 And you're very welcome back, and that was the sound of Eric Clapton there and his cover version of John Martin's May You Never. And joining me in the studio, as promised, I have got Tina Gary and Anna Gean Keenston. I've got the name right, ladies, this time. We're back again. Yous are very, very welcome, and many thanks for coming out on such a wet and horrible night to our book review. So, this month we were doing a completely different novel from the last one. We were doing Trespasses by Louise Kennedy. What did you think of Tina? I have to say I liked it. I really liked it. I couldn't put it down once I'd started it. I have to say as time has gone on, I've queried a few wee things. We were kind of bickering about our scores earlier before we came on, but it's very readable. It's a lovely love story. It's a lovely, maybe a bit of a love story to our horrible past as well. It was definitely a good read, especially for someone who's just brought out to be their first novel as well. And what did you think of it, Anna? Well, I loved it as well, and I just think what a triumph for someone who's written this as their debut novel. I know she's had short stories, she's written a few short stories and they've been very well received. I liked Tina. I couldn't once I opened it up. I couldn't put it down and I was on the bus from Prague Airport back to, you know, and I was reading it on the bus back to the airport. I just couldn't put it down. I thought it was fantastic. Loved it. And just give to me some answers, maybe Anna, off the story. Yeah. Well, I guess it's primarily a love story and it's based around a 24-year-old Catholic teacher. Well, teacher by day and then she moonlights as a bartender at nighttime for her brother who runs a pub that belongs to them. And one night she meets a man walks into a bar and she meets this man called Michael Agnew. And he is much older than her. He's married and they strike up an affair and they embark upon this relationship. Yes, I want. That's kind of the premise of the story. And then it moves on from there and follows their story. And also there are other themes within the story as well as being love story. There's, you know, it's set during the Troubles and just outside Belfast in a garrison town. So that's another theme and it's conflict and the Troubles as well. Yeah, the Troubles form a backdrop to the whole affair. So everything that happens with them, like I love the fact that every chapter opens like a news broadcast. Like every chapter opens with, you know, this morning in Lurkin a bomb went off at it. You know, it sounds like the news at the start of every chapter. And it kind of reminds us that even though they were living very ordinary lives, there was no escape from the Troubles. Troubles, you know, it was always there. This kind of underlying feeling of dread permeates throughout the whole novel. Yeah. And I suppose really you get from the very start the sense of foreboding. And I suppose very early on in the book, I think Michael asks Kushler, what do you think of them? And she says we're doomed, but besides that, we're okay. So you know that something bad is going to happen. But I have to say with sort of skiffing to the end and going backtracking again, I didn't expect the ending to be the way it was. I expected something else. Did you find that Tina? I felt the ending was a little bit rushed. There was the opportunity for a massive plot twist. A really sinister one involving David McGowan's brother Tommy. And I was like, oh my God, this is the direction that she's going to go in. And then she doesn't and she kind of lets those strands go and everything kind of, you know, kind of palms out in a much more serene way. And I wonder was that an opportunity missed? Because, you know, life kind of just goes on then. And I felt that the ending had this kind of sense of urgency. It came upon you very, very quickly. And that there might have been, I hate to say it, but a wee bit of a cop out. You know, I think that the sinister version might have been a horrible ending for Kushler. But I think it might have been a more exciting ending. I don't want to downplay how good the novel is. It's still a beautiful love story. It's still an excellent novel. But I just felt as if the ending kind of left me wanting a wee bit. Yeah. There was a shock factor. There was a shock death without giving too much away. And maybe she was trying to, you know, the troubles were a very shocking time for everyone in a terrible time for, you know, all classes of society. And I know what you're saying about it being a rushed ending, but maybe she was trying to capture that shock factor as well. Well, which she did because I said to Tina before I came in this evening, when that happened, I had to kind of put the novel down and absorb what had happened to move on to the next part. You know, how was, how was it going to go from there? Yeah. Did you know, Jane, did you when we, structurally the book has starts in 2015 and ends in 2015, but every chapter except for the first and the last is set in 1975. Did you see it coming? You know, what's alluded to in the first chapter? No, I didn't. And it was only, I had to go back and read the first chapter again. Same. Because I thought, you know, I didn't really know what, what to make of it. Just two pages, it sort of, and it went back in time. And it was only when I got to the end then I read, I had to go back and read all of that. It makes you gasp? Yeah. It really makes you gasp? Yeah. And also, you know, we're talking about the troubles there and you two ladies are a decade or so younger than I am. And again, living on this side of the border, you saw and then you use what the troubles were like, or maybe you were searched going into the north, or I remember I was a student in Dublin, and once you got it off McCloy, everybody got off the bus, everybody was searched, it was just hassle, hassle, hassle. There might have been a bomb somewhere and the bus was going round by Gorting Glen instead of going through Oma and Newton. You might have got home to one o'clock. But you know, the people living in the north during the troubles, and I have in Laws and Darien and what they experienced was completely different. And I think she captured that the troubles very well and the backdrop of the troubles was against the Laws story. And you know, when you look at the Ukraine now and you see them all going about their business and the buildings are being bombed by them, I thought that you could draw parallels there. Even very cleverly when she, Koshla's a primary school teacher by trade, she even talks about the vocabulary of seven-year-olds because they use terminology associated with soldiers and with violence that normally a seven-year-old wouldn't know or shouldn't know. When they're doing our news in the morning, this is the kind of language that comes from them where she mentions people checking underneath their cars for bombs in the morning before they leave the house. But it doesn't suffocate the love story or it doesn't, you know, it's there as a sinister undertone all the time, but it doesn't. It's not what the novel is about. No, it was just kind of the normality. It was normality. An extra character. At the time, it wasn't for people to check under their cars, maybe for bombs. And if they were on their way to a party, which does happen in the novel, you know, people being stopped by the police and questioned about where they're going and that became... And I know you said, Jean, we didn't grow up during the troubles, but I'm sure I've heard stories from my parents who would have worked across the border of what it was like then and how normal it was to be stopped and taken out of the car and questioned about your identity and who you were. So, yeah, it doesn't overshadow the love story at all. She just threads it nicely. Yeah, there's so much else going on. Obviously, it's very much a forbidden love story, but there are so many challenging family dynamics for Koshla as well. You know, she's got a mother who's... In recent years, she has lost her husband and her mother is a functioning alcoholic. She's got a brother that she doesn't really get on with that she's to help out in a bar, and they're very much a family that are struggling. Yeah. And when Koshla goes to parties with Michael, you know, these grand banquets or these, you know, big buffets are served and it's in stark contrast with what her and her mother kind of throw together because between the Gordon's gin and tonic and the cigarettes, the mother's just barely able to function and to cook a meal. You know, there's that kind of parallel even on a culinary level, which I think is clever because Kennedy's background is as a chef. You know, her grandfather ran a pub in a garrison town in the north like this. She brings an awful lot of autobiographical details into herself, which is kind of nice as well. And she explores, really cleverly explores, like, the systems of class, class in society and the constraints that can be on a class, you know, Koshla comes from a middle class background with the family run pub. And then we have this other character, Davy McGowan, who's kind of from the bottom of the tier in society with his unemployed dad. And he lives in a primarily Protestant area. And she kind of, she has a fondness for him. And, you know, there's an expiration of class there. And then we also have Michael, who she falls in love with. And he is from, you know, he's a barrister and he's from a completely different, another tier in society. So I think Kennedy does that really, really well. And I loved that. That was one of the things that I loved about the novel is how she explores that there and how there are constraints in society. You know, even today, it still exists. Yeah, she certainly doesn't shy away from the whole issue of identity. You know, Koshla's family have done very well for themselves. There's very much, she feels as if she shouldn't be in some places or she doesn't really fit in. I mean, she's at a party with Michael and she aligns herself with the Mrs. Coyle character who cleans for some of Michael's friends' waves and who does work as a cook. And she aligns herself with her because she sees her as being the only other Catholic in the room. But there's a bit of dishonesty with Koshla. You know, Koshla's a well-paid teacher. But she aligns herself with Mrs. Coyle as, you know, well, I shouldn't be here either. No, you shouldn't be there. You're only here because you're using this as an excuse to have an affair with someone else's husband. So there's a dishonesty with Koshla as well, you know, because, you know, she's not given the Irish lessons to Michael and his friends because she needs the money. She's using it as an excuse to be with Michael. That's their cover. So there is a wee bit of, you know, Koshla tries to maybe play the class card, but she doesn't always have to. It's really to set her own agenda. Sorry. I'd say this, like the 70s was a really interesting time for women in society. And, you know, Koshla is an educated person. She's been to university. So I think she's in that area of exploration in her life because I think in the 70s, men had a certain power over women. You know, we find that with them, with her job to, you know, there's constraints there with, there's a priest and the board of management. It's a Catholic school. So yes, I think that was an interesting time period for women and how she is kind of maybe on the border of, you know, exploring something else, which she is usually constrained with. But she does make the whole issue that, you know, Michael and his friends fetishise the Irish language and fetishise her as an Irish language teacher, but she's not there because she needs the money. And that's not why she's doing it. So I don't always think that Koshla's motivation is very honest, you know, and she kind of feels as if, you know, I'm just here as like a novelty or a token for them. You don't have to be there. But she's a very, very interesting character, a very intricate, very honest character. Yeah, you see, an interesting character is you say, like, I don't feel any real sympathy for Koshla because, you know, she knew exactly what she was getting into. And again, like, Michael was a Protestant. So, like, you know, that was sort of a no-no area. And a friend of her father, he's 30 years, her senior as well. What struck me about the whole thing was, is Gina, her mother's willingness to just let her go. Gina, we realize later in the novel that Gina knows that there's something going on. She doesn't even stop her. It's like this, everyone's heading towards a car crash and no one can, you know, not a literal car crash metaphorical one, but it's like Gina doesn't even try and save her daughter It's like, you had mentioned earlier, Koshla's saying we are all doomed. It's like, Gina can't even stop her. She was very young, but she's very, like, Koshla, at the end of the day, she was 24, so she's, you know, she's moving into womanhood. She's still a girl as such, so she is a very impressionable character. And I think at times, Michael, I knew, annoyed me in certain parts, the way he had this power over her, and she was so impressionable. I think he ordered food for her. They go to Dublin at one stage in the novel, and he orders food for her. And that really bothered me and stuck with me because, you know, she's trying to become her own person. And, yeah, you forget that sometimes in the novel that she is a young girl. But there's something about her where she wants, she wants to be part of that society and that social circle is like that post-colonial mindset where she wants to be in their circle. She knows she doesn't belong, and she'll do, you know, she kind of nods politely. I mean, they know she's not his wife, and she knows she shouldn't be there, but she goes to the parties anyway. You know, there's that kind of... Koshla has this kind of sense of apology. I'm here, I shouldn't be here. She says to me, this is called, you mustn't thank very much of me. But she doesn't say that to any of Michael's friends' wives, or any of Michael's friends. She's a really, really multifaceted character. Yeah, she is. Different layers. Her characters, I thought her characters were very well-developed. And we've talked about Koshla and Michael and Gina the mother and then this little Davy. You know, I felt that I could see these people, like Louise Kennedy made them real people and her descriptions to, you know, of scenes. I remember she was describing, maybe it was the 12th of July, and the flags were like Nuremberg. What a wonderful description, like, and you could just picture the Hitler and Swastika flying in Germany and the time that she was holding Michael's Aaron Jumper, she was leaning against it, and the pattern of the Blackberry stitch and all. I thought, I can actually see that now. I thought that was a very, very good technique she had. Would you agree with that, Tina? Yeah, she's certainly a very accomplished writer and it's very easy to read her writing as well. I can give you a wee snippet from the first chapter, just like giving anything away. It's very accessible. Anybody could pick this up and take something away. There's no potential, just with the novel. I don't think so anyway, and I think it definitely is accessible to everyone. Yeah. So I'll give you a wee snippet from the first chapter, and this is in 2015 and she's looking at a piece of art. A white figure on a plinth, chalky, sarcophagal, a shrouded look about the face, features indistinct. The body is oddly sexless, though it is male. There is breath in the torso, bulk at the chest. From the waist up he looks peaceful, sleeping, head resting near the bend of an arm. There is something not right about the pose though. His limbs are splayed awkwardly, have not been arranged. The girl begins to speak. The work is from the 70s, she says. The artist was moved to make it when her friend was murdered. While the almost classical composition is a familiar representation of death, the disordered configuration is shocking, hinting at the violence of the movement of the subject's murder and the chaos of the hours that followed. She gives us her friend as every man, yet his rather untidy bearing makes him human. Someone touches her arm. It's the man with the small glasses. Miss Lavery, he says. Do you remember me? She writes in a very, very vivid way. I steal your word, accessible energy. It's not a challenge and read. I know neither of us could put it down, but her descriptions are very, very vivid. I think people can learn a lot from this as well. Even the historical elements of it, if you were very close to the border, so we're familiar with what went on and you've experienced it and we've experienced our own things, but I think from someone outside of Ulster and down south, we could definitely learn from this and they will from the vivid descriptions embedded within the novel. It reminded me of a time about 10 or 12 years ago I was sitting in Dublin in a cafe and there were no seats left in the cafe and a woman asked me if she could sit down beside me and I said, sure, no problem. And she heard my accent and she said, oh, you're from the north. And I said, well, I'm from Donegal and she said, I would never go up the north. And I questioned her about it and I said, why is that? And she said, because of the bombs. And I said, well, things have changed. Yes, that's part of our history, but I just couldn't believe that people still think that this is what happens. The gravity of what happened in the 70s, you know, it's... For so many, it was a no-go area. And for some people, they haven't really shaken off that mindset, which is a shame. For my 21st birthday friends, we're coming up from college in Galway and they wanted to know what they bring. No. Out of ten, what would you give it, Tina? I'm going to go with an eight in hindsight. Had I finished reading the book today, it would probably be a ten. And hindsight, just with the rush of the ending, I'd just feel as if I felt a wee bit wanting. And yourself then. Well, I am going to give it a nine. I loved it. And I think the whole... I think for me, the moral of the story is that despite all the turmoil in life, everybody is trying to live an ordinary life and love, you know. So I just, yeah, I would give it a nine. I loved it and I think she's a fantastic writer and I think she's going to be sitting up there with some great Irish novelists. Yeah, more to come from her, for sure. Yeah, loved it. And I read it on the bus going to Dublin there one day and I actually was crying at the end of the tears. And I said, if anybody sees me now, they'll think there's something terribly wrong. Definitely tear-jerker. Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you ladies for taking time out to come in on this cold night. And as I said, we'll get you back again pretty soon for another review if you're willing to take part. We'll look forward to it. Thanks, Jane.