 I have a question for Kier, or better to say a request for his opinion, among the erratical movements. I am very interested about the Anabaptists, and I'd like to know your take about this very interesting episode of European history. Thank you for that. I didn't mention the Anabaptists because I was running out of time and I was trying to focus primarily on the medieval heretics. The Anabaptists, I think, can be understood as a development of the Hussites, or at least very strongly connected to them. They were German heretics who were particularly prominent around the Rhine and in particular Munster, where they controlled the government at one point and expropriated a lot of property. They were much more radical than most of the other Protestants, much more akin to some of the more radical medieval heretics. Luther, for instance, had no sympathy for the Anabaptists. Yes, there was definitely a connection between the Anabaptist Protestants and the Hussite medieval heretics. Thomas Munster had visited Prague in the 1520s and built up a sort of network and made some Hussite connections. One of the Hussites is ideas which was held in common with other heretics. I think they got it from John Wickliffe and who knows, further in the past. One important idea which is obviously inimical to libertarianism and properitarianism, if you like, is the idea of dominion by grace. The idea that secular and spiritual authority or power and also even the ownership of property and private wealth should only be allowed to those who were judged to be in a state of grace, to only those who are, if you like, in modern terms judged to be virtuous. And these people, these late medieval heretics and these early modern Protestants, how did they judge this? Well, they had translated the scriptures for themselves and so they equated God's law doing good with whatever they decided to find in the Bible and they associated it with all kinds of ideas which we would consider as socialistic or even national socialistic today. And they acted on these ideas. There were revolutions and rebellions and expropriations across Germany and elsewhere. There's definitely a strong connection between bad ideas and bad practice and so those would be my few words on the Anabaptists. Brazilian experts here. I'm curious about the economic future of Brazil. How is the currency stability and the bank credit cycle play out in the Brazilian economy and what do you see in the future? Is it going to grow? Is it a growing country? You know, when we talk about Brazil or Latin America, you never know where the bottom line. It always can be down. But for the first time, I can feel a different feeling because, not because Brazilian became smarter or more intelligent, but by lucky, our business cycle, the bus came before the rest of the world. So I see Europe and America, they are about to get in crisis and Brazil had it before so it has to start its reforms before everyone. So when the crisis strikes the rest of the world, Brazil might be in the right track before everyone. So I am a little bit optimist. Our prime minister, our financial minister from Bolsonaro government, he's not exactly an Austrian but he's from Chicago and he's doing what is supposed to do. He's privatizing companies, he's lowering the government debt and for the first deregulating, which is amazing, it's unthinkable. A few years ago, talk about what this guy is talking or doing, in fact. So we are in the political struggle because the government hasn't, the majority are on the congress and the laws has to be negotiated. We all know what this is all about but I'm a little bit optimist, yes. So relatively optimistic about what is going on. It has been a big change, a drastic change. The whole political system has taken up a new orientation and compared to what has been going on over the past 30 years, it is an orientation towards free market, there are some libertarian elements in it, in the group. They just published a statement about free markets and so it's actually a revolution happening and my impression also is that with this is going on a change of intellectual climate, which is very important. Up to now it was totally in the hands of whoever, whatever one may call it, the leftists or Marxists or Communists and so on and the youth in my opinion is about to make a U-turn and adopt and at least to get interested in libertarian free market ideas and the political system, however, still is full of the old mechanisms. The tendencies are still there so the new president cannot just go on and his finance minister and economics minister as they would probably like to because they depend on coalition work. The problem is to understand. In Europe we usually have parliamentary system. In the US you have the presidential system and in Brazil this is totally mixed so you neither have a clear presidential system nor a clear parliamentary system and this makes things extremely difficult so things that are rare, even initiating impeachment are relatively easy in Brazil. It is almost like in a parliament like it happened in Britain recently you can get a new prime minister by the parliament, you don't need a new election so this is the mixed up so it depends very much on the political quality of Bolsonaro to play the game and we still have to see in how much he can do that and without losing the direction. That's the problem that you fall back into corruption. Now there's privatization coming up and what I've heard many of the politicians say we support it, yes but they expect to get part of the cake. So these games make it difficult to give a clear signal that things are turning to the good but generally I think also this way. Case of Venice is far more famous than the case of Genoa. How would you describe the main difference between these two republics and in addition is there some event that can be identified that led to the change in Genoa from that old system to being part of a general state. And let me just add another question to Tony. How representative is the selection of Christie and Rankin? I'm not a great mystery novel reader. I mean these could be just accidents so to speak. Do you have any idea if you would find that let's say if you look at the American mystery writers or mystery writers from other places where you would see similar changes in the course of time? Concerning the first question I would say that the two systems are quite radically different and this is true when you compare not only Genoa with Venice but Genoa with other city republics in Italy. Very often you see the same institutions in Genoa and in other cities. So at the superficial level it seems that Genoa is following a certain pattern during the high middle ages and the late middle ages concerning its constitutional development but actually when you look at the powers that these institutions had in Genoa you almost unavoidably find significant differences. So for example the figure of the Podesta which is quite widespread at some point during the high middle ages across northern Italy was a sort of foreign judge called in to solve the disputes within a state, within a city state among different families and different factions which will seem to match libertarian theory in the sense of private arbitration and calling in a judge that has the trust of both parties or of several parties. And yet when one looks at the Podesta in Genoa vis-a-vis the Podesta in other city states one immediately notices some differences. So for example in Genoa the Genoa is called the Podesta only for one year and they lay down a series of conditions that the Podesta has to respect. Right, also other cities are doing the same but in the other cities the Podesta is more of a step towards the centralization of power whereas the Genoese are making sure that the Podesta can only help the weaker faction in case that the stronger one plays the role of an aggressor. So for instance very often the contract signed by the Genoese assembly with this foreigner who comes in is okay you come in for one year you bring a dozen of your judges to spread across our territory and 20 to 60 men in the sense of soldiers. Now that was not enough for these men to take over the entire city but it was just enough to have at that time 20 or 60 professional soldiers take the balance in favor of the party that had been subject to aggression by another party within the city. And there are many of these examples of another institution later on is the institution of the Sindacatori which you find in different cities across Italy. The Sindacatori are men who are supposed to check that the constitutional order is respected. Now what's interesting is that in Genoa the Sindacatori have more powers and they can prosecute officers of the Republic who have misbehaved not only after they have done some but also during their term of office and trying to summarize a few of these different. So Genoa is a unique example. Concerning Venice, Venice is one of the most militaristic republics. The difference that may be of interest is the difference in the commercial expansion in the imperialistic expansion of Venice vis-à-vis the Genoese one. The Venetian government directs the Venetian military expansion into the Adriatic, into the Levant and in Northern Italy itself. There is a large territorial expansion. And Genoa is not engaged in a territorial expansion. It doesn't build a territorial state in Northern Italy. And the Genoese colonies across the Mediterranean and beyond are formed in a more spontaneous or disorganized manner. There isn't a public arsenal. There isn't a public policy, a cohesive policy of the Senate to direct this expansion. So the second question was about the time in which Genoa starts to lose this tradition. That's a bit tricky. As I was preparing this paper I realized that this war of 1625 is really impressive because it's very late and still Genoa is using a variety of non-state means to resist aggression and it does so quite effectively. After this the public expenditures go up and some of the pressure also from allies such as Spain are important to consider. But I would say that Genoa remains a republic without really a large public with an enlarged standing army until the very end, until its destruction in the 18th century. I hope that this addresses the question. A so-called Golden Age of English detective fiction which actually Agatha Christie was a representative example of it and many other books have the same kind of atmosphere where the typical murder is shall we say a vicar in the library of a country house where of course murders don't actually happen. And I think there has been a brutalization in general of such novels. It's not just ranking but many of them they're disturbing because they often involve people being cut up and put in sewers or things like that or children abused and then killed. And actually George Orwell wrote a famous essay called The Decline of the English Murder in which he complained that we no longer have the kind of refined murders of the past. He called it the Golden Age of English Murder which was lasted from about 1850 to 1940 when petty bourgeois people or very religious people would kill their wives usually by poison and alternatively there was the Brides in the Bath, a man who got his wives, he married many people at the same time and he drowned three of them in the bath and on one occasion he played the organ and after he drowned his so-called wife, of course he was not legally married to her, he did it for the insurance money, he played an English hymn, nearer my God to thee. Well that was the kind of murder we all loved in England but George Orwell said we were going over to a much more brutal kind of murder in reality and this has been reflected actually in the detective fiction. So there are some writers who still try and write the village murder but in my opinion it's unconvincing because that world has disappeared completely but on the whole murder stories have become much more brutal, not just and ranking as a good social commentator and I think it's true in America as well and now other countries I don't know. You may have mentioned that Genoa was rejection of Machiavellian principles not only looking at the prince we can agree with that yet he also wrote in the art of war that you should not rely on mercenaries or on a bureaucratic military or even entangling alliances and in fact agitated for a militia, a very robust militia system so perhaps you can comment or contrast what Machiavellian is talking about with a militia system with what we saw in Genoa. Yes, the militia system that he had in mind was completely different it was a more centralized system under the authority of the state and he himself participated in the creation or in the attempt to create something like that for the Florentine Republic. Usually Machiavelli has a very modern view of the state. The state is sovereign and it is a machine that must be ready for war in order to survive. Machiavelli also has a distaste for private wealth. I'm obviously making a long story short but Machiavelli has a distaste for private wealth which is quite at odds with Genoa's values. What you see in Genoa is a celebration of entrepreneurship and of wealth in the majority of the cases, obviously. There are poems from the 15th century in Genoa where the anonymous Genoese merchant and entrepreneur is celebrated rather than the statists, rather than the great public servant or military leader. So in general, Genoa continued to represent a model of pre-modern state in contraposition to the Machiavellian revolution for quite a while. Now interestingly, Machiavelli has a passage in which he comments on the situation in Genoa and he complains about the fact that the communist or the state government is very weak, it's corrupt, it's disorganized and then he points out, oh, look at what instead the Bank of St. George is doing. So rational, so organized, so strong in its own laws and arms. If only the entire republic were taken over by the Bank of St. George then what a great republic that Genoa will become which is of course missing the entire point of the medieval jurisdictionally diverse system that Genoa still represented. So in general Machiavelli is indeed with its own new ethics which has been described by some as an anti-Christian ethic really. Surely as an anti-medieval ethic, an ethic that Machiavelli is one of the first writers in other words that creates a different set of rules for the state. So the rest of us have to abide to certain rules but the state is different. So in this sense Genoa is a contradiction, stands in contradiction to the Machiavellian standard, to the Machiavellian recipe we could say. Brazil is known as a multi-racial or multi-ethnic country and you've clearly shown that the states which are predominantly white are also the ones who are predominantly the wealthiest but the question is how is the division of wealth within the state? Is there a big difference in wealth between the ethnicities, the races and how does this reflect political life or social life in Brazil? Is there affirmative action? Is there programs? Is there demands for reparations like we hear in the United States etc. Can you comment please? I will give my historical personal example. My forefather came from Italy, the poorest guy in the world and in less than one generation all the Italians became rich. So when I showed the syndicates and the union in Sao Paulo get stronger it means that the Italian workers and industrialists they became rich and they became what today is the middle class and the richest class and it's obvious a racial difference because we are white, not for a German but for a Brazilian standard we are white and the black people never could do the same or the mixed people because there is not actually a big contingent of black people they are much more a mixed country and mixed people and the productivity of the immigrants from Germany and Italy was higher when our forefathers arrived there and we got rich much before then even started to be a productive industrial workforce and it makes a difference inside Sao Paulo state which is the biggest contributor to the gross domestic product and yes you know but we never had in Brazil a racial problem it's an American imported democratic byproduct and now it's a problem like the ridiculous numbers that Professor Miller pointed out in a university that 83 Negroes are harming in Brazil in one minute and it's causing a problem because who wants to hire for the same salary a guy with the productive is much lesser than the other and we are all schooled in Austrian economics and we know how distorted it became the intention to help the poor and to harm them and that's why the Brazilian system makes the poor poorest and the rich richest because I live in the other part of Brazil in the poor part in generally speaking and there you have the old established class who nowadays get rich because the forefathers usually of Portuguese descent were land owners and they also are these groups who are very active in all the politics and their political interest is not so much any kind of ideology but being at the place where for example new land areas are opened for building and this is the way how you can get rich in the northeast especially at the coast not just a little bit rich but really rich because you can imagine how this land gets values when it's for a lot of kind of created communities that are there along with tourist places that's one part the other part especially from the state where I am what I can observe the other way to get wealthy or to stay wealthy is to have solid education usually however in law not in business not in engineering not in chemistry but in law and then you manage it to get into a kind of official position and the discrepancy between let's say private activities even activities which for example in Europe are well paid engineering and so on you get in Brazil an outrageous salary so for example to become a public persecutor or a judge and all this kind of type especially if your wife also works in this area means that you can expect salaries of up to a million reais per year it's outrageous it's absolutely unbelievable what is happening how kind of high salaries the top public servants earn and when one contrasts this to the average people that in the northeast usually have no way to go because there's hardly any industry and those are small shopkeepers people that have an auto repair shop and said that they have a terrible life in terms of paying taxes of being persecuted through regulations and so on so one can put it this way in the northeast different from Sao Paulo you get rich by not working yes and you get punished when you do something productive when you are able to get in the public service in Brazil and become a public employee, a government employee you abolish the law of scarcity there is no problem anymore in your life you're gonna have a huge salary even after your retirement it's granted the same salary when you are in an activity so there is no more scarcity in your life just one question also for the Brazilians what role does these Pentecostal churches play I hear that they have an increasing influence Bolsonaro belongs also to this group and how do you explain the rise of the Pentecostal religion and the parallel decline of Catholicism I talk a little bit about that in my presentation but it's a deep question and deserves a close attention and one point is that the disfiguration of the urban scenario that we lost that balance, that priest per capita that used to be very equal in all countries and when the migration happens the church does not follow the same velocity of the change in urban scenario in Brazil so now the new Pentecostal and evangelical denominations they grow a lot in Rio de Janeiro which is 20 million inhabitants they are half of the believers and it's a big change in Brazilian scenario but it's like the racial question it's an American product like those evangelical celebrations about the prosperity, faith and they are very influential they already have one of the denominations has the third largest television broadcast in Brazil and it's very influential while the Catholic is one local television and they are gaining space, money and political influence they elected more than 10% of our congress and they are a political power in our country right now and you know, the first thing when Bolsonaro got the result of the elections got out and Bolsonaro was elected was an evangelical prayer with his evangelical supporters his wife is an evangelical believer so it says a lot when Bolsonaro represents it's a symbolism because Bolsonaro is a military so this time the military came to power by election for the first time and the symbolism of it is that he represents the original Republican project which is a fight against the Catholic monarchy the first Republicans in Brazil they incentivized other faiths to come here so Lutherans from America from all American denominations but it came to Brazil in the beginning of the republic so Bolsonaro seems like returned to the original project of the Brazilian republic I looked at this phenomenon with great interest and with the eyes of an economist and the economist always sees supply and demand and what I thought to see as an explication these groups have a good offer yes, they offer social integration for all kinds of people they are open to anybody yes, and so you're a little bit different from the Catholic church where you are Catholic usually by birth or by family and then you use the church more or less for certain days, for certain celebrations and so on and otherwise over the past decades many people have become aloof from this tradition but what they long for is a community now when you belong more to intellectuals so you may choose some kind of club or something like that or this kind but for the ordinary normal people there is a desire to join to have a social environment and in this sense these evangelicals offer really a good product where they have their, they call it cults and they take care of the children there they have musical teaching yes, they have own bands, they have own music so also for the, it's almost like also bringing in your whole family and I think this makes the attraction in addition to that there's also a kind of ideological difference as you've mentioned I think that's right they are worldlier in this respect evangelical Lutheran in the traditional Calvinistic let's better call it Calvinistic that is they open up the path it's okay to get rich while the Catholic church from a certain tradition admires more staying poor and not favoring that so much so they favor this idea to get rich to be modern and at the same time offer something causious community where I belong to where I can go to anytime I want to there are groups there and so on and the religious aspect that is there fits well into the it's not a different religion in terms of Christianity it belongs to the whole area of Christianity so even when you grow up as a Catholic you are not converting to a totally different religion you just make a few changes and you find a new home I think that's what I found out to explain this phenomenon I have to add something because it's a shift that happens in the Catholic church not in only Brazil but in all South America you know during the Cold War the South America had dictatorships in major countries like Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Brazil also and the Catholic church always had a conservative side in these countries and supported much of these military dictatorships in all America then the left discovered that the Catholic church has an important role in our society and then where it comes the Theologia da Libertação Liberation Theology, I don't know if Pope Benedict XVI when he was Cardinal Hatzinger he went to I think Nicaragua, Guatemala to ask the I don't know how to say in English but to ask the silence the silence to a a clergy that was creating the spreading this liberation theology all through the Latin America so it's a shift because the Catholic church became to support all left ideology during the 60s and when it reached the 90s it's already taken from the Catholic from the left side and the Catholic church supported the last 30 years of left government in Brazil and did not support Bolsonaro at all even Bolsonaro being with a lot of anti-gay anti-abortion or a conservative agenda the Catholic church was not with him in the last election so it's a shift that happens in the last 40 or 50 years even when the left discovered the importance of Catholic support and infiltrated in its lines with the theology of liberation I don't know if you are a quantist of this term thank you if I could just mention two two of my experiences one was in the slums of Birmingham and the other was in Guatemala and I saw in Birmingham the rise of the same kind of churches and I went to see them and I thought they of course I went thinking this is ridiculous but what I saw was that these churches answered something for these people whose lives without it were so sordid that this offered them something much much better in Guatemala the church the evangelicals whom I detested personally I thought it's aesthetically terrible aesthetically disgusting they would go around and say you can do something in your life if you do what we say you will be rewarded and unfortunately well I don't know whether you think it's unfortunate or fortunate what they were saying was true because if their people did convert they stopped drinking so much they stopped beating their wife they started looking after their children they went and worked their fields whereas the Catholics were concentrating on political action so they were able to tangibly improve the lives of very poor people which the Catholics didn't because they were waiting for everything to change before anything could change and these people offering hope to individuals and they actually bribed them as well, I mean that was straightforward bribing the Catholic church in this era lost this role to the evangelical churches and Neopetain-Costaud churches that's the point they just lost contact with the real people and that's why I don't buy the speech that oh Francis is a communist pope no he has an important role because he is how do I mean a parish pope a local pope that's what he represents in this sense he says things to real people it's not exactly that he provides what the people want the superversion of religion is all about God doesn't have to please us it's the opposite we have to please God that's what we are here to to praise God not the opposite so I see Francis as oh yeah he says some stupid things about economics all the time it's not that easy from Argentina and you know all the Brazil, Argentina rivalry but in some sense he's not that bad and I would like to put some more thought about that when I make it more coherent in this sense that he tries to come back to the the real people to this connection that the catholic church lost and lost big beautifully contrasted the fictional worlds of Christie and Rankin yeah sorry and how crime etc is portrayed in those novels and how it reflected to a certain extent the reality of the various eros so kind of the social disarray and the corruption of the police force in Rankin's world and the kind of the cushy villages and upper middle class life in kind of 20 30s in England with evil crimes below the surface but to what extent do you agree that this does reflect the reality in England of on the one hand social collapse but I really wanted to ask you about police forcing so for example there's been a lot of I guess controversy especially in recent years with high profile cases in London in the UK to do with stabbing terrorism and how especially since the Blair era there was kind of the idea of we're going to be tough on crime but tough on the causes of crime so kind of the evolution of criminal justice into being kind of more altruistic and rehabilitative rather than punitive which is short sentences etc how is this to what extent do you agree with me that this is true that there's been finding the police force and this had an impact on crime in the UK also social factors have affected it but to what extent do you agree with that and how it's reflected in the culture and also does the solution lie in harder policing with the government or is there a solution outside the state I guess I'm talking about Britain specifically but feel free to give other examples Policing and the criminal justice system in Britain is very feeble actually there are two I think one should always try and distinguish between primary prevention and secondary prevention secondary prevention is how do you get people not to be criminals in the first place and secondary prevention is what you do with criminals once they have become criminal and the two things are related but they're not exactly the same we have a very lenient criminal justice system which no doubt encourages people to be violent for example so that if you look at the number of we often hear in Britain for example that we have a high number of prisoners per capita compared with other western European countries I will ask you does anyone see what's wrong with that statistic it's an absurd statistic because just do a thought experiment if there had been no crime ever committed and there was one prisoner that would be an outrage against justice so there's not a question of how many prisoners you have per head of population it's the relation of the prisoners to the number of crimes committed and if you look at Spain for example Spain has roughly the same number of prisoners per head as Britain roughly but there are six times more violent crimes in Britain than in Spain Britain has by far the highest rate of criminal violence in Europe and you can actually show that this followed by the gradual the gradual leniency of the judicial system such that for example in 1900 we had six imprisonable offences per prisoner we now in 2014 but clearly you don't want a society to be well ordered only because there is a policeman around the corner and if you do you're going to stop you and if you ask me how do you do the primary prevention of of crime I'm not sure but I have in the past suggested that one of the principal causes of crime is criminology and this is only half I'm being only half facetious but we're almost through so I can't explain why I think that criminology has actually contributed enormously to crime at least in Britain Christiana you mentioned that the rise of Pentecostalism and Evangelicalism is not a purely Brazilian phenomenon it's a more general Latin American phenomenon how does this sit with the left particularly the far left side the Venezuela or the atheist left in Cuba for example I don't know what the left is in the rest of I don't know about Cuba but in Venezuela you know that the catholic church even being more left side in these last three decades it collided against the regime in Venezuela because the regime is too left is going too far on the left and even the left bishops and catholic church in Venezuela couldn't go along with them and the new Pentecostal or Evangelical denominations in Venezuela I do believe that is I believe that they have more catholic orientation but you know Venezuela is an example that we cannot understand imagine that South America country that the favorite sports is baseball is not football, soccer this country is impossible to understand only Venezuela is really an American 50 second state because how come South America country has baseball and the second sports is box is not even football football I think it's the fourth one so Venezuela is much more unknown in case than Brazil as pointed professor Miller the only thing that explains Venezuela is the oil to provide to US and they ruled Venezuela as they want even though they don't have this American influence on religions on religion as we had here with the Evangelical influence I think Venezuela is more catholic oriented than Brazil in this sense it's they are not like half of population like in Rio or in other cities in Brazil that the Evangelical already are more than 50% and in Venezuela in case I can't explain if I'm wrong if there is new numbers that contradict what I'm saying here but so far the last time I check it they are still more catholic oriented than the rest of us but it's if you go to Latin America the Evangelical Brazil that I told you that owned the 30 TV network in Brazil the largest one of the largest one they have churches in Africa all Latin American country they grow so fast they have in Portugal in Italy so they are growing in the world and the name of this is I'm funny because it's universal and universal is catholic in Latin so they are growing all over the world but it's a Brazilian export product to our experts on Brazil and how do you see possible association movements especially regards Brazil's strong capacity and it's easy money problem and then the second question to care and maybe to Cristiano as well so do you see possible opposite inquisition so an inquisition of original Catholicism especially regards radical changes done by the current pope the last question do you see a possible opposite inquisition so an inquisition of original Catholicism especially that is done by the current pope you know there is some catholic that says that the next pope will be the African one what's his name Sara it would be a radical change inside the church the Brazilian Catholic elite and the bishops of Brazilian they are very close to Francis Francis was in the Ceylon which is Latin America reunion of the bishops and they are all they have the same orientation there is some focus of more conservative Catholicism in Brazil the deeper Brazil is still very Catholic with our traditional different rituals a different kind of Catholicism in each part of Brazil in different parts of Brazil but yes you know Tom Woods has a profound task that he he launched to us Catholics that is to teach economics to the Catholic Church again to recover our great tradition and one of the thing that I most love one of the articles that I most love in my life was that Rothbard articles article that he points the difference between Catholic way of economics and the protestant way of economics and he points that capitalism is much more a Catholic thing and as I told to Professor Husman there is no such thing as a German cigar because we produce things to enjoy it different from the protestant side that's produced by because they have to work and work and work and yes it's in our cultural roots sometime it will it has to come back somehow it has to come back because it's much more natural against this unnatural democratic republican system and and now going about your first question about the party it's linked to this and as we go into to search in our locality identity Brazil has everything to be different countries as the actor pointed in the video I showed it was it is a different country each part of Brazil only united for because television power but you know when you treat about secession it's always like oh the north is rich and they want to get in Italy the north is rich and they want to sweep the street of this poor napolitans but it's the opposite secession much more do better to the poor吧 in the 호st w very lousy car being an extremely expensive price just to please the industrials in Sao Paulo state so if they are free to buy whatever they want the Industrialists and the power syndicates in in Sao Paulo that we would suffer more than anything if Sao Paulo loses Why Sao Paulo benefits from this insane? Transfer of money inside Brazil Because they strong the industrialists and the strong syndicates in south of Brazil benefits because they have a continent to sell their products That's Brazil They hold that the rest of the Brazil are obligated to buy from Sao Paulo industry. That's why the elites and the oligopolized industries don't Don't care about being About Sao Paulo being more taxed than the rest of the Brazil because the money that they pay from the central government get backs in Purchasing from the rest of Brazil. So it's a system very very tough to To break and the fight is not the state against state It's inside Sao Paulo state because the middle class pays this bill and suffers this This unproductive system So I don't know if I if I if you want to point is there any separatist movement? Yes mainly in the south Sao Paulo had its history because the biggest revolution Sessionist revolution happens in Sao Paulo state in 32 and Vargas crushed it but We are different people in Brazil The Sao Paulo people are different from the Northeast people from the north from the Amazon from the center And Sao Paulo in Rio de Janeiro, it's it's even another language. I can't understand what Carioca's Speaking and we are Koutou is not a Fixed thing I think it's Evolutes and changes according to influence. It's it's going and now it's a new culture cultural People every place in Brazil, I'm not I'm not sure I'm clear but Brazilian people are different in every different states. So I thank the panelists very much. I thank you all