 Good evening and welcome to tonight's episode of the Private Property Podcast. I'm your host, Zaman Donga Kumalo. This is episode 14, and we are currently on day 34 of the national lockdown. Now today we'll actually be covering something that a lot of people are very likely not aware of when they're buying their properties. And we'll be looking at the five hidden costs to home ownership. Now a lot of us know of some of the costs that might be involved when we're buying our home. And just last week we were talking about some of the costs in selling your property. But not many of us are aware of some of the costs when you already have your property and you essentially need to keep with the day-to-day running of your particular property. And joining me this evening to help us understand some of the costs in home ownership is Marius van Rensburg, who is a partner at Schindlis, who's going to help us. And we'll also talk about some of the costs as you buy your property. Good evening Marius, and thank you so much for joining us this evening. Good evening. Thanks for having me. Now maybe perhaps before we even start with some of the hidden costs, as I mentioned, I mean there are probably three big costs when you buy your property. And of course maybe let's help our viewers at home understand some of those costs. I think something that's probably right up your alley of course are the attorney costs that give a lot of us quite a lot of headache. If you can just take us through the two, I'll say attorney costs associated when you buy a property that's a bonded property. Yeah, so I mean if you know that there are essentially two sets of costs, the first set of costs is your transfer costs and the second set of costs are your bond registration costs. So if you buy the property, the conveyance gets appointed generally by the seller and that conveyance attorney is the transfer attorney and that attorney will charge and will send you an account for transfer costs. And those costs are different to the bond costs. So if you're taking a mortgage bond, the bank is going to appoint a bond registration attorney and that bond attorney is going to raise a bond cost which is separate from the transfer cost. And I think it's important to realise because there are a lot of buyers who who they get the second account from the bond attorney and they didn't realise that that account was coming so they haven't planned for it and it does create a problem. A good agent will explain to you what your bond costs are and what your transfer costs are. And what we advocated, Schindler's, is that get the agent to give us a call, give us a call, get a pro-former account and actually look and see what those exact costs are before you buy the property. I mean, most conveyances will happily give you the costs. And then also remember on your transfer costs, it's, you know, people get terminology confused. They try that, you talk about transfer costs in campuses and number of things. One is the conveyancing fee and the other one is the transfer duty and then there's a bunch of disbursements like deed office charges, that kind of stuff. So it would be nice if the conveyances took the entire transfer costs. We don't, we only take a conveyancing fee and that conveyancing fee is based on a tariff that's issued by the law society every year. And then of course the transfer duty is what you pay to the government in, it's a property tax that you pay when you buy the property next base on the stallion scales. So yeah, I think it's massively important to know exactly what those costs are upfront because, you know, the higher, the higher the purchase cost, the property, the more expensive it gets. And, you know, one of the things that you're mentioning is that when you're buying a property, you might know of the transferring attorneys, but you hadn't actually budgeted for the bond registration attorneys. And when I shared in one of the episodes with our listeners at home that I was in the exact same predicament. I mean, when I bought my first property, I actually bought two properties at the same time. So in my budgeting, I don't budgeted essentially for two attorneys, not knowing that I actually had to budget for four, because the two bond registration attorneys that I was also going to deal with. And it's such a substantial cost when you are not aware of it, that it could potentially derail the purchase of a particular property that you're interested in. But staying with the transferring attorneys and perhaps even the bond registration attorneys, are these amounts negotiable? Because I mean, sometimes here people say, you know, yes, they send the pro forma invoice, but it's, you can have a conversation with them around potentially getting a decrease on them. How likely is it really that we can get a decrease when having a conversation with the attorneys? It's the, it's a, it's a potentially unpleasant conversation for us to have. Yeah. I can imagine. Like anybody who does a job, you know, you'd like to be paid your full fee. But you know, there is a reality and, you know, there are pushes and pulls within our own markets. And yeah, I mean, if you ask for a discount and you justify it, it's, it's possible that that you can get a discount. You know, generally speaking, you know, I mean, to give an example, if I receive a transfer and I also receive the bond, it makes it easier for me to discount the bond fee. And in some instances, you know, the banks want you to discount the bond fee if you bring the bond and the transfer together. But that depends on the, on whether that can happen or not and whether the transfer is on the bond panel. But yeah, you know, the other basis on which I think is a good basis to discount a fee is, is if, if I get two transfers. So for example, if you are selling a property and you're buying a property, then you certainly Maurice, you know, if simplest does both, both transfers, I'm really you double business, can you give me a discount? And then yeah, we can work out discount. And we also, we also try to track a practical approach to these things. There are certain people like first time home buyers who we want to help. And we'll, we'll discuss an account. So, you know, I always say, if you don't ask, you won't get. So it's, it's worth asking. I mean, I remember when I bought, I wasn't aware that you could even ask for a discount was only in later properties that I learned that, that pro forma invoice is not set in stone. So you can actually ask for a discount. And of course, if you've got any questions at home, around some of the costs associated with home ownership, you're more than welcome to send them through for Marisa myself to discuss. And let's look at perhaps another substantial, well, depending on how you look at it, potentially big cost that goes with owning a home, which is of course the home owners and the life insurance when we spoke a little bit about it offline. But I mean, I was saying that I know with some banks, they may sometimes require you to have insurance on your bond or even a life cover on your bond, if could just, you know, speak to us about those, those two types of insurances and potentially the reasons why banks might insertion instances require us to have them. Yeah, well, that's, I think that's, that's really distinguish, first of all, between the two kinds of insurance because they are very distinct and different insurances. You know, the first car, the first insurance is your home owner's insurance over the property itself. So, and it's really important to, if you're buying, if you're buying a property, let me sell this again, and let's drill down two different scenarios. One is you're buying in a sexual title scheme. And if you're buying a sexual title scheme, your insurance over the sexual title here that you're buying is included in the levies that you pay monthly to the body corporate. So what happens is that the body corporate ensures the entire sexual title scheme, and your levies that included, you don't need to go and take out additional insurance. If you're buying a freehold property or a property within a class of development, well, then it's slightly different. And then you need to take your own insurance. Now, if you take out a mortgage bond, the bank is going to want you to take out want proof of the insurance that you're taking. So, you know, with whichever bank you go to, they can't make you take their insurance. So that particular bank has an insurance kind of that they deal with. They can't make you take the insurance, and they don't, but they give you the option. So you can go and take out whatever insurance you want. But if you're taking a bond, the bank is going to want to know that there is insurance of the property. And the reason for that is, if the worst happens and the property burns down, then the bank can't pay, the property gets rebuilt, and the bank's security is there again. So that's, you know, that's the actual homeowner's insurance. And of course, you're not taking a bond and you're buying a freehold property. Well, you know, please be sure to go and take out your own private insurance, because it's important. You know, if you're not taking a bond, there's no bank just to make it a bigger to take insurance. But of course, I think it's a good idea, you know, that's my personal opinion. Take out the insurance, have it be. So that's your first kind of insurance, which is your insurance over the property itself. But the second kind of insurance that comes into play is the life insurance. So that means if you die, you're in a car accident, the life insurance policy pays out and potentially settles your bond. So, you know, a lot of banks, you know, they don't make it, it depends on the instruction, it depends on you and the client, it depends on what you're buying. Banks may make it a condition of the bond that you take out life insurance. And again, you know, you can sometimes go with their own in-house life insurance, but you have the choice of getting your own life insurance. You know, we're talking about this offline. I think, you know, I personally think insurance is a good thing to have. But, you know, if you want to avoid the experience, it depends on what phase of life you're in. You know, if you are 25 or 28 years old and you're buying your first property and there's a bit of equity in the property and you don't necessarily have a family to look after or spouse, you know, maybe you can forego the luxury of having the insurance. If you are maybe a bit older, you don't necessarily have to be, but if you're, let's say, 35, 40 years old, you have a spouse and children need to support. You know, it's, you know, and for me personally, I have life insurance over all my properties and all the bonds. And it gives me a great amount of comfort to know that if I'm hit by a bus and I die, once I can get out of lockdown, of course that is, at least my life insurance will pay out. And the comfort that that gives me is that while my state is being wound up, my bond gets paid off. There's no pressure on my family. They can remain in the house. We don't need to sell the house to pay debts. We don't need to worry about the bond installments. It's paid and it's settled and that gives me a lot of comfort. So I personally think it's a, it's not a bad thing to consider. I think, you know, one of the things when it comes, whenever I think about insurance and particularly life insurance, and we're saying earlier conversation is around, I mean, so I'm unmarried, no children, got multiple properties. And sometimes it's a part of me that thinks, oh, perhaps there's no need to necessarily have life insurance. But then you think about the, the admin of, you know, God forbid I'll die sort of touches wood and, and my state is being wound up and how that's going to potentially affect, you know, my family. So in as much as I may not be married or have children, they still essentially admin that goes with my particular estate. So you also want to ensure that the loved ones that you've lived behind don't have to deal with the anxiety of having to find out about different bonds or properties and you know, whether equity in them and those kind of things. And if anything, I think for us, certainly as a private property podcast, it raises the question of us having a conversation around estate planning when you've got a portfolio and different ways we can navigate it. I mean, I know there's been quite a keen interest from our viewers at home to even look at the different ways of ownership. So are we going to be buying prospective properties in our personal names or in our companies and understanding what's the implications of it being owned by, you know, in our personal capacity or it's owned by another legal entity and how that potentially has an impact on how your estate gets wound up in the event of your Now, Marius, we do have questions coming in from, from listeners and viewers at home. And one of them is coming in from a south hill in Tonbeni who asks, who are points on the attorneys? Do I have the option to use my own attorney? So that's a pretty ferocious one. Well, you know, I mean, I must be honest, I don't see it as contentious. I think that the, the, it's a case of often acceptance. The, the, the way it works here, I know and certainly in Johannesburg is that it's, it's the seller's right to nominate the conveyance material. Once the, once the seller's, once the conveyance material has been nominated, it must be understood that the, that the conveyance, so they act on the instruction of the seller, but you know, conveyances, we're not litigating, we're not fighting with each other. We, we, we, we're going towards a positive end and we have a legal duty to, to observe the interests of both parties in that process. And I know I have colleagues overseas who think this idea of having one conveyance for both parties is, it's absolutely terrible. But you know, in my view, it really does actually to, to work out. That's not to say that, that a buyer can't make an offer to purchase on the basis that they make it a condition of the sale that they utilize the services of their own conveyance. You can do that. And if the seller agrees well, then you, you know, you can utilize the services of your own conveyance. In regard to, to the appointment of the attorney for a mortgage bond, well, you know, that's, that, that depends on the banks. The, the, the, the various banks have different policies. There's certain banks who as an absolute matter of policy will never allow the transferring attorney and the bonnet to be the same. There's other banks that, that will allow the bonnet transfer to be the same. And there's other banks depending on, on what panel you're on with the banks, you know, you can do it. But bearing in mind that in order to do the bond, you have to be on the bank's panel. And there's, so each bank has a panel of attorneys. And the bank can only appoint attorneys or will only appoint attorneys on their panel. But the bank generally reserves the rights in the final analysis to appoint their attorney, but you may well influence it here and there. And, you know, Maris, another question coming in, this one is from Holiness Lindy Wellela, who asks, you know, the question is around, I'm interested to know if you're planning to buy a property cash, you know, what are the, the implication in terms of attorneys? Because I mean, we've been speaking a lot about bonded properties. So they essentially want to know if you're buying in cash, so you're not going to the bank, then as far as attorneys are concerned, which ones would you essentially be paying for? Yeah, if you're paying cash for the property, then you don't need a bond, you don't need a bond attorney, and then you just have a transferring attorney. So, you know, it's as simple as that. If you pay cash, there's only a transferring attorney. And what you would then do is you have an agreement to sell. Your agreement to sell would provide for you, for example, to pay deposit and then the balance of the purchase prices in cash as opposed to mortgage bond. And the convincing teams would guide you as to how to present guarantees. And there's two ways to do it. You could either pay the money into the conveyances trust account and they issue guarantees for you. And all what you can do is you can use the money in your own bank and ask your bankers to issue a guarantee for you. But the conveyances and the bankers work together to work out, you know, to issue those guarantees. It becomes a technical issue. But yeah, if cash don't need a bond attorney, then you only pay transfer costs, which are the conveyancing fees and the transfer duty. Okay. And another one, and of course, another cost that's involved with home ownership is, and that people potentially, you know, aren't mindful of as we're buying your properties is levies. And that's a levy amount that, of course, you typically tend to find when you are buying into a sectional title. Yeah, I mean, you know, when you say to when you tell me the word levies, I think of two scenarios. One, one is if you're going to buy into a sectional title scheme, you know, as a member of a sectional title scheme, you're a member of the body corporate and the body corporates charges levies. And then of course, the other kind of levies you've got is you've got a levy for a home owners association. So if you buy freehold property within a class of development or within a home owners association, then you're going to pay a home owners association levies, which are slightly different to normal levies, but they still levy nonetheless. And my advice to people looking to buy properties, and this is my advice to estate agents as well, is when you're going to buy the property, ask for a copy of the actual levy statement. Because what we find is that if there's verbal discussions around, you know, I say to you, well, you're the seller, say, what is the levy in this complex? And you said to me, it's a thousand red. Then I buy the property, I move and I get my first levy statement and I see, well, the levy is a thousand red, but there's a godly for 200 red, there's a DST levy for another 150, then there's a security levy for another 300 red. And before you know it, I'm at 1,000, none of a grand. Now I've budgeted for 1,000, I'm paying 1,000, none of a grand and I'm unhappy. So, you know, get a copy of the levy statement and see what the actual levy is. And that applies for sectional title and for, and for, you know, cluster developments. In each case, ask for the levy and find out. So for example, you might buy into a, into cluster development, and now you're going to pay the home owners association a levy. But the, the home owners association provides you with water in that levy. It's just a useful fact that you can understand and you can again try and plan for your purchase. You know, once you've taken ownership of the property, what am I live? What, what, what, what, what are my costs going to be? And of course, then the next item would be rates and taxes. And, you know, sometimes I struggle with this one because obviously different areas have different amounts. You know, different municipalities would usually charge you based on the size of that particular property. Who would we be getting this information from? Because sometimes even the state agents don't know. Well, I think that the, the, the same principle applies with, with levies. Ask for a copy of the, ask for an actual copy of, of the rates and taxes account. You know, for a state agent that's got some useful information is the seller in arrears is the seller in arrears. But the most important information we get there is what are the actual rates and taxes payable on this property. And you know, over my years as a convencer, I've come across people who have sold, they've owned a farm for five, 10 years. And they tell me, no, there's no, there's no rates and taxes on farms. These rates and taxes on all properties. I also come across some people who buy, for example, sexual toddler, right? And what they do is they own the property for three, four years, but they never receive a rates and tax, a rates and taxes account. And then this happened. They never get cut off. They never get cut off because, you know, the, the, the, the electricity and water is charged by, by the lady, by the body corporate. So if you didn't pay your rates and taxes in a field property that eventually you don't cut your fuss, but in, in sexual toddler, people, people have this, this way of thinking that things, well, I haven't received the rates and taxes account for my sexual toddler, you know, therefore I don't have to pay. And when they sell the property to get the surprise that there is an account, it's in the ether somewhere, we find it, give it to them in the bigger areas and then they must not pay. So rates and taxes, it's a reality. And it's one of those costs that you must factor in when you, when you're buying a property. And again, you know, I'm all for, you know, I think all good estate agents are all for letting the buyers know, what are the, what are the costs of owning this property? And the way you do it is by looking at the actual rates and taxes account, and you can see what those rates and taxes are. And of course, the other thing that the rates and taxes account may tell you is, and it's not definitive, but what is your electricity and water consumption? Which is also another cost to consider. Yeah. And today I'm actually exposing myself quite a bit. That was another mistake that I made early on in my property journey where I bought into a sectional title. Everything is going well. Maybe four or five months after having bought, I get an SMS from COJ saying that my account is in areas. And of course, I'm going crazy thinking, what are they talking about? I've been getting my levy statement from the border corporate and I've been paying it diligently every month. But now I'm being told I'm in areas only to find out that an account had in fact been created. It's accumulating all this money every month. And luckily I was able to, firstly, luckily I'm glad I got the SMS. Because imagine we've accumulated all these years, all these years. One day I'm thinking of selling and, lo and behold, I owe many, many thousands of brands in rates and taxes. So that is definitely something that happens when I bought those first two properties I wasn't aware of. And I think I'm also just quite grateful that that SMS came in. I think it was only 2,000 rands in areas. So it wasn't quite a big amount. So it was easy to just pay that off and then set up the account online and then be able to pay it off on the monthly basis. Yeah. I'll tell you something that I've experienced personally as well, which I think is a mistake sometimes people make, is that you own a property and you receive your monthly accounts from the City of Johannesburg each month. And what you need to do is look at your electricity and look at your water readings and look and determine are they estimate readings or are they actual readings? So for example, at the moment where the property where I live, I can see that I'm paying the actual amount due on water. But I can also see that for the last couple of months I'm paying based on estimate readings for my electricity. And the estimate that the City of Johannesburg is estimating is lower than it actually is. So what I'm actually doing is I'm actually paying in additional funds into the account every month because I know in six or seven months time, or it might be 10 months time, maybe 12 months time, maybe 18 months time, the guy from COJ is going to arrive outside my house and he's going to take a reading on that meter. And I'm going to be in for a shock in that I'm going to do the actual readings and I'll have a massive bill to pay. So it's worth actually studying your account every month and making a sensible determination if you pay the right amount. I mean the City Council is on perfect, I'm afraid. Yeah. So I'd like us to just address some of the comments and questions coming in from our viewers at home. We've got one from Lena Davis who says, I've been a victim of Libby's that just balloon once I've taken ownership. So thanks for the advice. It's a pleasure, Lena. Seems like we're not the only ones, certainly I'm not the only one who's gone through an experience like that. And then another one from South Yale, Ntombé, who asks what fees are involved when your mortgage is paid up and you want to cancel the mortgage? Okay, yeah, that's a, let me deal with the second question first. Once you understand that when we register a mortgage bond in the deed's office, what happens is your title deed gets endorsed with the mortgage bond. And if you do a deed's office search, you're going to see the endorsement of the mortgage bond. So if you pay up the mortgage bond in totalitarian, you don't owe anything on that bond, the registered mortgage bond will still be endorsed against the title deed. Okay, and what people do is people have a choice. You can, you can either leave it like that, or you can, you can ask the bank to cancel the mortgage bond because now you don't owe them any more money. Now some of the advantages of keeping the mortgage bond in place is it acts as, providing you have an access facility, it acts as quite a nice way to access instant money very cheaply, very effectively over a 20-year period and normally at a pretty good interest rate. And the second thing, of course, and of course, you just be careful there because, you know, I don't, you know, some people cancel the bonds, they don't want to access the bond because it's not paid off. And that's a, that's a personal decision. The other reason people keep mortgage bonds alive is because often the, the insurance is linked to the mortgage bond. And what they do is that they just keep it alive for that. But to the extent that you don't want to that bond, you want to cancel it, you know, what you could do is you could write, write or call your bank, ask them to, to cancel the bond. The bank will then instruct a bond cancellation attorney who's an attorney on their panel and that attorney will cancel the bond in the deed's office. And what that involves is taking your mortgage bond, taking your title deed, getting a consent to cancel sign and actually lodging in the deed's office and canceling that endorsement in, in the deed's office. And for that, you know, if I recall correctly, the attorneys will charge about four to 4,200 rand as a cancellation fee and then it took the deed's office charges. So that, that's how that process works. Okay. And, and of course then, another question that, or another issue that could potentially be a cost of home ownership. And this is before you probably take full ownership of the property is the occupational rent. If you could just take us through occupational rent, what it is for viewers at home who may not be aware of it? Yeah. So occupational rent is if you enter, enter an agreement to sale and you've now bought that property. Okay. You, you, there's normally a clause that deals with what is the date of occupation of the property. So in many instances, instances, it's going to be occupation on registration or transfer. But sometimes the parties circumstances are such that, you know, you, you have a date of occupation. So you may enter an agreement to sale now, occupation will be in a month's time or six weeks time and that date is then prior to the date, prior to the date of registration. Now what this means is you're going to move into the property before you are the registered owner and you will then, you will then pay the occupational rents, which is in the contract. So the first thing to note is in my view, when you sign the contract, you should stipulate what the occupational rent is. Don't wait to negotiate at a later stage. The second thing to note is, you know, then there's often confusion while what amount of occupational rent should be insured and people are tempted to say, well, my bond is going to be X. So I'll make the occupational rent that or the seller will say, well, my current cost of the property is this, I'll make it that. I think those things are, those, those ideas are not correct. What we should do is we should make it a market related rent. So we should ask our agent to advise us, what is the market related rent for that property in that area? And that's the rate that we should insert because I think that's the, that's the fair way to do it. And also remember that if your transfer is delayed for an extended period of time, if it's too high or too low, one of the parties will be kind of prejudice. So a fair market rent clause is, is I think the fair way to go. I mean, I've seen in quite a lot of OT in a lot of offered to purchases that a lot of the times they make it 1% of the purchase price. And I mean, I haven't seen many parties trying to negotiate it. Sometimes they're okay with it. And sometimes it depends on whose favor it typically works towards, but that seems to be a figure a lot of people are relatively comfortable with. Yeah, I think that if you have regard to our current rates of market one percent is pretty, pretty high. It might, it might, I mean, take for example, a one million round property. I mean, you might get a seven or eight or eight and a half thousand round rent. So you're doing 0.8, 0.7, 0.8, maybe 0.9% if it's a great property. But if you, if you buy a property for six million rounds, you know, generally speaking, a six million round property is going to have an occupational rent of 40 to 45,000, maybe 35,000 grand. So in those cases, you're probably looking more to 0.5, 0.6% of the, of the purchase price. So I think, you know, in my view, though, the 1% is not always going to be the right, the right way to go. Market related is probably better and also have regard to the actual property buying the purchase price. And Amaris, before we, you know, we wrap up our conversation this evening, what are the other costs? Would you want our viewers at home to be aware of when it comes to home ownership? Well, I mean, let me just run through a few of them. And I think, you know, one of the biggest costs that people don't think about is the mortgage cost. So when you take out a mortgage bond, right, the bank sends you a sheets, which is a quotation which is sent to you in terms of National Credit Act. And what they do is they actually tell you what is the capital. If you pay this bond off over a period of 20 years, what is the capital and what is the interest portion that you're going to pay over that period of time. And that's, and that's an, that was that that's obligatory in terms of the National Credit Act. And I think it's worth looking at that because that's a cost of owning a property. And then of course, incentivizes you to pay down as much as your bond as quickly as you can to avoid Amaris, I must say, it's quite an intimidating document, especially, you know, if you're new home buyer, not particularly aware of it, it's so thick. There are so many terms and I know towards the end, they've got the the terminally do a terminology breakdown. But I must say, I mean, it is quite intimidating. And I hope that shows like this help our viewers understand that that's something that's coming. So you're almost shouldn't be too overwhelmed when it does come. And perhaps another episode will even go through what you would typically expect in a grant like that. And some of the major things perhaps doing an explainer, because I know that so many people who've gone through that process for the first time, often speak about how intimidating it is and how some of the terminology, you know, the words, but you don't really understand the full effect of what it is that you're reading. Yeah, you know, at Schindler's, what I do is I remind my team all the time that buying and selling a property is actually quite stressful. And just because we understand the process doesn't mean the client does. So I mean, I encourage my team to be as patient and as clear as possible. And I encourage sellers and buyers, you know, speak to your originators, speak to your agent, speak to your conveyance, pick up the phone, you know, make a call, ask them to explain this process. Because remember from Mark, one of you as a conveyance, the better I can explain the process to you, the more comfortable you're going to feel. And generally speaking, the easier that transaction is going to run. So I encourage people to ask questions and also the intelligence. I mean, you know, people are there to deliver a service to help. And I find people are quite willing to take time to explain to people once they've asked those questions. Yeah. So you are actually going through some of the other costs. So that first big one is of course, the mortgage cost. Yeah. You know, then of course, you know, you've got things like maintenance of your property, you know, there's always a certain amount of maintenance. And if you want to maintain the property to its standard, then there's going to be maintenance costs. So that's just maybe something to consider. The other cost you should consider is depends where you're buying is there's sometimes there are additional security costs. So you may be moving into a free old house or a cluster, you may want to upgrade yours to a security. You also want to look at how much the cost to have the on the sponsor, those kind of costs. You know, there's also things like the improvements, you know, over time, people want to make improvements. And, you know, whether you want to see that as a cost, I mean, you know, maintenance is a necessary expense that you that you need to spend in order to keep your property to standard and value at which you need to. And but you know, people also want to make improvements. So you may move into the house and you want to cool it down so you pay for air conditioning or you heat it up. So you want to put in heaters. You know, there's also a little cost that people don't expect. For example, you know, you need to clean your property. So it's going to cost you excellent cleaning costs every month in terms of detergents. You arrive at the property, is there internet facilities? Well, maybe you need to have incursive costs in terms of internet. You may also have some safety improvements. You may move into a property where there's a pool, you want to put up a security. So I think what you need to do is look at your property holistically, look at the obvious costs and then also say, right, let's think about these additional costs. And there are certain costs like the improvements, which over time, and as part of improving on your own investment, you know, you could look at doing those at your own pace. That's perfect. Marius, thank you so much for joining us this evening. That is Marius van Rensburg, who is a partner at Schindelsen. I'm packing some of the costs associated with home ownership. It's not just the bond amount. There are other additional costs like we've spoken about this evening. Thank you very much for all your comments and questions at home. And of course, if you want to read up on any more tips, whether it's for buying, selling or renting, you can always go to www.privateproperty.co.za until tomorrow evening. I'm hoping you're staying at home and staying safe. Good night.