 Let's get going, and this is the last session, the round table, and Peter, wherever Peter disappeared to, yes, sort of asked our distinguished guests here to consider the question, and I quote him here, in the 19th century, many Indian social and religious reformers differentiated custom and rituals from true religion. Is this distinction still relevant for lived Jainism today? Is the question that he asked, and this is a question that is on the one hand has the historical importance of a set of issues and topics and things that certainly in the 19th and 20th centuries, as Jains dealt with all of the changes that we think of as modernity, urbanization, economic change, communication change, things like that, totally new settings, and Jains tried to adapt to that in different parts of India and outside of India, and the whole concept of true religion started to emerge in the 19th century also. I would say it's also a question that is relevant for lived Jainism today, as Jains move around and migrate and live in totally different circumstances in India, but also increasingly with more than a lack of Jains living outside of India, the diasporic Jains also are considering these questions, and in some ways it could be said, what is Jainism, what is the Jain dharma, what is Adhikar within the tradition, what are sort of authoritative sources you go to figure out how to respond to the present. These are the kinds of questions that emerge out of this, and so we have an illustrious panel up here, and I'm going to introduce everyone very quickly, and just raise your hand so that the audience can know, and I'll start with- John, sorry John, can I ask a quick question? This 19th century, I hope it's not got anything to do with British colonization. No, it's the fact that the 19th century was a time of global change and reform, and I mean, the 19th century was obviously a time of rising colonialism in India, but it's also regardless of the situation, everybody in the world was dealing with these changes and the idea of true religion, and how do we sort of identify true religion vis-a-vis traditional custom, traditional rituals, the rise of textual authority, these kinds of issues transcended colonialism. Yeah, because I'm asking because- Atul, can I ask you to actually keep that and transform that into your opening comment? And in your opening comment, you can therefore deconstruct the question- I will do that. Okay, but in the meantime, I would like to introduce people. First from Department of Physics Indian Institute of Technology, Rurki, we have Ashok Jain, oh, you're not even on stage here, okay, okay, Department of Botany, Gwalior University, also Ashok Jain, okay, no relation. And you all now know Atul Shah from University Campus Suffolk, raise your hand, Atul, yes, Bhattarajji Charukirti, Jain Matmud Bidri, who's been a wonderful participant here. From University of Southampton, we have Bindi Shah, Chakresh Jain from the JP Institute of Information Technology, New Delhi, yeah, okay, all the way down to the end, in the shadows, unfortunately. From SOAS and Jain Vishwabharati Ladnum, we have so many Pratibha Pragya, thank you, we've all heard already, Sanjeev Sogati from Gyan Sagar Science Foundation, and Shyamlal Godavat from Gyan Sagar, and who, have I missed somebody? So what I'm going to ask is, okay, I'm sorry, I didn't get your, okay, what I'm going to do is ask each of the people to respond to this question in literally about two minutes, because that will then take us to about half past, and that will then leave time for about 20, 25 minutes of Q and A, there will be microphones, and we have two people carrying the microphones, so we can have it as more of a round table conversation. So just to be completely arbitrary, why don't we start here with Shyamlal? Answer to this question, should I start? Okay, you should start. Thank you. Actually, this is very important questions that whether such reforms, they are really relevant or, and they have differentiated customs and rituals from the true religion. Change is the law of nature, we can't change, as we progress, certainly changes take place. So happened with case of religion also. So happened with our religious practices, our rituals also. So to this question, I again raised some questions. Can we go back? Can we go back to our original customs or rituals which we were practicing? And second question is, can we promote people to follow totally the path of salvation? Because in Jainism, earlier there was no, there was no way, there was no question of any kind of tantricism. Tantricism was developed later on, but originally the main principle of Jain was to purify your soul. Then can we take people back to that path? No. So many people adopted and they practiced, they started practicing various types of tantric practice, tantricism. And certainly it happens, when they worship any gods and goddesses, then certainly like Yakchi, Yakchani or like several other deities are there, so they started worshipping them also. And many other things they also entered in this tantric practices. For example, in Dighambar tradition, when we perform any kind of puja, when we perform any kind of Bidhan, a big form of puja which comprises several pujans worship, in that case there was no place for inviting God or for requesting them to stay or when we complete the puja or Bidhan, then we never bid any welfare. Such type of thing was not there. But it entered later, it was introduced later, because according to Jain principle, our God, he is in Siddhisthala, he is the super soul. They never come back on this earth. Then why we call them, why we request them to stay, then pujan and then bisarjan, we do like that. So there are several such examples, but we can't check it. We have to live with them. Another thing is such practices, in my opinion, they have not harmed in any way. People who practice such type of tantricism, they do it. People who do not practice such type of tantricism, they do not do it. They do not believe in such type of practices. So my submission is that people know very well about the introduction of tantricism and about its influence on main principles of Jainism. So whatever people are doing, let them do, and it is not going to affect any way in any principle of Jainism. Thank you very much. I would like to add something. What is told by Dr. Ashok Jain? That is the Jainism is entirely based on the philosophy. It is based on the spirituality. It is based on the Salvation. But however, in the ancient time, there was completely belief on the spirituality. Later on, the time passes, the people complete their desires, needs, and to solve their problems. They took the help of the mantras. Later on, again, the time passes that comes through the mantra yuga. Earlier there was the spirituality yuga. Then there was the mantra yuga, mantra era. Later on, the time has passed on. Then they took the addition of the tantra yuga and then the yantra yuga later on. So the present era is the yantra yuga in which the mantra, tantra and the yantra, all the three are involved. So in the present circumstances, people want peace, people want calm, cool, happiness. So to achieve this thing, to achieve this goal, the people take the help of this mantra, yantra and the tantra. So for obtaining the peace, these mantras, tantra and yantra are operative in the present circumstances. So in this present circumstances, there is no harm because we all are the mundana soul. We are the chhadmasthaji and to complete our desires, we are taking the help and the people are taking the help of the mantra, tantra and the yantra. So for the spirituality and for the growth of the spirituality in the present circumstances, the people are taking the help of the mantra, tantra and the yantra. So in the jana, entirely based on the body and the soul, they are separate. So for the upliftment of the soul, the people are taking the help of the mantra, tantra and the yantra in the present circumstances. But in principle, the jana philosophy is entirely based on the spirituality and on the philosophy and the salvation. Thank you very much. Okay. Means totally in our aim is upliftment soul without any harm. So technique is so many is we will observe in since so many years. In France is everywhere and every moment how to we will live and let live, how to we survive. In that sense, so many regions, so many type of the challenges is coming in colonial era. And we know that we are living in five, six, seven type of languages and so many customs in our South Canada district, undivided district. There is Muslims. We are give the land to the built their mask you and there are so many Christians. We are give the land to make built to the church. And there are several Hindus called the Vedic and Shaiva. We are give the land to build their temple and we will rule. And also in their Dravidian culture, schedule caste and schedule tribe in that three, four, five sections. And there are also so many type of the technique tantra in so many type varieties of the tantric is there. But in that tantric control purpose, we are making some mantras. But it's absolutely non-violently, not violence. We're not encouraged in the Batarakas in Mudbidri and the surroundings, 15 Batarakas in Karnataka. The challenges is so many type. They will meet and they will kill the animals, put the Ajna, Yaga and all. When the our Batarakas came, they stopped the Ajna, Yaga, buffaloes and so many cows are in name of God, the killing. So that's why influence is singing, music and so many type of the dances and so many type of the miracles. That miracles is the actually poojas. Whenever the flower is down, then you don't kill the animal. The Devi is getting angry. So then they will stop the buffaloes killing. This is the evidence in the hundred years ago in the Mudbidri. And all the British leaders, Vice Royce, they are the protect our temple in that time. 1916, Clive rise and so many great contribution to the giants, especially our temple is preserved. But our Batarakas never give the Sistine temple, only give the tomb and one of the palace for one part, for the protection purpose. But he ask the heritage we don't destroy. That purpose Batarakas is telling commitment to the British. We never destroy our heritage. So that type of the kind, that type of the friendship, that type of the relations, I think build up our harmony and peace. That is five type peace. One is the Mansikasvastya is the mental based peace. Another one is the body peace or body health, mental health, body health and is the neighbor health. A neighbor is very friendly, no challenges, no enemies, no need any Tantra or technique. And fourth one is the Parivarikvastya is the family friendship. The wife and the husband, kids and the parents that relationship must very good build up. So it is the challenge for the spirituality and the religion. Religion, nothing but the teaching of morality or ethical. How we will wonderful greatness or goodness and salvation, we will learn from this earth. That is important, not in name of Jaina. It's a name of reality, path of purification. So that path of purification, our batarkas or kundakundacharyasam are written about non-violence and truth. No name in Jaina. They are telling you will follow the truth, you follow the non-violence, you follow the celibacy, you follow the non-attachment like that. So this kind of challenges are very easily they will understand and give the influences in there. And another one is the Manasikasvastya, Sharirikasvastya, Parivarikasvastya and Samajikasvastya in the neighboring nations and the other peoples. How we will live? We are the human being. The whole world is our house. We are the family member. This is the Lord Mahavira's live and let live. All the living being is the soul. Even He is also great victor and all the you people becoming one day great God. That is the Jainism's main motto and essence. So everybody you respect, even all the living being and the plants and the creature, everybody. Om Shanti. Okay. Are you going last? Okay. Thank you. So I want to just state, well, thank Peter for inviting me to join this roundtable. But I also just want to say make my academic training very clear. I'm not a Jainist studies scholar. I'm a sociologist and my research interests are related to questions of identity, community, belonging and citizenship among the children of Asian immigrants in both the UK and the USA. So given that over the last few years I've been doing research on young Jains in the two countries aged 18 to 30 years of age. And sociologically I call them second generation Jains because they're either born of Jain immigrant parents who came to the UK, the USA in the 60s, 70s and 80s, or they arrived with their parents at a very young age. And in this research I've been interested in questions of how are young Jains interpreting Jain Dharma? How are they practicing it? What meaning does this practice have in their lives? How are they transforming and translating Jain Dharma in new settings? And finally, what kind of communities and community organizations are they building in new settings? Now, I don't have too much time to go into the details of my findings, but I just want to briefly preface my position on this question for the round table by saying that in my findings the majority of my participants, and I interviewed 30 young Jains in the UK and 30 in the USA, the majority are not interested in any kind of overt ritual practice on a regular basis. Very, very few of them practiced Samayic or any kind of austerities. None of my participants in Britain went to the temples and we have several temples around the country on a regular basis. In the US the young people did go to the temples on a fairly regular basis, on a fortnightly basis, but partly because in the US temples are also community centers and so they draw young people for other kinds of reasons. The one overt kind of ritual or festival that has come to have much significance for young people in the UK and the USA is Parishon or Das Lakshon. They take time out of their busy lives to observe this religious festival by observing restrictions, further restrictions on their diet, by performing fast, at least on the last day if not on other days, and by going to listen to lectures and things like that. So that's sort of a very brief sketch of my findings. What I want to argue is that it's relevant to maintain this distinction between customs and rituals and the true Dharma for three reasons. And I'll just, if you'll allow me to explain those three reasons. The first is that for many of my respondents practicing the Dharma in their daily lives provided a moral compass for them. It allowed them to become a good person. And particularly when young people are living in multicultural societies, in multi-faith societies, well, there are multiple value systems. Jain principles such as Ahimsa, Anekantva, Aparigra and so on, and the related codes of conduct help young Jains navigate these multiple value systems and often conflicting value systems. So just to give you one quick example in the United States, particularly my respondents said that there's violence in US society at multiple levels. And Jain principles and the codes of conduct that go with it help these young people make decisions about how to navigate these levels of violence that they encounter in order to try and be a good person. Second reason why I think the distinction is important to maintain is that young Jains in my study are living in a time and a place where there is a complexity of living, where social change is happening rapidly and intensely. And John mentioned some of that. And the number of choices that young people have to make is expanding enormously. There's a lot of risk and uncertainty in the lives of young people. And particularly for young Jains, this risk and uncertainty is related to decisions about jobs and careers. But also more frequently now it's related to health and chronic illness, particularly amongst their loved ones and nearest and dearest. So for many of my participants, understanding the true religion helped them deal with these uncertainties and risks in society in modern life. It helped them to control the negative emotions during difficult times. And I just wanted to give you one example of a young woman whom I interviewed. And she said to me that her understanding of karma theory helped her deal with the fact that she was not able to find a job in the financial industry in London, and this was a job that she was trained for. In describing how she dealt with the emotional ups and downs of not being able to find the job that she was trained for, she said, and I'll quote, I took away that attachment to what I really, really wanted. I opened it up a little bit more and then actually got a really good job, end of quote. This job was not in the financial sector, but what she found was that the job that she eventually got revealed to her her true calling. But what she said was that it allowed her to maintain equanimity in these emotionally difficult times. Finally, what I want to argue is that distinction is important because it allows young Jane women and men to develop a committed Jane practice, religious practice. So the majority of the young women in my study were going to universities that were very prestigious universities, or they were involved in occupations that were very demanding and competitive. They had little time to perform any kind of rituals. They had little time to deal with any kind of dietary restrictions or timings and so on. So focus on the true religion allows them to develop a committed Jane practice that revolves around living the Dharma in their daily lives. It revolves around being vegetarian or increasingly vegan now and also involves being involved in regular Jane study. Then the one point in the year when they do take time out of their busy schedules is during pollution or dust luxury. But I also want to say that this distinction between rituals and customs and true religion is important for young Jane men. It allows young Jane men to also develop a committed Jane practice that goes beyond just giving donations to the temple or goes beyond taking on positions within Jane organizations. Like Jane young women, it allowed young Jane men to also develop Dharma in their daily lives, to live the Dharma in their daily lives, to also make sure they're vegetarian or vegan and also to be involved in a regular study of Jane texts, Jane stories and Jane prayers. So for these reasons young Jane's were growing up in the so-called West. It's important to maintain this distinction so they can actually maintain a committed Jane practice. Thank you, John. I will take your lead and deconstruct the question. So the first thing I see is 19th century and I think of the history of the colonial history of India and the colonial tantra was divide and rule. Divide and rule. The Jane tradition as I understand it and the Jane Dharma, the Jane science has never had boundaries throughout its life and throughout its heritage. So the other thing I've highlighted here is this distinction still relevant for lived Jane-ism today. Well, I guess I could deconstruct the word Jane-ism because that also creates a kind of boundary. But lived Jane-ism is diverse. It has got all kinds of manifestations. This question seems to me to be akin to this idea of life. Is there a boundary between life and religion? Not so in the Jane tradition. Never has been, but Western science and the way Western religion often are constructed is as if there is a boundary. But we have never had one and I don't think that from that context also. And I guess the last real javelin I want to throw, John, is we are all members of the Jane community. And is the agenda behind this question to divide and rule us? Thank you. Thank you so much for this, Peter, having this round table conference and giving the opportunity of speaking here. The reason is what actually I cannot definitely define it in the sum of words. But what I can say is the true moral values or ethics which one can have with that. And I give a very simple example of that. You have a gold coin of weighing more than one kg of one million pound and it's being hammered by everything and then asked who will take it. Everyone say, yeah, whatever and if it deforms it has a value. And after that also it has been put into the mud, into the shed and is still asked who is going to take it. Everyone says, yeah, it has value of one million pound. So similarly people says if you have a values, if you have developed the ethics, moral values, people will hands you up to take you through the salvation path even. So some of Ajaya says that if you have developed ethics values, moral values through religion or by any ways of religion, maybe it deforms, maybe it changes with the time but it remains, the moral values and ethics remains the same. So it's like a value of gold, a coin. And furthermore Ajaya says that, you know, people after dying goes to heaven who has done the good karma but the main real person is that where he stand, where he sit, heaven comes there before he die. That's the type of spirituality if he has developed in him. Some of Ajayas are sitting there and if you go you will find so much positive energy. You feel that you are in heaven. So if that kind of spirituality or that kind of purity of soul is being developed by you then heaven will be like here only. So that's what I wanted to highlight that, you know. Some of these, like we are for the salvation path is true religion. One has to has got to salvation. That's true. But someone says that, you know, like a child if he's weeping then you give him a toy, give him a toy and say, okay, he's happy. Similarly, if we are on the salvation path we are child. Like, you know, we are very still on that path, it will remain child. So if some mantra and tantra has been given to you then it is like you're giving you the happiness or something like that. You know, the bell mantra I'll just read in Hindi but someone who can understand this is being basically for your wealth, your happiness keeping you away from the illness. So this is being practiced every day and this is basically for keeping you protected from outside world and giving you the path where you want to go. So with these words I'll say that if there is some deforms also, if it is for good it is being accepted with time. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. I have very small interpretation for my own understanding. As in the Jainism there is a state with the concept of Ainsa, Parmo, Dharma live and other allow to live. Religion which is purely saying about the internal realization and beauty at the internal side. External devices may be like, I mean as it is a topic also for today's Tantrism, Jainism, Yantrism. These all being basically the component which might be sometime giving you possibility to find. But in nutshell what I feel that Jainism is totally for the self-realizations. These external devices may be helpful up to a certain extent. And with this upcoming, this modern era, the necessity of these all things may be taken up in concept to without compromising with Jain philosophy. This is what I actually want to conclude myself. Thank you. Samadhi Ji, you want to sort of... Thank you, John. And I'm drawing upon Ole Kostom's growth and survival, very important article. Though he's talking about the 12th century. But taking on the 19th and 20th century, in Jainism we have two words, Moolgun and Uttargun. So Mool, the Mool is always static, not changing. But Uttar is constantly changing for the survival and growth. And that's why now the community concentrated on Rajasthan, on Gujarat, then beyond the boundaries. And now we can say more than 50 countries and there are Jains, a diaspora and lot more changes. So survival and growth. When I see the dark side of it, when I see that some of them adopted known ways in their eating, known ways and sometimes ladders and some sort of things in their daily life, then why this is? And then they say we have to sit in a community, we have to sit, we have peer pressure, we have different community and business and this and that. So there I think it is a big question for Jainism. But they say we do for the survival. But side by side there is a lot more changes and when I see people, a group of like Gyan Sagar Foundation and they are here with a different vision. They are looking for a new island of the knowledge and they have the idea, okay, we did enough Panchakalyanak, we did enough for puja, we did enough for temples and now they are looking for something new and this is also keeping the true religion in their mind but they are looking for the institutionalized Jainism. Here at Sovaas, they find that type of island and I think first Ashok Jain travelled and now and maybe in the coming years this collaboration will enhance and maybe the Sovaas Jain conference, maybe they can host sometime in India. They can do something more than that. So it is opening a window in their mind and they are keeping the true religion in their mind and for the survival and growth for the Jainism, thinking in a different way. So I think it is also the custom and ritual. They are one side of religion but knowledge and progressing knowledge and making research for the coming generation. So that is a different step for the generation, for the Jainism. So this is my thinking and what I got from Gurudev Tulsi and Gurudev Mahapragya as Peter did a lot more research, Jain modernization, Jain modernism. So that is also one factor of it, the survival and growth and reaching far away from the foot stepping of the true religion, keeping the foot on the true religion but progressing. So thank you. Mr. Jain, Mr. Peter and my friends, well as a physician I have come here but for the last 40 years I am trying to spread the Jainism and Jain thoughts all over the world and particularly propagating the vegetarianism. Today in this conference, well though it was on a tantra but I think this is a base where the Lund University, SOS and Jain community from India all should come together to guide the world. In fact, when I move all over the world I find today the main burning point is a global warming and the solution for a global warming is basically is Jain following the Jain principles because I see that Jain dharma, it is not a religion, it is a way of life. It is a way of life, it is not a religion at all and large number of people can come together and we can save this globe, save this globe. I do remember when I was in Dublin I saw in a tentative museum the Bernard Shaw's line when Bernard Shaw was saying that if want to have a rebirth I would like to have a rebirth in India and that too also in a Jain dharma. There is a lot of things in Bernard Shaw's saying. Similarly I feel that today Al Gore in all his book and CDs you must have seen The Inconvenient Truth or Rajendra Pachori, they are all spreading that how to save the globe from the warming and so many other non-violence their only thing is a platform, is a Jain way of life. I think to propagate vegetarianism, to propagate non-violence we should have one platform from your university, Peter G, Bhattarak G, all the Jain community from India, we should come together and take this message of Tirthankara and Mahavir to the world because that is going to give the light to the world and that is a change which we have seen in 19th century and 20th century. As a doctor I see today why the medical problems are growing, why 90% of the disease, 95% of the patients I get are all having suffering from psychosomatic disorder and there is for all the psychosomatic disorder, there is no answer at all unless we change our lifestyle and that is the reason why the Jain principles, Jain way of living we should try to propagate and put in front of the world so that we can do a lot for this community, lots for this world. I thank all of you and particularly I listen to the number of intellectual people and I'm going with the message but definitely I think this should be a new platform to grow and just suggested by Sramaniji why not to have a conference, similar conference where a large of the foreign delegates they come to India and we would love to host them and make this message to the global message. Thank you very much. Manipal is... Sauce, I think later people is read I think. Manipal Mahi University already we will done. Sauce and jointly... Sauce or what? Jaina International... Yeah, one course in summer course. Yeah, summer course is we will last 15 days before in Manipal. We will attend that one. Okay, and also I will tell to Sauce and Peter Flussel and Mr... John. John Scott. Most welcome. If you will arrange that the conference jointly do in Mudbidri I will support you, food and accommodation. And any other university people also, most welcome. This is your second house. Such kind offers here. Before we turn over the microphones to everybody, there was one person who was supposed to be up here on the stage, Ashok Chi. Would you like to have a word or... Yes, okay. And Ellen has got the microphone. No, no, just... Okay. Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity. I will remain focused on the question that you have posed. And it's a very relevant question. It had many dimensions. So I cannot touch all the dimensions. First of all, let me tell you that I'm not a so-called... I mean, in the usual sense an expert on Jainism. I'm a nuclear physicist. And if you ask me to give a lecture on nuclear fission, I can do that for several hours very easily. But I was brought up in a family which was kind of full of Jain religion. My father was a great scholar on Jainism. All the Jain scholars, all the Jain pundits, they used to come to my house. So starting from my childhood, I have seen every hue of Jain scholars, Jain pundits. And I have played with them in their labs. I used to ask them many kind of stupid questions. I have read hundreds of books that used to come to my house. So with that background, I grew up, but I never wanted to become a Jain scholar myself. I chose physics. And this is what is happening actually today also. There are several dimensions, as I said. One dimension is the Jain religion being practiced in India. Then the Jains who are abroad and their children. And then our own children who are growing up in India. My son is there. He never wants to go to the temple. Then what to do? The way Jainism is being practiced within India in the Jain community, the rituals, number of rituals are definitely increasing. Those rituals never existed when I was young. I never saw my father practicing so many rituals. Why they are increasing? I think the main reason is economical. People are getting prosperous. Then there are so many new generation of pundits coming up who don't have jobs. They promote these rituals. Yes, they promote these rituals because then they go and perform. See in Jain, one thing was there. In the Jain temples there are no priests. If you go to a Hindu temple, there will be a priest, a middleman, who will accept the donations, who will take everything on behalf of the God and say, oh, it will reach the God now. This is the reason Jains were simple people. The temples were very simple places. You go and do puja yourself. Whatever prayer you have to do, you go. Nobody is there between you and the God. So this principle is now being violated very seriously. And I am totally against this because now when you go to any Jain festivals or any such places, the kind of elaborate arrangements and expenses, they are just against this principle of non-violence and everything. They are simply against it. They violate every Jain ethic. The simplicity is lost. The main purpose is lost. You talk about salvation every day. Who wants salvation? Nobody wants to solve it actually. Where is the salvation? Show me. I don't see it. Now how do you show it to the young people? You have to do that in a very different way. They want logical answers. They don't want just some statements from some stories from scriptures. So when I tell my son to come with me to the temple, he says, why should I go? I am living a much better life than people who go there. So these are the questions that are being faced within the country. And then some of the questions were raised by the lady here who has done such a wonderful study and she posed many questions. However, do we need rituals? I think some rituals are definitely needed because they remain rooted in that way. Some of the rituals keep you rooted to the basic things. Even if you are not a great philosopher or a great learner or a great scholar, they keep people rooted to some of the basic things. They go there, they listen to somebody and so they learn few things. In that sense, rituals are almost necessary. But I don't know how this... I have read a lot about Tantra Mantra but I really don't know. I have not come across any evidence where they work properly. How do they work? How they are doing their job? So these questions come to the mind and they have to be answered in a rational way. So I think I have so many other things to say. Probably I won't take much time. But my view will be that you have to keep the rituals under control. They have to be kept to the minimum that are necessary. You have to interpret the basic tenets in a modern time in a new way so that young generation will be able to accept it. This is very necessary if you want this whole principle, this generalism to survive in the future. The whole survivor depends on that. So with these words, I thank you very much. I hope... Thank you. We have, after all of these wonderful presentations of various perspectives from different places within India, different social locations, things like that, that have raised enough questions that we could have an entire second day of a conference. But we don't have a second day. We have about five minutes. There are two hands that are very energetically being raised in the back. Thank you. So in light of the question differentiating between custom and rituals from true religion, I think one thing that sort of failed to be addressed is at what point does custom and ritual become true religion? I mean if you practice austerities, surely there's some austerities that could be classified as true religion. I mean I don't think that's been quite discussed. I was just wondering what the speaker's views are on the extent to which customs and rituals could become true religion and how you could differentiate between the two of them. So, any thoughts? Thank you. Aishu, why don't we have three questions and then we'll let the panelists respond as they want. So first of all, thanks to the speakers for taking time out of your busy schedule and sharing your thesis. And you covered a very interesting topic, you know, but it's a very specific topic. Jainism is much beyond it. So my question to the speakers today is if you take three things out of Jainism, what would you like to share? What are the three things that you want to share? So maybe it's nonviolence. Maybe it's an account with multiplicity of truth. But when you share, please share a little bit one line out of it so that people may not understand what an account is. So when you say, what are your three things that you really like about Jainism that everyone should take in this world? Okay, a third question and then we'll sort of... Hi. My name's Sagar. I just wanted to quickly refer to the doctors talking about vegetarianism and the lady that was talking about the research she's done on the students. So it was great to see what I'd seen today, a lot of stuff I didn't know. But in terms of the problems that we are encountering in the world today, whatever religions or denominations we come from, which is to do with ecology and the climate change, there is one aspect which is the vegetarianism and all the chemicals and pollutants. And my question is with regards to why see as the Dharma and what I see as the rituals, for the last 10 years when I've been practicing Ayurveda for myself in terms of medicine, people just see it as medicine but for me it's not just medicine, it's a whole way of life. And we've become so distant and isolated from that. And then what we then see that in the form of in the West, we see that in the form of science. And I would like to ask the people on the panel that if we are really going to go back to what the layman person would understand of what is Jainism, not this high level stuff, is how do we actually reclaim the natural sciences, the natural biologies, the natural systems which were there for thousands of years and gave the basis of a lot of the things we have today. So if I can, I'm going to have to intervene and just we have three questions here and sort of if anyone wants to respond holistically, the one question of some of the main thing. One more question. Okay, one more. I think if I can summarize all of these into one grand question with a couple minutes. I mean it seems to me that what has emerged here in a number of ways is actually a representation of a tension, and I use that in a creative word, that it has long existed in Jainism actually from the very beginning of the interaction between Kriya, that which is done with the body, and Gyan, that which is sort of the knowledge. And that's a problem that certainly people in contemporary India are wrestling with and also outside of India. How do you balance the actions which sort of allow you to bodily remember the religion and also remain focused on the abstract disembodied ideals in that way. That's a huge question. Anyone want to take that on for 60 seconds? I don't want to take on your question, but I wanted to just respond to a couple of the questions there. I think the first question I asked at what point do rituals become religion, right? I agree. Actually, ritual, this is what I stated was my finding. So my opinion is that rituals are actually part of true religion. What the young people that I studied had a problem with was that they said that their parents and their grandparents, and of course it doesn't include any of the grandparents and parents here, but their parents and grandparents performed rituals unthinkingly, that they performed them or they went to the temple, going to the temple was very important, doing some Mike was very important to them, but then when they had finished that, the next minute they would become angry and agitated over the smallest of things, that they weren't able to develop this sense of equanimity or apply Jain principles in all aspects of their lives, and they found that very disappointing. They found that sort of inauthentic in many ways, and so many of the young people are turning to Parushan for instance, but they're trying to reclaim the spirituality in those rituals and how the spirituality can then help them on their path to Samyakdarshan and so on. So I'm not arguing that rituals cannot be true religion, but this is what they see around them and they're trying to reclaim some of it in their own way. To the third question about Ayurveda, there's a lot of debate amongst young people, and particularly in the US and I'm sure Christopher Chappell and some of the other US based scholars will probably be aware of it, about vegetarianism versus veganism. And the impact of these diets. So there's actually a lot of thinking going on. Young Jains are pursuing very scientific professions so that they know the signs. They also know the Western signs. I know you were shaking your head. They know the Western signs and they're trying to apply it. A growing number are trying to apply it through becoming vegan because they see that as having even less of an impact on the environment. Now Ayurveda is a different system and growing up in the Western countries, many of them are medical doctors and so allopathic systems are very different to Ayurvedic systems and so there is a kind of a clash between the two. But what you're asking is, I think, a different kind of a question. But what I would say is that many of the young people are aware of signs and are aware of their impact on the earth and they're trying to sort of figure out ways of living lives that are less impactful and one way to do that is through pursuing a vegan kind of lifestyle. Not everyone but a growing number. I explain three things. One is AIMSA, Aparigraha, Anekanta. Three-dimension is very important. And also, rituals is also neat. Philosophy, logic also neat. And festival and celebrations also neat. No one is immediately born and ethically philosopher. In primary knowledge, they will want rituals and go to temple and do the pujas. This is six essentials. So otherwise, we are unbelievers where the believers means that we must follow in the Jainism philosophy. It's the right faith, right knowledge and right conduct. So it's clear, rituals also need, music also need. Tantra means not like that tantra. It's the worst tantra. We are not accepted. Tantra means technique like machine, which one is easier to understand the people, non-violence and multi-dimension of understanding. Some people is very, very angrily telling the mantras, Om Brahm, Rheem Brahm, Brahm Brahm. Like that same thing. We also chanting recite and he also very great monk and great tantric. Then we don't give any disturbance. Like that. In the so many music and art and dance music, everything is need. Without, we, Aadina Tirthankarish says all the colors, 72 art. We can't ignore. So we look, hold the globe, non-violently and harmony with culture, heritage, everything need. How to utilize? How to don't waste, without waste, ecological globalization and how to friendly eco-friend life, social animal, human being. So how we will friendly with the other religion, other people and how we will eat food with nature. Naturally, it's friendly with the body, healthy. That's why veganism is also important and also sometimes it's the gene-wage food. It is not a veganism. Some kind of minimize hymns. So that's why Ayurveda is also important. Some Ayurveda garlic and onion is Ayurveda, Jainism not accepted. So Jaina Ayurveda is little bit different. So medicine, man shuddhi, vachana shuddhi, kaya shuddhi. One is world's challenge. One is how we will live healthy body, how we will healthy thing, and how we will healthy talk. That is important challenge in this world. I think at that point, I am going to have to cut it off because we have had an appropriate ritual and by having some words of wisdom from Batatakji. So thank you for everyone. And Peter, the floor is yours. Joan's question. Just one thing I'd like to say. I'm not a scholar myself, but when we're looking at true religion and we're looking at rituals and customs, is the time cycle not a part of it at all? Does the panel not feel that the current time cycle we're in has a lot of influence into why so many rituals and customs are followed now? What was followed when Mairi Prakwan was around or two and a half thousand years ago where true religion was being practiced? In the current state, that type of religion I think is almost impossible to practice because we don't have that capability as humans on the planet. I don't think the right kind of vibrations are around on the planet. I don't think that the sort of acharyas and the sort of high-grade spiritual people we've had, kundkunda acharya, all of them are not on the planet anymore. So if rituals and customs were not practiced with the depth they're practiced now, the religion would die. There would be nothing. So to keep communities and to keep people and to keep some kind of legacy for a religion, for I don't think there is any choice for communities. I don't think there is a choice and I think in a lot of ways that's probably why where even like say for example with Pajoshan, we have it once a year, but it's not followed like it used to be followed when I was a young girl. Now it's become a big festival. You don't just go and do your prathikam and after that there's like a social event. So I don't know. It's just my input, how I feel and what I've seen is growing up. Okay, thank you. The reason why in the current climate is because in Jainism and in other Eastern philosophy there is a beautiful word called bow. And if you understand the meaning of rituals, if you can imbibe those invoking and the true piousness of those rituals, then I think it is a vehicle to take you to whether it's mantras or whatever to true religion and that path. An un-third journey that we heard today. The word un-third journey. Sorry, sorry. So Ato, you can tell a lot of things because these young people now they are really trained. They have learned so much of Jainism rituals, Samayik and Prathikamand. And these young people, because they have learned so much, now they're teaching and so many other young Jains are involved. So Ato I think can say something more because he was the founder president. Thank you. I guess Tantra is never fixed. I mean you just reminded me. We started a practice called Experiments with Jainism and we wrote about it as well and we did a series of experiments around Jain principles where we, for a week we observed a principle and kept a daily diary to see how it felt as young people living in modern Britain, whether it is practical to live a Jain way of life. So Tantra is never fixed and I think we can and we should be creative in inventing new ways of explaining and practicing the traditional values and make them attractive to young people. Thank you. Can we have a round of applause for the panelists here and for all of you? I'm going to have the last word. Well, okay, Peter, do you have the microphone? No, I have the microphone. So Peter, you gave up the microphone and then you'll get it back and you have the last word. The last word is that I'd like to propose a vote of thanks to Sohas, the COGS and especially Dr. Peter Flugel and his team for hosting this event yet again and managing it so well. So three cheers for the team. Thank you very much. Well, I would like to pass on this vote of thanks to the speakers who came from all over the world on their own cost or the cost of their universities. We learned a lot, I think, and lots of new ideas we have to ponder. I just want to mention that I have the impression the papers were extremely good and complementary and it's probably possible to put a volume together. Otherwise, of course, we always invite those who want to publish quickly to submit something for the IJJS online and in print and, well, be in touch. I think we have a system now to publish things a little bit quicker. With these closing remarks, I would like to invite all the speakers to the Divana restaurant where we always have our libation and our food, vegetarian food. And theme of next conference. The theme of the next conference. It's very good. In collaboration with the Gansagar Foundation, we have already many months ago decided to have a conference on Jainism and science that is also advertised in the newsletter. And I think there's an enormous pool of expert scientists in India who have a lot to say, so that will be a major migration to soars at least next year from India. We all like to hear something about nuclear physics and its relationship to Jainism and, of course, many other things. Medical science. Whatever. We have limited time. We have limited time, I must say, so some selection will be made. But nevertheless, I look forward to this and some of the issues mentioned here I think I hope will be addressed at that occasion. So, see you again next year. Thank you.