 Welcome everybody back on Segal Talks here at the Martin E. Segal Theatre Center at the Graduate Center CUNY in Manhattan, New York City at City University. And it is week 12 of our daily talks with theater artists from around the world, a global view on how the corona crisis, the time of corona has affected the life and the work of everybody, but especially artists, theater artists, performance artists, and we feel this is an incredible time of upheaval, of change, of interruption, of disruption. And as always, what we have always done in the Segal Center, but now especially at the field, it is important and significant to hear voices from artists on the right side of history on the right side on the struggle, the complex struggle for freedom and for liberties. And we have to listen to them and their lessons and their experiences of significance. As Tanya Pogera yesterday said, Tanya from Cuba, he gives the last part in wonderful talk from a very complicated time in Cuba where people now stand 12, 15 hours online for food, for the government more or less is declaring their own people as enemies now. She said that, you know, what is in our might help us might save us change our lives and we have to change ourselves and first in an authentic way, but we also have to change the world how it is as we see it's not working forms aren't working structures aren't working. It's a disaster, especially in America. And it's an open Fukushima catastrophe, as Richard Chakno said, well, look at from the roof and, and we are horrified and especially in America now with the killing of George Floyd and so many others tensions that were they already breaking out are obvious and we all hope that something will happen that is real change lasting change. In our talks to now almost 6070 artists or 80 artists from around the world we have visited Africa, but today we have a very special guest with us is hope as data from Rwanda. He's the founding director of the the Masherika creative and performing arts a company one of the leading companies in Rwanda, and Rwanda of course is a country that went through a horrific horrific civil war in 94 there were once a before of course in the in the 60s but it was a horrific one where it was a genocide against the Tutsis, Tua and the moderate Hutus a day after assassination of the president in in actually in the time we live now it was I think in in April and 500,000 to a million people were killed with machetes and rifles 250,000 to 500,000 women were raped. It's spread into Zaire and now Congo where 200,000 people are horrific events speaking of tensions racial ethnic tensions and the country somehow is back or is trying to get back on its feet and theater has played a role and hope created for the 10th anniversary of the genocide and the 20th in 2005 and 2004. And so we're going to hear from her about this unique country and she also got the award the Marsa Gwani award and Gilda award from the International Week women in theater professional women in theater and so hope. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time to be with us. Where are you now and what time is it. I'm in Rwanda, Central Africa, or the heart of Africa or the land of a thousand hills or the land of milk and honey, whichever way you want to go. And right now it's 6pm. It's 6pm with four minutes past and it's a beautiful day very sunny and we are going on with life as it is right now. What city are you in. I'm in Kigali. I'm in Kigali right now. Yeah, Kigali. Yeah, what's your neighborhood tell us a little bit and how is the time of Corona what's happening on the streets. Very little of course there. The Corona has hit. It's a global crisis of course we are not unique to it and we have we are still under lockdown but a few things have opened up. The streets are not as busy as they used to be because different organizations and different institutions or companies have been told to like you know have less people to of course going by the COVID rules of social distancing and wearing masks. So everyone on the street is wearing a mask they are walking with one meter path and it's just crazy to see how humans are choreographing themselves on these streets and you know, after Corona things just don't look the same. And I don't know what is going to happen after here but it's it today I was in town and I was just looking and watching how activities are slowly coming back to life and it is not the rap and city I used to see the speed is slower. People look less motivated when they're walking usually you would see people walking very fast going to some place but it's now they are a little slower. There is some sense of normality coming in place but it's not as what I used to see before. So tell me about was there a lockdown I used to under lockdown when did it start. Well the lockdown started around the month of I think around the end of March coming to April. And we went with like what the whole world was going through so we all went under lockdown of course. And it's really come at a very crucial moment when me and my theater company, we are working on a performance to commemorate victims of the random genocide against Tutsi in 1994. So usually the 7th of April is a very big day. It's a national day for us to mourn those victims. And as artists, we have always been part of this recovery journey we've worked on different performances every year, working with the country where we are theme wise. So our theme for some reason this year was breathe and we are working on a performance called breathe. And then suddenly the rules of COVID came unexpectedly and we felt we were told to stop rehearsals and just all of us get to go back and go in the lockdown as everyone, which was very saddening for us. But again, we had to accept and know that it was in the faith of, it was in good faith. And we had to look for a way how do we mourn our lost ones in terms of COVID. Because we're used to like gathering in big numbers, holding hands, hugging, crying together, even when we are rehearsing these performances, but this was not going to be the same. But as artists, we tried to work out a plan B, which was like a flame is very important, lighting a candle is very important in these times. How about we as performers go light a candle in our homes and let that candle be our guiding light, be our guiding light to the home of hope. If you're dancer, try and engage and interact with that candle. What does that light mean to you? And then it turned out that in that time, the world was looking for light. We're all looking for this light. And I was very hopeful that whatever we are going through as a human race, there was going to be time and we go through this because the humans, we are wired with the mass of resistance. We could really survive this. Our performers went into the East and were sharing videos internally of dancing with the candle in their homes. What does that look like? So it kept them busy, but it kept us trying to make us stay sane as artists because there was a lot of now, a lot of anxiety, fear, what next? Trying to exist in the unknown space that we found ourselves in. Because I found myself, it looked like we are walking on this highway and suddenly you drop deep in a dark hall and then suddenly you're searching for the light to come out of this dark deep hall, out of this journey. And slowly you start looking for your way out, looking for a path and that has been our journey. But when we got here by then, for me, it was a time to reflect as an artist. I was like, okay, we are now on lockdown. Invents are being cancelled all over the world. We have an event in July, which is a festival created for the sake of humanity, Women Arts Festival, which happens after 100 days of genocide that we mourn. So we are like, we cannot just wait for 100 days, 50 days, 20 days for this day. This is the time for us as artists to work more, to reflect more, to re-craft our work. So at that point, that's when we started on a journey called 100 Stories of Home. And we started a weekly series on our social media platforms and that also kept us on our feet. Actually, we've been very, very, very busy. Tell me, it's a hundred stories of home? Yes. So tell us a little bit. So you reached out or who organized this or 100 artists participated and created? Actually, it was not strictly tied around the number 100. The 100 just became a reminder that it took 100 days for one million people, over one million people to be killed, you know, to be systematically targeted and killed. So 100 days for us was just a name to help us, but we were open to more stories. So it was not just strictly 100 artists, it was 100 stories. And any story could have as many people as it could. So the people organizing this is me and my team and that usually organizes a festival called Ubumuntu Arts Festival or Ubumunu Arts Festival, Ubumunu means being human. And it's a festival that goes by the philosophy of Desmond Tutu. We are human together. Oh, I am because you are, you are because I am. So my team, we are like, we have, we cannot cancel the festival, we cannot die twice. How do we now migrate our festival to a digital platform? So we started working on how to run this weekly series, and we sent out a Google form to any artist using our platforms who was interested in sharing. And we gave them the guidance of the theme of the festival, which was stop, breathe, live. So we're asking for these kind of stories. And from Monday to Friday, these stories run in different categories. So like Monday, it's curated for young people and youth or youth. And that Monday we called it Flames of Hope. So it is works from young people off for young people created for just with that theme. So on Tuesdays we do what we call a home chat with Sonia. A home chat with Sonia is where one of our presenters pays a visit is how the festival, you know, pays a visa, locks on the door of artists and checks on them. How are you doing today? How has it been going? What are you doing? It was like our way of just paying a visit to artists across the globe. And we've been running that every Tuesday on Instagram live from 6pm to 7pm. So it's a live visit. She has a camera and the audience is the same moment as Sonia does. Yeah. So Sonia goes live on Instagram and interviews and artists from anywhere that we have picked around the world. And you have two of them engaging on Instagram live for one hour. And we have people participating and doing a Q&A questions. And we do that, we live tweet that on our Twitter handles and the IGTV video of course already saves it. All these series are there since we started. If people can visit our social media platforms they will find all this work is saved on IGTV. So it's like series that have been running but that's for Tuesday. On Wednesday we run what we call Beyond Now. Beyond Now is any works that are experimental new works of art that artists are coming up with. Or artists that the kind of works and it involves like projection mapping and all that. So it is new works of today or projecting tomorrow or what artists have been doing in the COVID time. So we call that series Beyond Now. So we go to Thursday and that we have another IG live or Instagram live session for an hour, which is dubbed discussions with diaspora. So the ask discussions with the diaspora is whereby, again, one of our hosts checks on the random people who are living outside Rwanda or have lived Rwanda and have returned checking on them on with one main question. What is the definition of home? What does home mean to you? Where is home? And you know it's been amazing just listening to all these stories and again these stories are said. And then our last program, new content is uploaded on Friday and we have called it Reapers of Soul. Reapers of Soul is a lot of work going in healing works. Healing works or testimonial works are very deep stories that you know share our experiences as human beings. But stories that evoke and awaken empathy and reminding people that what my pain maybe today could be a pain tomorrow. And that is what we've called Reapers of Soul. It is that kind of curation that invites back soul into our space of art. Is this kind of a documentary style like people tell their life on the Friday sessions or? On Friday sessions, we collect different works that fall in this theme. So it could be short videos of three minutes, two minutes, one poem that talks about depression. It could be, you know, some works that have been reproduced previously and we use like trailers, but it is that story that helps our viewers. That facilitates our viewers to go through an introspective journey just to question what is a human being, where am I in all this. So they are quite deep stories, which I was at first very not comfortable to share with people online because I was not sure how they are going to be received because of they are quite heavy stories. And these are the stories that help us go to places. Tell us what is the story people tell you? Really, I mean, a story for example, for example about crimes against humanity in times of genocides, for example, crimes against humanity in times of war turn areas. When crimes that go into homicides, you know, it's about the wounds that people carry. It's about those kind of real life stories. And we call them like they're in a form of testimonies like testimony or theater in that kind of direction. But they are quite strong stories that I was afraid, because when we use them in the present in the physical spaces where I perform, you find that these stories could open wounds. There are stories that I used to help you tap in that space that you've always run away from within to just reclaim yourself and believe in yourself and just be, you know, pick up yourself and collect yourself and keep working regardless of what you've gone through. However, that may be. So that's incredible. 100 artists, it's all online, it's using Instagram, live Twitter, instead of writing stories about what happened, you listen to your audience, your viewers, your artists, they tell their stories and you just give them a digital platform. Do you have a little TV studio where you run that from? Who says three minutes now, five minutes here? Who makes the decision and how is that technically done? We have a content manager who works hand in hand with me and we curate all the contest. That's the way we used to do the festival because the festival I'm talking about has been running for five years. We started it in 2015 and the way that festival was curated is the same way we've been trying to create this series, but only that it was in a different format, that only that we are now curating for people who are not going to see physically but an imaginary audience out there online. But we do it. How many people, do you have more audience now or less audiences than the festival? It's building. The audience for the festival has built since day one. It started in 2015 but the audience who had really focused on was a physical audience where people travel to Rwanda to be part of this festival to have the experience of this festival. And when we decided the festival was not going to happen because of COVID-19, we said we cannot cancel this festival. We need to keep going. So we said how do we now migrate? How do you do a digital migration with this kind of festival? So we've been trying to try our best to keep it the way it was but of course the language has to change. You have to remember people can't stay on screen for a long time. There are things you are paying attention to and people need consistency. So the audience has actually, an online audience has been building up and when you go to Facebook page, you find that the followers have really increased over 20,000. And you have the website, people are visiting the website. Our YouTube link is working and Instagram, you know, it's all, it's just, we have to like, we have like all these apps you have to like distribute your content and try to understand the language. Which language works on Instagram? Which language works on Twitter? How do I now take this to Facebook? So we've been juggling with which content goes where or shall we do a neutralized content? So we've been doing working around that. How do we create one main content that can fit all the platforms? So you have over 20,000 followers, people who come daily to your events. What did you learn? You said we had to learn the language of each of them platform. Tell us a bit, what did you learn and what works and what doesn't work? Well, we have to learn that before we are looking at focusing on Rwanda as the audience, but now Rwanda has transformed into a global audience. And we learned that people have challenges of data connection and during COVID for some reason internet was not as fast as it used to be because people are all plugged into the internet. So we needed to make our content shorter and to the point. So we learned doing very short videos, but which video loading it was not enough. We needed to unpack it the following day. So just like the same thing you do with the TV previously it was like this. So we do yesterday's video, how do these characters and this and this and that. But before that video is loaded, we also put some content and introduce that video with why we are talking, why that video and why people should. So we've created that consistency of like introduction of the content. Then you upload the content and then you unpack the content and then you go to the next. You unpack this means the artists and you talk about the work. Yes, we are one pack artists because most of them have generously like shared the artist gifts to the to the platform. And I think we had to learn how to be to unpack and talk about these artists as well, not just uploading but credit is not enough. But how about these artists who are these artists. So how long how long are the videos and how long is the unpacking and how long is the announcement of the announcements are just captions of like short artworks with the quotations or with them with quotations and introducing the title. If the title is maybe like the conference of the birds, we talk about that type of the performance with the conference of the birds. And then we write something about the conference of the birds the title the company and the short by and the short summer of the conference of the birds. So that is the information that comes before before the video. So the video it really depends they vary between two minutes and five to seven and around 10 minutes so we don't go beyond 10 minutes because that's quite too long content for someone to follow, considering the fact that there is data, they have to invest in their data in this kind of things. So you need to like make sense in the shortest way possible. And then the unpacking is basically another caption with a photograph from the, from the previous content. So we make flyers, we make flyers with our theme, and we get a photograph and remind people that the video that was uploaded yesterday was about this and talked about this and this and it's more like a recap or a summary of what we just so so we don't just like throw up their content and just leave it to be on its own. We have to accompany content right from the time it comes on board and after it has come on board. Incredible. And how do you have people access to the Internet? Is it easy? Do you pay? Is it expensive? How is it in Rwanda? Well, as long as I've lived, Internet has always been a challenge in all ways. Even when you're taught Internet is fast, sometimes it is slow. So I think Internet still has its unknown mechanisms that technicians don't know yet. Even when you feel like it's, it's really running slow, people tell you where it's going fast, you know, so it's also some unknown weapon we have to just get used to. But it's expensive of course. Internet is expensive. Yeah, and Internet is expensive. It's not easy to access. And that has been one of the biggest challenges of our artists who want to like take photos of themselves performing and sending us videos. Because we have done also some challenges called like one challenge you've really done was called hashtag dance my story in partnership with the German Embassy and some artists really they call it a video that they would send over was not really good one because they have a bad telephone one because where they were there's not enough lighting three. I mean, uploading the content they can't really send like a long video that have to just be short. So that challenges around data and audio visual spaces for this kind of work. But incredible. I mean, we are everybody is trying to figure out in the world what to do you guys are already doing this in Rwanda over three months I guess three, three and a half months 100 days every day you put out a cannon I thought it was just the Segal Center we in America I think we are the only institution or in the industry that has a content every day related to a theater performance but you also put up everything every day a new project that hasn't been seen before that isn't that is quite remarkable as a response and even big theaters are struggling in America even in Europe. So that is that is impressive and really my respect and congratulations and coming I'm sure also out of the importance art has and reconciliation in Rwanda what role has art played in in dealing with this. These unspeakable crimes that happened a million people called killed in the in 100 days it's just. It's just hard to even put my mind around it and so so how what role has art played in society for for for working with history and past. Well what there are others played a very big role because when it comes to a safe space people need a safe space they trust a space where they can listen to things that speak to them directly to the heart. And that has been a great tool in taking in having a conversation or starting conversations with with with inner conversation within a person himself so. We find that like after after the genocide. A lot of musicians were composing music that was helping people here recover or inspire or give them some some sort of energy inspiration to let them to keep going to encourage them that you know. This happened and this but but you know there's still a life to go you have the courage to move so there was a lot of inspiring music that was helping people drumming hard to hear. Yeah yeah not necessarily drumming but music but also drumming was women women started drumming which wasn't weren't doing that before right. Yeah there's some women of course drumming and I mean it has been all sorts of forms of art visual arts performance testimonial theater. People did what they can just like what you're seeing right now every artist is trying to make a contribution so every artist at that point was working a contribution in just helping the government or the country get back on its knees through any form of art. Did the audience come to all the artistic offerings of the gendered were audiences hungry were they interested or were they skeptical how. Or the audiences I mean audiences that in different forms that audiences that when you advertise your work of art or when people gathered in the in the stadium for for these big commemoration days. There was a lot of music and poetry happening there. There was also way an audience coming to your work of art means they can also be able to tune in on radio. And when they tune in on radio and they listen to music. They are also audience in terms of listening that listen to the music that is speaking to them that is helping them, you know, is touching on a special place within their hearts. So, there is also that kind of content that went on radio and, you know, and there was that kind of art that went to the people, and there was that kind of people had to come to the arts. So, there are some performances that went out in the villages or out in their communities, you know, to support in things to do their own justice and reconciliation. So they performed in the on the markets on the platzas or how does this. What did they do the companies and they went to villages when they go to the villages. I mean, any space is performing space depending on whether it is safety when people can come and they're all comfortable and they can stand and watch a performance. So it really is anywhere in the refugee camps in markets, road shows, just on the streets on the streets of busy streets in towns. One thing with art, it has the magic power that when it is, you place it somewhere, it's like pollen underneath and the bees, or it's like the bees and the honey. So when it's like that pollen of our lives, when you place it in a place, people come to it because the everyone is has in them and there's something that speaks to them. It brings entertainment brings it's some sort of vitamin or medicine to their lives or healing or art is just a great companion to our human race. And I think that's why people are stressed out as long as it's it's that art that is helping the human race focus on values of humanity. Because we've also had art that has destroyed like during the genocide, a lot of art was used to destroy or to incite violence. So there's the art that insights violence, the art that builds. So depending on what you want to use your art for people always go there and depending on how their mindsets are being wired. And what works and then because we are also now looking in America where do we work now what do we do we don't have the big theaters we have to you know, different forms like forms you say where you go out to places and religious people. What stories do you tell is that written plays is a puppetry dance. What form of theaters works when when you go and tell stories about the history of Rolanda what works. I think what really works is any form of art, but as long as you know your target audience. If you're going to if your target audience are going to be five year olds. If you're going to create content, maybe that's the kind of audience that maybe will be interested in puppets, you know, will be interested in, and like young people's kind of works, and maybe what kind of space where those children so what we've had to do. We don't have facilities as you may have in America like big buildings to perform in, but we've, we've tried to make the spaces wherever people are be part of our story. So if I come to perform in your village, and maybe we look for a space outside in the outdoor space, and then you look at the levels, you know, you play with the levels of the landscape. You're like, Okay, this landscape is high maybe that's our performance should be, and maybe the audience would be comfortable here so you play with the space, and we've had to have spaces also be part of our storytelling. So, instead of being inclined or which space is there theater is there not know we don't care about venues. Because now, when you commissioned me to do work, I asked you what is the audience what is the edge range. What is the space like, and whatever space it may be, we as artists I think have the art and tools to adapt ourselves to any space. But when you let the space define what you have to do then becomes a problem when you say oh I don't have enough lighting well I don't have like addressing room I don't have like what you know. So we need to like get used to like make shift spaces and where spaces also become our stories because there's a reason why that space is the way it is. And that story in that space should not be edited out when you go to perform in that space. It should it should be present because the people who live in that space are naturally connected to this that space. It's nice to look like you've come, like a visitor to share conversation, other than a visitor who says oh I can't sit in this chair or I can't sit in this. Oh I'm like you know you come like that visitor ready to adapt yourself and say okay. You know whatever they eat you eat it whatever they see but but you you come with a vision and mission and say well. How about this so and also you come as with like your performance should come as a conversation not an imposed something to this community if you want them to be part of it. So that's what we do we do a lot of visits before we take performances out in communities, and we also pre test the works we take pre testing meaning we want the audience to be part of our script. The authors want the audience so the community we're taking these works want them to have a sense of ownership so that this the work does not look alien to them when you take it. Incredible. So you write a story or you improvise you take themes. So they commission you and you look at the space how do you come to maybe give us an example what what do you create. For example, they tell you there is a, there is some research that there's a corona outbreak in this village, for example. And then you say what is corona you start educating yourself about this corona virus. So you ask them what are the facts how does it. What is the corona and how does it. How do people get infected with your corona. How many do people understand it are they resisting the information around it are they buying in it. What are the obstacles why is it hard for people to understand that taking pre questions of wearing a mask saying homes is why are they not buying that. So when you come to us with that research, we craft we come up with a we come up with a draft of a synopsis we come up with a synopsis we say maybe given given the information you gave us the data you collected the research you have. So what we think should be the synopsis. But before we can approve it, we want to get a few focal points in that village where we can take this story and read it to them want to see whether it connects with them want to see if the characters in this play resonate with the characters. You know, at the facts right to this is it coming home. So we take that synopsis back to their community where the information was got. So the people in that community tell us what you know. Oh, I know that woman or that doesn't exist. Oh yes this oh you know they start becoming part of editors they edit and write the script without knowing. So they help us they they help us develop characters like that so we go back to our desk so we call all this process desk research because we are still on the desk writing what what in the normal theater as I would call table work, we are still on the table trying to create a story so we come now we write and develop the other characters and write what looks like a draft of the first script. So we go and read the script back to them. So how they react helps you know the strength and the weaknesses of the story you're going to take. So after that you go back to your desk and say well let's change a little bit about all this is perfect so that's when we get on our feet and start rehearsing that play. So when we rehearse that play, and then we go back to the same community and start telling people or there is a company coming to perform. Maybe we target a market place we target or but we work with the local leaders. So we take back that story now to them, and when they watch it, you should see their reactions it's amazing. They're like, Oh, I know that. Oh, my lips just right next to all that guy. Oh, I know that I know somebody who doesn't do that. So at some point we want to do that intervention so we stopped it's more like forum theater. Sometimes we need the intervention, and we create stop moments, we pause in the show, so that they can intervene. They can also be part of the performance. So that's in interviewing they have questions or play. Yeah, sometimes we start with them we give we have like kept so promotional material so it's a whole 360 communication strategy of mass media. And this whole communication mass strategy means you have the performance, but you have also promotional materials around that. You have the caps you have the flyers you have the t-shirts. So you tell them, who got the message right. Who did this if you do this we have a t-shirt for you, you know so you pay you, it becomes a win-win game. And then the person asked the best question we give you a care. So they ask questions, and then you look for an answer in the audience who can answer that person so it becomes a whole communal space of just dealing with the corona in that time. Incredibly socially engaged art involving audiences. I like what you said, there's a reason why the space is the way the space is and you adapt to that could you share a synopsis like what is the synopsis of one of the stories you created. Can you tell us one of the synopsis maybe it could be let's say about domestic violence, let's say for domestic violence, and maybe, and then maybe there is the law that protects this woman in this house. And because they are not legally married, the man feels like he can throw away this woman anytime, but they have five children together. And the woman is the one who goes to the garden every day to dig to make food to to to make to bring food on the table. And she sells some of her crops but what the man does with the crops is he just takes the money and goes to the bar to drink and in most cases get another side girlfriend. So the other woman with five children is looking after the house, the husband and the husband's girlfriend. So the woman gets to the point and says enough is enough and the man threatens that if you go first of all the the money you don't want me to spend comes from the food which you grow in my land. So you go or you stay. But there is a law that protects this woman. So till the conflict escalates and the local, the local leaders have to intervene and educate the two that there's a law that protects them. Sometimes it's because the woman never knows that there's a law that protects her and the man that there's a law that protects that woman so he shouldn't use that power of being the all of the land to treat the woman the way he wants to. He has to give us some level of respect so something like that is what you find that some people in local communities do not understand the laws that protect them. And you have to go and help them and sensitize them about the law that protects them. Incredible so it's about laws. Telling about Corona how to deal with it giving facts how to protect so you are, you know, almost like a healers and doctors and storytellers and elderly to look for the next generation. You mentioned before the big ceremony the reconciliation was in a in a stadium and where can you tell us what you did there you created both national ceremonies if I understand right. Yeah, can you tell us what you did the first and the second what did you learn how did it work. It's just incredible that a theater artist was asked to create the national reconciliation there was what not a political speech. It was not a rugby game but they said no we want to have a theater artist create something what did you do. Well, the whole journey was what I would describe an intensive PhD course on creating art for healing but at that brings people together. So my first experience was 10 years after the Rondon Geno said again is to see this was around 2004. And we're given two weeks to create work and my training background I'd never done stadium theater. I've always done black box theater things like targeting 400 people 300 people, if there are many maybe 700 or at least maximum 3000 people. So when we're approached by the genocide Memorial and the Minister of Culture at that time, we're asked to create a piece of art, looking at the journey of memory and hope. And we asked them how long did we have to create this piece of work and they said, you have two weeks. Now here I am from background where it takes three months to just make one performance at least to write it to produce it to you know bring it, you know to shift from text to text to state. So at that time, we were, I, we were supposed to do that piece in two weeks and when we asked where we're going to do this work they said the soccer stadium. And we're like how many people were we, they were they expecting they said 30,000. So every answer I got was making me shrink and shrink and shrink two weeks 30,000 people soccer stadium. And this was going to be a very big challenge. So 10 years after that genocide that story of genocide we're going to talk about. We were working hand in hand with the Kigali genocide Memorial and they were collecting a lot at that time they're also building the Memorial actually. So at that time they're collecting a lot of content and I remember the man who was helping us work together this was from Scotland, and they had created a lot of content and collected a lot of scripts and testimonies. And we had had this encounter of finding a 10 year old whose mother had survived in a church pregnant with him for four days. And the mother has to narrate this story every day. And the shocking experience at that time was like what questions does this 10 year old boy have. So at that moment that sparked the journey of why don't we look at this story through the eyes of a child. Why don't we look at genocide through the eyes of a 10 year old boy asking why. So that's how the script started working and then we called a few artists, and we looked through different testimonies that had been collected by the genocide Memorial. And we just picked testimonies of survivors who were either 12 or 13 or 10 years or 15 at the time of genocide. And our whole piece was looking at testimonies of young people at that time. So what we did was this young boy of 10 years old became the narrator. And then this was a new way of now working in a performance that does not have really beginning, middle and end, or does not have the usual curve of, you know, building the arc and then going to the resolution part. We are like okay, so we have different stories of different survivors, those are going to be the pillars of our story. And we had been asked to do 100 minutes long performance depicting the 100 days the genocide took place. So we use this young boy to question why. So he was like the thread of these testimonies which are like pillars of this script. So the script had a journey of memory and hope. And when it came to memory, we are going to as more darker we are talking through we are going through the deep stories and our trust is these young children had to see at the time of genocide. But again, we had to explore how do we shift from this to hope. So hope became the hopes and dreams of these young people. So the whole performance ran like that. And it was a very difficult process of course we started with just 10 performers, but the whole cast ended up being 1000 because the space was big. So from 10,000 as the core group that was working on the story, we built it to 200 artists, 100 musicians, 100 dancers, plus about 10 young narratives. But the process of doing this work was also another very challenging one because there was a lot of emotional breakdown and a little bit of something a little bit of gesture a little bit of, you know, any fear, anything that we worked out with images. And really sparked trauma sparked tears in our space of rehearsals and in most cases, we had to stop and stop because we needed to recover from the heavy emotions are going through and the emotions of the reliving the stories. Exactly. And the music that for me that that is the time that made sense to me that silence was now also becoming a character in our space of creativity. Because there are moments, words failed us in this space. There are moments where we had to just to go quiet, all of us, and slowly look for transition from that silence to the music to the dance and poetry that we're hoping to bring in this performance. And I let the process evolve naturally and to start by just someone humming a song or by someone playing a flute, or by just a dancer trying to do some stretch. And that's how the performance organically made it because you cannot tell people cry quickly, hurry up. We have no time. You remember we have only a week left to the performance. You couldn't do that. You just needed to trust the process, listen and connect to every moment and let that moment guide you to the next. And that's how it worked because if it worked like that with the performers, it was going to work like that with the big audience. So time came and this performance, which we call today Africa's Hope was performed in the stadium. And it was my first time to see mass trauma happening because a little bit of something from this performance sparked trauma in the crowd of 30,000 people. And while the Red Cross was dealing with one victim who's gone, who has encountered the past and they're screaming and another person screams and another one screams. And then the Red Cross people are running around the stadium and taking people to hospital. It was just a whole, during the performance, it was just a whole breakdown of emotions, but we were prepared for that. We were prepared for that because in our spaces it happened to us as well. The artists cried. They broke down. And one question in the space was, shall we say the truth or shall we not? If we don't say the truth, then who shall say it? Do we have the courage or shall we let somebody speak the story? And we had to recollect ourselves as artists in that space to say it's our duty to say the truth, to carry the truth. Because these stories that have been given to us are gifts that have been shared with the world. And we have to create a channel to take back these stories to the world as gifts. But with care and clarity, being very careful not to distort what that story or what that testimony was carrying or contained. Yeah. So that was our experience. But for me, it was a beginning of a new journey to do the theatre I do today. Even if it was a production we were working on at that time, it became for me a school of art. It turned out to be a school of soul for art. Because in today, every story that is given to me as hope, I try to encourage my fellow artists that this is a gift passed on to us. We need to pay attention and listen to the story and let the story take the big moment. And we are just microphones, we are just the state, we are just the channel, we are just the gates of truth to the cave of these stories of hope. To listen to the stories and you said the art has to be about healing. We have that moment in America now where that horrific history of slavery is more at the open perhaps as ever the killing of George Floyd. I don't know if you follow all the American news, the civil unrest. Tomorrow is a big day commemorating the end when finally in some places and also in Texas when they finally reached the slaves, the news that officially slavery was ended. There was the law, but they didn't know about it like what you talk about in the village. What advice do you have to get over this to reconcile to, I know what you created was a ritual in that big stadium but what do you say to American artists or African American artists or white artists, how should one deal with that national trauma that is underlying generations and centuries. What would could be something that it helps the time of Corona brought that out very strongly. What's your advice. Well, I'm not a big expert on this one but what my advice is that if it happened before it can happen again. And it's my prayer that what happened in Rwanda should not happen anywhere else. It's not a good place to be. And as artists, we have the power to restore peace. We have the power to heal. Because the world needs us right now. As artists, our work has never been easy. This is the time now for us to use art to call for empathy in a space where empathy has worked out to remind people that my pain could be a pain tomorrow. You know, to remind people that if history has repeated itself before it can repeat itself again right now. And also to try and be careful as artists not to be to listen to our conscience because we have the truth. We, me as an outsider, somebody watching America, I can tell that hate has been enthroned in people's hearts. They have washed hate and hate has become the king. And this hate has made created a dehumanization kind of norm that has been accepted. And once dehumanization comes into our space and in our language. And dehumanization starts with very little things. It's when you start calling someone something else. It's when you start levels. And that journey can lead to the worst of the worst stains of humanity. And if we can work together as artists and try to bring people together and try to stitch these broken glasses together because it's possible. And not just be bystanders, but be players to call back what has worked out which is love to call back love to restore love in our language. And it starts with us. Because you cannot give what you don't have. You cannot practice hate and you preach love. So you have to practice love, kindness, those values of humanity that has worked out of us. Then that way you give that back. And we have the capacity to plant seeds of love or hate. So I think right now it's our duty as artists to replant, to really come out at the front and use art as a weapon of peace, as a weapon to restore values of humanity. As a risk, as a weapon to remind people that we are born human. And therefore we are human together. Besides being blue, green, pink, yellow, whatever it is, besides my beliefs, at the end of the day, we need to breathe together. Because it just heartbreak, it just heartbreaking to see that we work towards taking breath away from when we are born with this breath, people are born breathing. So there is a time that breath would go away, but we shouldn't be the ones to facilitate its termination. It's not our duty. That's why our theme this year is stop, breathe and live. We just, right now the word is in a stop word, to just look at those values so we can be able to breathe and live together. And there's no way out of this. We have to live together. This time of Corona, did something change, how did you experience it? Did something change for you in that time? For you as a person? It changed for me. It reminded me that what I'm doing now is a calling. It's a calling to bring hope to life, to bring peace and love. It's through art. Because I stopped traveling, my travels were all canceled, I stayed in one place. When I came to a standstill, then I asked myself, how come the theme of the festival is stop, breathe and live. Which theme we came up with last year in Apple, because we always come up with themes before. I'm like, maybe the art we do is spiritual, but we don't know. Maybe the art we do has a lot to do with purpose. So I was reminded that art is not an opportunity, it's not an option, it's not anything in my life as hope. Art is a calling, and this is my calling. Sometimes when people watch my productions, they say, did you just name yourself Hope? I'm like, no. I was born like this because I was born and raised as a refugee. And a lot of refugee people at that time had names like that, like Hope, Peace, Faith and stuff like that. Where were you born? Where did you live as a refugee? I was born in Uganda, and my parents fled the 1959 pre-genocide way back. So I not only do works around Hope, but I also try to encourage other artists, and that's what we do with our festival, to just call upon other artists to tailor humanity in their works of art. Yeah, no, it is in a very, very, very important point. The contribution art can make an event somehow is creating meaning in a country like Rwanda that went through unspeakable horrors. That is something we all need to listen to, have to listen to, and also the ways you've found now is a digital age we all live in for the people who are used to cell phones and, you know, to continue that work. How are you supported? Do you get, do you fund raise? Does the Rwanda gives you or Kigali the city? How do you make a living? How do you get support even now in Corona time? How does that work? It's very difficult, because I mean, the crisis has hit everything. It has hit even our, our projects had to stop. We had to freeze everything was frozen, of course. And we're just living from a few revenues we are trying to save. But as a company we're always doing like commissioned works. How to run the festival, we depend on just donations, like we launch, like a support link, people donate, but at the same time we approach like embassies, different communities to support, because with the festival itself, we go by the values of humanity, we go by the values of the Kigali Genocide Memorial because that's where it started at the amphitheater. So it is supposed to be, it's supposed to create a platform with art that is accessible by the poor and the rich, by the educated and non-educated. So we try to make every person, every human being regardless of your background to have access to art, because we believe art had also reached a point where it was not accessible by every person, it was becoming too hard to get. So in terms of support, we just, you know, that's how we just like write proposals, share with people and whoever supports supports, and yeah, it's just like that, because right now there's no like specific fund that is just supporting us. In the city government, there's nothing, an international organization that, it's like donations from people who come to see your work or who see your work online. Yeah, or who just got our link and support and we have my friends are supportive, they go to the link and make some contributions and we are able to pay all the technicians helping us run this, we're making the videos, editing, the marketing team. Yeah, it's through that actually. How big is your team? We are not very many, we are like about, we are going up to around eight people, me curating and content manager, but when we go towards the festival, we bring companies on board to help us with the live streaming. So it grows towards the event, but before it's your like two people behind the scenes on the computers. Then slowly we bring a company to support with the digital marketing websites, you know, like in and out technicians. That is just just incredible that you are the way in the same way dealing with the same problems that companies around the world now. And, but you have found answers, all your practice already is doing what many companies that is covering now to reach everybody as you the rich and the poor, the educated and the uneducated to go to places to be inspired by the, by the by the space, the site about the location and that you create stories that were brought to you or you put them into a form you have audience feedbacks you use all digital platforms to promote your workers and incredibly contemporary forms you you you you you found that you are outside that you don't expect people to come into the black box but you you go towards them and and then also the contribution you made was the first and then the second big national healing ceremonies rituals that also worked. It is just astonishing and you really have our highest respect also as a woman to put this together and it seemed to be so often women who do such work, as you do and, and often they are overlocked and they don't get to do the work that they would do so much better so it's a truly a great testimony to to to Africa and we all Africa we all come from Africa. So this is really inspiring and significant and important and a great reminder also what works and that art should be also on the healing side on the spiritual side. So really thank you for for sharing all of this would What advice do you give let's say they are like theater makers who listen to you in Chicago and Atlanta in or in other places in Indonesia or Hong Kong people having Brazil was just going through very difficult times now. What advice do you have how to use this time of corona and what advice do you have for them as artists what should they be focusing on in their art. We are connecting connecting and building networks because that is where one about this that's our biggest capital networks, how do we merge because how do we stretch hands now that we are going digital and we're online. I think this is the time I mean like you reached out to me and we are we are already working together your your this program is being aired on our Facebook live so we need to somehow merge our platforms and support each other and if you have things out there let we can live stream them on our platforms. We just need to support each other with things that we have yet I can do a performance when I'm physically in Rwanda but I could do it in Indonesia so we need to merge our efforts and our energies and support each other but also make our work and our spaces like an open church or like an open our doors to our worlds and get out of our comfort zones because that's one thing I've really loved seeing a lot these days. We were not we were we were in our own caves, but we this time we need to come out so there's a lot of beautiful content you can find out online, and we're all different. I love poetry so I joined like all poetry groups and Facebook just to join every network that speaks to me just to make sure I can communicate what I'm doing. And yeah we need to merge and we need to know that this art we are given is also a gift we need to share these gifts and to share knowledge, because right now it's like okay when I put my play there how do I make money out of it we need to like, you know how do we survive together. If you have if hope is trying to do a festival and shares like a registration line and people want to know about what hope does share the link let's share all we need is just sharing what we're doing and somehow somehow all this will fall in one place and we never finding comes out and maybe we can create a big space together whereby we can now have people to start to subscribe or you know we just online by paying for our works, but before we pay. As we look for how people to buy our works, we are going to get our drums out on this busy street called online it's so busy that you have to, and if you're not careful you can drown like down in an ocean you have to like keep being on your feet and be alive and just be involved. But at the same time, search for what that means in your life, because for me at the end of the day it's does this piece have any meaning in your life, what does it say to you once it has meaning in your life, it will have meaning on other lives. Thank you this is very, very beautiful to say let's get out of our caves and I mean that's is where Plato's famous story about that we mankind started or art started we're sitting in the caves there's the fire and we see shadows at the wall we don't see us ourselves, but we see reflections and we try to interpret it. But it is time perhaps also for mankind we get out of the caves of our minds. You say we do a sharing and we listen to each other and and get the drums out, you know that drum loud and and participate. So really hope thank you there was a really significant advice you give and there's a lots to learn from we have to take that very serious. What do you say so really thank you for sharing what is your website, what is the name of the website. For the web for the, the festival right now which is happening in July, it's happening from the 17th to the 19th, and it's called www.ubumunu.com. And we have the also the Masherika one which is the company I work for. And right now we need attention on this festival created for the sake of humanity so people can come register and be part of this beautiful space of global artists sharing their works around and don't breathe in July and we have incredible we have incredible performers so we hope people can be able to join. Yeah. So your festival is also designed for a global audience, not just from under, we will put the links on our site maybe also how around can do it if not try to Google hope as a Randa festival you will come. We will be sure to the sides, and, and to see what our colleagues in Africa doing and what we can learn from them they are ahead of us it seems and many, in many things and things we have to learn or re, relearn so thank you for for joining us. Tomorrow we have someone Amini, a refugee also from, from Iran, a Persian who ended up in the Netherlands as a young boy somehow ended up in acting school and creates theater work that people are listening to and think it's meaningful so we hear from him how is it for an artist to be there in the Netherlands and also the time of corona. Next week we have more or less the program set we have Muriel Miguel and Gloria Miguel from the spider women's theater is a native American theater company in New York for for many, many decades they are working and trying to create work that is meaningful respect their their their indigenous heritage and connect also to modern life. Tuesday we have Danieli Francis from the Caribbean from Martinique, who will tell us about Martinique and her work, the great Virginia Barbara Italian theater maker living in Denmark the Odin's theater everybody who studies the history of theater knows about his work he's a legend and the significant theater artist and thinker and philosopher of theater. We will have a Levi from from Syria, maybe Nigel Smith will join next week or the week after or Patricia are easy or we will have other artists so stay tuned for for the seagull talk so we take you on a journey around the world. And it is really significant to hear that your story was very important to hear also for us and your message how to deal with art conflict and change and again congratulation thanks to howl round for hosting us. Vijay and see and Travis and single teams and young and Andy, and it's important to have our artists speak but it's important for you listeners to to be there to to listen to this sort of give importance to what they have to say and find a way perhaps how that what they say creates and also for you all might change your life this is what we heard yesterday from Tanya buggera very important talk also from Cuba from her experience was also moving from conceptual visual arts to theater she will do a bright piece and she's claimed why, and she said we all have to engage in art, because it might change ourselves and our lives and therefore the world. Thank you very very much and to our audience really. Thank you for listening and being with us stay safe and stay tuned and hope all the best, and really on graduation on your work all my respect, and, and stay safe and keep in contact. Bye bye. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.