 You know, just don't tell don't say what it is because I don't want it to be flagged. Oh What oh what the piece of music? Yeah What who who they're not who made it but what what it is? What do you think Tom? You know it'd be an issue. I thought it was Andrew Ellen. It is but it permission Yeah But like and we actually should say what it is so that we Like credit the guy. No, no, no, not I'm not saying we don't credit credit and How would it be flagged? Well, things get flagged on YouTube for who knows for being there usually. Yeah Do you know what it is Yeah As long as Andrew doesn't have a content ID bought out there No, that is such it's like a that's like a cover tune But it's it's such a it's such a It's not a direct cover, right? So it's a performance, right? And I'm sure Andrew you stop play it Roger stop Oh Bull of a watch time for 28 All right, are you guys ready to do the first DTMS round table show? I Want Guinevere's garden delight No one no one gets it at all except for the two old guys I didn't get it, but I bet it was funny round table pizza. It's one of the items Guinevere's But when a beer is a round to a pizza type Yeah, it's it's one of the things you get what it's like an all-vegetarian pizza. Oh, it's a bitch Didn't know that and I used to eat a round table all the time as a kid. Maybe it's new All right, here we go three two The Daily Tech news show is powered by its listeners not outside organizations If you get value from the show consider giving a little back as little as a dollar a month keeps great tech news and analysis Coming your way commercial free find out more at Daily Tech news show comm slash support This is the Daily Tech news round table show for Friday, October 27 2017 from DTMS headquarters in Los Angeles I'm Tom Merritt and from studio feline at Venice Beach. I'm Sarah Lane and from Pikachu studios in the San Francisco Bay Area I am Shannon Morse and Joining us to fill out the round table. We're very excited to have staff reporter from CNET Aaron Carson back on the show How's it going Aaron? It's great. Thanks everyone so much for having me. It's gonna be a fun We've got a brand new format for the final Friday of each month. It's gonna be a round table I will tell you a little bit more about that But to keep the change from being too shocking We are still having Len Peralta here to illustrate the episode on Fridays Len. How's it going good? I am completely shocked. No, it's actually I'm very excited to be like wait. I have to I have to draw what yeah It's gonna be exciting. There are yeah, I'll let you get to it But I'm excited to what I'm gonna do here They're a little bit different than what I usually do on Fridays, but it's gonna be exciting producer Roger Chang is alongside as well How are you Roger? I am hot, but I am good good good We'll try to well. It's a longer show than usual around table. I was about to be sponsoring in about 30 minutes All right, so what's the deal? On the last Friday of every month, we will do a round table episode like this one We will take on four broader topics Generally drawn from the kind of stories we've been covering all month So we're expanding on everything trying to get a little more into what our opinions are about it a little more understanding about it and One of those topics will be picked by folks at the advisor level So if you missed at this time, I apologize, but advisors keep an eye on patreon.com slash DTNS for a poll and I think for this coming month now that you get an idea of what the show is about a Way to suggest topics that will go into those polls instead of the half hour Sarah and I and our co-contributors will cover These 15 minute long discussions So we're gonna try to fit these four discussions into an hour They may not go 15 minutes, but we're gonna try to to put a 15 minute time limit on each discussion I'm very excited to try this. We want your feedback feedback at dailytechnewshow.com Sarah Are you ready to kick us off? I am okay So the first topic that we have our first 15 minute topic is the idea of automation and AI automation specifically and the idea that Humans are a little bit wary of robots taking jobs and stuff like that. So I'm going to Read an email from Dan who emailed us. He says he's from no longer warm, Michigan Sorry about that Dan and he said he references a recent show where Scott made excellent points about automation and the rise of electronics spreadsheets creating more jobs Unless dredge work for accountants and there are several examples of this dynamic where the industry is improved by the automation Where it falls down is industries where the automation or robots complete all of the work Those accountants were able to take the much more organized and granular info better serve their clients with more informed analysis Recommendations, but in the auto industry if the robot builds the car cars done the end It's nothing for a human to do if the coal mining robot handles all the tasks relevant to getting the coal out of the ground It's done. There's nothing for a human to do if each of them then load their products onto self-driving trucks say It gets delivered nothing for a human to do people are certainly freed up But for what that's what Dan is asking the job is done Those are the industries where there will be some of the strongest trauma Now there is a really interesting article on Forbes that ties Nicely into this the name of the article or I'm sorry It's a wire wire article is titled five myths about AI that you must stop believing and one of the takeaways that I found from the article that was really interesting was the notion that People say well, it's the low skilled the manual workers. Those are the jobs that are most at risk and It's it's they're going to be replaced and it's going to be a problem The author of this article on wired says no, that's not true I mean just look at doctors and lawyers using AI to scan thousands of documents better right or to use machine learning algorithms to process x-rays with Superior precision to the human eye Both of those jobs still require a human touch though if you're a lawyer You're a litigator. Let's say, you know, you still have to convince a jury that your data makes sense That's a human thing. If you're a doctor, you still might have to talk to a patient about a medical issue Well, that's it. That's a human thing So I guess I wanted to open it up to to the group What's everybody's kind of like scare level of of jobs being replaced by robots and Do those people get freed up to do better jobs as a result? That's kind of an argument that I made previously when we were talking about automation on Daily Tech News Show and It's the fact that while a lot of these jobs will be replaced by automation not all of them obviously, but some of the more repetitive tasks and things like that The companies that are hiring these people will need to find a way to give them better jobs Just like you said Sarah and a lot of that comes down to finding those like human emotional aspects of the job Like marketing and PR and getting out and talking to customers and fixing problems like those kind of things People appreciate when you have that emotional connection with somebody else And I don't think they would get that out of out of a robot But it really comes down to the company like how are they going to going to implement those those kind of emotional Relationships with their customers so that their entire job market isn't being replaced by robots Yeah, I mean this is kind of an interesting area I think that you Run into these two kind of schools of thought and one is that the folks who lose their jobs are going to be Retrained to create or manage the robots or we're going to just have like so much nice leisure time to write that great American novel And whatnot and nothing like nothing's ever that simple You know, I think that you can look back historically and see these inflection points where economic growth and productivity ended up sort of like this gap and tech came in and Simultaneously destroyed and created jobs. So I never advised panic, but I think it's definitely Societally something to prepare for Yeah, I think so too because you know like you guys have said We used to have ditch diggers and you know then big Machines came along that could dig ditches that have put all the ditch diggers out of work And and we had an entire industrial revolution that did similar things But we found new things for people to do things We couldn't afford to pay people to do before because we had to pay them to be dig ditch diggers and stuff like that So I'm not too worried about that But your last point is the most salient one to me Aaron, which is there is Displacement and so while I am very positive about the ultimate outcome of all of this I don't think jobs disappear. We come up with new things that we can do for each other with value Well wealth isn't like just a thing that goes away It's like oh well I've got extra money now that I used to have to pay for for this now I can I can actually do something else that I never could afford to do as a business What happens to those people who were really good at getting the coal out of the ground or who were really good at building the Cars are supervising the robots that were building the cars that don't need to be supervised And they don't have an immediate job that they can move to I think one of the things that I always find most interesting About the argument that well if a computer takes a human's job Then the human is screwed is that it's it's as if the human was only made to do this one task, right? the the you know as if people are Defined by some role that they had to do just because there weren't machines back in the day So using coal mining as an example. It's like it's really dangerous You know people die doing that so if a robot can do that Allowing somebody who's worked in mining for many years to do something different Well, sure we have to define what that different thing is But it's certainly not you know the end of that human's potential that that particular job went away There there are always other options. I mean there was a study that came out I think in 2013 from Oxford that freaked a lot of people out and it said that somewhere around 47% of jobs in the US were at risk of being replaced by Automation and I think that the kind of the point that got lost a little in there was that that wasn't a final sweeping death notice, there's a lot of room for Subtle change nuance in there. So Yeah, I'm getting getting rid of jobs that again We can actually use that that labor better if we don't have to have humans doing it and I keep bringing up ditch digging I know which is horrible, but but it is kind of the prototype of like nobody wants to do it Okay, there's probably one of you out there. There's like, you know, I really enjoy digging a ditch In there and being close to the earth, that's fine But but most people didn't and we we were wasting people's hours Because we had to have them do that for various reasons and now we don't and so we found better uses for for people's time Which actually is why we have a higher standard of living on average than any other era in human history When you look when you back up far enough doesn't mean all our problems are solved though Well, and I think one of the the bigger issues is that there needs to be a proactive approach to essentially what you need to do is shifting people out of a manual labor but skilled manual labor position that might be automated into a new work situation because What I think a lot of people talking about but don't really put the thumb on is that they're talking about the social cost of that of that Period in between the transition, right? If you are a family that's living on to, you know To you know, working-class incomes one of them goes away suddenly that family Even if it's only for five or six years, you're gonna have an Incredible reduction in incoming coming into the family and people like well, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna get a feed. I'm gonna pay the mortgage. I'm gonna do all these things and so I think it really Is predicated not just on industry but also government As well as communities to kind of start thinking about like so what can we do? You make a really good point Roger that it's it's easy to say but wait You weren't really enjoying this menial task that a robot can do now And so now you're just freed up to do better things Well, that's not really the way it works for a lot of people especially people who are You know in in low-income situations supporting families, you know You can't just like figure out what your dream job is instead and do that tomorrow That's not really the way that the workforce is set up. Certainly not in the u.s. So It's it's it's more complicated than saying Robots have made it better for all of us. We could just do better stuff, you know that that we as smart humans We're we're meant to do anyway There are two sides to this I think about when I was back in high school and I was working at a domino's pizza of all places And considering that kind of job that service industry job like that could have been automated Everything from making the pizza to getting the shipment delivered to a person's door to accepting the payment In even them putting in the order I mean, they already do that on mobile You can just set up an order online now and it gets sent over to the pizza place If I was replaced by a robot at that time, I would have been devastated because I was so young I wasn't trained in anything else and I wouldn't have known what I could do that dream job had not come to me while I was in high school and Even just last night I went to the metrion and I saw this cafe that was it was a cafe in the metrion that was completely robotic But the interesting thing to me was you had two guys there that were employed by the company that had put in place the cafe And they were teaching people how to use it So their entire job that night was showing people like kind of coaxing them to come over and introducing them to the concept And teaching people how to use this robotic cafe So there is still a place for people to work with robots You're not necessarily going to be completely replaced But it's going to be really hard to find that place for humans Especially if you're young and you're just getting into the workforce and you don't really know what your place is in the workforce yet Well, it's even worse if you're older I mean if you're in your 50s and you're ending toward your you're coming to your retirement age or your pension age I mean you've built up a lifetime of skill and knowledge in a particular field You can say yeah, you can jump ship and move to other stuff. But again, it's not that simple. I mean, you know People aren't fungible in the way that the the way that people think that machines are right I can move machine a to point b and it'll be fine People especially if they are highly skilled You know, you need to find things that dovetail or lease are Tengentially related if you're a mechanic, maybe you could work on machinery like, you know Diesel engines that might be, you know part of a power plant you can move into that If you're a cook you can maybe move into other food service areas, but you're not going to put a cook Fixing a diesel engine or a guy who was mounting coal Straight into coding that that is a possibility But that isn't something that's going to happen within a three to four year period and they come out with a good paying job It's probably going to be more like, you know an eight to ten year process To shift some of these people over and I think it's not to say it's possible But it's something that needs to be thought of like right now with plans in place and how to do that Be proactive about it. People should cross train businesses should cross train all their employees so that they are ready for that Coal mining is a great example. I'm based in Kentucky kind of the you know mid ish part of the state, but You see a lot of stories kind of coming out of the eastern portion of the state Where there's been a lot of tumult in the industry over the years and there are efforts, you know, like Roger mentioned to say retrain You know former coal workers to do things like coding But another part of the issue is if you are say from A small town and your family has been there for multiple generations and your job leaves Sure, there's remote work, but you you are somewhat bound by By location. So again, it's just kind of like another layer of Not only can you like acquire the skill, but what is your access to the job market? No, it makes me think of northern bond county, Illinois, sereno, caffeine Those that's that's a lot of people working in the coal industry at least when I was growing up And there's a story in the st. Louis post dispatch today that the city of st Louis has voted to eliminate its dependence on coal power by I think 2035 And and st. Louis is the seat of peabody coal and a couple other of these big coal companies If I'm sitting over there in caffeine and I still have a job in coal that that sends tremors through So Ah that music you're hearing Is a letting us know that we've hit our 15 minute mark Big thanks to Andrew Allen for letting us use his wonderful jazz To give us a gentle way to say tom shut up and move All right, so let's let's go on to talk about a Topic that Shannon suggested we mentioned Based on the fact that amazon had the key announcement earlier this week if you missed that it's it's the one that Where amazon will sell you a door lock and a camera and if you sign up with amazon prime amazon delivery people can open your door when you're not there and put your package inside There were also great amazon Earnings numbers yesterday amazon's just killing it now on making the money and if you didn't realize it amazon and apple are Both among the largest companies by revenue and by market cap in the united in the world So there's a lot of tech companies that are topped by market cap But when you look at revenue, it's often oil industry energy industry financial industry except apple and amazon amazon is up there In revenue amazon is also engaging unlike apple in lots of different industries. You ever do those pull down Those pull down surveys where they're like which industry are you in? Is it industrial or education or services amazon's in almost all of those They're in logistics and shipping on the back end not just the delivery driver that comes to your house But planes boats they're into entertainment Obviously they have amazon studios. They're making movies. They're making tv shows They're in finance. Did you know that amazon has a small business lending arm? Uh, they are they are doing some kinds of banking. They are doing advertising It was one of their biggest revenue drivers this last quarter and they're doing pharmaceuticals St. Louis post dispatch again shout out to my hometown newspaper Reports that amazon has received licenses for wholesale prescription drug distribution in 12 states They would just need to obtain a pharmacy license by the end of the year in order to sell drugs directly to customers So shannon, which scares you more amazon key and strangers coming into your house or amazon Just running everything in the world Well, i'm not too worried about amazon running everything in the world as you say tom because A lot of companies are doing exactly this same thing not just amazon, you know apple started out with You know old computers and then they got into the music industry and now they do um a lot of Financial stuff so you can cross payments through apple So there's a lot of different companies doing that. So is google I mean google introduced hardware in their phones Which of course everybody is a little ticked off about the new pixel But you know they they also have a lot of different hands in different places So i'm not too worried about that what i am worried about from a personal like privacy and security feel Obviously is amazon key and the cloud camera, which i will preface this by saying i did purchase a cloud camera Just so i can test it and see how much information is leaking That's good. I'm glad you did that because i didn't buy one Because i have two dogs and i don't want to have to just deal with that at all They're going to be around when i'm not and they're going to be at the door So that just doesn't work for me, but i am curious How secure that is i mean they're doing a lot to keep it Secure by saying look you you have a camera on it You know is it properly encrypted though is how hackable is the lock versus any other lock any locks hackable to be honest Oh, yeah, so i'm so you're going to put it through its paces Yeah, well there's been several studies at like def con and other hacker conventions that have put All these different popular locks through all the different tests and they found most of them were vulnerable at the Time now obviously with those different locks you do get software updates For most of them, but it's another iot device like is it going to be completely secure? Probably not and that is why i still have an old school like regular regular Key on my front door and my back door and i will probably never replace it because i don't want to end up in that Vulnerability, but with the cloud camera plus the key my concern here is that amazon is controlling Not only the security of your household that you view but also the security of your front door And they're also in charge of the delivery currently they're saying that amazon is only trusting its own Delivery team to handle these deliveries of packages to your front door To get them to actually like open up the front door and put down your package So they're running all parts of that entire thing I feel like it's kind of monopolizing the whole security of your household Instead I would feel a lot more secure if I had a separate company running the camera And then had amazon entering the door and dropping off my package so that I know like if my camera Mysteriously went down while the package was supposed to be delivered And I have no way of knowing if they actually delivered the package Then I would have that proof because I would have a third party running that camera instead of amazon Need a camera on the camera. Yeah Here on that camera That's exactly what I would want. Well, and I you know, I you're right Alphabet is obviously in a lot of different industries beyond just google and google's in a lot in a lot of different industries I think there is something different shaping up with amazon though I don't see apple alphabet of microsoft facebook even buying Like the the the ships, you know, or even leasing the airlines that deliver packages I don't see them getting their arms in as many different industries amazon starting to look starting to look like standard oil to me where they just own everything It's not just the deal you started to hit on it, right? They they own the pharmaceuticals and the whole foods that your your stuff is coming from and they own the delivery truck And they own the the door lock On your house But but they own the bank maybe that that the small business got the loan to be able to sell you the The product and make it in the first place erin. I'm curious this does this pervasiveness of amazon Raise any alarm bells with you I mean to me, I think one of the The kind of interesting aspects is when you do pause and step back and realize all the different directions that amazon is gaining ground and presence um, so Yeah, I mean in in in some ways. I'm kind of more so inclined to just like sit for a second You know kind of uh decide where I think that that that's going but um You know something that I saw this morning that was kind of interesting uh from Reuters is they had a point I mean just just to kind of speak to some of the the breath of amazon and similar companies as they were talking about how amazon microsoft until An alphabet generated about two percent of the u.s. Is national output which is about like a hundred billion dollars just in the september quarter So it's I think definitely something to keep an eye on just the extent to which these companies can expand I think uh tom and justin robber young and I yesterday on on dtns We were we were covering a bunch of earnings reports and amazon's was was part of that and an interesting takeaway to me was that because of the whole foods acquisition and just growth in general amazon now has 540 000 employees, uh, which is Almost seven times how many employees google has google's pretty big company Uh four times out of microsoft and is the second largest us employer now after walmart And we also kind of made the joke that it used to be about Well amazon's put in a moment pop bookstore out of business and now it's like Well now we're looking at something like a walmart, right? Is creeping towards rich draffolito at our slack pointed out that amazon web services is doing the equivalent of putting out mom and pop businesses By out competing smaller cloud service companies That too it's and You know chan and I think you make really good points about uh, it feeling really Uh Feeling really uncomfortable with the idea of amazon controlling security and delivery and so many things that that that that seems so convenient on the surface at the same time amazon does a lot of stuff really well and I think that the the company at least at this point has proven it is particularly nimble to move into a lot of different areas of of Of the market that we didn't even necessarily expect before and you know in that sense I gotta like give them give them some props, but I do Still sort of wonder okay well If amazon takes over my grocery store and amazon takes over this and that and that's where i'm getting everything from It's it's almost like I still have like impulse buy Purchased fun that doesn't happen with amazon like I can't I can't recreate that feeling of like going Into a store and like picking up a pair of shoes, but ever I could buy it on amazon maybe for a little bit cheaper You just go into the amazon bookstore and then there's all whole shelf of impulse buys that aren't even books Well, I know but it's not they've got you covered. It's not the same and i'm not saying it's better or worse I'm saying it's different and i'm not sure you know what this is all going to look like in another five years Sarah I think you hit the nail on the head right there because one of the reasons why i'm not super concerned about amazon is because you're right They they do so many different things so very well and they've continued to grow the business and while I know that You know going into these different things like pharmaceuticals and finances everything is about making money for this business obviously But they're so customer relatable. They've done an excellent job with that kind of stuff Um just the other day when I had a package that was never delivered to my door amazon immediately refunded me They didn't even need proof or anything like that. They just forgot so much cash Yeah, they were just like it's all good. Well credit your account and I was like cool. That's good customer service Like that's what it should be like when you come to something like the key While I understand that amazon is doing these things very well They're working with third parties for these front door locks and I don't know how those third parties are Securing my stuff. So I understand that you know, I I trust them with a lot of what I do in my life I don't know if I trust the third parties that they're working with so maybe they're doing this All like taking control of like the logistics and shipping and everything like that for a liability reason because if they're in charge of it they have less liability with these third party companies for losing packages and stuff like that and In in that case it could save them a lot of money If they're the ones in charge of everything because it's all in house and they can train their people to do it correctly They won't have to depend on a third party to deliver stuff They won't have to deliver depending on a third party to do whatever it might be app integration or whatever So I can understand why why they're making these moves But they have to take it very gently and very gently strides to make sure that they're still friendly with their consumers And they don't grow to a point where we end up hating them Just wait a lamb is it buys yale or quickset Then they'll own the lockmaker Yep Yeah, I know I know what you mean like it is it is a double-edged sword on the one hand You don't you you want a company to be good at the whole process and not have to rely on a third party because Even if both are great, you know, yale knows locks. They've been making locks forever. I'm sure they're very good But whenever you have two Companies, there's always a little chink in the armor. There's always a little more room for miscommunication, right? Yeah, that's exactly what I think so I understand while they're why they want to take control of everything but The moment it starts to feel like a monopoly is the moment that I start to worry And currently I don't feel like that and I think it's just because of that trust that amazon has built with their customers for so long Yeah, the the verge had a brand awareness and a brand Loveability for a lack of a better word Survey that they did with a company that came out today and amazon topped it You know people were saying yeah, I could live without starbucks. I could live without twitter You know those were down at the bottom of could you live without it amazon was top of like no I could not live without amazon That's the thing is you love them so much you give them a little more of a pass like okay So I never spend my money anywhere, but amazon now But they're so good and they're good with the customer service like at what point does it become Um, uh too much at what point does it cross the line for you even if they're really good at it It's a human bias But at least we can recognize our own bias towards our favorite companies as compared to the ones that we're not recognizing as well I am definitely guilty of buying things on amazon because it's amazon not caring that it's maybe a little more expensive Like what like what because it's amazon. What is that what what kind of things I could go down to the dog bakery here And get dog food, but sometimes I'm just like, you know what? I'll just I'll just go to amazon and do it You know, I actually I could buy a baseball hat from mlb.com I'll just do it on amazon I I'm actually the opposite and I know I'm a minority because I talk to people about this all the time You know, I complain like my amazon packages if I'm not home I got a sign for it and then I got a ups slip and it's a whole household I could just go to bruno's the independent head store And buy my stuff there and that I have it with Yeah Yeah, that's that's the keys there. We're on to the next story You know, we were we were speaking of bias Uh, so we're going to continue on that theme, but it's a it's a different kind of bias and erin I am so excited to to get uh more insight from you because I'm going to be quoting a lot of statistics from articles That you have actually written on cnet, but I'm just going to go through some some of these Data points first to get us all on the same page and this is the idea of Diversity and particularly gender in tech and the disparity and why there is disparity and why we keep talking about it And why we have to keep talking about it so There was a report published in the harvard business review earlier this week It was uh data an analyst from mckinsey and co and workplace analytics company human eyes They issued 100 sociometric badges it is like badges that people wore across five levels of seniority in a company big company large mostly male though A strategy firm And they they observed people for about four months So the badges measured things like movement proximity to other badges as in people Volume of the tone of voice when someone was speaking to someone else who talks to whom and when And where people are talking to to to others and who is doing most of the talking in a conversation So it's it's kind of getting a sense of like who's kind of in the you know the driver's seat here so The data was anonymized for everything besides gender Your role at the company and then the time you've spent at the company Have you been there for five years? Have you been there for 25 that sort of thing and the findings show that actually even though There's this ongoing conversation that well men and women are different And we're just never going to really get on the same page in that way because men and women are different Well In these findings men and women behaved quite similarly at least in the business contract And the conclusion of this research report was and i quote our analysts Our analysis rather suggests that the difference in promotion areas of promotion rates was due not to behavior But to how they were treated this indicates the arguments about changing women's behavior to lean in for example COO of facebook surel sandberg very famous for that Might miss the bigger picture and that's that gender equality is due to bias Not differences in behavior after all Aaron i want to kind of hand it over to you at this point because i know that you think about this a lot And we spend a lot of time reporting on on on some of these findings It tends to make sense to me Yeah, and you know um so I think the big reason that a study like this matters is because We're at a point in time where a lot of very large important tech companies are very Outspoken and public about their diversity initiatives. They have training classes and partnerships and You know spreadsheets and all kinds of things going on But the fact is with all of these efforts, we still don't really know what works And so for example If you're thinking a lot of time and money and resources Into you know as the uh as the study mentioned, uh trying to fix the women or you know, uh rolling out various initiatives It could all be for naught. We don't we don't know this yet if there's still this sort of like huge undercurrents of Bias it might not matter if we teach women to have you know better leadership skills. So Um, it's it's worth noting something like this So that we don't end up wasting a lot of time and money Uh trying to fix the problem in a way that's really not doing any good Well, it also you know, it it kind of opens up the conversation of okay Well, if it's really about men and women behaving differently and women need to lean in Uh, you know to use a popular phrase If we are encouraging women to behave differently in order to get farther ahead in the workplace And be on a level playing field Well, if men and women aren't behaving that differently to begin with It's it's as if we're encouraging women to act outside their comfort zone But for what? Uh, if if it if it's a bias thing, I mean, that's that's a huge problem And it's not an easy solution certainly not something that we're going to answer in the next 10 minutes, but That's that's really interesting to me. You know, if it's if there's inherent bias Already, then we shouldn't be teaching anyone to be anything but who they are anyway And there's really no evidence at least from this report to suggest that women are holding back Right, exactly And that was you know, something really interesting because at this point in time Something you hear a lot is that, you know, maybe, you know, women are maybe more quiet or they're not Um, sort of intentional enough about speaking with their managers or all these different, you know, sorts of potential pitfalls, but Yeah, but it was fascinating I mean they they actually put sensors on people and we're able to determine like it's not that the women at this company were not getting that FaceTime or approaching their work any differently so It really kind of rules Rules out that side of things I have a personal anecdote I could include here and it kind of goes along with this study too I did a panel back in may at a security convention called austert down in australia and the panel was about women in tech women in infosec and how diversity is is currently like Changing a little bit, but we're still running into a lot of those problems And one of the people on the panel was a transgender woman who had the same job for years She still does and during her transition She noticed that when she went from, you know, male gender to female gender she She noticed a complete bias switch like a 360 from her co-workers where like they would talk over her in meetings and stuff like that and when Before her transition they didn't do that to her and I thought it was amazing that somebody who has had the same job for all These years was completely treated differently after a transition In her gender it was just nuts and it speaks volumes when you look at somebody who has done a huge study like these like this company has with A hundred different badges that kind of goes along with that same trade You know, there's another study that really ties into this called women in the workplace 2017 And this was also a report from mckinsey and co But but also in conjunction with leanin.org, which of course is the nonprofit founded by charles handberg facebook ceo about The idea of women in technology and and companies in general this particular Research study spoke with 70 000 workers from 222 companies that employ more than 12 million people So big companies huge companies men and women And there were some interesting Findings that I want to mention here. One of them was women have earned more college degrees than men for the last three decades Just you know on the whole But still are underrepresented. Well, you know, if you just kind of look at numbers at face value That doesn't really make any sense, right? Probably something else going on here And also that 50 of the men at these organizations these big companies in the study Thought that 10 of a company's senior leadership Well, that was an adequate adequate representation for women. Well 10 percent. That's not 50. That's 10. So I think that You know, I don't want to sit here and say, well, you know, men just don't want women in positions of power I think that it's happening slowly but it's still A very clear issue of women being underrepresented And men not necessarily saying, huh, this seems kind of unfair, you know, it's it's uh, it's It's happening slowly, but it's it's it's not we're not 50 50, you know, this is a really isn't a fair fight And the sooner we all get on the same page about that the sooner we all get a little bit smarter Yeah, I think that's a good point. Um One of the things that makes this whole issue very challenging is that If you Don't really believe that a problem exists. You can't Take it seriously and start to address it So the idea that there exists this massive blind spot There's a lot of folks who because they maybe feel that they have not person personally witnessed it or whatever the case is um Don't really buy into the idea that there is bias in the workplace That's a huge thing to have to get over, you know, that that's uh, that's really something that like a bridge that we have to Cross that's going to make it very difficult to sort of have more earnest conversations and kind of push things forward And you know, these diversity reports from companies come out every year. We've seen them since about Like 2012 or no, sorry 14. Um, or so and and the change is so so gradual I think it kind of speaks to the idea that It's not one thing. There's a lot going on and it is complicated Allison did is go ray oma over a tech republic has done some similar reporting and one of the things she noted was that CS majors at the entry level are often 50 50 women and men CS graduates though dip down below 30% and why is that and one of the theories is that as women move through the course system, they confront more Male teachers and feel like there's less in common. They're less understood. They express less confidence Even though they're often getting better grades Uh, and so they I mean you'd move on too if you're like, I don't really get these people I'm I'm I'm going to try something else And I think that happens in the workplace too where we all like to work with people that are similar to us He gets me. He's funny, you know, like they they understand our culture and males often Have more in common with other males than they do with other females And I think some of this is as simple as that and it takes people who are in the hiring positions To have some self-awareness to say let me force myself to look at the people that I'm interviewing Beyond what I have in common with them. Let me force myself to challenge My own perspectives and and look to hire people that challenge my own perspectives that are still qualified to do the job Uh, and and I think it's really interesting that I I don't think it's bad to teach anyone to lean in and have leadership strategies But maybe that's not the solution to the problem and I have a personal anecdote too In I don't remember 2010 2011 We knew becky whirley was going to leave tech news today And I'm sitting there talking to sarah About how gosh, you know, I'd really uh, I'd really like a host for the show who was a woman And sarah's looking at me like I'm right. I'm right here right here in front of you tom And tom you weren't the first person to do this to me. So it's like it wasn't it wasn't even unique to to that To that it was a it was a watershed moment because it hit me and I'm like, oh, I didn't think you were interested And which is what I said But then I started to think about it later. I'm like, why why didn't I think she was interested? There's no reason that I she was hosting two days of the show already Uh, and it was it was just not a bias that I had conscious Wasn't a bias that that was even necessarily because I thought men and women were different It was just it was just something that I was not aware of And as soon as I got rid of it, you know on the flip side of that tom and I kind of remember this actually even though You know seven years ago now. It's like at the same time Did I speak up enough? You know in hindsight for what I actually wanted Maybe I didn't now i'm not saying that the problem is that women don't speak up enough because I know That's that's not a problem that everybody has and I don't want to generalize Based on somebody's gender, but I know in my experience There are there have been times where I've uh held back um and It's not necessarily just because I'm talking to a male at that particular moment, but There are behaviors that I've certainly exhibited. I've noticed in others um, and I think that it ties into this just overall general concept that we talk about about bias and assuming things about what people want and don't want and It's just not a black and white conversation When it comes to gender now, I mean I I guess this sort of segues a little bit into I think we'd be remiss to talk about diversity in the workplace Just as a gender issue because certainly it isn't. Um, it's also absolutely a race issue. Um, there was a A report that I read this morning as we were getting ready for this About the idea that tech leadership has a bigger race than gender problem, right? So they're not always mutually exclusive, but you know, let's let's put them into two buckets for the sake of argument here And this report found that Asians and especially Asian women are among the least likely to be promoted into leadership positions So the study was presented by Ascend leadership, which is a non-profit group group for Asian professionals Uh, it was a huge amount of employees almost 200 000 of them Uh, almost 70 000 managers executives Information was collected by the equal employment opportunity commission So it is a really really legit set of data. This is between 2007 and 2015 And these were technology companies based in san francisco and san azalea. That's, you know, the silicon belly belt If you will Uh, and and it covers apple and facebook and cisco and twitter and all the big guys representation of white women in leadership I am one of them rose 17 percent between 2007 and 2015 All other minority groups lost ground though so in a sense Well, okay, if some women are are figuring out how to succeed and and and things are going well for us That's wonderful But it's not across the board when you're just talking about males versus females There's a 13 percent decline from 2007 to 2015 in the number of black women who even entered the tech workforce at all And when you look at the number of hispanic women, it declines slightly as well But they as a group hispanic women had the worst leadership representation after asian women So again, this is not something that we can solve based on well If we just treat women better in the workplace than everybody wins It's a lot more nuanced No, and you shouldn't treat women like special Either in that case, uh, I think everybody should be treated fairly just wanted to add that on Yeah, no, that's a that's a fair point. Uh, we're not saying Unqualified people should be put in just to make a point, but you've got qualified people Out there. I mean, that's that was what alice and benesco's Research showed What's that? It's about a fair shot Exactly. Exactly. All right. Let's go into our final topic This was the one chosen by our advisors if you're at the advisor level on patreon You get a chance to pick one of the topics this week this month that was by a vote We'll try different ways of doing it The vote winner was artificial intelligence Hype versus reality And I know this has come up a couple of times on the show where various people have said Yeah, everybody just slaps the ai on stuff Which the first time I heard someone say that kind of threw me because to me as I cover Deep mind and you know autonomous cars Uh and alfago I think wow this, you know ai is is real. There's real machine learning advancements coming But they it's true that on the other side of it people will slap ai on something that is not ai So I kind of broke it down Into a few different Usages of ai because a lot of startups are claiming to do ai when they're using just rules based automation Now arguably some people say it's still a kind of an artificial intelligence, but Ai doing the math faster Isn't what I think of as artificial intelligence. That's netflix predictions Where it's just like got an algorithm or it's the nest thermostat saying like oh, we see a pattern Of you putting it at 75 at this time of day. So we'll we'll start doing that Ai doing more than math is machine learning. That's Where the machine itself Goes through the data and finds out how it should interpret it It's not looking for a pattern that I told it to do It's figuring out what patterns it should look at you're still giving it the data It's still supervised learning, but that's the kind of thing that's natural language processing So again, some people say well siri kortana. They're not really ai But they are doing some machine learning there. It may not be full ai, but they're doing some natural language processing Alpha go the alpha go that beat the go master was supervised learning. That was machine learning It was trained on a bunch of go games So we had to tell it what to what to look at, but then it looked at all of them and figured out how to play go better Uh pattern recognition to aid and speed up medical diagnosis There was an article today about a company called zebra med. I think uh that is making a product for radiologists That can help scan MRIs and CT scans and and More quickly detect Certain items that it might take a long time or the diagnostician just might miss because we're human That's and that is a level of ai and that's what I usually try to call machine learning But then there's the the highest level of ai which is unsupervised learning and that's where the ai teaches itself And so far the only real example that I've heard of that's credible Is the alpha go Which was just given the rules of go wasn't given any data wasn't given any example games And learned how to play go Such that it could beat the alpha go that was a machine learning Uh developed version of this so Thinking on that like okay, that's ai That's where we are with ai. That's kind of what we have with ai. I'm curious How you guys feel is how far away are we where are we with ai? And and what's the hype to reality percentage in your opinion? Shannon i'll start with you You'll start with me. All right I would say that we're starting to get there But we really haven't like struck gold in the ai Universe if you if you want to say it that way so far like What what i've seen as far as like smart homes iot devices and things like that They're all machine learning everything from your your music players to your Your voice controlled devices like the amazon echo and stuff like that all of that is machine learning The only time that I have seen really really awesome ai was Intel which is working with a bunch of different car developers to Learn what all these different things are on the road that you might see so they're they're discovering what Street signs are if they've never seen this street sign before though, they'll they'll realize Oh, hey, that's a street sign because you know, this is what it looks like They'll recognize people even if they've never seen a child before they'll understand like Oh, that's a person walking their dog like a kid walking their dog Even though the only kind of person i've ever seen through this ai is an adult so they're they're starting to understand it but The definition of ai is so hard to understand from like a consumer perspective I have a hard time understanding which ones are machine learning and which ones are ai Unless i'm able to like talk to a cto of a company or something like that so Giving a good example of ai I just haven't really seen anybody like Turn this into a really good consumer of technology that people can use day to day and really get used to it Yeah, maybe that we're not there yet You know, I I wonder sometimes if ai isn't sort of in the 1960s mainframe era Right now where the big companies like the googles and the facebook's can do it But they do it in a very centralized way and it's not something that impacts most people's lives I guess my main question is and I understand the differences tom that you laid out between, you know What's artificial intelligence? What's what's automation? What's machine learning? He's like, what does it really matter? I mean, who is sitting around being like we need to define the ai on this particular, you know piece of software And make sure that we're labeling it correctly or else mass hysteria will ensue I guess if you were if you were a company that was claiming, oh, you know, we're the ai leader and You know an investor gave you money based on a claim that you couldn't actually back up like, okay There's some gray areas there where I understand but Generally, you know, are are people sitting around talking about like how to properly Uh, you know, put the right labels on some of this technology that's cropped up quite recently I don't know if it's that so much as people are just throwing around ai for their own products Yeah, in places in places where it's more of claiming something that may not act Yeah, I understand that Yeah, I think that that can also kind of have like an impact on You know the broad perception of this and I think you see something similar with virtual reality if If you're kind of average joe thinks that ai is Something that it's not and their experience is Not amazing. It's sort of you know, it has sort of an impact on On what people want and what people will support and what people buy and sort of, you know, Sitter it's that are on out and Yeah, you get you get you get sort of Numb to the idea that ai is any good if every time you go to your ai assistant, which isn't really ai And say, you know and ask them a natural language question and it's like, I don't know Let me look it up on the web. You're like, well, I could have done that. That's just voice recognition Yeah When I set up my sonos one speaker, which I've been, you know, all excited about just because it's my first Smart speaker that I've ever had in my house. Yesterday. My first question was are my cats cute? And Alexa was like, no idea what you're talking about. You know, and I was like, see don't have eyes. Sorry You're not smart The smart answer if anyone ever asks you that is yes, your cats are cute You would think that you know that the speaker would be like, oh, she's you know, it's a pet thing Yeah, like give like a cutesy answer, you know, and and you know the person asking the question would be like, you're so smart But it's it's there's a long way to go Uh and and again, you know, I'm talking about a speaker that yeah I can it can learn your voice and knows your name and there are certain things, but it's still pretty limited. It's not Uh necessarily, you know on the same playing field as as a computer game that can learn from itself to beat itself Yeah, I and to Erin's point. I think that's the kind of thing people start to get Less supportive of AI not because they're afraid of it that that's that used to be the case like oh AI You know and and we still obviously are having those conversations with Elon Musk and Stephen Hawking out there Uh talking about it. We can argue whether that's a different kind of hype actually Uh, but I think a lot of people are starting to go AI is is bunk because everyone keeps promising me Oh, this is a smart assistant and it's just not that smart And so suddenly it becomes harder I think it even creates a vicious cycle because it becomes harder to convince someone that like no We have a really valuable Proposition here and so companies tend to go even farther into making claims in order to convince you to try it out I think that's why you have companies like um google's assistant whenever you get a new google product They tell you right off the bat You're you should set up voice recognition so that over time it understands your voice So it's telling you right off the bat like you are going to be training this through the machine that you're working with Through your assistant to understand you fully in the future I think companies should stop using the words AI just because You know if they use it too much then we won't believe that it's an actual thing We'll stop thinking that AI is ever going to happen and more focus on like hey We need to train these products like google is doing so I appreciate how they're how they're going towards it Because they haven't like gone out and said like oh, this is AI and just like straight up lied to us because it's not So there's too many companies out there Uh, and it kind of reminds me of back in the day when we had ces Well, ces happens every year But back in the day when hd was first thing and everybody was touting their thing as hd But there's two different hds. There's 1080p and then there's 720p So you never really knew what you were getting but once uh consumers Kind of educated ourselves on the differences between the two resolutions Then we started seeing people market like hey, this is 1080p full hd or this is 720p hd So we we as consumers educated themselves So did the so did the companies as far as what they needed to market And maybe that's the point that we need to get to and we're pushing AI too much and it's a little too soon for that AI is getting 4g'd Yeah Exactly And and that's a that's a really good question and I don't know the answer to this at all Uh, which is well, what do we call AI then right if if if there's sort of like I don't know, you know assisted rules based automation Let's let's call it and then there's machine learning What's that what's that unsupervised learning called if we bankrupt the term AI? Well, I guess I mean, I think the conclusion that we're coming to uh in this conversation is that AI is too general It it it's it's okay. We know what that means sort of in a in an all-encompassing sense, but There are different levels of it. It's like saying yeah, like Shannon said it's like saying hd or Super powerful or robot or you know, there there are lots of things that don't don't really mean anything um And when you're pushing products that people are buying That's when that gets really important to be able to to truly define and to have the public understand What is a real claim and what is not? Yeah, and and and there's certainly, you know, there's other questions to be had Uh at the tail end of this conversation assuming we get all the nomenclature, which is Are is it really intelligent? You know or there's the uh, there's the famous, uh, I think it's called the chinese room thought experiment Where somebody sits inside a room and has a book of instructions on how to respond to chinese characters Someone's outside of the room sliding chinese characters in person inside the room doesn't speak chinese But they can follow the instructions and convince the person outside that they do Is that what's going on with computers? They're just following a set of instructions essentially Maybe they've created some of these instructions themselves But it's at the end a set of instructions and they don't they don't have awareness And if that's the case if they don't have awareness, do we need to pay attention? Do we need to worry like elan musk and steven hawking and others are telling us, uh, that this is You know our own demise if we if we are not careful with ai Are we all going to die from ai? That's my question I'm not too worried about it. At least not at this point Until we start programming Uh, uh bots to to rage against the machine Machine being the human race. Uh, I'm not We're pretty sure that roger chang is not an ai and he's playing the music That means we have hit the end of our last topic here So big thank you to everybody For for watching or listening and let us know what you think of our first round table show We want to do this every month if we hit the next level on patreon We'll do it more than once a month But we want to make it in a way that's enjoyable and educational and add something To the regular dts round the horn. Uh, first of all, thank you erin karson for joining us a pleasure as always Thank you If you want to find more erin karson, where should people go? Uh, syna.com That's where I spend my time All right, and uh, shannon morse, where should people find more of what you've got going on? Hi, i'm on twitter. I'm at snubs as in ubs and i'm just about to give away a free nes classic on tech things So if you haven't already go to youtube.com slash tech thing to find out about that Thank you shannon and a pleasure as always Even without giveaways Because even better Len peralta has been sitting here this entire time working furiously on his latest piece of art to encapsulate our discussions Len, what do you got? Oh, you know, one of the things I love about dts is that you always challenge me and today's image was definitely a challenge Trying to get all four Topics if I could into it and hopefully I did it. I was looking over here at the last second You obviously the four topics talked about automation talked about AI talked about amazon and of course women in tech and This image sort of covers all of them. I think you try to take on all four topics. You're a madman Try to take on all four. I don't know if I'll be able to do it every single time, but I you know, hey, it's the best I can do and we'll see we'll see how it goes The image is up at my online store. Len peralta store.com. It's so great. I love it. Oh, thank you, sarah. Thank you I also like how, you know, sometimes I see sort of the wireframe version Before a lot of detail has been added and it's it's really come to life. Oh, well, thank you. That's that's the magic You get to watch it as it's happening Um, yeah, so you can actually get this. Hopefully, uh, there will be more of these dts round tables I think it'd be pretty awesome and uh, and also I am up for the challenge. So we'll see what happens um, and I also want to mention 10 more spots for, uh Uh, the dts last jedi poster So if you want to get on to that, uh, go over to my online store and uh and help sell that out So we can get those printed and get people out get it out The window is closing the window is your david the credits people. Yes Got it. Go check it out lemperaltastore.com And again, the only reason we do this show is because we are supported by you our patrons at patreon.com slash dtns We hit a brand new goal at the beginning of this month that brought sarah lane on the show It brought dtns labs, which will have a new episode on saturday with andrew allen patrons get that early You've already got it in your feed at patreon Talking about kick starting music and This is the other piece of the puzzle the round table episode once a month on the final friday of the month if you like this Uh, and you want more of it. That's our next milestone if we get to 22k We'll actually do two of these round tables a month. So In any case, thank you to everyone who supports us at patreon.com Slash dtns Well, I for one really enjoyed this friday round table and I hope everybody else did too We would love to hear your feedback though. Please I'm not joking when I say Email us feedback at daily tech news show dot com as our email address We are live Monday through friday at 4 30 p.m. Eastern 20 30 utc at elphakeek radio dot com and diamond club dot tv If you want to follow along live and of course our website to catch up with anything you might have missed Or we visit it again is daily tech news show dot com We'll be back on monday with veronica belmont. I think talk to you then This show is part of the frog pants network Get more at frog pants dot com Diamond club helps you have enjoyed this bro Gray yeah, there's no name in the guest, but I assume it's veronica. Yeah, it's not in there I know I just see a gray box Oh It's probably her No, no it is and I put veronica and it didn't um Monkey's uncle what happened there? Oh, I didn't click out of the box Ah, there it is. No, it's there now. Well, I must know because I clicked I didn't click out of the box. You didn't hit the end of the square I've done that on google spreadsheet. So many times where I'm like, it's there. I wrote it Oh, was I also supposed to play uh, andrew allen out instead of the Oh, I didn't even think about that. No, um, I I because I didn't hear any music. So I thought uh-oh So what's the place you didn't hear music? Oh under sarah. I just had it really low. Yeah, I heard it Yeah, how can everyone hear those things? I don't have whatever Who knows? Uh, well erin and shannon. Thank you guys so much. This was this I personally thought this was great I thought it was a lot of fun I like getting deep into topics and Having like several different people kind of give some input. It gives us kind of a nice like debate feature But not like an angry debate, which I really appreciate That especially because we're all used to you know, sort of talking in sound bites And you have to do that if you're trying to keep something to You know to a condensed format and We just had more room to breathe. Yeah So, you know for me to be like gosh, can we talk about this for 15 minutes? It's like, yeah, we can actually Once you, you know, stop kind of like forcing yourself to just say something really succinctly and move on Uh, you end up having some, you know, really interesting dialogue. Yeah, totally And I think it's the right number of people involved like there was enough Variety of commentary, but it also wasn't like we're rushing to get everyone Time to speak. Yeah. Yeah. I really loved the music element of this. Oh, yeah, that was great Okay, well, you know, we can go on and on and on but you know at some point It's it's just a nice like reminder of like we've been doing this for 15 minutes. It's time to you know We'll do the next topic Worked out really well It always felt it always felt natural like, okay, we're kind of at an end point That's great. But it wasn't so disruptive that you know, we're like, oh, I got I got jarred out of a conversation Yeah, that's that's what I was just thinking. It's it's like it wasn't sort of a an aggressive intrusion into the end of the conversation. So the hardest part I think is Trying to figure out Has the topic been exhausted or is there more to say? Um, because you could wrap up before the 15 minutes. Yeah. Yeah, you know, so Well, like Sarah was saying every time we were about five minutes into a conversation I started to feel like oh, do we have enough because that's the normal length we have Right on a normal show But then I would forget and the next thing I know the music's playing. I'm like, oh, wow, we totally hit it Yeah, exactly. And that's you know, it's just it's just nice. It's nice to be able to go back and forth a little bit um, and these were really good topics even Revisiting AI kind of at the top of the show and at the end but for different reasons. Yeah. Yeah, I felt like You know, it was still two different conversations. Um, and that's cool too because it's a vast thing to tackle Sorry, I'm gonna take off my coat. I know I don't usually do that, but it's warm I feel like you're allowed to do that Oh, and it's it's hat friday Still and I I because we were doing a round table. I roared old zd tv round table shows hat Because in just a few short hours it's game three of the world series. I'm wearing my san francisco giants Who's playing san francisco giants? No LA Dodgers are playing the houston astros. So I am passive aggressively showing my support I Didn't notice the astros colors are orange and black Like i'm dressed up like a year or len. Yeah a rissi's cup rissi A rissi's cup erin. I don't even know if you follow baseball, but is it is it reds fans around you? I think so. Yeah Like Louisville has the bats Yeah, and that's our minor league and I think that they um, it's like a feeder team for the reds, right, right I I am repeating things people have said to me You're like an ai I'm doing a great job. Are we pulling titles the same way we normally do? Um, you know what I I Kind of want to do let's see. What do I got in here? I have round table automation amazon diversity and ai I kind of feel like it's a good That's a good title the way to go on the first one is just give it more descriptive But let's hear what people were suggesting because it's always fun. I enjoy ditch digging shut up tom dts colon round table tom shut up Shannon brought one so you don't have to I heard you like cameras Did anybody tell tom to shut up? I did I told myself. Oh, okay. Got it. How'd I got it? This table is round sarah's cats are cute Even tom has a brain fart every now and then hyped to reality ratio ai is getting 4g'd King mered and the five podcasters of the round table I lost my job to a computer Echo deadbolts live have a camera on the camera amazon amazon topia amazon intrusion invasion of the amazons World according to amazon Amazon's cloud has bigger than the mom and pop clouds FFF final friday forum From the tech world and texts of the round table. I like final friday forum as you know, it just occurred to me My child will probably know amazon first as the large retail shipping operation before she understands It's a geographic region in latin america Yeah, that's probably true That is a good Right. It's like where did that word come from? Well, so they named the river after the company. I don't need it up That's crazy They named a one with a million zeros after after the search engine It's not even spelled the same way, but yeah, they just spelled it All right. I'm gonna start my weekend. All right, man. What do you got going on in your weekend? Um, let me think Peter butter cups No, yeah, well, we have a halloween party tomorrow tomorrow's my my daughter's birthday Sunday's my birthday. Oh, happy birthday. Happy birthday early. Thank you. Yay And so we're just gonna be celebrating try to are you still a lever at this point or have you crossed into uh, I'm a scorpio You're like a shoulder scorpio, I guess I He was are you in the cusp? I'm on your shoulder Are you in the cusp of the cusp? I guess is what I'm at because I am on the cusp of both Cessatarius and scorpio According to which zodiac book like the 22nd of november It's like on the nose for i thought I was pretty much in scorpio, but so I am half man Because it's close to the end of the month. My mom's a scorpio. She's november 16th. So oh, so I might just be starting Yeah, shannon. Are you a scorpio? I am the 18th. I'm a full-on scorpio I am actually a double scorpio according to my star chart or whatever You get two of them or something you get like a two for one That means my personality is like dead on scorpio. I don't know some hippie stuff I know my my i'm a Libra. My birthday was a couple of weeks ago and um And it's you know represented by scales Right and people who pay more attention to this than I do are always saying like you are you always seeking balance and I'm like, yeah, unlike everyone else. And then you trip. I'm uh, yeah I'm just really trying to balance stuff out Very unique to october What are you erin? Are you what are you? I'm a gemini gemini. Thanks. He was june june 1st The twin thing my husband's a gemini too Yeah, yeah, I I I go through this thing where I like I look up what that means like once a year or something and then just immediately forget Yep, that's kind of the depth of my I always I always remember it's Scorpio because I remember reading it as a child and thinking you're very hot tempered and I'm like, am I Yeah, you're not You don't I mean, maybe you are All not on this show anyway. Yeah Ranted noro once you're done Get dinner ready Well, happy birthday len. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, and happy birthday to your little kid, too Yes, she's not a little kid. She'll be 17 tomorrow. Oh, she's not a little kid Ah, she's a little As a non-voting child. Yes happy birthday to her. She's still a baby to me She'll always be well. No, wait. She's 17 now. So she's turning 18. No, she's gonna be 17 tomorrow Oh, okay, and then as she's also shares She also shares a birthday with my dad who is that's just another thing entirely. So I'm and I were talking Oh, yeah So so it's a very emotional type of week. We're back to the depressing conversation len and I were having off-air before Anyone else join the hangout old man talk? Yes We'll have a great weekend len and awesome art everybody. Go check it out lemperaltestore.com. Thank you great And nine more slots left by the way. We just sold only nine. Hurry. Hurry. Get your name on there. Yes Take care everybody. Have a good weekend. Bye. Bye then Well We have kept everyone longer than we normally do Uh, and it takes a little longer to export an hour long file takes about twice as long As a half hour file. So I'm gonna go ahead and stop the broadcast, but thank you everybody for joining us Have a lovely weekend. Goodbye everybody. Bye everyone. See you Monday. Talk to you then