 The way we market, the way we approach our customers, the way that we really nourish that sales pipeline has to change. Welcome to the Smarter Building Materials Marketing Podcast, helping you find better ways to grow leads, sales, and outperform your competition. All right, everybody, welcome to Smarter Building Materials Marketing, where we believe your online presence should be your best salesperson. I am Zach Williams, and my co-host, Beth Papiklav, is not here. So I'm flying solo today, but I am so pumped about today's guest. We have an awesome guest who I've been friends with for a while now, who I've been really excited to have on the show. We've got Toby Bostwick, who's the VP of Product and Brand at Fortress Building Products on the show with us today. Toby, welcome to the show. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me on. Very excited, as you mentioned. Very excited to be on the Vinvio podcast. I watch it religiously, so I look forward to it. Thank you. Awesome, awesome. And Toby, you and I have gotten to know each other the last couple of years. And I'm not just saying this because you're on the show. I really respect what you're doing and how you're building, but also how you lead your team, which I think we're gonna talk a little about today. But for listeners, if they don't know who you are, they don't know who Fortress Building Products is, can you give us just a 30,000 foot view of what you do and what you guys sell and who you guys market to and things like that? Love to, I appreciate it, Zach. I'll start with Fortress. Where I work, it's an important piece of who I am. Then at Fortress, almost three years now, the number one thing about Fortress and why I really moved to Fortress was about the purpose that we serve. Yes, we are in building products. We manufacture, steal, aluminum, composite, different building products in eight different categories. So I'll drop that plug in there. But more importantly, it's about our purpose, right? And our purpose is leading global change in the way people build and live. And it's something that is deep for me in that passion of really helping people change what they do, how they live, so bringing solutions to the market. At Fortress, we definitely bring solutions. That's what separates us from what I consider many in the industry is not just trying to bring new products to market, but bring a solution. I know that you used a lot, but that's where we start. You brought up how we're developing and leading the teams and it's really starting with the solution in mind for the customer. And that's really about Fortress. Being there three years, it's been quick. I've been counting them in dog years, Zach, so they're going really fast. So it feels like 21 years as I look at it with everything that's happened in the last three years. Of course, it's been a lot of moving parts and pieces at Fortress. So you got there in 2019? Is that right? That's correct. August 2019. So you thought like, oh, things are normal. And then like six months in, the world gets turned upside down, right? It's amazing, right? It's like my wife always says I'm a sucker for punishment, right? In some way, shape or form. And when I started, it was like, oh, this is going to be smooth sailing. Sure, Stad, the owner of Fortress was restructuring the business. And great foundation of where we were going to go. I'm like, I got it, right? It's mapped out. And then all of a sudden, COVID hits right after Deck Expo of that year. And the whole world just changed. And it really took a different perspective. A little bit on me, as you had asked. I've been in the industry for 20 years. Starting in 2002, from home building to commercial construction, product development focused all the way through. But you name it, one area of building products I've stayed in my entire career. And the last three years have been a very different, challenging, but also rewarding of really digging down, finding out who you are as you go through these last three years. And excited to talk about it a little bit with you. Absolutely. So I think the thought and the idea that's on everybody's mind in building products right now is, what do you think is going to happen? What's going to happen with building, with construction? I mean, I read two different articles today. And this is about the cost of oil, which does impact building products. And one was by Citigroup and one was by JP Morgan. And Citigroup was like, hey, we project that oil is going to be $65 a barrel by end of year. And JP Morgan was saying, hey, we think it's going to be close to $300 or something crazy with that. Don't call me on the exact amount. But the reality is nobody knows. And that feels like what we've lived in for the last few years is that nobody really knows what's going on. I think that's why we need stronger leadership now more than ever. And so I want to talk to you about marketing, because I love marketing. But I really want to understand is you being a leader of people, being a leader of a marketing organization and an organization that's gone through restructuring. And you guys are at the front lines of what's happening in building products. I want to know, number one, what are you seeing? What are you hearing? What do you all think and how are you approaching this? And then, secondarily, how does that translate to how you're leading your team? Absolutely. No, it's a good question. And if I get this right, then I'm going to go buy a lottery ticket right afterwards as well. But it's so funny, because hindsight's such a great teacher. And I think what we've learned is going to help us as to what we're saying to move forward. And what I mean by that is we've got to be prepared in a different way differently than we ever have before. And as you just articulated, you can have barrel at $300 or crude oil at $300 a barrel or $65. That's the world we live in right now. And if you read one article to another article, you're going to get a very different sentiment of what's really happening. And for me, the way I look at the industry right now in building products or in building materials and specifically to our area, we do have an insulation layer. And I believe that. I've seen it right. I went through the 2007, 2008 coming out of home building, saw what happened in going to an alternative wood alternative material manufacturer. There is some insulation there. As people start to focus on their home, refocus where they spend their discretionary income, the long-term play is still a good investment in your house. So those homeowners, they're still an investment there that, yes, the dust has to settle. Inflation is real. What we're going through right now is real. So an acknowledgement of the present is going to help us prepare for the future. But the investment in your home is still going to continue. And the same thing is true with businesses. We've got to keep going through with business. And so whether it's your home or the business that you serve, alternative building materials, wood alternative materials like where I focus specifically, they still have a play. The sales cycle is going to change. That's what I see being a little bit differently. So the way we market, the way we approach our customers, the way that we really nourish that sales pipeline has to change. And if we learned anything from last year is that you've got to keep marketing, you've got to keep developing, you've got to keep nourishing that sales pipeline during the tough times and the good times. So last year, when orders were just coming in and coming in and coming in, how did we continue to nourish that pipeline? How did we continue to market, reach new customers and new opportunities? So that's what I see in that near future right now is those people that are being creative, that don't give up, that don't get discouraged, continue to market, continue to push through, find those segments in the business where growth is still going to happen, but be patient with it. Got to be patient as we're going through this next six months to a year and really finding what I hate to say new normal. Go for it, man. Yeah, that new normal got just overused all the time, right? But yeah, that's what I see. The opportunity is still there. There's an insulation with discretionary spin that in this industry will continue to be there. And I firmly believe that's going to continue over the next year. Won't be pretty. There's going to be down times. There's going to be slowdowns. We face it now. Many have in the industry. If you read some of the reports in the publicly traded companies or private companies, there's some tough times that people are going through right now. So I don't want to be, you know, I want to be empathetic to that and understand that there are tough times happening. Let me ask you this. When you think about Fortress' strategy, what percentage of your business is renovation versus new construction? Sure, I mean, it's high. I mean, we're 90 plus, right? You know, we get some of that new construction in terms of through our traditional steps though, through our traditional two-step. That'll help feed some of that. But it's going to be 90 pluses still in that R&R market. I think, and I love to get your take on this, I think R&R is going to become even more important because if you think about it, there's a large portion of the United States, not if I go macro on you. This is what I love is like, if you look at macro, a large portion of the United States has been locked into a 3% or even sub 3% mortgage, right? And so they're looking at like five and a half or six. And I mean, granted, depending upon when this podcast drops, it could increase or decrease when you look at that mortgage rate. Sure. And so more or less, it might be depending upon the percentage here, but there's going to be a percentage of people that are like, hey, I'm not going to move right now because interest rates are so high, I can't trade my current house for a better house without substantially increasing my cost, my monthly mortgage payment. And so I think, and I love to get your perspective, I think renovation is going to become even bigger than it has even over the last two years. As we saw renovation huge through COVID, what you're going to see is people are like, hey, I want to move, but I can't, you know, I'm not going to increase my mortgage. I'm just going to go renovate. I'm going to make an addition. I'm going to renovate my kitchen. I'm going to do whatever it is to make my house in an even better environment. Because you said this earlier, and I think this is something people forget, is like we pre COVID, we looked at our home a lot of times we justified buying it purely through the lens of what is that financial investment? Am I going to see return? But I think more and more people are also seeing, well, what's the emotional investment? What's the investment in my family and having a space that's really built for us? You know, because we're spending more time at home. And so I'd be curious to get your take as somebody who's really on our side. Do you have the same sentiment or you're still waiting to see how, you know, things play out? I do. So it's an interesting way you put it because I'll speak personally, you know, whether luck plays into it or not. I do think timing is everything, right? But also in the last year, when you bought a home is critical. As you just pointed out, as interest rates continue to rise, right now it's tough, but those that are locked in at those lower interest rates, what we saw and what we're seeing across the country is that drove instant equity into that home, right? So now that spend is available, right? And as people start to tighten down a little bit and you see that you have that equity in your home, that makes the availability to do your backyard pergola or to put up a new fence or to renovate your kitchen, whatever the R&R is, it's gonna be there for those people that bought at that time, right? The sensitivity factor says, yeah, there's others on the flip side. So I wanna be aware of that. But Zach, I agree with you. I think that will generate, that's that insulation we were talking about or I brought up a little bit is on the fun, you know, on the upside in building products, you get that demand, right? And that supply is tight and that demand grows, but then when things start to slow down, you get the insulation of, now I look at my home as an investment. I look at it as what I wanna invest my money into because most people stay in their home seven years, as an example, seven years from now, we'll be back up on a swing, right? We've come out of this period in time that we're in, I'm staying away from the R word. So, you know, we're coming through this period of time and the GDP will change and all these things will start to change for us and we'll have a different mindset as we look at five years from now when somebody goes to sell their house again. So, putting in that new backyard's going to pay off, putting in that new kitchen or that new bathroom, it will pay off and that money is sitting there because of what we've seen over the last 18, 24 months in housing where I live down here in Florida, you can't find a house. It is still at that point of where soon as it comes on the market, it's a cash deal, it's the day of and you gotta be ready to buy sometimes at five to 10% over asking price just to get into a home. Now, it's a little bit tougher now when interest rates continue to climb so it does slow it down a little bit but I think having that equity line is going to be there, it's going to continue to boost the R and R side of the residential part of what we look at. If we shift and talk about marketing for a moment, I want to hit your take here, Tobion. You said this at the beginning about the importance of continuing to invest in marketing. I think that's also though, when you look at marketing, it's also an indicator of leadership and not to go too deep on you. But if you think about it, if you as an organization are saying, hey, we're going to continue to market through an upswing or through downswing or whatever it might be, what you're doing is you're reinforcing to your team how you feel or how you view the business. And so, yes, I want to hear how you're approaching your marketing and is your messaging at all to your audience changing? But I also want to hear from you what kind of things are you coaching and speaking into your team and how are you leading them through this giant question mark that is the current state of like society? Absolutely. Can you talk to me a little bit about that? Yeah, I think it's a great question. Something close to me and you know me well, Zach. So I'm a passionate person. And when I look at it, I have to give credit where credit is due. As I think about marketing, I had a mentor, an industry pioneer really that told me a long time ago that we need to do three things in this industry, especially in building products is number one, make a better and different product. Number two, be easy to do business with. And then number three from a marketing side, you got to tell everybody about it. And if you do those three things really well, you're going to be successful, right? We're not doing heart transplants. We're not changing the industry through scientific discovery and those things. We're bringing solutions to a need. And that's what we do in building products and not to simplify how important that is. But if we concentrate on those things as you ask about the marketing, the messaging and the team conversation that we have is to speak to the customers how they receive messages. And I know that sounds kind of odd, but customers now versus two years ago before the pandemic, they're receiving marketing differently, right? Whether that be digitally, right? So through the structural side of it, digitally, online, on their phone, those things, that's one part. But how you talk to them is extremely different, right? How an architect looks at an opportunity now, it is different than how he looked or she looked at it two to three years ago. Same thing for a contractor, a deck builder, right? You're seeing changes in the market. So how we talk to them as a marketing department, as a product team, and as an innovation group, and those are the three areas, Zach, that I have the opportunity to lead, it is different than what we did three years ago. We have to understand, yeah, go ahead. Can you give me an example of that, like brass tacks? Like, hey, we spoke to this audience this way and now we're finding, shoot, this doesn't work anymore. Or does it work as well? Very, very clearly. With contractors, I'll give you a perfect example. We did a lot of push, right? Two to three years ago, we did a lot of push. So, hey, we've got this good idea, we've got this new railing, we've got a new fence, we've got a new frame, and it's a great innovation. You should buy it. Take it, hey, here you go. Here's a display, here's the samples and all those kind of things, which is great. I'm not downplaying that. But if that doesn't meet their specific market needs, right? And New England is different than the Southeast. Denver is different than the Bay Area in San Francisco, right? And if it rains in Seattle, doesn't mean it's raining down in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And we have customers in all those different places. That's just North America. Then you go to the UK, you go to Australia, you go to Ireland, you go to these different places. And understanding that one contractor in one of those areas, absolutely, you cannot take this one-size-fits-all approach anymore and think, well, I'm gonna sell frame this way because this contractor in Denver, Colorado really likes it. He's an innovative person. He just wants to be at the leadership of driving new innovation. Well, that may be great for that contractor. So to specifically answer, if I move to the Atlanta market where the pricing is different, the pressures are different, that contractor, they may need that conversion opportunity. So how do I get them to understand how to upsell from traditional treated wood to a steel frame? That messaging is completely different than if I'm leading with an innovation-type story or if I'm leading with a conversion story. So being able to craft messages, whether it's through social media is huge, Zach. The way that we've picked out who our influencer partners are or how we talk about our products now to those target markets is completely different than it was when we were doing that push. Now it's listen first and then create the pull-through side. What are you using to listen? Is it just conversation? Are you seeing things online specifically? So two areas. You hit on both of them, but I'll be a little bit more specific. Online is huge, right? Your chat rooms. It is amazing. If you jump on a Facebook contractor chat room, how much you learn? Not only about manufacturers, but about what's working, what's not working? What am I feeling in my world? We have contractors right now, as we speak to that, that are still backed up three, four months. But we also have key contractors in this market that are starving for work because they're starting to see people pull back and those $100,000 projects are no longer just there, right? Just say, write the order and let's go. Customers, their customers are taking their time now. So on Facebook chat, I'd say one thing that has really picked up social media, whether it's Instagram, TikTok, those types of things, I love them all. I don't understand them completely. That's why I have people way smarter than me in the marketing department doing those things. But the feedback we get from those, priceless. People are real and I think there's a sense of security. People kind of let down their guard a little bit when you're on Facebook or Instagram I'll go through the comments on our fortress Instagram. So many great questions or input. Hey, did you think about doing this? Did you think about us in our market? How can you get us product quicker? And you would have never known that if you weren't on those different channels where they feel comfortable conveying that type of messaging. The other side that, and I'll just be really clear, now more than ever talking to our customers and I mean distributors, dealers, contractors, our home center partners, that quality time, right? Just like what our wives have always told us, gotta spend that quality time, right? Quality time. That quality time in five minutes can be quality time. One thing you ask about my coaching and some of the things that has really shown to be important with my team. And I got a great group, they get the benefit of that is that spending time with a contractor every week. So we'll start our Monday afternoon calls with a conversation. Number one, it's always about core values. Can't move away from that. And number two, it's about what contractors did you talk to this week? What did they say? You ask your marketing department those questions. Oh yeah. Your product department, all that. So product department, everyone has a, I'll call it an ultimatum, but there is a directive. We don't learn anything by just talking internally. As soon as you just talk internal, what we have found is you start making short-sighted decisions. And when you talk externally, you'll make long-term decisions. You'll make those decisions that are beneficial. And that's what we found talking with our contractors. Those customers that are putting money in the bank, right? Those that are paying the bills. Those are the people that are giving you the honest feedback. And that's where it really starts to come into your decision-making. Am I getting honest feedback from my distributor partners? Do I have a line of communication with my dealers? What's going out the door? What are they selling? What's not moving? What are we doing well? And the same thing, obviously, at the contractor level. So those three different levels in understanding their business is critical to being able to make good decisions on our side and understand our business. That's super smart. I love that you're tasking your team, regardless of whatever division that they're in, that they got to be talking to the customer. Because you're absolutely right. And we all see this. We've all been guilty of this, is if you're just talking to your internal team, your ideas become very insular. You don't have that outside perspective. But you said something a minute ago, I think it's, I wanna get your take on Toby, which is you're talking about those people that maybe they have a $100,000 project that they're seeing pullback. And the last two years for a lot of companies in building products, whether it's the trade or a contractor, builder, even manufacturers, if you look at that scale of fear and greed, it's been very much greed. It's like, hey, I got more. I mean, I can't even make enough product to sell. And now you're starting to see like you said that pullback. And so I think the biggest message that manufacturers, and you push back against this if you disagree, but I think the biggest message that manufacturers are gonna need to start to speak to is the greatest pain point that people are gonna start deal with, which is uncertainty. Is that these guys, they're like, hey, I've been really hot for a while now. Is it gonna continue? Like uncertainty, I think it's the biggest thing. It's more than like job flow. It's more than even finding someone to do the work or even finding product. It's the overall uncertainty of the times because if there's anything that's happened over the last two years, even three years now, is that we live, and I hate the term, but it's very uncertain. And like things are changing so quickly. And I think that's why people are tired too. Like you were talking to us before we started recording. It's like, we're not tired because we're working so hard. We're tired because things are changing so much so quickly. Yeah, you're 100% right. I'll directly answer your question there in terms of contractors. As I told you, and this came directly from contractors, obviously won't use their names, but spent a lot of time with them last week, face to face. We had a great build off. I don't know if you've probably heard about it, but going on out in East Texas. And it was a great opportunity with many different manufacturers in building products to get together, but to have real conversations. And you'll see some that still have that backlog that's like, I had this pipeline build up. I was six to seven months as far as my lead time last year, but now that's down to three. But I still have a good book of business, good order coming through. But the flexibility is a word that I think every contractor right now is using all the time. And what I mean by that is, they need to be flexible in having so many different projects open because you don't wanna give that time for somebody to question. You want to be able to say, okay, hey, let's move this forward. Let's do your initial investment. Drawings are done. We've already moved forward because that hesitancy as you brought up is really starting to happen. Do I wait? Should I wait and see what happens? My gas just went up to $5 a gallon or $6. I think maybe I should wait to spend this $40, $50, $60,000. So flexibility around scheduling, flexibility around having multiple projects going at once. I heard it time and time again last week. It was extremely important. But then understanding what makes you you as a contractor and a builder is extremely important, right? So your value that you bring to a homeowner is different than what it was last year, right? As you just brought up, brand loyalty as an example went right out the door last year. But now it's different. Absolutely is. Last year it was like, can you get my project on the books for this year? And now you're seeing the hesitation, that pullback. Absolutely. Toby, this is really interesting. I mean, I feel like I could talk to you about this for hours, but I want to know if you're, let's say a manufacturer and you're listening to this and you're hearing you talk about how you're approaching the market, how you're tasking your team, how you're leading. What's the one piece of advice that you would give them heading into the next six months next year if you're saying, hey, I want to be successful. I want to continue to grow. What would you tell them? Yeah, I appreciate you asking that. It's something that being in building products, it means something to me it always has. I'll never leave this industry. And the reason why is because it's a people industry. And one thing that I always have, and I was taught a long time ago, and it's been successful for me in my career, is two things. And that is separating the fact that we manage a business and we lead people. And there's a big difference between how you manage a business and make those type of decisions and how you lead people. And from my perspective in talking with other people in the industry, right now is that critical time for leaders to lead. And that is with your family at home. That's in your organizations close to home. But it's also with your team and at work and being able to truly lead in a different way than you led before the pandemic, before all the things broke out with COVID and supply chain and work from home. There was all those different things. And then during that time period, as we talked about earlier, it's head down. You're really grinding. You're making those day to day, sometimes hour to hour decisions. As for my side, right? With a global type manufacturing perspective, we were making minute to minute hour to hour decisions sometimes. How tired was that? Like how exhausting. It is a grind, right? Sometimes there's a 12 hour time difference with some of our manufacturing partners and you're making decisions around the clock. You're making decisions when the supply chain and you're looking at the different port closures that happen or you're dealing with a shutdown in a certain part of the country, it changes your approach day to day, hour to hour and how you led during then towards now as things are starting to change, right? You're starting to see a little bit of softening on the supply chain. You're seeing, yes, there are some difficulties, kind of some new headwinds we're facing, but some of those things where steel prices, we're all praying it's starting to come down a little bit, aluminum's starting to come down a little bit, freight, we're all praying that it starts to come down a little bit. And as you see those things happening, now it's how do we lead coming out of this? How do we inspire? How do we really get our teams moving in that direction? And for me, and I hope you don't mind I've always positioned myself as leading, and I call it the four T's that I think is important with leadership. And that's truth, that's tools, that's training, and that's time. And what I mean by that is the truth is all about the transparency in the why, right? You hear everybody talking about understanding the why, but it is so critical right now that we are transparent in what we're saying, how we're saying it, what we're conveying to our team. And it's important as you're evaluating your team, right? So a part of leading people is also evaluating those people that you lead. That's part of the responsibility you have as a leader. So the first one being truth, the second one is the tools. The tools is do you give them the opportunity to do the job, whether it be a computer program that they have, but the tools to execute their job at the highest level and the potential to do those things. And then the last two are really all about do they have the right tools, but then it's do they have the right training? Are they trained correctly, right? As the clear expectations are their KPI set where that training to do the job with the tools that you've given me, I can do that to the best of my ability. And then the last one is probably the most important and it may seem simple, but to me it is the most important. Have you given them the time to execute and did you communicate what that time was? So if you've told them the truth, if you've given them the tools, if you've given them the training that they need, now do they need three months, do they need six months, do they need a year in that seat doing that job, what's that cycle of time that they need to be successful? And the reason that I bring that up, right? We're talking about this great resignation and talking about all these different things, but if you can evaluate your people and what I've learned over the years, if I can say yes to those threes or those Ts, I've given the truth, I've given the tools, I've given the training, then I'm given the time and I still have somebody that may be not doing what I need them to do, I may have a people problem. I may have the wrong person in that seat. I may have the wrong person on the bus. Maybe they need to move on, right? And that's a responsibility of what we have as leaders now, but you gotta have a system in my opinion to execute on that as a leader as you're leading those people. That's great. Toby, this is awesome and hats off to you for what you guys are building and how you're doing it, no pun intended. If someone wants to connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that? Absolutely. Yeah, so the best way to get ahold of me, Zach, is through my email, TobyBee at FortressBP.com. So, T-O-B-Y-B at FortressBP.com would be the quickest way to get ahold of me. Also, connect with me on LinkedIn. I can definitely see LinkedIn being a very beneficial piece for how we continue to grow this industry, specifically to building products. So either my email or look me up on LinkedIn. And then for Fortress, you can always jump on the FortressBP.com website and do on a contact me on there and we can definitely touch base. It's been awesome. Toby, man, thank you so much for taking time to chat with us. This has been super helpful. Truly appreciate it, Zach. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. And for our listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, make sure you go to venvio.com slash podcast to subscribe to get more. Until next time, I'm Zach Williams. Thanks, everybody.