students to have an have an opportunity for a better life what we hope will happen is that that students will see in their families will take advantage of this this program and will have additional resources to attend an institution of post-secondary education what we will do with those successful grantees who are providing a cohort kind of implementation is that in the ninth grade students will receive a $200 seed from us from the federal government these monies will be deposited in a federally guaranteed kind of account and then if this the students would then we would ask them to match on a monthly basis $10 a month for four years which adds up to about $480 if they provide those funds the federal government would then match those for $480 so at the end of the four-year period that student's family that student and his or her family would have $1,160 to help them to fray some of the costs of higher education but more importantly I think as you've stated Dr. Elliott I really I wrote that down because this notion of reasoned hope I think is imperative in this process our friends in IES will be conducting the study we will obviously post or present data at the end of the study which is scheduled to be in 2020 how ironic that it matches the president's goals for delivery but we will also look at publishing on an annual basis given the current gear up annual performance plans that are required we will be gleaming from those data information relative to the success of the this program I think is also important to note that a program focused on savings cannot be successful with just an allocation of resources those resources must be accompanied with appropriate financial literacy training and we not only will hope or require that our grantees provide that what we will do is help our grantees understand those elements by providing technical assistance what we are requiring is that the grantees would twice a year hold some type of financial literacy workshop for the students and their parents and that this would total about 12 hours of instructions if instruction if you will so that the entire family has a perspective of the value of of savings and what this would mean for the possibility of a better future so this opportunity to that you have starting tomorrow is a 30-day window and that 30-day window we are most sincere and our desire to seek your best advice to us relative to the notice that we've published and so then the entire notice is is available for your comment but I draw your particular attention to helping us define the merits and drawbacks of the different types of college savings accounts and whether a single type of account should be prescribed for the project in addition any comments that you have relative to directory information and directory information really bleeds over into that FERPA world and helping us understand how directory information could be used to open accounts without the need of a social security number or other tax identification number to facilitate automatic enrollment and that's really the key you know you'll see in our notice this this comment and this requirement for grantees to set up a an account that allows for automatic enrollment and so those that are interested in participating in this demonstration project we want the the student and the parent to be able to they will automatically be included and then they'd have to opt out so we would invite your comments about that and then we'd invite your comments about the expected take-up rate for the for the savings account now we're we're excited about the possibility of what the data will look like for us in aggregate and also in a disaggregated form so we are been working very closely with IES in such a way that we will be able to provide that type of information as a result of the study and what we would hope is that this study would help frame the opportunity for many more studies many more opportunities to come and will help us on the policy side of the house. The specific account structures that we're we're asking states to engage in fairly flexible there for the student component you know 529s are pretty popular in some states however it doesn't necessarily require that states embrace a 529 but it does require that states invest in and have an administrator and a trustee for these accounts and so I invite you as you read the notice to pay particular attention to how the department or what the department is looking for in terms of the commitment for these states moving forward and ensuring that that these accounts are well protected and really are used for their intended purposes so the announcement again I said will be formally be published next tomorrow you have 30 days from tomorrow to give us your most robust comments Linda and her team are going to be available to digest those and I hope that as a result of the type of collaboration that I hope will exist in the next 30 days a result in the next 30 days that we will publish a notice inviting application early in August so that we can make these awards by the end of September and our objective really is to have the first ninth grader receive a savings account starting in the academic year of 2013-14 so we're fairly aggressive and what we want to achieve we're excited about the possibilities and I think I'll stop there and I think we'll have some questions later so I'll stop there to entertain any questions that you may have if we did introduce you in your absence Evelyn why don't you make your comments first and then Kevin you can have those okay thank you I'd like to just spend a few minutes talking not about children's savings account but as mentioned about the financial needs of the very diverse community college student many of whom are older many have family responsibilities many many of them are low income and while there's an assumption of affordability at community colleges if you take into account the cost of living expenses of books of transportation of child care of all the things that have to be provided for somebody to actually attend community college the the financial burden on the on the student is still very high it's less than at the four-year institutions in 2010 the estimated cost for attendance at a community college was $14,637 which is much more than just the tuition obviously compared to 20,339 for a four-year student the reason so so the the the financial burden is very high and yet there is tremendous unmet financial need even after you take into account all of the financial aid that the student may get in fact 80 percent of community college students have unmet financial need after the the financial aid calculations have been made compared to 54 percent of public four-year college students not surprisingly given that situation 85 percent of community college students really combine work and education to meet their own living expenses as well as those of their families one third of students work full-time and we know that while part-time work is actually a positive contributor to education working excessive hours and I would say full-time employment while going to school full-time is excessive really hurts students achievement in college completion rates persistence rates etc and belongs the whole process because they have to go to school part-time there's a growing interest in a set of interventions of strategies to try to improve the financial stability of community college systems that go beyond traditional financial aid and these include increasing financial assets and you've talked about that as children's savings accounts but for adults as well access to public benefits emergency loans increasing financial literacy activities as part of developmental education as part of you know the first courses that students take in in colleges and then there are a whole set of activities to help people gain employment working part-time whether it's work study as part of financial aid or private sector employment on the public benefit side we're really focusing on a range of benefits as well as tax credits most low-income students who are working would probably be eligible for EITC the earned income tax credit very many of them will be if their parents will be eligible for their children for the s-chip program for health insurance for for children fewer would be eligible for TANF welfare or food stamps now called SNAP or other assistance clearly parents are going to be eligible for more things than not than than single students and immigrants and non-residents are probably going to be the least eligible but there's a full range of possibilities and and we're busily exploring all of all of those the idea is to provide the financial stability enable students to work less study more take on less debt pay their tuition and fees on time and all of these things together hopefully will contribute to to improved student persistence and completion unfortunately many students are unaware of the benefits to which they may they or their children may be entitled they don't know about them they don't have the time to go down to the human service office or whatever office is necessary to apply and they just you know don't don't apply for it and also don't persist in staying active even if they do initially comply because they don't make they don't have the time for their visits and and all of that so we have been involved in a number of initiatives now to test out different strategies we're working with a number of community colleges we're doing some policy research around these questions of whether access and receipt of these benefits including the services of financial literacy etc will actually contribute to improved retention progress and completion and I just want to mention a couple of these projects one of them we're calling benefits access for college completion we're working with the american association of community colleges and we're just finishing the the planning stage of that so I can't tell you which colleges are going to be part of that we're just maybe two weeks away from announcing that but there will be most likely seven colleges around the country that are going to really try to integrate benefits access into their ongoing work at the community college whether it's part of the financial aid office whether it's part of student services they're trying it with volunteers they're trying it with a whole variety of ideas the key is to implement these strategies in a sustainable way at low enough costs so that in fact it becomes embedded in the everyday practices of community colleges we're far away from knowing exactly which strategies work and even further away to have the evidence that in the long run it will succeed but there's early evidence from a number of these strategies that in fact semester to semester persistence has has improved as part of this benefits access to college completion initiative we're also starting a learning community that really will bring together national organizations as well as a whole range of colleges throughout the country that are involved in these various strategies that I talk to you about and the problem at the moment is that each one of them as with many other things are operating in isolation so they're a group that are pursuing financial literacy and they're part that are dealing with scholarships and emergency loans and there are others that are dealing with benefits and there really hasn't been very much communication across those to figure out what the overlap and interactions are between these policies and to understand what works in student outreach and and other issues such as that and we're about to kick that off so if any of you are interested in learning community please come up and and talk to us and and Abby newcomer who just walked in in the back of the room who's leading a lot of this work she and I just spent the day with a number of community college folks in the Annie Casey Foundation and it's interested in scaling up an approach called Centers for Working Families again within the community college context and that initiative has a number of components the premise is that the single interventions really aren't enough for most students that have that are more at risk in in in a failure in institutions and so the idea is to link a number of strategies together so there's the linking the bundling component of it and there are three broad categories again access to financial aid public benefits other resources services to improve financial knowledge budgeting skills choice of financial products and you've talked about that earlier and then workforce services to help people with career planning and actually connect them to work so it's a matter of bundling these services in appropriate ways for different students and then the final effort that we're involved in is really a policy research activity where we're looking at the in potential positive and negative interaction among financial aid and all of these other benefit projects the notion is that at the federal level the higher education acts as in determining financial aid we won't take into account receipt of any of these other financial supports and in these other programs financial aid is not supposed to be taken into account for the most part that's true although we've identified several glitches where the law they forgot and they're in direct conflict with each other and in quite a few cases where there's just a lot of confusion especially at the state level where all different kinds of decisions are being made but the interesting thing that we've learned is even when there aren't direct conflicts it's really the whole sequencing of how you put together a package of supports for students really determines what they're going to be eligible for or how much they're going to receive so from a student perspective which is not the way many of these decisions are made it really does matter which door you walk into and where you start in this whole process and hopefully over time we'll be able to sort a lot of this out and have some impact on the field to to try to package these benefits in a more beneficial way thanks. Thank you. The New America Foundation's asset building program has been making important contributions to these these kinds of ideas for a number of years now and I confess that the first time that I was confronted by them or came across that idea of subsidizing college savings accounts in a variety of forms for low-income students my reaction was it seems like a good idea it also seems kind of complicated and why not just take that money and use it to increase Pell Grants or make make college cheaper. What I have since been the answer and I think it's a very good answer and what I've since been really persuaded by is this notion of college savings accounts as a means of engaging students and families much earlier in the decision-making process that it's about families investing in the future of their kids at the same time they have a sense that society is investing in them and I think that's really important we know that a lot of the important decisions that families will make that will ultimately determine whether their students go to college and if they go to college whether they succeed there happened many many years before they're confronted with the FAFSA and a lot of the kind of conventional instruments of financial aid I mean we're talking about course-making decisions that go back into the middle school grades we know that the the psychology and the decision-making process that that families and students go through when they decide whether to go to college where to go to college how to pay for it is very very complicated much more so than simply being a matter of having enough money to write a check at a certain a certain time there is a complex cost benefit analysis that goes on formally or informally and as the overall price of college continues to rise which is a topic for another day or probably another week or month or that cost benefit calculation becomes more tenuous for some students and it becomes all the more important that we achieve that kind of sustained engagement between families and the path to higher education and so what I think has been you know really interesting and in some ways kind of revelatory about the research that the foundation and the program have sponsored and the papers that came out earlier this year and the contributions that my fellow panelists have made is really starting to kind of nail down the the specifics of those dynamics the benefits of this kind of engagement which are you know indeed financial and and particularly for students who are economically marginal particularly when prices are you know going up it really can make a difference about whether you've you've been able to put some of that money aside but also this broader sense that we don't wait for people to be of quote college age or or that perhaps we redefine what the phrase college age really means in building programs that signal to them this notion that if college is the right path for them and it will be for most of them that that society is ready to make that commitment and that it expects a commitment in return and I think it really is that sense of that dual commitment which is kind of embodied in the dollars and cents of these of these savings programs but but sort of much more so the notion of it that really does sustain people through what inevitably will be a bumpy road along the path to college I mean many people it's a relatively small number of people for whom the path to enrolling and enforcing and paying for colleges is smooth those people are highly overrepresented here in Washington DC but for the broad populace I mean it really is there are many many points along the way where people can be diverted where their momentum can flag where they can be confronted with what seem like you know short-term choices that might make sense that really aren't in their long-term best interests and so the the way that these kind of programs can anchor them and and and affirm that commitment again earlier in their in their lives I think has a lot of potential and so excited to see the Department of Education participating in this and the role of these new programs and and glad to see that these ideas are coming to fruition. Okay let's open up the conversation to those in the room and among the panelists we have a mic that will rove around we've questioned here if you can let me know if you have a comment or question that would be great Deborah it does seem to me though that you we've gotten some marching orders today which is to to look at this notice quite closely and to to give feedback to the department within the next 30 days and that's both on the design of the demonstration and I assume also on the evaluation side as well and you mentioned we have some colleagues here that have played a role in in thinking about that side so if if there's some comments that they might have or you might have about that evaluation we can have get to that as well I will say that you know what's exciting about this is is is the intervention but it's also the potential learning and doing it at scale so it can inform policy change going forward you know we want to see evidence-based policymaking generally but we don't want just the the demonstration and the learnings to accumulate we want to inform policy we want to see see that change as well so that's obviously going to unfold over time here but I think that in the rollout it's quite promising the way you guys have structured it so a lot of accolades I think are warranted to you and your team okay let's start with the question here yes my name is Jamal Abdulalim I'm a correspondent with diverse issues in higher education just a few few questions relative to the savings accounts I was hoping someone could speak just a little bit about potential ethical concerns about having a control group you know if I were a student and I found out you know 10 15 years later that I was part of a control group and I could have got something that you know intuitively people believe has been official to higher education I think I might be a little bit upset about that the other thing would be 529s I know a performance kind of varies by state if I'm not mistaken so perhaps you could speak a bit about the requirements for the savings accounts that would be eligible to participate in this in terms of the cap you mentioned that people could save $480 and then the federal government would match and I was wondering well if you have a situation where some people don't max that out then that would I guess that would be extra money and you know why cap it at 480 if maybe there's extra money for those who want to save a little bit more and that seems like that would be a stronger incentive for savings you know that hey if you save 600 we'll match it at 600 because you know some people might not participate then the last thing would be you know those of you that are familiar with I3 you know that there's this component where there's some type of requirement for a philanthropic match for some of the grantees and so I was wondering what would be the potential to have in addition to having the federal government match the savings to actually get you know some buying and investment from nonprofits in the regions where the grantees are are serving gear up students right great thank you let me take your last question first I appreciate your series of questions what we are hopeful you know this is a demonstration project and what we are hopeful that will of what will happen is that with the interest with the federal interest in children's savings accounts and and matching it with a program like gear up that already has a final financial literacy program in as part of it and also I mentioned that there's a cohort you know that this is open to states that have a cohort element and and states that have received the 2011-2012 awards are ones that are indeed eligible the reason why we put that cohort piece in there is because we think that those states have already made an investment in working globally with those students in the gear up program on financial literacy and could indeed have scholarship funds or have its administrators already in place so it wouldn't be a harder start for them to move forward to embrace the savings account your question and what we are hopeful of for is some of the fine work that INSEP has already been doing over the last year we announced this the the we announced the idea of savings accounts as part of the gear up competition in 2011 and that was an invitational priority and many states or many folks saw that as kind of a signal from the department to start really and thinking about it and starting to make investments and I can tell you that we've already received many calls from those successful grantees who are already thinking about children's savings accounts already reaching out to the private sector trying to find additional resources to do to actually start moving on on this project so we're hopeful that that community will will continue to grow and will will be realized the cap you know you that's an interesting concept I you know I welcome that as a comp a comp comment to the notice that we've just published or will be publishing tomorrow in terms of what happens if if folks really accelerate you know we're dealing with just a finite pot of money right now and you know if students are not if parents and students are not putting in in the account and they if they sit if those those things are if those accounts are not matched over a six-year period then that that money comes back to to the department and then you know if that money does sunset if we don't redistribute it back to treasury and so I welcome that comment in terms of if you've got an approach of of how to accelerate that use with those additional with funds not used because you know we this is not a program that's cast in stone that's why it's out there for comment because we're we're anxious to hear your thoughts as to the things that maybe we have not thought through the the idea of the control group and I've got Stephanie Schmidt here from IES really you know this is a this we we're telling folks upfront states upfront that you've got to be willing to embrace this this idea of a randomized study we think that the design of this study is rigorous we think that it's going to be able to yield some very powerful results we don't think that we would disadvantage students to in the control group because and this is why gear up was truly selected because gear up really does have a very strong financial literacy piece there and we are we're hoping that the financial literacy please coupled with the savings account would change behavior but this is eyes wide open meaning that the states who respond to the notice inviting application understand that and that the the students and parents selected also understand that they are either part of the experimental group or the control control group so there are no secrets at the end of the the the process if you will and as I understand it from the the notice that I looked over the control it's by school there's a you're you're either in a school that's offering this or you're in a school that's part of part of the control so you're not going to be kind of comparing yourself to your your your friend and neighbor who might have had an opportunity that you didn't get access to but also everybody will still be in the gear up program they'll be able to get those services as well and the other comment is this is also how we learn this we try to figure out if it's effective by isolating the intervention but certainly it does erase raise other other ethical issues that that might be worth kind of tracking so just two thoughts just to add on to that I think it is the next step that we have to take unfortunately and having the control since we can't just kind of say okay we're going to do this nationally and just roll it out and give everybody an account it really is the next next natural step we've done we you know can do a secondary data analysis and we kind of need to make some some some next steps as far as giving everybody money I think it is a problem you have a finite amount of money and so even though some people might save not save you have to assume that everybody's going to save in the beginning and that they're all going to be their match because you have to have a certain amount of money you know you have to allocate that money that way because everybody does meet their match then you're I don't have enough money if you're giving it to others who met it fast or whatever else but there might be ways in future years maybe the first year you have it and you have some pot of money left over at the end to allocate that for incentives or whatever else for achieving certain milestones or there's lots of thought about that yeah and that's why we're really inviting the comments on that that piece and Dr. Elliott's absolutely correct we have to make the assumption that those those 10,000 students who participate will will fully participate and we are you know we're obligating ourselves to making that match if if in fact that they do but I like your idea of what happens if others accelerate and you do have extra money and what would you do so I would like to see the structure of that comment so we could at least throw that around and see how it lands and you mentioned the 529 college savings plan model and and there are aspects of that plan that actually I like quite quite a bit and how it provides kind of an infrastructure for savings that's existing currently it goes to middle and upper income families that take advantage of it Kevin I know you guys have looked at that policy a little bit you have some reactions to that opportunity of using 529s in connection with this effort sure I mean I think the infrastructure for savings is important I have a 529 plan and so I'd be a hypocrite if I said that I thought they were a bad idea I do think that the I mean it's the treasuries the treasuries studies have shown that the incidents or the benefits do skew pretty pretty hard toward the top side of the income distribution because those are the people who have high marginal tax rates and that's sort of where most of the savings comes the the concern I think or the or the risk about 529 plans that you have to mitigate is that college going is pretty inflexible for young people I mean you graduate from high school and it's time to go to college and whereas markets are inherently unpredictable and so we certainly saw three four years ago during the recession a lot of people just get caught you know if you're if your student was starting college in September 2008 and you were planning on your 529 plan being the difference I mean you were in trouble and that I mean that just happened and a lot of people had to delay college going and as we all know the research says that delaying college going is a serious risk factor for non completion and all kinds of other problems and so that is a problem that is it's not wholly solvable the risk can be managed if we're careful about the way that funds are invested as we kind of approach the college going time it means you give up some return but that I think is I think the guarding against some kind of catastrophic market loss particularly for the kind of populations we're starting we're talking about is worth it and because there would be a match anyway you know it would still be a good a good deal for them let me be very clear though I certainly hope I didn't give the impression that it was only a 529 that is just one vehicle in the states really do have the flexibility of selecting what works best for them it could indeed be a 529 or any federally insured banking institution or any kind of banking instrument that they deem most appropriate for their particular needs so while the 529 you know is a is is a it's in the marketplace it's just being used here as is as illustration okay okay we'll go right here and then over there and then back there sure if there was one up there first so I'm john spader at apt associates and my question is I wanted to know if you could say a little bit more about the guidance being given to individual states on the financial education component and it seems like there's there's a balance there between having a standardized intervention and allowing for individual states to experiment with different approaches and different types of interventions and I'm thinking a little bit about the assets for independence demonstration and the amount of effort it took to build the capacity of the financial literacy provider network and particular the individuals that were acting as financial education trainers and part of that is it seems like there could be benefits from tapping into that network so either finding local cccs providers or local financial education and coaching providers and so I wanted to ask if you could speak to sort of what the role of ta is and how much standardization is a goal I don't think that at this point we have any set standards I want you to know though that the gear up program already has a very strong financial literacy component for this particular for the use of savings accounts however I think that what we heard when we published the the invitational priority talking about the use of savings accounts what we heard from the gear up community was that there was just a void there of how really to get started and what really to do and what what kind of opportunities they would have or what should they look at you know just just really how do they how do they jumpstart this engine and so what we have done with this program is provided for some of those administrative costs that are that are not normally provided for to provide that technical assistance so what we will be doing from the department's view is bringing those successful grantees those project manager project directors in town and really providing them a very rich program that helps them understand the nuances of managing through these savings accounts and the particulars of that you know one of the things that we've learned in our discretionary grant programs particularly those that focus on states are that we need to provide as much flexibility to states as possible they appreciate that and so we are kind of capitalizing on those lessons learned in this particular program to provide that I'm not sure I'm answering your question and if there any my colleagues who feel like they can address it much more powerfully than I can please step in you have some experience working with your local gear up program in in Kansas is that right and also some experience working kind of in the in the asset building community with some of the organizations that are kind of providing savings accounts there I think will be opportunities for states in preparing their applications to find these partnership organizations to kind of create connections that make for a compelling proposal and an application and anyway will any experience there that you think is is relevant to this discussion well I think there's a there's a lot of people using a lot of different methodologies for teaching financial literacy a lot of different curriculums and so I know even INCEP has a their own curriculum financial literacy curriculum on their website so I think there's there's a lot of it out there and then it's just a matter of figuring out which one they're most comfortable with one they think works best and consulting with people about that it's kind of on that note I mean even I know you talk about having two annual kind of times when they do that I think videos in tweeting also might be a component of that as opposed to just the two two times a year so that might be something they could do as well great you the question here and then we'll come over here Mr. Carey kind of addressed this but I was wondering Professor Elliott if you had some some feedback on your research um does the research show that reason hope comes from simply having a savings account or is there a discussion regarding how large the account needs to be compared to the cost of college you know $1,160 doesn't cover a single credit at many colleges today and then also put another way you say that two-way causation exists there's like a savings leading to positive expectations and then positive expectations leads to savings so how do you see or does the research show that that the rising costs of college impacts this causal relationship and does the amount of money impact whether this study will be successful or not good questions um and I think to some degree we need a study like this to start talking about causal relationships and these kind of things so I can tell you more or less about the associations we see and we think that leads to uh so just a basic fact of using the panel study of income dynamics which most of these studies have been done with um nationally people don't save that much right so there's not much savings in these accounts particularly around children we're talking like I said I'm about on average about $400 and we still see these kind of positive effects so it would lead you to believe that it's less about the amount and kind of what I was trying to gloss over in my little talk before was that what I speculate on the why that why that is is because of something called uh future expectations about savings right so I have an account and I understand that savings is a way to accumulate money and I'm not going to purchase my my my college until down the road and so I have these benefits just from knowing that I'm in a savings account and at some point I believe that I'll be able to save a certain amount of money to help me with that so you have that right so you start seeing effects early on in engagement and a lot of things were like Carrie talked about was is that is this idea of getting children engaged early on in a process where appell grants much later you get that much later you get this much earlier on and so they can begin to think about it in in in hoping these kind of ways and then I think we have to be strategic as we move forward about how much um practically do we want these kids to have saved up which might mean different kind of matches it might mean maybe volunteering in different kind of activities having community support like you mentioned contributing to these accounts but but there does seem to be from what we can see uh effects from just owning account and what people think that will do for them in the future we need to have a study like this though that that actually can control and tease this out better does that answer your question and it might be that this is some of the feedback we we offer to the department which is uh you know is this enough is this enough to trigger the effects enough to trigger the savings process that could accumulate resources that could make a difference you max out but you don't go farther you get to four figures you get over a thousand dollars you know is that enough should it be more uh and uh i've got some things i'm going to submit in comments uh to this process to try to and i actually think that the seed is important to get it started but but putting more money on the table the match uh and also figuring out ways to incentivize other contributions from other sources because i do think um you do need to build up a pool and and maybe you know seven eight hundred dollars maybe that's not enough to trigger the effects uh even though we've we've we've shown that it can do something one more thing one more thing on it real quick please i think when you think about it there's two different kinds of questions one is is it enough for them to pay for college right what they're doing no right and then the other is it does it change their engagement in the way they think about school so when they get to a point of college they're in the right mindset they're filling out phosphorus they're doing the things they've done and they've done enough along the way that they're academically prepared right so so those are important things in and i my research i would think along the line you talk about adding money is maybe some kind of incentive structure maybe that's where other money comes in so they can earn money for uh achieving certain milestones both academically and in savings wise to help accumulate more money but i think two different questions one is engagement kind of a question does it change their mindset the other is practically do they have enough to pay for college and how much do we think they should accumulate during that process uh for that that makes sense and if you if you really look at the gear up program in totality and you know keep talking about the financial literacy aspect of that but this is a program that really focuses on also on building the academic foundation within this these these sets of students and so what one would hope is that as that is is a fundamental part of this discretionary program grant program and then the financial literacy piece is that somewhere along the line this this uh high school student understands that there's a cost benefit associated with attending college and there are some activities that that she and her family needs to be engaged in before the FAFSA occurs and then how do you really look at that whole completion agenda as it fits into this this aspect as well so you know clearly eleven hundred dollars is is not going to to pay for college credit we understand that but it is the the it is the behavior and and the the concept that we're trying to improve in terms of of starting to lay the groundwork that there is an expense to this and it and it could be attainable for those who acknowledge early on that there's there's a process involved it can't go on set enough to it's also this idea that what does it mean to a child right to know that a their parents are investing in them early on that their country is investing in them early on we talk about identity based motivation and some of these things we try to explain asset effects i think it has a lot to do with that this this whole idea that there's this group that believes in me and is investing in me and that can have effects beyond just being able to pay for college that i think are really important Evelyn i actually wanted to ask you about your experience with the community colleges and and whether or not this kind of intervention would would peak their interest as well obviously if you can find ways to connect them to public benefits that can help them retain their students and make sure their students can engage that's very attractive but we also know that a lot of community colleges make links to local high schools and other you know feeder schools and if this could be a way to to make sure that there is also some way to be be ready and engaged it could be something that's attractive to the community college community and maybe something that could be part of the state proposals for for this kind of demonstration we haven't directly worked on that aspect but i would think partnerships between community colleges and high schools would make a lot of sense in this regard we're just we've been focused on trying to meet the need once they get there and and why they're dropping out and and financial need is one of the many reasons that they're dropping out and working too much but i think anything to help people plan for and feel that they're prepared not only feel but be prepared to to engage in college i think is a a good thing but we have not directly been involved in those discussions as as part of these initiatives great we have a question over there other hands let's see okay last question hi i'm with the ywc of the national capital areas adult literacy program and i was wondering what you see as the role of adult literacy providers and all of this and how this can help adult ed students on their path to college and how similar programs might be implemented for adult literacy students one of the one of the things we're really trying to accomplish through a number of these initiatives is to bridge the gap between the credit side and the non-credit side whether it's the adult education programs or the workforce programs and a number of the schools that have been involved in the in the planning process actually are targeting adult education students not just the ones that move into developmental education but adult education students who have high levels of need so we will see how that works we've been working with the ones where community where adult education is provided through the community colleges we have not at this point and maybe we need to be doing that really broadened to the the broader adult education community but there are quite a few states in which adult as you know adult education is provided through the community colleges and they're very much part of this these initiatives great okay i did want to thank all of you for for coming to join us today and and debba i wanted to thank you and your team for getting this effort through and over the finish line and i and i guess as of tomorrow the the clock starts ticking we have we've 30 days to give some feedback so thank you very much and thank you for joining us