 This is the live podcast broadcast of this week in science We're back once again to fill your heads with science But this is the pre-show where I remind everybody that this is And not edited so there may be blips and blurbs and burps and stuff But hopefully those will get edited out for the real show The real show is this real show I mean the podcast that gets edited by Rachel wonderful Rachel Let's see. So Before we get started hit the likes the subscribes share it with your friends Let's beat those algorithms by making everybody know that the show is on And that you are here and that you'd love to have other people come and join us Wouldn't that be great? We'd like it too Uh, I'm missing anything else. I don't think so you ready to start the show Justin. Let's do it Let's do it. Welcome everyone Starting the show in three two This is Twist this week in science episode number 947 recorded on wednesday october 11th 2023 What's in your head zombie? Hey everyone, I'm dr. Kiki and tonight we will fill your heads with cyber hands coin flips and friendly female frogs but first Disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer The characteristics of violence are empathetic to any cause and the tactics in any conflict are quickly shared by enemies It is an agreement of the justified the righteous and the vindicated mindsets all encouraging conflict all escalating destructive actions And while no people on earth harbour hatred above safety wish death upon a perceived enemy above the health of their own loved ones Conflict can be placed at any doorstep Bombs can fall in homes schools places of worship men with guns will kill civilians unintentionally or without care The justified the righteous and the vindicated mindsets Condemned the destructive actions of the other and legitimize their own The fate of any people depends on the actions of leaders The mindsets of those in charge the tactics they use whether it is to protect the people or not When leaders target the people their own or of another nation When they slaughter the innocent to further a cause they invite reprisal retaliation And vengeance upon their own people upon themselves intentionally and without care history is full of examples of how conflicts begin And hard lessons on how they end While the characteristics of violence are empathetic to any cause The characteristics of empathy are not And neither is This week in science Coming up next Coverings that happen every day of the week. There's only one place to go to find the knowledge I seek. I want to know And a good science to you too Justin and everyone out there. Welcome to another episode of this week in science And I know there are many people now who are grieving and who are concerned and who are looking at the news with Desolation and It there's a there's a hard time our earth and our humanity has been continuing through it for A while and it seems like it's going to keep on going but we hope that twists with science and A bit of optimism and fun can bring you a little bright spot in your day in your week And we are glad that you are here with us right now And our hearts are with all of those And with you out there Starting this week off With the science I've got so much I brought stories about colors and smells Birds galore a few coin flips some sourdough bread And um, I don't know maybe some benu stuff. I don't know some fun stuff in there Some benu I don't know what that is Yes, you do You know, benu, you know, benu You know, benu You do okay. What do you have for the show? I'm now just finding it. We can't wait to find out what it is. I already know Uh, I have got a an update on an amazing prosthetic hand How climate change has now finally gotten too far Oh, no Might be affecting future beer CDC study on depression accidentally finds Smoking isn't all that bad You're just looking for rationales. Okay, keep going No, it's it's it's one of those things where like Like you go through the study you're like, oh, okay They found all this interesting stuff and you're like wait a second. Look at what is that? What is that doing there? It's kind of they don't mention it, but I will okay and then uh Well, how to tell when a frog isn't into you Okay I don't ask the frogs if they're into me that often, but I guess, you know, if I were that prince down by the pond, you know, and I Trying to find out. Hey princess frog you into me And she's like no turn into a frog and be with me and then she's like, haha jokes on you I'm gonna be a princess again. So anyway, okay I think that was a shrek movie, but wait, we're moving on the scenario. You found the You found the frog and then turned by a witch From a royal child into the frog and you're like, oh, this is my prince This is my chance and you kissed the frog and then it turned into it out to be the princess and then you're like That close I almost found the frog of my dreams As we jump into the show here I want to remind you all that You can subscribe to this week in science as a podcast all Places podcasts are found pretty much look for this week in science twist We are also live streaming and those videos are also available on the youtube facebook and twitch platforms We do wednesday nights 8 p.m. Pacific time About is when we regularly start and if all this is just a lot, you know, go to our website twist.org That's where we have show notes and links to things and you can Anyway, lots of information there. Let's do some talking You ready for the science? Yeah Yeah All right first up tonight on my list of things to discuss is asteroid benews sample return and Last week we talked about nasa's mission and how they had worked to get a craft to the osiris rex to go to This asteroid and boop it and grab some samples and then come back and it landed in utah and the desert and then they took it to jpl and they've or john Anyway, they've been A johnson space center in houston. That's where they are and they have been taken a look at it very carefully because they don't want to Contaminate any of the samples, but they noticed when they first opened it up that there was a layer of a very dark looking sooty Material and they were like, ooh, that's interesting. And so of course immediately they were like, let's take extra care because we don't want to contaminate that and we can look at that right away and so they've been peeking at it and so they released information This week that they took what they call a quote-unquote quick look as an analysis of this material With scanning electron microscope infrared measurements x-ray disc diffraction chemical element analysis And also you x-ray computed tomography To produce a 3d computer model of one of the particles What do you think they found in this? initial look In the dust and rocks of an asteroid That we call benu What are you lucky penny? No, no lucky pennies. They found carbon and water Water Carbon and water so The researchers are very excited. That's what people are mostly made out of. Yeah organic material exactly and so this is that kind of gift That's going to keep giving they're going to be looking at the samples for the next two years They're going to be preserving at least 70 percent of the samples for future research because they know that We don't have all the technology now that we might Need or you know, that might give us all the answers at some point in the future And somebody might come up with a better question to ask at some point in the future So nasa is going to be sharing some of these Regulate bits of regolith with other agencies Jaxa the canadian space agency Probably with the esa as well more than 200 scientists around the globe are going to be looking at it And it's very exciting that These the dust and rocks and this is just the stuff that they'd like that you It's the stuff that you want to sweep out of the way that is in the front of your fireplace or whatever It's not the stuff that's in the fireplace It's just the little bits and pieces of dust and this has already given some very intriguing information about the prevalence of The things that make it possible for life to exist in in our solar system I'm wondering what they're going to do at the end. Are they going to give like they did with the moon rocks and give a bunch of fake asteroid dust to diplomats Are you aware of this story I had no idea but that's really Like the moon rocks that like We gifted to like all these different countries or you know diplomats had encased In their offices, whatever here. I have Mars regolith simulant. I have a jar of it. It's simulated mars regolith I keep it close to me here Apparently they gave out a lot of fake moon rocks More moon rocks in circulation Then we brought back from the moon. Yeah, that doesn't make sense Anyway, this asteroid's exciting because it's 4.5 billion years old The fact that it had all these building blocks means that yay Solar system had all the stuff there in the beginning And this is the biggest they say the bill nascent nelson nasa administrator says This is the biggest carbon rich asteroid sample ever delivered to earth just based on this very very premature Analysis But of course when bill nascent said it he was like He's had to it would take four hours because he started from the beginning of time And kind of looked to the stars Sometimes they weren't stars Maybe all right I just every time that man speaks he rambles for like a half an hour or more Before getting near the thing he was supposed to talk about And and there's somewhere in the background and wonder he's this either You know, he's he's every administrator at nasa has Gone to some sort of hr training camp where they were supposed to learn how to talk like carl sagan And none of them can do it and it comes off always just like none of them are Cringy anyway, I'm glad I got to hear the short version for you You're welcome Anyway more work will be done Tell me still that it's 4.5 billion years old because it's like the age of our planet Yep, but you know and that's that's the age our planet forms. So it was but does that mean like The stuff that was in our solar system formed at the same time as the planet like that seems weird It feels like it should be Older like the stuff that made up the earth should be older than the earth. They shouldn't have just formed I mean granted the earth should be one thing for the time that it's been one thing But no, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no the formation of the earth. So that's about the same time There was all this stuff going on. Yeah Yeah Yeah timelines in space sometimes don't add up as well as I would like Yeah, uh, yeah dense cloud of Interstellar gas and dust. So the stuff is older, right? The cloud started congealing and going like oh, we're gonna be dust that lives together and the dust attracted more dust cloudy cloudy gassy gassy and then uh, things started turning into plumpies and other things and Then boom, they're planetoids and planet isimals and then crash boom And now asteroids and planets and who knows what'll happen next So for the audience who is short history of the solar system by for the audience who's a little bit more advanced understanding of cosmology This is actually how I need things explained I didn't get it right I understood what clumpy things meant and what the Bing Bang stuff was all right now. It's clear Okay, tell me about the future of hands Because It's not even the future. It's the now the present Okay, but it started well this story at least starts 20 years ago with a farming accident or a swedish woman lost a good part of her right arm her hand and well up the form She survived But endured some excruciating phantom limb pain Now this is quoting here. I felt like I constantly had my hand in a meat grinder Which created a high level of stress and I had to take high doses of various painkillers conventional prosthesis Attaching things were uncomfortable Also because of where they were placed They were unreliable and they were of little use in her daily life This changed when she received a bionic technology That allowed her to wear a much more functional prosthesis. So This one has a few differences over previous Sort of just mechanical attachments First of all, this is bone grafted Into place. So there's a piece that gets a titan probably a titanium ball that's porous that is Allowed to for the bone that exists to graft onto it So it has this base that if you are watching the the video stream shows the insertion of these sort of Uh Kind of look like posts that are coming out of the the stubby bit of the forearm And the a prosthetic device that's going to attach to this now The next portion of this Is pretty intense. They took nerves That would have extended Down the arm to the hand and they attached them to these probes these posts and probes and so through a combination of a little bit of early AI stuff, but a lot of actual simulation training Where this was just plugged in to a computer that had a simulated hand and by concentrating on Manipulating that that hand on the computer screen It was sending signals that were actually connected to that hand down the arm And that hand began to move and then the prosthetic is attached and that prosthetic device Is actually very functional so The interesting thing here, which Probably could not have been predicted, but once it happens Makes totally sense like you can predict it retrospectively Was that her phantom pain Has been severely reduced Right and of course part of what the phantom pain is it's the nerves That are supposed to be that are connected to a part of the brain that is monitoring hand Is the hand is missing and so these nerves are misfiring. They're miscommunicating. They don't know what's going on By restoring the hand nerve connection It seems to have reduced the the phantom limb pain because now There's a real albeit bionic hand in place Some of the the there's a video out there of the sort of things that we're looking at here pictures that we're looking at that It shows some pretty amazing manipulations like picking up a penny Which you know prosthetic hand Is not usually that level of functionality, right the amount of Of sensory engagement it would have to have would be would be really impressive Feel the penny. I have problems picking pennies up off of a table. So So there's the skeletal attachment, which is so one step you it's solidly has a a connection point That's integrated to the body that's not rejected And that is more comfortable Secondly, there's this nerve and muscle reattachment that rearranges the source of motor control information to the prosthetic device And yeah, according to This allows the user to carry out 80 percent of activities of data left There's also I think I put into her operating zippers on a travel bag or something like this like the The level of control is pretty amazing And so is that and since just so and still so is the like as much as that makes sense now that She's explaining that she's feeling less pain because the phantom limb is not as phantom and the nerves are connecting to activities again It's still something that I don't know. It could have been predicted Another thing that they made an important conscious effort to do Was to make the hand portion itself Both repairable so it's removable repairable as opposed to you know being totally connected to the thing all the time It has a connection point But it's also customizable So that somebody could go, ah, this hand is too big this hand is too small I don't like the color of the hand that you've given me. Can you give me a mobster claws I would like a six finger so that I can Practice being like whatever it is Uh, you know and in the video the thing just sort of clamps on and then away it goes operational Really in genius level of prosthetic device And the number of people that this is going to be able to help is is is huge Just for the ability to navigate the world to be able to do Things that able-bodied people take for granted. Um, I do wonder How long it took for her to learn how to use the prosthesis how What kind of training is involved in this kind of Uh in this type of device I know, um, we are becoming more and more cyber day by day, right? We have all sorts of Uh devices that we are are implanting into our ears into our eyes Um, but these prosthetic limbs are going to be I think are going to be very Fascinating for all sorts of reasons and I thought some of the things that that was really interesting too Is that they showed somewhere in there a training session where the the stab is sort of plugged in to uh, basically looks like through a usb to the computer, okay And is connected then to the simulated hand on the screen and because the controls of the prosthetic limb and the controls of the simulated hand Can be indistinguishable. It's like your digital signal, whatever. Yeah, right That I like that it it translates so you can do all sorts of training in a simulated environment You don't have to always have the thing physically on to be Engaged in training, which I thought was really fascinating because that That also means if you were talking about something like prosthetic legs That you would be able to be bedridden and training Before you had to go out and attempt a walk with the new leg or uh, you know, so you could get so much training done Before you know, yeah, the physical ability to spend Six hours a day on the new prosthetic leg or legs Uh might be a barrier To that training, but if you could do that in a simulated environment, you can do this six hours a day And I could see this also I could see also, you know, this is going to be the kind of surgery connecting the robotic limbs to the nervous system, right the the sensory nerves the motor nerves For the hand the leg whatever area like there are big nerve trunks But then there are also little tiny nerves that are involved in some of the stuff going on so You know, is this going to be the job of neurosurgeons of the future or is this going to be robotic surgery? robotics robotic surgeons making us cyber people because there's so much more I guess accuracy that can be achieved with a robot Then it's interesting you mentioned that because the first time I encountered Uh the titanium mesh bone grafting Sort of device was a hip replacement They were being designed for hip replacements and there was a robot That was being trained to chisel out the area where this would be implanted in the leg to to attach to the hip because uh You're trying to see if the robot would be More efficient than a human surgeon with a chisel Yeah There are many there are many things that now's a long time ago. So this technology this technology you talk about talk about uh, you know Talk about the future was yesterday That titanium bone graft stuff has been around for over 30 years, you know, so a lot of what they're using Yeah, yeah a lot of what they're using already exists Combining it now. It's no longer. It's no longer a coin toss As to whether or not something will work Is that it is that a segue it is so when you think of a coin toss Do you think our segways are getting are getting worse Mine are just silence Oh, is it my turn for a story? And yours yours get like yours I pause that because I'm like Is this a segue? Is she trying to move on? What's happening right now? 20 years in the business and still haven't figured out how segways work. You're welcome. Oh my goodness. Okay Uh, yes, so this is a story of coin flips We use coin flips all the time, right? choose who's going to Kick start a game in football soccer, whatever every uh, People who don't understand probability Think that they might win coin tosses or something, you know, we learn in statistics and use coin tosses as an example of binary probability that each Flip has its own probability of a 50-50 Results so yes, and it's not like it changes every time you flip the coin. No, it's always I always win heads I win tails you lose ready Well, there were some researchers who have published a paper on the archive dot org pre-print server and it is compelling in it's uh in In what they came up with There have been over the years people questioning That 50 50 probability of the coin flip And whether or not it really is 50 50 so these researchers, um found some work From 2007 that suggested that coins Are more likely to land on the side that they start on Than the other side so because of the way coins are if you flip a coin, it's going to go up And then come down again and maybe not flip around so many times Unless somebody is really skilled at making a coin flip around in the air And that's what this team did they tested a number of coins really 48 people flipping 350 757 coins minted in 46 countries Checking how many times the coin landed with the same side up That it was launched on and they found that it's About even but not not quite there's a slight bias So it lands with the same side up as when it was launched 50.8 of the time and there is individual variation Between different coins so the design of the coin actually impacts How many times it comes out heads or tails so people who have been using weighted coins as You know con artists for years to be able to con people out of various bets They they knew what was going on a long time ago But anyway The bias is slight what they pretty much came up with is that if If people actually were using coin tosses to determine an outcome that People who know how this works might make more money than people who don't If they make give an example a thousand times of flipped Betting one dollar each time with winning so if you lose It's zero two dollars if you win because you got the whole thing you should Over a thousand coin flips win 19 dollars So get on out there everyone use the slight bias of the starting of the coin to help you out I had somebody Do a double or nothing bad with me on coin flipping that started it like It was like for like, I don't know 20 bucks They just were like a gambler and I was just like, okay fine And then I but I won and so they're like, oh double or nothing. I'm like, okay, but like I didn't even want a gamble I don't like it's not my thing. Is this one of those stories where you didn't want a gamble and then you won everything anyway Yeah, and I kept waiting. No. No, I just insisted it somewhere We just keep we'll just keep going till you till you win So you can do the nothing because it was like at some point. I think the guy owed me like $1,800 or something Double or nothing. I'm either gonna I mean, you're either gonna buy me a house Or we'll just end it at that point. When do we stop? When do you? It was like a crazy number of I got like six or seven in a row or something like that anyway Yeah Anyway, I find it fascinating that this uh I don't know this pillar of probability and statistics that we've used for so long that Yeah, there's messing around with it. And I think that is kind of you know that coins are They are impacted by physics I mean this is you can think of a coin toss as a schrodinger cat kind of thing and we can still use it as the 50 50 kind of Example because of the independence of each toss, but it depends Potentially on which side it started on so maybe we should use a different method for how we choose who's gonna start different Games or I think our and Laura has a point. What about aerodynamics aerodynamics is gonna be part of it You know else is gonna be big make a big difference temperature and humidity also Are going to so like we have to redo this study We have to redo this study with with variable humidities And variable temperatures and at variable altitudes and it very like stop it It's fine. Yeah for as far as unless somebody's actually trying to like land a craft on the moon with coin flips It's it's close enough Yeah, it's fine. And it all sometimes it depends on the people That's what they say they say here the data revealed a substantial degree of between people variability in same-side bias anyway Oh I I love that story because I feel like I've I've heard that study Done, but it's never been done. Really. We're just great A thousand times and I feel like half of the time They came up with one result and the other half of them they came up with the complete opposite But it really depended on the starting conditions, didn't it? I would like a beer Justin Tell me about the future of the show is over And then oh, yes Climate change has gone too far It is now threatening hops cultivation in Europe the noble hops The giver of beer bitterness the sacred source of beer roma and flavor is at risk According did you just say beer roma? Like beer roma beer like beer aroma, but one word Oh, it's not beer aroma There's some words you're not supposed to write when you write them you can get away with it But then when you talk them then it becomes like really difficult Yeah, so like Anyway Anyway hops according to a study published in nature communications This is in trouble And it says here in the the opening of this here European varieties of hops are prized and used by brewers around the world which I had to stop the story there because Nearly half of the world's hops are actually grown in the pacific northwest Over where you are right now in the united states 70 of those are grown in one county in washington state And most of what they grow winds up in west coast ipas And most of those a lot of ipas here. Yeah, most of those get west coast ipas get consumed along the west coast of the united states And so they are the world's biggest hoppy beer consumers Hey And people really like their ipas here and there's the micro brews and Oh my goodness a lot of craft beer and a lot of really hoppy beer and I love it. Okay So with the rising temperature and less rain taking place in europe Are reducing yields and the concentration of compounds that provide beer. It's refreshing Tastes and tartness in europe, which is a big deal because europe already drinks egregiously low hopped beer The profiles are terrible to the point where an american west coast ipa Lover cannot find a decent pint of beer in europe I mean unless you want a pilsner or A colch or you know, there's some really great beers or water like at that point, you know Why not just drink water? That would be the difference It's really like it's like even the ones like you go to a brewery like I found a brewery I found a craft brewery They have an IPA they have something they're calling west coast IPA and then No It's it's a lie. It's not it's a whole lot of they used a quarter of the hops they needed to Do A quarter of them. They don't understand it. They don't get it. They don't understand beer in europe. I'm sorry Okay, anyway So they don't understand beer in europe all the uh all the hops are being grown in washington They're getting worse over here The researchers observed a trend in analyzing data from five sites in the check republic germany, slavakia Which along with poland are the primary hops growers in europe germany alone is i think 32 percent Of the world supply of hops So if they go down All hope is lost for europe yields fell between 9.5 and 19.4 percent at four sites And we're stable at a fifth and this is uh comparing the last 20 years to a period 30 years before that so The actual hops yields From where they're planted are have dropped 10 to 20 percent Meanwhile The concentration of bitter compounds alpha acids within the hops decreased Extrapolting the data the researchers predicted dropping yield of between four and 18 percent more between And and the alpha acids could drop between 20 and 31 percent as temperatures rise and rainfall Is impacted so the horror of it all is that droughts expected to increase in central and southern europe It will be necessary to expand the area of aroma hops growing by 20 percent under the current prediction area to compensate for the decline Which is just trying to maintain The the the status quo which again is pitifully pitifully low So it's gonna mean less Yeah fewer hops which they're not necessarily using a lot of them already But then uh, it's less bitter hops. So it's milder beer flavors Maybe people will be like hey, I like these european IPAs all of a sudden who are not who are not IPA drinkers Yeah, the bitterness goes away suddenly more people like beer I have a feeling that I see only good news here. I have a feeling like they won't even notice here Like how can you distinguish between the beer they make now and water? It's very difficult. So brewers can try to modify their methods. It says to adapt To reduce bitterness and hops which there is a solution. Look, okay The molecules that are required to make the hop aroma and the hop bitterness Are able to be manufactured by biotechnology team and berkeley did this we talked about this Five six years ago We can stop manufacturing all those Life-saving drugs and enzymes and things and stuff. They're concentrated on hot sleep We're we're gonna concentrate on the yeast the bacteria Yeah What we'll we'll fix a yeast step. So it's producing the molecules just like the berkeley group did or maybe they've got their companies up and running now somewhere Or you just turn to them if the brewing industry Trusts the science the future can be better with biotechnology the future of beer in europe Can be better It could be I think They're not gonna buy it from the united states because it's too it's too. It's hay bales of this stuff. You got to use Make beer. So it's not like it's nice. She doesn't ship easy Except in bottles like that You can do extract But it's manufactured at home But these kinds of maps we're seeing you know wine is changing where it needs to go beer is changing like the hops this is We're looking at climate change affecting where crops are going to be able to grow And I think bringing up these things like beer coffee wine you know like Wheat even you know where is All the wheat gonna come from like where's where are we gonna get all the food that we need? as climate change advances And if you can focus on things like beer or coffee Things that people really enjoy in their lives. Maybe that's when people start to Take notice and turn to solutions. So We're not gonna think negatively about What's gonna happen to beer? Washington state is probably gonna continue to be pretty rained on Um, you know, so Yeah, the hops would be great here either that or they're all moving to canada. Well, it's wild though that like What is it? So 70 of 44 percent? I'm not good at math, but I think that's about 30 ish of the world's hop supply Is from one county in washington. That's pretty incredible. So that microclimate whatever that is Needs to not change Very important Very important Speaking of ecosystems that change. Let's talk about sourdough starters Yeah, what is the sourdough starter by the way? We just leaned in like what? Well, you know because it's one of those things I I get it's like it's uh Is it a yeast or just bacteria? Like what is uh, what is the sourdough starter? I actually don't know I know it's some living thing It is it is It is a got really into the pandemic It's not just during the pandemic people have sourdough starters that are generations old um, they're like people generations or yeast generations people generations People generations that's a lot. You divide this you it's a constant living organism that grows and that you are supporting It's microbial in nature. You do have to feed it so that it it can be maintained. So there are You know sugars or malts or things that you give the microbial community depending on the kind of starter that you have There's not just sourdough starters. Microbial community. Yeah, it's an ecosystem Yes, you got microbes and so like people talk about oh the sourdough in san francisco It's special Because of the microbes and there have been studies that have been done that have shown that the microbes In the bay area because of the fog and all this they're different in the starters and in the breads that are made In the bay area, then they are in the central valley then then then they are on the east coast or in italy for example however You know, it's we know the microbes are essential to the The taste Of the bread that comes out. However these researchers Uh, and north carolina state university erin mckenney who's an assistant professor of applied ecology there So I love that she's applying ecology to sourdough bread, which I think is just awesome She she's our new work focuses on the role that different types of flower play In shaping the microbial ecosystems And so what they found in their work Is that the flower that's used it's not just the microbes the flower that's used to feed the starters Determines which bacteria Live in that starter ecosystem and thrive and that influences The aroma or the flavor that a sourdough produces So in this story what they've done they created four sourdough starters. They had 10 different flowers So they had 40 different starters all together They had five flowers including gluten Unbleached all-purpose flour red turkey wheat emmer rye and einkorn Five gluten flea free flowers teff millet sorghum buckwheat and amaranth And the starters were kept in the same environment and fed once a day for for 14 days Did you know you have to feed your starters like every day? It was one of the things it's like a plant and I could I had a starter at one point As a child and it died because I just couldn't I I I let it grow for a couple of days and I was like take it away. I can't keep it alive It was like the early tamaguchi or whatever. I I Yeah, yeah, yeah dead That's the way I've always been with like, uh Yeah, uh starters kombucha plants cats Yeah So they started them out, um with you know the same starter then they added The different uh flowers and so they were measuring ph and how much growth the community to the height of the starter And recorded the aromas that were there. They did barcode sequencing for the bacteria And they discovered that uh, even though they started similarly They were very different by the end of 14 days And they found they had different microbial communities. They had different nutritional Components because of those microbes being able to take advantage of different types of nutritional components in the flower And so there are all these different things happening And so they said in their research Amaranth sourdough produces an aroma that smells almost exactly like ham Which I think that's great rye produces a fruity aroma buckwheat has an earthy smell and um They found that rye flour fostered Way more bacteria than any other kind of flower With 30 types in the maturity and then buckwheat was the next um, and Uh, they found seven of the 10 flowers included high levels of bacteria producing acetic acid Anyway, there's all sorts. There's all sorts of stuff in this study Which is just really interesting because it can influence the way that bakers address Uh, they're baking of their of breads and does and what they're creating is specifically when they are including fermentation and and microbes in that equation and there are probably lots of You know people who have this in knowledge just internally because they've been doing it for so long and probably they're bakers out there Who are like dove course amaranth sourdough smells like ham, you know But um, you know, I think this kind of work is very very interesting because it gives us a lot of uh, A lot of information about the succession of biological ecosystems and communities And uh, it tells us more about the food that we eat as well It also be interesting to like, uh, I mean this was fascinating actually to to learn that the the food Is going to determine a sort of evolutionary biome within that that that starter um, we also interesting to compare globally That you were talking about how like around the world. There's different kinds and new san francisco's got this Italy over here's got that and just see if How diverse these starting starter groups are They're very diverse. I yeah work that has been done has shown a lot of variation from place to place around the country and especially with some of these These grandmother starters that have been handed down between generations of families Um, there there's some interesting stuff in there. So for all you sourdough people out there Enjoy, this is a an open access article too. So if you're into the science of uh, what they did and how they did it You can find it on pier j. We will have the uh, we will have the link on our website There's a lot more to dig into and they help, you know, how to make how to make your own starter. Which is very cool You too can make starter and hopefully not kill it like I did Good gracious This is this weekend science. Thank you so much for joining us for another episode We are glad that you are here with us and we hope that you'll be back again next week Oh, wait. No, we're not done with the show yet, but this show happens on a weekly basis and that is all thanks to you Yes, you out there you help keep the show going If you head over to our website twist.org you'll find two different ways that you can help us out You can go to our zazzle page, which has Birch and ice cool stuff that we've made through the years you can any purchase Gives money back to us so that uh, we get a a some royalties there and are able to put that towards the the show Additionally, we are a patreon supported show Which is you the listeners being patrons of the show you can click on the patreon link join that community and Choose your level of support. So 10 dollars and more per month We will thank you by name at the end of the show $15 and more per month you get some stickers and then I and and we thank you by name And then I think there's t-shirts involved at different levels. There's all sorts of stuff You help You help every week. I'm so glad that you're here Thank you for being here All right, so we should now come on back to some more this week in science with Dr. Kiki's bird corner Tweet tweet I'm gonna talk about birds going off course You think about birds going off course when they're migrating usually with respect to Things like hurricanes or massive weather systems that might push them off course, but that is not Always the case and in fact some people have At the University of michigan Have done some work. They just published in the proceedings of the national academy of sciences correlating Space weather anomalies with Differences in long-distance migration okay, so What What kind of space anomaly? Like what is What are the birds are they even from this planet? What's going on? What's going on our birds even real? Oh, yeah, I'm gonna jump into that one a little bit Yeah, so we know that birds we've talked about it a lot on the show researchers trying to figure out how they navigate using The magnetic field of the earth and we've gone through all sorts of ideas through the years and now they're pretty sure They're these quantum effects in the retina of the bird eye and there's it's much more Interesting and complex than we ever thought Yeah, but it's very sensitive to shifts in magnetic fields What would shift the magnetic field of uh, of the earth? That could possibly affect these birds migrating at night Earthquake right no you said space anomaly space anomaly. Yes chat room got hard Josh sun flare Sun flares. Yeah, so uh, this research determined that solar flares big ones that uh, that bust out and come into contact with our magnetic field impact the Migration of these animals and they found over time that there was a disruption in the number of birds that were that migrated during these periods of time when Solar flares were impacting the magnetic field of the earth. There was a 9 to 17 percent reduction in migrating birds and those that did migrate Didn't do it as well Especially when it was overcast and they didn't have other stars and other visual cues to be able to to look at to be able to Help their migration so It's pretty an interesting study using some very interesting methods to be able to kind of Dive into this idea of how animals on the planet can be affected impacted pretty seriously by The solar system not just you know a storm here on the planet or people or you know, whatever The salt the sun solar flares impact magnetic field those impact the birds if the birds aren't migrating when they're supposed to migrate They're gonna not end up where they're supposed to end up. They're going to miss chances to reproduce They're gonna miss food sources, you know, they don't leave at the right time They might not end up at the reproductive site at a good time to be able to find a mate like it's really going to impact birds reproductive success over time But apparently, you know, they have this magnetic Migration that they use so it's successful most of the time because solar flares are not an all the time thing Causing them problems often enough to impact them through natural selection and other evolutionary effects so I don't know it impacts them And what what makes one bird go? Yeah, I can make it. It's kind of like it. Yeah, my gps is a little wiki-waki But I can do it It's fine and another bird just goes nah, I'm gonna stay at home and wait this one out I uh During a really bad rainstorm was I heard a flock of geese flying over And one of them was like honking And it's the only time I I really felt like I could understand what a what a bird was saying Here I am here. Here are you here. I know what I heard was what I heard was I told you I told you it was gonna be a big storm. I told you we should have flown south the way you go, but oh, no Nagging all the way Yeah, I know It could have also just been like, hey, hey, I'm here. You here. Hey, I'm here. We're here. I'm the leader You hear me? We're in the rain. Okay I don't know I saw I saw swans flying here in Denmark the other day Uh It is the they have they're very weird Because they have like goose already has a long neck swans neck is even longer Yes, and it just looks like they're flying with a very straight neck rigid neck sticking way out and it just kind of looked like I just imagine them being like Oh gotta hold the neck up gotta hold the neck up gotta hold the neck up like the whole it looked like exhausting I'm sure they have Adaptations to make that they're built for it makes them easy Uh makes it easy. Anyway space weather. Da da da affecting birds. Um, I love what the some of the Methodologies that they use not just banding birds and watching but also using Next rad radar stations in the central flyway of the u.s. Great Plains They decided to pick the Great Plains because it's like a huge flat thousand mile Flyway from texas to north dakota. No mountains in the way. It's just like a big flat area. So Really the birds shouldn't be getting lost or having issues there and so And they shouldn't have any also bias from The magnetic field of the mountains or you know radar off of mountains or you know coast lines or other things Is they're doing radar scanning And they yeah, look saw lots and lots of birds but Not as many during the solar flares You want to have another conversation about birds? Sure. Yeah, sure. This is dr. Kiki's bird corner tweet tweet Anyway, uh peregrine falcons peregrine falcons are wonderful predators You see them in cities often. They will be nesting on top floors of skyscrapers. They're also, you know, they have they're they're very Uh widespread in where they're able to uh to live seem like they're pretty smart and these researchers Who just published their study? Uh, this is out of simon frazier university Pub published their study in frontiers in ethology He said he has often been puzzled when watching raptors by aspects of their behavior Like they're perching Or being Like really making it evident. They're present like not hiding just being like hey, here I am and There was a theoretical paper A long time ago. It was the wolf mangal model suggests that predators might use false attacks to tire out their prey or to force them into making bigger risks to get away And nobody's really been able to show it And so these researchers were like, let's try it with birds and peregrines. And so they uh in boundary bay in british columbia canada They used They looked at a big flocks of birds that are called pacific dunlens and these these birds they nest in flocks. They uh use the the The tide to determine Where they're going to flock and how they're going to flock and it shows they started looking at the hunting behavior of these peregrines and they saw that The dunlens were at greatest risk risk of predation just before and just after high tide And so they were flocking the most during the riskiest period but They also use this over ocean flocking That they do like there there are there are constant benefits to win the dunlens decide they're going to flock together Dunlens flock over the ocean. They did that on 68 percent of the observation days For about three hours a day if they didn't they chat. They're not flocking So that's going to be energetically costlier and it's not as safe so They don't flock at night when the falcons don't hunt either What was going on with how the dunlens were using? They're flocking and what the peregrines were figuring out. Well, these researchers deemed it Based on the data that these that uh the peregrines were were absolutely Tiring the dunlens out and had been pushing them to take risks and to To use their energy in a less effective manner to not flock when they should be flocking to get them away from the flock at at certain times and so the predators the the The peregrines themselves were using prominent perching and soaring. They were like coming in giving loud calls other signals to say that i'm here i'm a i'm a predator to try and change the dunlens behavior And so, uh, yeah, so it's persistence hunting. It's persistence. It's not just Oh, the peregrines are there hanging out waiting for the lone bird There's actually Some kind of strategy to it. There is it's there's the persistence to tiring out particular prey Getting them to make bad decisions Wow That's why Yeah, and so they think that there's probably a lot more of this that if it were looked at, uh with the right Right observations that we might find more of these false or non-serious attacks Used by by predators like, you know, maybe Lions sometimes don't take down a prey immediately. They chase them for a while and then they go away And they they they they choose ways to Uh To get the prey to make a poor decision Yeah, I think you could see it in lions Wolves wolves the pack hunters but the pack hunters. There's usually a there's usually one that does a chasing While with another one waiting at the other end of that chase to then join So there one is job is to kind of tire it out and then the other one's job is to attack and Orca are very strategic. They probably use all sorts of Think things like this But that is it was pretty wild that you know To to see that because we consider that like the Like the early advanced human hunting was persistence hunting Where we would chase prey around the savannas until they just got overheated from a lack of being able to sweat And just fell over and then we didn't have to like We didn't have to like, you know get into a Into a real match with the wilder beast just went open and poked it after it like couldn't run anymore I wonder how uh, you know How climate change is going to impact stuff like this like, you know as uh as Title areas change, you know the amount of the water that's there in the area that's Safe or not safe for different species the periods of time during seasons that are safe or not safe They say here so this over ocean flocking of the dunlands is safe but energetically expensive to Compared to traditional roosting largely replaced And the so the the over ocean flocking largely replaced traditional roosting in boundary bay As the presence of wintering peregrines rose during the 1990s and so that the there's this predator Prey interaction as well. And so what we want to see is over time. How are the dunlands going to Shift their behavior or will they shift their behavior? according to the The peregrine impact. So there's interesting, uh, you know interesting questions here peregrines or predators using false attacks How to pray start to learn the signals of what's a false attack versus a real attack And do they take it? I think if something's turning it looks like it's going to eat you you take every one of them Seriously, and you play right into their hands, maybe but uh, the what's the alternative? Just get eaten the first time. No, it's no good Yeah Yeah, but I know tactics tactics not just waiting for the bird to fly by there's actually tactics going on here you know, uh seagulls if you ever go to a Uh, a beach where there's always people or a park where there's uh seagulls There's always people here not far from where I'm at right now is the Copenhagen zoo And when there's certain places there where if you order food They will warn you about the seagulls When you're getting your food because they will swoop down and and grab food out of the hands of the The patrons of the zoo or getting their their snacks. Yeah, uh, they become very good, but uh I think they're just doing attrition. They're just They're not trying to tire people out Although, you know after a while waiting for the dive bomb to buy seagulls I'm I'm likely to give up. I'm like just have fine here. Take this Leave the rest for me. Let me have some of it Just always have yourself under an umbrella hide from the seagulls Hide from the peregrines. They're all coming for us in the end Justin what do you want to talk about right now? Oh, what don't I want to talk about right now? Okay, so Which one the first uh I think because uh I think it was Eleanor in the chat room Said something about persistence hunting is how some of us get dates still Ha ha ha well persistence dating Is a thing in the frog world Do tell this is a new study that shows contrary to previous assumptions female common frogs can reject males and have developed a variety of Nate avoidance behaviors to do so this is uh A study that is published in the open journal open access journal royal society open science Is there explosive breeding species of frogs or toads? Are those with a very short reproductive period? Breeding that is limited to just sometimes a few days or weeks in early spring during these points of time Hundreds or thousands of the animals may gather in a pond Females have to be old enough to breed So they don't they don't they're not often able to breed every year But the males still gather at the pond every year and the males outnumber the The dating males outnumber the dating females by a large large margin So the males are not very choosy apparently They will persistence cling to anything that moves This is this is from this article. I'm reading It will cling to anything that moves with great vigor Not me. This is this article. I'm reading but it's fantastic. This is the best written article. Where is this? Justine steiner of the uh, Leibniz association Which I found via fizz.org Well written if another male is caught he will give a release call to indicate the mistake to the grabbing male Mistake was made Yeah, it was previously thought that the females in these spawning aggregations could not defend themselves against male coercion But it is It is not in common for many males to cling to a single female and form a mating ball And this can lead to death of the female nature's bad so The most common behavior used by females to escape the male's grip was to turn around her access to researchers also observed females uttering two different calls that mimic the male release call Oh That's a good one And then you made a mistake. I made a mistake. Oh, yeah, and then I must have made a mistake The final most astonishing behavior that they witnessed was tonic immobility Just freezing fainting death Yep, female stiffly extends her arms and legs away from the bodies and remains immobile Until a male releases them So now I'm curious to know if previous observations of female frogs dying during these mating events were mistaken If there was actually if it was actually they were witnessing this effect that's just now being reported in this study And just assumed thought the female was dead also fell for yeah, also were fooled But yeah, one way a female frog Tells a male frog she's not interested in them pretending to be dead I mean that it's a good signal In any animal species one person fainting death usually means two humans Hey, hey, there was a nice-looking lady. I'll go and talk to her and you go over and then just all of a sudden they're like You're like, oh no, they died. Oh gosh, I better Go back to my end of the bar. I guess it's too bad They're dead And then later you see them there while you're on talking to some fella and you're like, wait a minute What you're not dead My last story of the night CDC study on depression and mortality Okay Finds that wealth exercise and smoking reduce risk of death For those with severe depression So this is this is a study by the u.s center for disease control and prevention Not the not a likely one of those groups that you're going to find being lobbied by big tobacco big socialism Or big exercise The the study looked at participants From 2005 to 2018 they had 23,694 participants Mean age of 44.7 Depressive symptoms were assessed using a patient health questionnaire that's validated screening instrument for measuring depressive symptoms And they they delved into some of the numbers largely they were looking at for the connections between Major depressions and heart health What they found was mild depressive symptoms were found in in nearly 15 percent of participants While moderate and severe depression systems that symptoms were Common as 7.2 percent For all cause mortality That's that one of those catchalls that it just says that somebody died The adjusted base model found mild depressive symptoms were associated with a hazard ratio of 1.42 42 percent increase I guess and the rate of death or how quickly death comes about Compared to those with no depressive symptoms. So just even mild depressive symptoms Uh had a big effect moderate to severe had a base level hazard ratio of 1.78 so More likely to almost twice as likely to die and I would assume a 10-year period Because it didn't it didn't say air so so uh for One of the things they found is like yes, the cardiovascular disease mortality Uh was was higher for those with with severe depression heart health was definitely A there was increases in risk of heart attack or heart disease moderate severe depressed symptoms had a hazard ratio of 2.21 When correlated with with stroke so big correlations found there between negative heart health and depressive symptoms One of the things they accidentally found is their lifestyle factors Like smoking physical activity sleep health were identified as important mediators Now they don't they mentioned smoking there as a mediator of the association between depressive symptoms and mortality But they they don't go into it into description, but in the data What was wild is that? Unlikely to be recommended of course, but smoking caused the most significant reduction in mortality from all causes In both the mild and moderately severely depressed groups Based on all of the different things that they had looked at So this is still This is still 1.65 hazard ratio, which is versus the control group which is still high But it's lower than the base rate of 1.78 for those All causes of those with the severe depression So it did reduce By like 10 percent The chance of death of all cause For those who are severely depressed Yeah Followed by physical activity So just barely 1.67 There's 1.65 Which exercise was less protective to this really severely depressed Better than doing nothing But not as good as smoking So if you do both Which I don't know if they have that group Physically will do a go work out and then go smoke cigarettes Yeah, you might be fine Or dive something else maybe cancer We all dive something eventually, but The study suggests addressing depressive symptoms and associated risk factors could be important for reducing Burden of depression and its impacts on mortality The other thing that was found here also Huge correlation across all groups was the association of depression mortality and level of poverty Yeah The greater the poverty level The more likely you were to have heart problems In the depression group And to die of all causes so So while the CDC is sort of saying like, you know, this is it's a This the study suggests that addressing depressive symptoms and associated risk factors could be important for reducing the burden of depression and its impact on mortality But you know then like okay, how do you handle The the depression related mortality data of incoming inequality as a as a public health initiative Yeah, we need to eliminate income inequality Well, yeah, it's obvious It's obvious. Yeah, everybody gets good basic universal healthcare. Yeah, and doctors should prescribe smoking to the depressed patients No, it's going to be It's could save their life. It's probably it's self-medication It's better than exercise. I see you. I see you finding this in here individual scores. Yes Individual scores. What do you mean? Well, I'm looking at I'm here. You had to pull up the data like just I'm looking at the I'm looking at the data. Yeah, Justin can't be right No, because it's doing no no no no like I read it and I like had to re re re re read it Because like no am I reading it wrong? Okay, so character. This is this table here is just characteristics across Symptoms that's me. Yeah. Yeah But characteristics across depressive symptoms. Uh, there's It's the next alcohol use is very uh related to it anti-depressant use is related to depression. Um, nicotine exposure Uh, it has a uh, let's see 1.77 is the ratio compared to something like I don't I think alcohol use is something like 51 Yeah, alcohol use turned out to be really bad alcohol use So that one is just uh is That's just so how many that that's the cohort that's the cohort. Um, let's see all But then that gets all normalized All this year and waited for the next table the next table is the one you need to look at Okay, here we are. Okay. I'm going to share this tab instead for everybody Um, this is the one let's let's zoom into this one. This is uh depressive symptoms from for death from all cause um And you have variables that's by the ages. Yeah. Now go down by the by the associations So it's a little further down. So we're gonna go down. So Diabetes poverty index and actually was I didn't even mention diabetes actually having diabetes For whatever reason may do less likely uh to die of uh of uh Heart problems from uh related to depression Yeah True that Yeah, uh But keep going down everything Poverty is huge. Look at poverty poverty is killing people Yeah, it is And this is death of all cause I I would assume that the suicide rate would actually be higher amongst wealthy Uh people who are depressed because I figure if you're like depressed and rich You're like nothing will make you this better But if you're poor in depression, you'd be like, ah, that's because I'm poor If I win the lottery everything'd be fine. Did you find it? Did you oh wait you skip it? There's so there's so many different. There's there's so many different tables here Is there a third table? Maybe it's on the third table. Maybe I was confused Here we go. This is the one. This is the one where they've got the base rates at 1.7 base model Plus tobacco whatever it is. So the variable plus alcohol use And it increases it by 0.78 mediating effect 3.27 base model and smoking is similar to alcohol No, it's but look at it. It's 1.65 a little bit less. It's the lowest. It's the lowest on the list It's lower than exercise physical activity 1.67. Yeah, you're right there. Yeah Interesting I know the cdc did not mean to put 1.67 for sleep health Smoking or poor sleep It's all there All cause more mortality fascinating I think this is fascinating. I think there's something going on there. That's uh self-medication Or it you know some something psychosocial that's potentially interlinked with other factors But so many things are Well, I think I think part of I think part of what it would be having uh been a smoker Is that It's indistinguishable A nicotine fit like needing nicotine is indistinguishable from Being hungry Being upset You're just like, ah like I'm depressed. Oh, I'm hungry. No, I just need to smoke And then you go do that and you think okay now I've done that and then you feel like a little nicotine Black so nicotine actually doesn't make you feel good. It takes away pain It takes away the nervous pain that the nicotine dependency creates Yes, it's a horrible treadmill of Nervous system paralysis and waking up and then being over agitated and then getting knocked down again But it's I think maybe distracting Uh from other things. Yeah, maybe there's stress relief in it. Maybe there's other stuff Stress relief and stress cause but it focuses it on the the cigarette. So even if you're Stressed about real life things For a moment. It's all about that nicotine and then it takes your mind off of the other thing Yeah, it's still not look over here. It's still not good It's it's well Bring back up to do it. We just not look at a chart It showed that it saved Lives under the right condition No, it is higher than base level mortality is bad. It's lower. It's increasing mortality. No, go back. It's lower No You're saying compared to the depressed. Yes, just don't be depressed. You could go say that. Okay, if you are If you are severely depressed. No, no, we're gonna this is data and yes, it's data But i'm not giving any recommendations to people disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer Please speak to your doctors and Yes, this is data, but i'm not i haven't had time to dig into this enough and think about it enough But i'm sure other people smarter than me are if you're depressed, please get help from a doctor Please get help from a therapist. Please find ways to treat your depression Additionally Yeah, if we could impact Poverty that would have a huge impact on all of the above So get it if it wasn't the cdc his own study In a cohort of 26,000 people that we would be like, well, you know more research needs to be done always does but It's there in the data It's in the data, but we are not the people to give recommendations No, but we would be look at the data and we would we would be if exercise was the best one We'd be like so there it is everybody go out and exercise. We have no problem recommending People go sleep was a sleep with bad sleep was bad. It was bad also. So go go get some sleep Yeah No second thoughts. I know I did that just because justin Jesus And also we need to move on to the last study of the night It's not about smoking although sometimes You might smell cigarette odors Wherever you are Sometimes maybe not but anyways of researchers just published in a In frontiers in psychology this last week on their study to see how Odors influence color perception And so we've talked about these interesting Interesting sensory abilities where some people like see Sound like see sounds or like when they see a number they see a cut they they Think of a number if they they associate a color with yeah So they've got this these linked associations and that is like an extra ability Of what our sensory system normally does because we're constantly taking in all sorts of sensory information our brain has to parse it But at the same time these things do become Inextricably linked In certain ways And so the different these researchers were like all right. Let's see how Sensory integration is intertwined when it comes to odor and color They did a really interesting Experimental setup where they put people in a room that had had an air filter going on in it for a very long time to neutralize the scent of the room And they had them sit at a desk and the job of the people in this study was to sit in the room and they were shown a gray a neutral gray square on on the screen and when After they'd sat there for a little while in the unscented room just looking at this neutral gray square then they're like the researchers Diffused an odor into the room and they had a number of odors that they diffused into the room caramel coffee peppermint they There were a bunch of Different things people weren't allowed to have any deodorants or perfumes and they didn't they couldn't be colorblind So Blair couldn't have been involved in this study Um, and they couldn't also have an impaired sense of smell This had to be people who could smell well and could see colors in a fair in a regular fairly well-defined way They also used cherry Lemon and odorless water and they used this ultrasonic diffuser for five minutes to make the room smell that way um, and then they were The participants had to look at this screen with the color on it that was gray and They had to adjust the color So that it's Neither red nor green nor yellow nor blue they had to change the color They of the gray to make it neutral gray to keep it neutral gray After they were smelling whatever the room was diffused with And people's perception of neutral gray changed With the odors that were in the room And so they found that coffee smells were more on the reddish end of things caramel was Um more yellowy lemon was actually a little less Yellowy than caramel peppermint. They said was a weird one and kind of like in the middle of everything and they like People weren't really associating one thing or another with with peppermint. Well, that does that mean that the peppermint people got it, right? Like they were like peppermint It actually clears the mind from biases and allow the participants to Get as close to the actual neutral gray As they could Yeah, so, uh, but it's fascinating. So when they when they mapped these results also onto a a 360 degree color chart They they were really able to see the influence of these odors On the way people see color. So kind of I think this is An interesting Thing to add to you know, the way that we engage with our environment And how we perceive it based on experiences. We've had with well known well known odors like the cult the the smells of things in the kitchen or Um just being able to you know that morning think of that morning cup of coffee and how it makes you look at the sunrise or I or I don't know I I'm also thinking of people who work in color theory and maybe work on computer screens and do color matching and Try to adjust colors While they're drinking cups of coffee or are I don't know eating a lemon pie but We have so much individuality when it comes down to it For the way that we perceive so many many things This adds one more layer of interest because it shows that there is Not just the color, but it's also the interaction between the colors and Your environment the smell the things that are going on So whatever like this this is this is cool the I like the way they did this study with the finding neutral gray That was pretty well thought out. Yeah, it's not matching the color, but it's just keep the gray neutral Make sure this gray is neutral. Yeah, so what I would And I don't understand how they're manipulating it where you were had it already on the screen and then keep it neutral by changing it Maybe I'm uh, they presented the screen to them then and it was oh, I'm sorry. I read that wrong That's my on me presented with a screen that showed a square filled with a random color And then they had to change from the random color to neutral gray. That makes sense. Yes, okay So so that's really cool. I would have also liked to see a version of the study just for fun Even if we learned nothing from it where Uh, people try to match a color to the smell So here's a smell. Oh, that's banana. Yeah, does everybody go right to yellow? Or that's coffee. Does everybody try to make a brown color? Like do you just try to match the thing that you think it's of or you know or get Get into a little bit more like What is what is the smell of this herb versus that one? Like, I don't know. We kind of have a fun I might have to do my own experiment. You might have to But yeah, so the researchers say they need to know the degree to which odors influence color perception. This is just um, you know a first step really The effect shown here is still present for less commonly encountered odors or is it Present for less commonly encountered odors or for odors that you're just encountering for the first time Does your brain have already something kind of set up in there or Is it all because of experience that we're able to do the this cross modality? Yeah, that's kind of the problem is that there is there is a basis for wanting to make something Maybe on the green spectrum or the yellow spectrum If it's a lime or a lemon, you know, like I can see there's biases in having A visual representation of whether that smell is coming from or the connection there What if they did this with sound? What is the color of this sound? Yeah, you know, so like like there's not like all sorts of interesting Ways you could experiment with that curse cross modality And there, you know, there's been so much that's been looked at with these specific individuals who have like the extra specific Sensory cross mode, you know crossovers, but just for the extra ESP Extra sensory perception. Is that what we're talking about now? No I'm forgetting what the I'm forgetting what the word is. But is that can I can I ask this because like this is They don't share the same thing though. It's not like everybody's number four is red or is it like No, no synesthesia. Thank you fada. Yes synesthesia. That's what I'm synesthesia is Is uncommon, but there's got to be a range of certain cross modal commonalities. That's all yeah Like there's somebody's one person synesthesia all in pastels and another one is all in like, oh, yes They're different. They're all different. Yeah, they're all yeah. It's not all the same. People are different for sure Yeah, we're all different but colors They are warped by the things we smell So that to me now I'm like looking around and like How does my orange drink make me perceive the colors on the computer screen? What is happening now? I love how you say coffee and sunset or sunrise there It is uh Nearly 7 a.m. Where I'm at and it is pitch dark outside And I've already had three cups of coffee, so I don't know what I think the sunrise might be associated with a nap soon That would be a great thing and so on that note we what is the what is the odor and the color of nap? I don't know I Don't know that's individual as well Have we done it? Have we made it to the end? We have there's just one thing I wanted to say This is not a study we covered tonight, but people should go look for it and a proof of concept the crisper engineered chickens to be Lou proof I saw this one Actually chose not to bring it because I didn't want to get into the details of it But I think you this is one to this is a good one. Yeah, this is because we've been having these bird flu mass chicken culls and If it wasn't for Chicken, I think I'd be a vegetarian just about Yeah chickens and chickens It's like eating a little dinosaur. I am perfectly happy with the idea of a genetically modified chicken It is not going to get the flu and then It's safer for everyone Until the food just figures away around that until it turns out that then they can harbor them and Even though they don't get sick they can continue to spread them and how well we should look at this. Anyway Yes I hope you all stayed Flu proof All right, we've done it. Thank you all for joining us really. I'm glad that you are here with us This week and every week. Thank you to our chat rooms. Thank you twitch YouTube facebook discord. Thank you for being here and chatting Thank you to our and lore and gourd and others who keep the chat rooms good places I saw fata working on keeping it a nice happy place over in the youtube Thank you fata also for your help on social media show descriptions and Uh, the work that you do there identity for thank you for recording the show rachel. 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contact us directly email kirsten at kirsten at thisweekinscience.com to reach me justin at twistminion at gmail.com blair at blairbaz at twist.org put twists in the subject line so your email doesn't get spam filtered into the middle of a ball of female frogs where the females play and dead not a great place to be yeah that image doesn't or does disturb you you can hit us up on the twitter where we are at twist science at dr kiki and at blair's menagerie we love your feedback if there is a topic you would like us to cover or address a suggestion for an interview a haiku that comes to tonight please let us know and uh we're also on the universe adon mastin on kind of thing i'm over over on blue sky there's a whole bunch of things happening right now we'll see what's going on but we will be back here next week and we hope that you'll join us again for more great science news and if you've learned anything from the show remember it's all in your head with a wave of my hand and all this is coming your way so everybody listen to what i say i use the scientific map this week in science science science this week in science this week in science this week in science science science i've got one disclaimer and it shouldn't be news that what we have reached the after show after show after show we have reached the after show it's after the show uh justin's gone to get more coffee or something like that and people are sending me no chicken on our lore smb go breakfast cereal saturday morning breakfast cereal comics what was that one it's an old one it is almost bedtime i have almost bedtime justin has almost bedtime where'd he go where'd he go where'd he go where'd he go where'd he go i have news i have news room i have a story well not a story i really need to go to bedtime because i'm not feeling well and i need to take care of myself more come on justin um anyway friends of the show there it is thank you for putting that link in the discord our and more can't click from wherever i was um i have a text from blare uh huh hi hi i have a text from blare she says um things are hard so she uh is gonna she doesn't know when she'll be able to you know between five and ten p.m. p.m. is baby witching hour which sounds about right it's usually difficult time around then um but she said she is working on a calendar oh fantastic she said she might end up finishing the calendar nice because i've got three months figured out and the rest i have no idea what to do with anyway she said she should know by the end of week next week maybe so maybe i will know things soon um and she can't wait to make an appearance hopefully soon that would be nice we miss her very much we miss we miss the players yes so that whole conversation last week who knows maybe she'll need your three pieces of the puzzle but they're not made i didn't know she was working on a calendar that's crazy they're not made they're just yeah i'll do i'll do the 2025 i'll start working now yes i can make one a month yeah that sounds about right yeah so we have so that's some good news there um i don't know what the timing is going to be in the future with the baby and all that kind of stuff so um yeah we definitely the hosts need to sit down have conversations about how things are gonna keep going yeah things gotta get crazy starting very soon yeah we might have to we might have to switch the time of the show for a little while yeah we don't know it's possible um because i'm going to be uh occupied at this time for about six six weeks six to eight weeks somebody like that yeah starting uh no starting november oh god starting in like three weeks three weeks yeah right yeah okay so it's coming we got to talk to you know what we're gonna do what i'm gonna do there in a baby getting we need to have i don't know what's happening and i have i think what we need i need to go to bed is it worth okay go to bed say good night dr k g r and laura i love it yeah let's do a when to meet when can all of the what's the best time for all of the all r and laura that's fantastic yeah we'll do when to meet we'll figure out what's the best time for uh all of the all of the fans of the show uh no we're not making any changes yet but uh we just i'm announcing the changes that aren't being made yet yeah but just saying decided on or we haven't decided on anything there something has to be decided i don't know what yet but so yeah we're gonna have we're gonna put the horse before the cart although you know can i just say doesn't the horse belong before the court before the cart like if you put it after the cart don't put the cart before the horse if you put the cart the horse after the cart then what's it supposed to push doesn't make any sense don't put the cart before the horse is the same yeah you don't put the you put the you never don't don't put the horse before the cart is what they say is that no they say the other way i just misunderstood the now totally backward because yeah why would oh yeah don't put the cart before the horse what you put it after yeah no that's the thing you put the cart after the horse and then the horse has to push the cart that's what i'm saying i got messed it up into my telling you what was wrong with it but it's still wrong it's still still we don't want to do it it's still wrong you know if you put the cart before the horses i don't know and Mary Gertz it's definitely possible that you've been listening to us since about 2006 we've been podcasting for that long for sure so i'm glad that you're with us here that's pretty awesome totally radical oh my gosh as we would have said in these early 2000s yeah talking with my child now that's how people talk back then kai kai lets me know about like the new lingo he's like he says things sometimes i'm like i don't even know what that meant he goes okay let me break it down for you and so now he is like my translate my transfer nice oh fantastic i have to say there there is something to be said for this young generation and the the words they're using it's all memeified so because everything's on meme culture they in case they encapsulate like entire feelings and whole forget emojis you need to know like one word between behind a four second meme yeah no you have to know the background of like everything and then yeah it's but yeah it's really fascinating to me so yeah anyway i do need to go to bed because i need my sleep and at the rest all i want to do right now is sleep i'm propped up on cold pills and tea at the moment shaka brah what shaka when the walls fell yes i actually unfortunately know exactly which Jean-Luc Picard's talking in uh shaka when the walls fell yeah that's what i'm talking about oh gosh this is like one of the most hilariously bad episodes of Star Trek ever there's like comic ones out there it's so that is like thank you for that paul his arms open hello kira ah just as we are saying good night i'm going to say say good morning justin good morning justin say good night dr kiki good night kiki good night everyone thank you for joining us for another twist episode we hope that you'll be back again next week tell your friends to come we'll have some party snacks i don't know i'll have a nice time stay safe stay happy stay um healthy lucky stay lucky stay lucky always bet on the coin side that's starting up so oh if it starts heads then on heads thanks everyone we'll see you next week