 Hello and welcome to this event brought to you by the British Library in London. Whatever country or city or time zone you are joining us from we are delighted to have the technology to connect with you. Although given the pictures coming back from Mars this week this may seem like pretty basic stuff. My name is John Fawcett I am fortunate to look after the public events program here at the British Library. For a long time we have hoped to bring tonight's speaker Andrew Young to our stage. We are delighted and honoured this is finally possible albeit virtually and is one of our greatest ever science communicators. A writer, a producer, a director celebrated for her work on the Cosmos series and its sequels, the movie Contact and of course Creative Director of the Golden Record project. It was beyond our wildest dreams that Anne might be joined in conversation at this event by yet another generational authority behind our understanding of the universe Professor Brian Cox. Professor Cox is I am sure known to pretty much all of you for his incomparable TV series Wonders of the Solar System, Forces of Nature and the Planets which as with Cosmos have helped make the sometimes barely conceivable nature of things just that bit more intelligible. Among much else he is Professor of Particle Physics at Manchester University and the Royal Society Professor of Public Engagement in Science. It is especially appropriate that we host this session of the time when the Mars landings are renewing our interest in our place in the universe. The Voyager space probes have done this ever since their launch in 1977 and as they continue their journey to the far distant future each carrying a golden record, a selection of sounds and images representing human civilization and for any possible life-forming to discover. At the time Carl Sagan who was of course became Anne's husband and continuing collaborator said it was a kind of Noah's Ark of human culture. My organization the British Library is something of the same and although very much earthbound and with particular relevance to tonight the library is the home for the National Sound Archive of the United Kingdom some six million recordings so if any extraterrestrial is inspired by its founding golden record we will be very happy to be their next protocol. Before I hand over to our speakers may I invite you to post questions to them in the field below the screening window and you may also obtain their books by following the tab at the top of the screen or indeed make a donation to support the work of the British Library. Thank you. Thank you John and welcome to everybody. It's a great pleasure for me to talk to Anne. She has, well you heard an introduction, she needs no introduction really but I just like to say that she's been a tremendous influence on me and I don't think I would be making television programs and certainly not making them in the way that I made them without cosmos and so it's an honor to talk to you Anne as always. I wanted to ask you actually to begin how you got into science communication. We heard that list which is incomparable but I know that you didn't start out in science. Well first of all Brian it's wonderful to be with you again. I love our conversations over the years and I would be very missed if I didn't salute you. One of the things that struck me so much when I first saw cosmos was that it's not a standard run-of-the-mill science documentary. It's not just about the science. It is a polemic. It is a celebration of our place in the cosmos but I always think of the 13th episode particularly which it stays with me to this day which is that warning that you gave at the time against the possibility we might destroy ourselves in that case particularly focused on nuclear war and so that how important was that polemical element to you in writing cosmos? Very important to me because what is any philosophy that's not rooted in nature? What meaning can it have if it's not rooted in the whole fabric of existence? But I really felt that if we were going to do a 13-party series on the history of science then if it wasn't relevant to the state of our own planet and by the way in the fourth episode of the first season mostly written in 1978 and 79 we actually touched upon climate change in the episode about Venus called heaven and hell and about how a runaway Venus greenhouse effect on Venus had possibly taken a very clement planet and turned it into a kind of a hell and we were in the process of doing the same thing to our own planet and you know I was so wonderful was that Carl was so open to the idea of making this work on all the different levels you know not just as a jumble of amazing facts about far away worlds but also the relevance it had for this one and our third co-writer Stephen Soder and stronger were shared those same that same perspective and so it was a you know a tremendously harmonious period of writing the show for those two years that we were working on the writing because we wanted it to be really comprehensive not just you know something that was kind of snooty and you know goosebumps raising about the size and the age of the universe but also about the fact that we have on this planet a continuity of life that now we believe is four billion years old and we were this at this moment we were the link in that chain of life and it was up to us to really once we had understood what our true circumstances were to act accordingly do you think that uh cosmos and the subsequent series actually have um have done their job in a way I mean I know in the even haunted world um you write and Carl writes about the uh the need for inner democracy for people to at least have a basic grounding in science and also really more importantly the way that science forces you to think or the the scientific way of thinking do you think we've made progress since the 70s forwards or indeed backwards I think in some ways we have and in some ways we have declined I think there you know the fact that we are communicating with each other and with so many people around the world at this moment at the speed of light is a power that we can use to awaken as many people as possible to our responsibilities what we have to do how we have to change how we have to how we have to awaken from our sleepwalking and begin to to protect the ancient continuity of life I think more people recognize that today than ever before you know in the United States where I live just coming out of a period of several years of real warfare against science contempt for science and a kind of uh flight from reality generally I it seems to me that there's a something of a correlation I don't know scientifically but it just feels that way between that rejection of scientific thinking and a kind of reactionary political behavior and so if you don't if you don't believe in magical thinking and that if you just wish for something it will happen if you really believe in in the importance of the methodology of science these simple rules of just getting a little bit of reality not absolute truth but just a slightly clearer picture of what's going on here then then you feel and I feel more keenly than ever before than back in the early 90s demon haunted world and back in even the late 70s for cosmos I feel it even more strongly than ever before that if we start thinking in the time scales of science as opposed to the time scales of any of the economic ideologies on earth that that's really that's the imperative that we have to begin thinking in those time scales yeah speaking of perspective um before cosmos uh you worked with Carl and Voyager famously and the uh the record the famous golden record and I I'd love to talk a bit about that because it's um I think the thing I one of the things I love about it is in some sense it's a it's a gesture isn't it it's a it's a gesture of hope it's like the spacecraft is going off ultimately into interstellar space where we're still in contact with it which I can't believe both of them both of them yeah you know in going in different directions so I mean it's really astonishing really I mean their little tape recorders are still working out it's a remarkable piece of technology isn't it for at least mid 70s technology yeah it's meant to work for a dozen years max working flawlessly 43 years later it's magnificent it's it's remarkable but I think I wanted to ask you how you convince NASA to get you know give you some weight some payload all these things are very valuable on these spacecraft to put this golden record and the instructions to build a record player and all the things you need to do I wouldn't have been able to convince NASA of anything I mean I would probably be the last person they would listen to at that time but luckily they turned the great John Cassani of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory turned to Carl Sagan to ask him if he'd be willing to do another message he and Frank Drake and Linda Salzman Sagan had collaborated on the pioneer plaque which was you know the first of these messages it was a little bit like a license plate and that was very simple just some scientific hieroglyphics and the two human figures one male one female frontally facing the universe but here was an opportunity to to put much more information in the message and Carl turned to Frank Drake and the two of them I don't know which one realized that at the time a photograph record was the most efficient way to compress the greatest amount of data into a single space and so they decided to make a photograph record and it was really them who couldn't who persuaded NASA to do that NASA wanted to because they'd gotten so much attention from the pioneer plaque that they kind of knew that this would be a way to sell an unmanned mission which was going to reconnoiter the outer solar system for the very first time in human history and then have this a remarkable later mission to leave the solar system and to fly through the Milky Way galaxy at 38,000 miles per hour for for those for 5,000 million years and so what an opportunity it was irresistible and that's how it became a photograph record and and you were tasked with deciding what to send out on that voyage right I mean we're speaking now you know with the British Library I mean that obviously the library of our civilization is vast how did you go about saying what what is it that I want to say to the Milky Way or the civilizations that might be out there well first of all I was working ahead about half a dozen colleagues who were involved and you know there was no such thing as world music back then in the you know in 1977 you know the world was listening to British and American popular music and very little else you know every once in a while a song from another culture would be kind of novelty that would be briefly popular and then never heard from again so our perspective that all of us wanted this music to represent not just the dominant power of the moment that had actually set the spacecraft but the entire species is a source of great pride to me because if you look at the Voyager record today and you look at the images and the music there's very little to cringe at we were determined to represent all ages all cultures all of the possible aspects of experience as many as we could on the record and so that was our major thought was how do we do this so that we're not just you know representing dominant traditions or dominant points of view but instead something that really comes from from the children of planet earth all of us and that remarkable message as well isn't there from the children of planet earth which is beautiful one actually from from Nick Sagan who was seven years old at the time hello from the children of planet earth you know which always gets my heart because of its its purity its innocence it's it's warmth and and then when we're able to send other things greetings in some 59 languages human languages and one non-human language the greetings of the humpback whales the greetings of various crickets and other creatures as well as as well as you know a mother's first words to her newborn baby a kiss um and famously my brain waves my heart sounds during the fateful and magnificent week that Carl and I realized we were in love with each other so there's a soaring hour long meditation on the beauty of life on the history of life in this planet and to the best of my limited abilities but also a great soaring beauty of love and the idea that that will be recorded has been recorded and will last as close to forever as we ever get to touch is never ceases to fill me with awe and joy you know listening to you speak actually it strikes me that it's in many ways a message to ourselves isn't it as well as a message out into the cosmos it is absolutely brian you're so right and that's what we were thinking at the time we always thought of two audiences these putative extraterrestrials that we dream of and also what we would say to everyone on earth um and you know that was the point and the fact that i think the forager record is is in some ways more beloved now than ever before but i think it's amazing how many people have tattoos on their bodies of the scientific hieroglyphics on the record cover it really thrills me speaking of the children of planet earth actually we've just got a great question from Emily, Emily Flowers Jones who's nine years old oh great hi Emily asks um if we were to create new golden discs then attach them to interstellar probes in what direction should we send them to give us the best chance of a response what a great question Emily and that it's a question i have never been asked before in all the 43 years that i've been answering questions about this project so i i'm very impressed you know i would send them in every single conceivable direction because in the cosmos there is no up or down no right or left and so i would send them in all directions and of course we are we used to be to a greater degree when broadcast television was more common around the earth than it is at this moment and so we are sending messages consciously and unconsciously but um you know we've explored such a tiny teeny part of the cosmos i would be thrilled if we could send them in all directions do you think actually um the choice of music is dominated by music i know there are images on as you said and your brainwaves things but a large amount of music um i know you've thought a lot about um how to communicate with other civilizations what they might be like how a civilization would have to behave if they're going to persist and become an interstellar interplanetary or interstellar civilization do you think music will be universal i have no idea you know because i i i feel a certain humility in imagining what is possible in the universe um the little i know about the universe astounds me and uh it makes me feel very hump so i don't know if music is universal i do think that you know sound waves are identifiable and it's possible and this was part of our scientific faith really in creating the record and in sending instructions for play and uh uh you know a needle and all of the things that the extraterrestrials would actually need in order to to listen to the record but i've often thought maybe they just pick up the waves visually or in some other medium and maybe they can admire them maybe they have some aesthetically pleasing aspect to them besides simply their sound and so um you know i just realized i i just believe that they are they're probably beyond my ability to to imagine the fullness thereof of the universe in all the possibilities yeah you mentioned um frank drake earlier and um because they're frank and carl and that idea that we would like to search the universe for others we'd like to know i'm thinking of the the arecibo message all the way to the stars these great acts of optimism and then i i suppose for me um those are crystallized in in contact which you also and co-wrote that that idea that we there are people who want to know um could you speak a bit about about contacts and the the philosophy behind it and perhaps the character of elia our way and and i'd love to brian i'd love to um so when we we began writing contact in 1979 after we finished writing cosmos and at that time it was very fashionable to say well if women are smartest men where are the female leonardos where are they and i took this very personally actually and carl and i decided that we wanted to create an adventure a story where a woman is the kind of intellectual hero of the piece and she goes on this great journey and the men stay home that was the original impulse you know people it was very unusual to depict a scientist as being female at the time now of course it's not at all and in some tiny way i think that contact may have inspired a tremendous number of women to to pursue the sciences also we were disappointed in the depiction of extraterrestrials you know to us they were beautiful until proven ugly and we also felt that so much of the depiction of extraterrestrials is transparently a projection of our own fears and our own self-hatred and our own guilt for the way we treat each other and the way we treat other living things we're afraid that the extraterrestrials with their greater capacities will treat us the way we treat those whom we have power over and so we wanted to you know to give also some inkling of the possibility of making contact but again that that being only the tip of the iceberg that only being that first baby step not necessarily to understand all the secrets of the universe maybe those extraterrestrials to whom we make contact would be in some intermediate position where there would be questions that they had they had fit yet to answer which is seems to me a much more realistic proposition than otherwise and so that was the inspiration for it and god it was a joy to write with Carl we wrote a 110 page outline in 1979 and and it became Carl's novel in 1985 and then ultimately in 97 actually a motion picture at a long and winding road but the dream was was to engage people in the romance of discovery the romance of science and actually have the drama not come from the silly troubles of human beings but be generated by a kind of scientific credibility and reality which would give it a very similitude lacking in too many science fiction works that was the idea yeah i just wanted to ask you a question actually from Alexander Perry which is sort of related to as you said what would they what would they be like we project our fears onto them and ourselves onto the extraterrestrials he asked Alexander asks do you have a response ready in case anyone replies to the golden record oh yeah i mean i would be like first of all very happy to meet you and second of all how did you survive your technological adolescence because we need that information urgently we i think we are in our technological adolescence and it's something i've read about in cosmos possible worlds in the book that accompanies this latest season of cosmos which is that you know i know when i was an adolescent i was a total mess and i don't think anyone looking at me at the time would have expected that my life would unfold as it has and i think that uh that's true of a lot of us you know adolescence is a stormy sometimes destructive very often careless and thoughtless time but for those of us lucky enough to make it to some level of maturity things change and that's that's i think that's where we are you know we have this kind of post agricultural stress syndrome of the last 10 or 12 000 years where you know we're learning to live in a completely different way than we lived for most of human and pre-human history and we haven't really quite ironed out all the problems about that so if i met an extraterrestrial i would be like tell us you know what is the key to to to surviving this tempestuous phase and to getting to a kind of stability so that we can look our children and our grandchildren in the eye yeah i think you answered it actually and even halted world to be honest i think you gave the answers to that question i wish i strongly recommend i should decide by the way i haven't have the book here i this was not planned to everybody that's watching sat with the book because i think it's a beautiful book so i just thought thank you so much it um i wanted to just go back to contact it's i found it a fascinating film a beautiful film for all the the reasons that you say it's it's a beautiful depiction of a scientist and how they they fall in love with the universe and and what that does but it's kind of interesting because it's also ambiguous i don't know whether you can give spoilers i don't know if you give spoilers to films that were 20 or 30 years old but but it is left ambiguous to a point that um whether or not the the encounter with aliens is just in her mind i know there's a bit of evidence that's why i'm sorry i don't know whether i should say the spoilers see people i haven't seen yet no the book is ambiguous there's oh there is ambiguity but that's you know i think when i look at for instance my favorite science fiction film is 2001 i mean i can look at it i've looked at it you know every few years for decades and i still marvel at how brilliant and how much more modern it seems than virtually all the movies made sense and i think one of it's part of its power is the ambiguity part of it and it's something it gives the mind something to chew on something to think about and you know like it's not i don't think it's it's not ambiguous in the sense of like it's like then i woke up you know in that way because there's enough there's enough information on both sides of the argument to make it really i think uh you know absorbing and involving but i think we had to be ambiguous about it because that's the humility of science is that we might be wrong you know we we don't know and i i think if if that humility could somehow be incorporated into our public life as it is in science you know that idea of let's let's give the best prize to the person who proves us wrong and let's not ever ever hurt anybody or kill them because we disagree with them you know these are the strengths the great strengths of science i've been studying the history of science my whole my entire adult life and i've yet to find a single instance where one scientist killed another over a disagreement about the nature of anything and what is that that's the kind of um it's humility but also it's uh you know there's that wonderful thing in the in the methodology of science saying you know let everybody do this experiment and let him keep doing it and when somebody else figures out gets other results let's hear about that because we want to know we don't want to be we don't want to be jolied along in our delusions we want to know what's really there yeah it puts me in mind of um Richard Feynman's essay the value of science which i think from 1955 in which he says that the most valuable thing about science is that it is a satisfactory philosophy of ignorance yes i love the phrase i love that too it's interesting to me that that Feynman and actually Oppenheimer as well was like similar things at the same time had come from the Manhattan Project and had both seen that the power that signs hands to politicians yes and both felt that they should in part at least become popularizers i mean Oppenheimer did a very famously the BBC re-selectures which we consider a tremendous disappointment by the way you can listen to you can listen to them because he didn't talk about the Manhattan Project he like he didn't do his greatest hits he talks about he talks about this how science can help us think yes yes and that's why my dream of public education from pre-k from nursery school would be the beginning of a kind of exposure to that way of thinking that way of figuring out how you know you're being lied to how you can tell what's real and what's probably not real things like that and that i think these are tools that we needed the earliest age for critical thinking to be good citizens in any society that aspires to be a democracy you need those tools and i wish that that was emphasized from day one absolutely i have a question from Elsie Fickling who is also nine years old oh great as asked uh do you think there are any other living things out there and perhaps in answering that you could you know there are questions that follow like in that case are they in a solar system are they on microbes civilization so well the answer to that one Elsie is as of now we don't know you know we think that it's a very vast huge large big universe beyond imagining and you know the possibilities seem very just as vast and you know there could be there could be life in our solar system because we haven't even begun that careful study of the planets and moons of our solar system let alone the study of the worlds of the let's say 200 billion stars in the milky way let alone the study of the billion other galaxies or more so we don't know we don't know Elsie you could be the one who could find that life if it exists on one of those other worlds that's the great joy is that we have so many questions and we have so few answers we're just beginning to find our way we're very young as a species um but the universe is very young too and it has a very much much longer future than the time that has passed the 13.8 billion years that have passed and so the possibilities are virtually infinite yeah it reminds me of it's elliara way's line isn't it it seems like an awful waste of space there's nobody yes actually you know that we didn't write that that's not in the book that was in the movie i think it was written by michael goldenberg one of the screenwriters and uh it's proven to be really to be uh a line with real legs you know people think about that and it does seem that way i think it's a good one it's a good line i wanted to um ask you about re rebooting or re-imagining cosmos and i think you know you did a great job on Neil deGrasse Tyson did a great job in um in presenting that series but was it it must have been daunting because cosmos is you know as i said for me the science documentary series i just think nobody so how did that come about and how did you feel about it well for years um you know even before carl's death and for many years afterwards so i wanted to do another cosmos because the original cosmos is still being shown and loved all over the world and i also felt there was a need for more of that particular which as you very generously said in the beginning is part of it's kind of an untenanted ecological niche you know because the way cosmos integrated not just um the scientific information and the historic information and the music and the imagery and the vfx but also the perspective the political perspective you could say um in terms of what we were doing to our own planet and so um i kept going to these various networks and they all said we want it great we'll take it um but they they didn't want to give me creative control and and they also didn't they want to spend enough money on it to get those cinematic vfx that really feel like you're being transported and that went on for several years until i was lucky enough to meet seth mcfarling and he was a huge cosmos fan is cosmos fan and and really was the champion of the project and took me to fox and uh and national geographic and i got to do season two and season three um exactly the way i wanted to and was tremendously positive experience and and you know wonderful collaborators actors brandon braga who was uh my co-writer and fellow director on the series and in about and 985 other people we counted them up worked on the series from all around the world so i yeah i knew i mean nobody on earth knows better than i how big carl sagan's shoes are to fill i mean i stand behind not a single person in terms of my regard respect love adoration for carl but i think he would have wanted me to continue this work and to do what i could to attract new people to new generations to to science and its values and its story its great story i i just have to interject that i got my first dose of uh vaccine uh covid vaccine on february first and and afterwards i found myself sitting down and thinking about the generations of searchers the how many generations of people with implacable curiosity and willing not for money not for anything but the joy of understanding the cause and the reality and it was because of them all of them up to today that we could conceivably vanquish an invisible killer that has brought our civilization to its knees you know that is what science the power of science to go from complete lack of understanding of what a virus is and not even adding knowledge of it its existence in a couple of hundred years to the point where we could design a foe for this ancient virus to be able to to actually protect ourselves to hope to protect ourselves that science go to mars that size you can't lie your way to mars you know if anybody in that in the perseverance mission in all the years it took to plan and to execute if they had fought the data the information of course they were done disease to protect but still mission can go horribly awry but the precision it takes to send the voyagers out beyond the reach of the solar wind and to communicate with them flawlessly for 43 years that is a kind of precision of truthfulness and accuracy that makes me feel we can get out of the nightmare that we created for ourselves we're smart enough are we healthy and strong enough to have the real resolve to do it yeah I have a question from Lynn Marie which is kind of kind of related to that is she asks about what is the reality of us humans living on another planet and what benefits do you think we might get from exploring other worlds and living on them because it's quite it can be controversial spaceflight can't it you know there are people who um objects even to spending money on that right humble space telescopes certainly human spaceflight people object and so so what what do you think that the benefits aren't you've outlined some it's obviously a ridiculous question doesn't it because obviously voyager and the pale blue dots are this tremendous cultural benefits present specifically Mars which is in the news now um well you know we shall see I mean the point is that you know think of Michael Faraday working at the Royal Institution on in that apartment on the roof and doing his experiments with bits of cork and and the most basic things not knowing the math even only understanding it in in language really in in in in in verbal language as opposed to the mathematics and the fact that what we're doing right now and our ability to communicate with each other at instantaneously at this moment is an outgrowth of both Faraday and James Clark Maxwell's equations they didn't know what they were creating just as we don't know what the end product of exploring Mars is I have a slightly controversial view about actual actually sending humans to Mars and that is that um I don't think we should be allowed to go to other worlds as as settlers until we get our act together here I feel very strongly about that I think we can send our robots to explore I think we should I think we should do as much exploration as possible but as as settlers as colonists no no I think we shouldn't be allowed out yet and we think we have to grow up quite a bit before we should be allowed to settle other worlds but to explore them absolutely the byproducts are unforeseeable it's you know it's we never know what we're going to find that's the that's what makes it so great is that it's it's both in fact that the best thing about it maybe the worst thing about we have no idea and we can think in terms of mining and exploiting and all that stuff but there are other byproducts that may be even more significant that we don't know that are unforeseeable it's really interesting that um if you watch uh Elon Musk for example then he seems to be in a rush and he's in a rush he's quite explicit about it because he thinks all our eggs ring one basket and and and he asked a question I saw him the other day actually I think it was on Joe Rogan uh pose a question which I thought was very powerful which is uh how many civilizations do you think were out there that never escaped their home world never left let's say left never left their home world so he feels that imperative I think that we need to spread to survive which obviously is ultimately true but he feels we have to do it in the next few decades well no I think we have to clean up our our nest in the next few decades because there's no real practical plan for us to migrate in great enough numbers to other worlds in the next few decades and that coincides with what many scientists believe is as much time as we have before some of the more the greater consequences of climate change will become not so easy to reverse and so um I don't see it that way actually I also think that you know it's like saying you know I mean yes perhaps there are civilizations out there that never left their home worlds and perished and uh the dinosaurs for instance you know if you're not talking about the birds but I'm just saying the dinosaurs yes and some of them probably were it was better that they stay at home you know I'm not I'm not sure that it's always in the best interest of the universe or even or anyone uh to go wandering I think um I'm not in a big hurry about that I'm in a big hurry to see us take care of this planet whose lives he touched ending all the people who who all the interest in science that he ignited excuse me and I just think how wondrous it is of a mother taking her small son by the hand and launching him on that great voyage yeah it's a small tiny things that change the world is it really they really do we're honest out of time but Catherine in york has asked a great question she first says thank you for a brilliant evening but she said what do you think what do you think can be the role of scientists in getting in returning trust in science um to politicians and also to the wider population so I suppose I mean just to add some context I know that Carl wrote a lot about the fact that it was tremendously frowned upon wasn't it he was I think he was never admitted to the national academy of sciences is that right he was blackbought from the national academy of sciences yes and you know I think about this all the time I you know what can scientists do they can cheer on the brian coxies of the world and love them that much more for being a bridge to the wider public they can take it upon themselves to do as Carl did to go to kindergarten and uh the early grades and teach in these classrooms and get these little children turn them into little whirling solar systems to give them a visceral exciting thrilling personal sense of what what we are part of that's what scientists have to do I really feel that you know the values of science to me are so exemplary I'm not saying as you probably know and I'm sure the audience knows it's not that all scientists ever live up to these values but to the extent that people are true to these values there is a hope for us for our future because it's about reason and it's about not what you want to believe and not what you're afraid to see but and not again not an absolute truth ever maybe just sometimes just a little tiny um piece of of truth it's the most precious thing we have as Einstein said and it belongs to every single one of us it's a birthright and in the 21st century we have to make sure that all of our children not only have enough to eat and shelter and potable water but an exposure to this birthright which will only empower them to to recognize the exquisite preciousness of the continuity of life on this little tiny world now and we've we've run out of time and I cannot imagine finishing on a more inspirational note than that that's I mean I just you know I kind of just say that it's such a pleasure because every when you speak I hear all those things in cosmos from older years ago that that you know convinced me that I wanted to do science and convinced me that I wanted to talk about science in public and the the way you speak is just that you know it's the way that I think about the world from that series so thank you thank you I know I'm thanking you Brian this every time we ever get to talk it's a joy absolutely absolutely I the feeling is absolutely mutual thank you everybody I hope you've enjoyed this I'm sorry we've run out of time and I could talk for another hour but it just falls to me to thank and again thank you so much thank you