 Good evening everyone and thank you for being here Thank you Carol as well for the introduction and for TDC and for Amazon for bringing us together this evening When I first got the invitation, of course, I'm very honored to to be opening the the conference The second thought I has I had was like fuck it. I'm old It's it's not the kind of You know, there's certain kinds of presentations that come with a little bit more pressure This is one of them and I've been stressing about this for like three months now. So But hopefully it will be okay. I was told that this presentation can be a little bit more personal in nature so I decided to I'm not gonna show you my vacation pictures. So just in case you're wondering But this talk is a little bit different than one that I would give if it was part of the Regular type-con program. I've I've spoken at type-con before and other conferences, but this one is a little bit different and I will start with Disclaimers I Will be talking about politics and design today as part of the talk Any views that's a disclaimer's any views that I share with you today my political views represent myself and not the company Monotype where I work. We are not as a company engaged in politics But of course as individual people we have and because this is a personal talk for me I really wish that we do talk about politics today also when it comes to design I also will be sharing some of my Perspectives on on design today and this is again not representative of the monotype view of design This is Nadine at monotype. So we are for type directors for monotype I'm just one of them We have different views and we are encouraged to be different so we're not you know We have the freedom of looking at typefaces in different ways and that's totally okay So this claim is out of the way. Ah one more also I Know that maybe some of the things I will say might be a little bit insulting to people I will try to do so as graciously as possible And and and as respectfully as I can Because I am discussing politics at the beginning Roughly half the people might not like what I'm going to say depends how much of a blue or a red state this is Let's see we will hear I think the laughter we can tell so Anyway, um one of the reasons why I Wanted to talk about politics is is because my the one belief that I do have when it comes To design is that the typefaces that we design cannot be Separated from the reality they live in We simply cannot do that typefaces are ingredients They come to life when they are used and they are used in the reality and environment we live in and there is this continuous dialogue between the typefaces and What they are trying to say there is no disconnection between those So it is important then that we discuss the reality Which we will do now a little part of it not all of it obviously otherwise we sit here forever And then we get to talk about the typefaces. So there will be design later, but yeah, I hope you can Bear with me. So I I also have a hundred and forty seven slides for today. So brace yourselves. It's gonna be long So Yeah, I came across Actually before I get into this another reason why it is also important to talk about politics and design together I don't know if you've heard about the fuss or the hype or the controversy around Apple changing the Emoji for the gun. Yes. So yeah By sure. Yeah, so basically, okay, so some so they change their the emoji of a gun into a toy gun And that is a political statement that came through design This is not the isolated instance where design and politics have merged together And I do believe that design has a very strong role in shaping the conversation of today And I do believe that we as designers can do a lot more than what we currently do So it's not just myself who is being interested in politics. It's even as big as Apple and Yeah, so let's just get into it. So so this article that I Came across it's called making sense of one particular reality and and the The reality is why Trump is so popular. So yes, we're gonna talk about Trump As if he hasn't been covered enough in the media, but anyway, so so it's a very interesting article because it talks about a Neuroscience, so we're not saying this is left or right or whatever it is We're not discussing policy or lack of expertise or whatever it is We're just the or the neuroscientists who wrote this is simply trying to understand Why is it that he has such massive support? So One of the things he talks about and and I do recommend just Google His name and the article and then you'll you'll see He talks about people who lack the expertise in an area of knowledge often have a cognitive bias that prevents them from Realizing that they lack expertise In simpler terms, they're not smart enough to know they're dumb So I'm quoting him. I'm not saying this. I'm quoting him. So so basically The the the problem is that these people are not aware that they are misinformed and If you bring an expert and they try talking to this person this person is like I don't need this opinion I already know the truth. I don't need more and and this is why The people who try to engage with Trump supporters when they bring experts to say no He's you know, this is not true or you can't actually build a wall or whatever it is It just doesn't make any sense. So so this is then a small demographic that exists in every society Always some of those and and and so this is this is also interesting When there was the Brexit, do you guys know about Brexit? Yes, okay when there was one of the Leading people in the vote. Yes for brexit. He he was on interview and somebody was saying it like yes But experts are saying that this is gonna be terrible and he told them and I think A phrase that sums up the reality today People are tired of experts and and that is that is a very sad thing but it is also true in some cases that People have come to expect that it's not important to have experts. It's a bit scary as Us as experts on our field, but it's also a bit of It's it's a sad reality for all of us that This lack of trust in institutions and in experts is coming about so So this is an important thing another thing he talks about in the in the in the article Which is was a study and they had conservatives and they had liberals and they were You know shown startling noises and graphic images and the conservatives showed more of its stronger physiological reaction Which is quite interesting because you wouldn't expect that but for some reason That was the case if we Think Again, what they were saying is that this reaction is automatic and reacts very strongly to fear Then again, if we remember For example, but John McCain was saying that he's fired up the crazies Then you I'm quoting again. I'm not saying anything. So so so this is You have these people who are You know reacting more strongly to fear and and sometimes so fearful that they are coming across as being crazy and this is again an unfortunate situation, but He goes on to add to that Why is it that these kinds of people are becoming noisy now? Why didn't we have them before? And and he says that this is coming from a terror management theory That when people are reminded of their own mortality Which happens with fear monitoring then they will be more strongly they will more strongly defend those who share their worldviews and national or ethnic identity and That they will act out more aggressively towards those who don't so when you tell people that this other group is Coming to kill you and rape you you bring out fear in that person and they will become more racist just by the nature of it And in reality There is a racist in all of us We all have the possibility to be good people and bad people It's just you choose to try to be a better version of yourself And you try to not give in to being afraid of people who are not like you if you have a group of people random Bring them at the beginning of the day and this is another study Just half of them give them the blue t-shirt the other half the red t-shirt by the end of the day They're divided because you divided them because it's natural instinct for humans to want to bond with people who are like them because we need To be with people who are like us because we need to build communities and and and this is the reality So we need to move or be able to move beyond that and it takes more effort to be accepting of people who do not look like you Or do not talk like you or do not live like you and and and so yeah when we are afraid We are more regressing back to those instances But then the question is why are we so afraid today? And if you look at the statistics of how many people actually dying in the US these days from terrorist attacks It's like not as high as you would think it is given the media if you look at the coverage of Fox News for example for the last seven years and the kind of vitriol that has been blasted on the airwaves in the 100 days first 100 days of President Obama's term They had like this montage with the Karmina Burana song like You know with like the collage and everything and showing pictures of bombs that scary really scary stuff And you're looking like what really should be escaped now and and and and there is always this He's going to come for your guns and then there's gonna be the death squad killing your grandma's He will he is at some point. He's Hitler at some point. He's Muslim Some point. He's not even American There's never been this much disrespect of the presidency in any presidency before it's shameful But it's also creating a climate of fear of the president himself plus the people who are actual enemies of this country So it's a very scary thing because if you cannot trust your own government and you cannot and you're scared of your enemies Like what the fuck do you do? So it's really it's it's no wonder people are scared and if they are scared Yeah, of course, they will become more nationalist It's not a good thing but but this is what's happening. And so there is this climate of fear and and the problem is that for many years Every time they want or many people on the right want to criticize the president it would be like Yeah, he's a Nazi. He's Hitler and the the the ludicrity of the argument is often that you know what Obama likes To have breakfast, you know who else likes breakfast Hitler That's that that's that's how it is sometimes and and it's a little bit scary So the the problem is that when you get to a point where you have someone who is running for president Actually using Nazi propaganda actually showing fascist tendencies. You can't use the argument that he's actually Sounding like a Nazi because it's been used so many times before that. Yeah, he's it's the boy who cried It's been the scary thing every time you want to disagree with someone you call them a Nazi that when you finally get someone who actually retweets racist and Xenophobic and all sorts of vile things on Twitter you can't actually say he's a Nazi anymore because it just sounds like what everybody else has been Saying about Obama already is it's the n-word is or the Nazi word is no longer effective, which is again a lot of too much Hyped up fear and now you get to a point where yeah, it's it's a little bit ridiculous And I'm not the first one who said this there's a very good interview with John Stuart about Why Trump is there and and he speaks much better than I do so I would recommend that you maybe listen to that as well But but the crazy thing is the other scary thing is is the political discourse itself because Trump is not an Isolated incident he it started with Palin and then there was the election cycle of last time where basically there was one crazy Guy after the other and then they couldn't agree and then you got Romney and then they didn't go anywhere And this time they just wanted that crazier and crazier and and there is this word that Stephen Colbert talks about It's called the truthiness, which is not the truth It's just something that sounds like the truth and there was this interview with newt Gringrich the other day And he was like there is more you know death and and you know more crime in the u.s And things are going worse and the interviewer from CNN She was like but no like if you look at the facts the numbers they're down in the u.s And he was like no no how come about Chicago she's like yeah an exception But the rest of the u.s. Is coming down and and he's saying like no no But that's a fact people are afraid and that's a fact she was like yes But but the fact is like the numbers are down but and he was like no it feels like that And we got to a point now where if something feels to be true then it is true and and that I think is the scariest thing of all It's not Trump or Fox News or whoever it is who is running It's the fact that we've come to a point where people don't no longer Can distinguish between what is true what is fact and what is a feeling and feelings can be very easily manipulated And then when you have someone with a very good entertainment history and can actually put on a good show Then you get what we have now and and that's That's the scary part so and the the problem also when we have these kinds of elections is that we listen to people speaking and and we're hearing all of these messages, but We forget and then four years later. We hear them again But in the meantime is anyone paying attention to the voting records what these people are actually doing? and it is shocking sometimes the What people say on the trail on the campaign trail and what actually gets to be voted upon one of the disgraces that I've Like the most shocking thing that I just cannot believe from a party which says that it is the most patriotic which is supposedly the republicans and they continually would not support the Health bill for the first responders on 9 11 and and I'm not even American and I am insulted like these people ran into buildings and They're getting cancer they're getting all sorts of diseases because of that action because of their heroic action And they can't even pay for the health treatment. This is a disgrace And so it is more important that we look at the voting records what people actually do When they get elected rather than simply the promises of what they want to do should they get elected and And and and this is why it comes back to us here. What what can we do as people? We we need to be taking ownership of the consequences of our voting of our communication with people of our Bringing out the vote all of it We we're not spectators in this we live this reality and we need to be able to engage with it So I hope you bear with me. So for people who? want or Were supporting Bernie? I can feel your pain and and and feel the burn as well but but the reality is he didn't get the nomination for one reason or another and and Many people don't want to vote for Hillary, but And I can also understand that as well But the reality is we we we vote for Program, it's not just the person and it's just it's not just the personality of the person or who makes better TV or You know, we need to be able to put aside our differences and and and to look for a program and and so Hopefully you you are on board of that program and and rather than simply taking a stand and letting the other side get to Then you clear codes for people who want Hillary Well, you've been waiting for it, right? So go get the vote out Don't just vote get your friends to vote and see what you want to do on election day Drive someone if they don't have a car babysit for your neighbor so that they can go vote or People who are unable to register help them register. This is important getting the vote out is more important than simply the one vote that we cast For the conservatives who do not want to support who are not currently supporting Trump There's a lot of you I know and and your leadership is also in the same position and I cannot tell people what to vote or not to vote but if it were me I would I would Would keep my honor and not vote for this person It's just you you need your party back and he has derailed it and if it continues like this, it falls off the cliff It's been pushed so much to the right. It's no longer itself. Ronald Reagan cannot be elected at the same age He's not crazy and and that's not what you want That's not what the parties stood for and and so this is important and for those who do want to vote for Trump You don't hear experts, so I and I don't know what I can say But maybe you could go on vacation on November and maybe to Mexico and maybe you discover they're not all rapists so Yeah And and why why am I saying this today? The crazy is always louder than the same and I do hope that we all belong to the same People who are more extreme are louder and they get to dominate the new cycle They get to make the headlines and the people who are normal normal everyday people. They're not loud enough because they're just regular They're not screaming their heads off But this is the majority the silent majority and it needs to find its voice and and and we need to be able to find the path and It's yeah, it's at least this is how I see it And and why engage in this discussion at all at the design conference as well. I'm sorry. I put you through this I hope some of it was interesting But but the reality is politics is everything politics is a mother who cannot You know get back to work because there isn't good childcare or someone who needs to do three jobs because minimum wage is so little or the pollution or Global warming or whatever it is. We're living it politics is not something that happens in Washington It's not something that happens only in Parliament in London or in some whatever Capital that it is we live this and we will live also in a time where politics has been stigmatized as something that is too divisive and something that we should not engage in but at the end of the day We cannot leave the choices of the things that we care about to people who only care about being elected if we Forget about these choices and only show up to vote once every four years We've given them free reign to basically suck up to their lobbyists and the people who fund their campaigns and I think that's something that puts us all into trouble so This is my last slide When it comes to politics, it's from the national convention the democrat national convention So President Obama was speaking and he mentioned Trump and people started booing and and he said just don't boo Just vote and and so fucksakes, please vote and and yeah, so that's it for the political section So I hope that wasn't too was it painful Okay, so now we get to talk about design thank God Yeah, like I've been very stressed about this section because We're here for design. We're not here for politics, but you know should Trump get elected and Things go as catastrophic as we all fear I would like to think at least that I tried something and and to have people here who can actually vote I don't I don't vote. I don't count here So no matter how much I scream even if I wanted to go crazy and scream nobody doesn't do anything So this is my contribution to trying to bring a slightly a different change in discourse. Thank you Thanks, so Okay so next part gets even worse so The title of the talk today is why we design and and I thought that maybe I started with why I design and then maybe you guys can think why you design and and I do want a long Q&A session and I The talk is structured in a way There's always the headline and then in a coat and then the text in in the other typeface and Completely forgot mind black completely anyway, so the text in bold this is a question that we should be asking ourselves and What is underneath? This is my answer and you all will have different answers and that's totally how it should be every person is governed by a unique set of experiences and We all have different answers But the important thing is not the answer is the fact that we ask these questions and then we engage in a conversation That's why there will be a Q&A session. So get your answers or questions ready And and so when you any one of these questions Should you just feel like showing up like in the Q&A and to just say your answer is more than welcome This is what we're supposed to be doing. So so why I design I was born in 1978 That's why hands the getting old comment so I was born in Beirut, I'm Lebanese and and This was in the middle of the Lebanese civil wars in 1975 to 1990 The country was practically destroyed similar in a smaller scale to what you see now in Syria and So and just a few years after that I started university in 1996. I studied graphic design and on the heels of the country that is destroyed and and That's my childhood. Basically. That's how I grew up. I started this graphic design program we took typography classes and I was faced with the Shocking and hard reality of being unable to design anything in Arabic because of the poor quality of typography We had extremely poor typefaces extremely Unexpressive horrible like really you cannot imagine beyond what you can imagine and On the other hand, there was this gorgeous calligraphy. I was very lucky to have a most wonderful teacher This is Samir Sayegh. He used to teach Arabic typography at the American University of Beirut He taught me Arabic typography. He's been my mentor since then every time I go home. I go see him and Look at his work. This is the one tableau that he's decided here on this side and He he opened my eyes and so many other designers as well to the beauty of Arabic calligraphy and to the potential of Arabic calligraphy to change to evolve because Arabic calligraphy got to its Classical golden age like around 200 years ago and since then it's been stuck in the same place And he feels that there is more that we can do and when it comes to typography There is for sure more that we can do and so he instilled in myself and in many others And this is why there's so many Lebanese type designers Designing Arabic typefaces. He sort of instilled in us the wish to do better and also a solid understanding that that we come with a very strong legacy in calligraphy and that typography does not have to look the way it does so One of the things that caught my eye in that course was The early early coffee. This is what you see over here This style had sort of disappeared You do not see this in day-to-day life Arabic calligraphy that I knew before I studied with him did not look like this The visual was not like this. It's more organic softer more round But I was very interested in this because it had a sense of modernity in it a powerful bold strong and Clean kind of look That I found to be very inspiring and it was the first time that I could look at Arabic calligraphy and think that We can be modern we can be contemporary in Arabic that it is possible because it's happened before it It's there and it was almost a revelation that that we can have this kind of Modernity come in into Arabic typography and and that was enchanting because if you are only faced with very classical Designs and then you want to express something which is not necessarily classical then you don't have the words you want to say and if you do not have the right typefaces you do not have the right expression and if you don't have the right Expression you do not have the right voice and if you cannot speak as an Arab about having Modernity about being contemporary about belonging to this century not to 200 years ago or 500 years ago that you belong now That the future is yours Then you do not have hope that you can be contemporary Then you are only living in a tent riding a camel and living in the desert if we only keep that Classical style. That's that's how it is. It's that's how it felt And and so I wanted that we try to find something that feels like it belongs to today And and I've been looking for it for that since then so There is it's it's not that I saw interesting shape sounds like I'd like to draw these it's it's a bit different from that This is one of my typefaces. This was made as like an installation at the Victoria State Library in Melbourne and and it says here al-hayat, which means that this is life and It is life and that the typeface cannot be divorced from the environment it lives in which is the same as I was saying before and and again there is that Correlation between what the design is saying and what the actual text is saying and where it can be used and what it will say and This is Kulloha hub, which is full of love, which is hopefully what we want life to be like so So this is sort of how I got into designing and and I've often been asked like Oh, but don't you want to design something else than Arabic like maybe Greek or Indic or like another exotic script and I always am looking at you like seriously like why and Because for me, it's it's not about collecting. It's not Pokemon go I'm not collecting pokemons, right It's it's it's not it's not like I can do Arabic and Indic and Chinese and Japanese look at me I can do great things. No, it's it's not that I I want better Arabic typefaces so that Arabic communication in the Middle East looks better I I don't care what happens in other countries. I care about my country. I'm like fuck it No, it's just sorry too many F words today. So So, yeah, so for me, it's it's not it's not designed for the sake of design It's it's it's more about what you want the typeface to do and and in my case, it's it's about dialogue it's about using typefaces to speak and to say things and and this is this is coming from From this person. This is the late Edward side. He taught at Columbia University. He was a Palestinian humanist and He spoke at my graduation from the AUB in Beirut in the year 2000 And and I'm gonna be reading to you some of what he said because it's still the most important speech I've heard in my entire life and I don't think anything any single event had ever influenced me as much as this guy and What he had said that we become today That's a ceremony to talk not about the clash of civilizations But rather than dialogue of civilizations that is a peaceful but critical dialogue between equals rather than a Belegrant screaming match that when we accept the differences that we are different that we can talk to each other It's okay to be different. We don't have to fight We just need to be able to talk and I think this translates. He's talking about politics I see that in politics in design and in everything that we can do it's too often that we look at the other the one who is different from us and we retreat into our shell and we Reject them, but we need to be able to coexist and and and so it's not about the clash It's about the dialogue and if we all need more dialogue In in this age and this was the year 2000. This was before September 11 This was before ISIS This was before all of the terrorist attacks happening in Europe It's it just keeps getting worse and worse and I do feel that The solution is never more bombing and more drones The solution is that we try to understand each other and take out the root of the problem not the symptom of it and so he talks about And he says that what we need to ask is who am I and what is my relationship to my background and tradition? And what is my relationship to other we need to be able to answer these questions And then these are questions not only to be asked by philosophers or political scientists But are the responsibility of every citizen no matter what profession or expertise he or she possesses That we cannot hide inside the profession and say I am a doctor or an engineer And all I want to do is to get on with my work. We all hide we all say no I'm only a designer and you know, maybe I vote and that will be the end of it But we cannot we cannot escape that we we cannot we are citizens first before we are anything else and And so so this has influenced my work because most of the work that I've done almost the majority of it has been about the relationship of Arabic and Latin and coexistence and harmony and dialogue between the different scripts so that you can put Them on the same page and not have a clash but actually two scripts that can come together in harmony and The first example of that was my kufia Which I designed that reading it was the first typeface with Latin and Arabic designed by the same person at the same time with a specific intent of harmony between the two and Again very heavily influenced by what Edward Said had said Because we need to accept that Arabic is different from Latin that Structures are different movement is different But we need to be able to find ways to get them to talk to one another and and and we can do that If we think of like type design today and non-Latin and all of that There are possibilities of how to combine and make multi-script families that are in harmony It's quite possible and it's been done and it is actually very trendy these days, but Back in 2003 it wasn't the case. This was very very early on and and and this is what I had tried that We can actually have a brochure with Arabic and English and not have them Fighting at each other and normally when you do that when you have Arabic and English or Arabic and French together The English or the French they look so much better than the Arabic because the Arabic is always a crappy font That you don't want to look at and you try to use as small as possible so that people don't notice how badly drawn it is But then it's it's it says something about you if your typefaces are so poorly drawn It's almost like you don't deserve better than that and that is what is so insulting about having such poor Arabic Typography that it's almost we don't deserve better that we are not better and and and you you know It's difficult for you guys because you guys have the better type than we do so you don't It's it's difficult to explain to people whose typography is amazing. Just how Horrible it is to not have decent typefaces to set your own language But but it is it is the case and and so this is what I was trying to do with Kofia so and Yeah, it's also my the only Latin I've ever designed so even though today I supervise Latin design I still don't design Latin because there are many people who do a better job than me So I'm not gonna waste my time. So you have to be efficient, right? so you have to accept that You know, there are more skilled people When it comes to Latin so and sometimes Arabic. I'm not saying I'm the best anyway, okay That would be like that's a good headline. Yes anyway, so so so that was what I what I did at at Reading and and straight after Reading I was I was offered at training and a job at line a type and I I When I got the offer I was actually in Vancouver. So I'm very far. It was at a type I and I asked John Francoise, what do you think they're offering me something and he was like he's someone who said this There are two gods in typography Herman's up and Adrian frutiger. They both work with line a type and Herman's up comes twice to the office And I was like, yes. Okay. So yes, that sums up basically so The reason why I mentioned this is Now we're gonna be talking a little bit. We're gonna be changing topics by the way quite a lot So I hope that's not too weird for you. But When I joined line a type I at the first conference that I went to after that It was a type I and Helsinki and and it was a little bit weird Some people in the in the industry Thought it was a weird thing It's almost like I gave up something by going to line a type like that This is not the right decision that I should have been an independent designer with my own foundry and and do it my own way And and you know go the way but but it was it was a good thing for me that I went to line a type they Hired a lawyer to keep me. They high applied for my visa twice supported me. I learned a lot I I go to work with many amazing people and and the most wonderful opportunities and And and one of them Being able to work with Adrian frutiger and having the possibility to do Arabic versions of his own typefaces or being able to actually work side-by-side with Professor Hermann Zapp and and to do three projects together and to design together and and this is for me Probably one of the best experiences I've ever had being able to work with him And you learn so much from a designer like that when you just sit next to them And you see how they see because often when we look at our legends and our designers And and you see their finished product You don't see them in the middle of the process and how they go about solving the problems And that sometimes is more interesting than the finished product because a finished product is a finished product But the process of how to approach design is something that you can take too many different projects There is more to learn there than in the simple finished version of the design process And and so it was amazing being able to work with him This is these are some of the typefaces that I designed While with the company so this is the frutiger Arabic. This is a hybrid between two styles in In Arabic a koufi and a nasch. I will mention why I'm talking so much about hybrids in a bit This is the noya al-Vetika Arabic again more nasch than koufi, but again hybrid between the two Universe next Arabic more koufi than nasch when again as a hybrid The next Arabic definitely more koufi more mechanical It's easier to get a match between an Arabic and Latin when you remove the pen influence and things go very mechanical Because the biggest difference coming in Latin and Arabic is from the movement of the pen in Arabic Is much more organic in Latin there is more of a repetitive rhythm and and that creates a slightly different feel in the script One of again, this is definitely way more koufi. This is the ITC handle gothic. This is from this is one of my latest releases And then in the pure nasch style. There's the Palatino Arabic that I designed with Professor Homan's app And then the Palatino song Arabic. I did more than this, but I'm not gonna show everything so otherwise we just sit here forever and So this is some of the the highlights of the typefaces Basically, my job was to look at my favorite of typefaces of our best sellers and then do an Arabic version of them Which which is really cool. So it's it's always fun to do that and and Good to see the different flavors of the typefaces and to get a sense of understanding of how they work and how you can get a solution for for you to be able to work with that and And and and the design at the end of the day is in the details It's it's the little intersections the little touches, but it's also very much in the structure and How the typeface is built The typeface is letter forms It's you have the skeletal system the backbone and then you have the meat on them the muscles and but the structure is really What makes you a human versus a Monkey and and so whatever meat you put on that skeleton if the skeleton is not a human The end result is not a human So it all boils down to that and there are different ways of looking at type design But I am from the school of thought that looks at structures movements pen movements rhythms rather than six and things that so the first basic ingredient is always the structure and how it moves and I've been also been asked this Why do you stay with monotype because people think that I am at the point where I can again have my own independent foundry and do it my way and and why do you do I stay with them and I've been with a company now between line it up, which is now monotype 11 and a half years It's been a long time and and they are a family to me now because I've left my family in Lebanon I also have family in the US and in Canada, but These are the people that I've spent my career with and I've learned a lot from them And they are also the home of my typefaces. So There is a sense of belonging in that sense that I want my babies to be in good hands. So I want to stay there But it is also a place where I've learned a lot whether it is in my five years that I spend doing marketing my Working with the colleagues across the different offices I always tell people that I will stay as long as there is something for me to learn and I keep changing jobs every few years. I think that's their strategy to keep me But it's it's been good and the reason why I mentioned this is And this is a bit awkward and and I hope I don't get heckled. Okay. So respectfully. Yes, that's what we agreed in the beginning so we've we've been The Things have been weird when it comes to the type industry and monotype in the last couple of years and we've been getting a lot of Tracks People have been sometimes correctly. So and sometimes not correctly. So very critical Openly or behind closed doors. Some of it is well grounded some of it is not and And I think it's a bit unfair Like any family we are not perfect that is the case in any organization and Humans are not perfect in any sense and every time you have a group of people with the more people the more imperfect Basically, so the imperfections compound one another But at the end of the day We are a small community and we are here for one another and monotype is not going anywhere and We don't want the type designers to go anywhere and I don't say this as a spokesperson for monotype I did not run this by any marketing person. So I'm speaking here speaking here as Nadine with an insider view And you can come up to me and we can talk afterwards as well But I think it makes more sense that we talk to one another rather than you know, hide on Twitter behind Twitter Handles and just lash out vitriol The similar as in politics. There is a lot of vitriol going around And there are two approaches to this There will be people who will come up and actually talk to us and say, you know, this is not really good Can we do something about this and then we talk and we try to fix this? And there will be people who will just go on Twitter and just complain or go somewhere else and complain But I will always prefer a more constructive attitude where we come together and we talk and it's totally okay to disagree, but I think there is Better results in in conversation rather than in grandstanding and there is too much vitriol to go around in such a small community anyway, so It makes more sense that we, you know, try to be a little bit more positive at the end of the day we live of one another and You know the e-commerce channels that we have are there to support the type designers who are actually independent so the health of the one depends on the health of the other and I think it makes sense that we talk more about that But one of the so in some cases like I said some of the criticism is you know valid like I said but Sometimes it's not and in those cases It's usually a problem of lack of understanding of the business of type design We live in a time where there has never been as many talented type designers Around the world as it is today I seriously doubt that there was ever this many talented people working in the type world seriously doubted but at the same time we are not Dedicating enough resources to discuss the business of type design the business of font licensing And what it means people who start in this field do not have anything to read much to understand How to set up an independent foundry? What does it mean to license? What do we need to discuss if we're signing a contract with a foundry? What should I have in this contract? It's not there and and and this is this is a shame and it needs to it needs to change so One of the one of the things that I wanted to talk about if you will excuse again another It was basically we're gonna talk about everything today except sex right sex and guns These are the only things we're not talking about in this presentation. Okay, so Yeah, we're doing like a full roundabout of everything that I'm talking about. It was just like everything I've ever wanted to say I apologize if this is annoying for anyone But okay, let's see. I'll find out on Twitter afterward So so something that we need to know about the type business is how to protect our funds. I Did something terrible the other day. I read the license agreement of another foundry I cheated I shouldn't have done that but I did and it's a very respectable Foundry with amazing work and I love these guys, but in their license agreement. There is no mention of trademarks So their license agreement with their designers, right? They don't mention the trademark at all ever like who owns the trademark It's the only thing that you can protect the only thing that there is no Contention about it's the name of the typeface, but there is no mention who owns it who fights to keep it who registers it Nothing no legal protection not at all. It's not even part of the conversation And I think that's the problem another problem. There was also no mention of copyrights. So we cannot protect Design as a copyright at least not in the US sometimes in Europe depends on the design of the typeface But it says that the typeface is not protected as a typeface We cannot protect the design, but you can't protect some of the data But then again in the license agreement there was no mention of who owns the data There is that you know, you need to say you are the owner of the design Yes, but what happens after that designer gives the phone data to the foundry who owns that data after if it's been You know run through production and work and all of that this needs to be discussed And we need to be aware that this is important for us to talk about Another thing which is always funny and and this has been doing the rounds for quite a while is royalties How do we calculate royalties? So again, I hope you are patient with this Ah before we get to that So like I said when I joined line of type the person who hired me is Bruno Steinart He's the previous managing director of line of type and he had this in his Anyone has seen this the garden of type presentation that he had given at a few conferences I saw him in Barcelona a few weeks ago and we were discussing was telling him about this thought and then we talked about But that and then he mentioned this and was like I'm going to quote you so now I am He says that type designers are often like the scribes. They love what they do But they are very involved in what they are doing They're not so much involved in the business aspect of typefaces and at the end of the day We pay the rent from our funds and there is no shame in wanting to look out for that There is no shame in talking about it. So We're gonna talk about a bit of math now. So We're not discussing the shape of the the dollar sign. We're gonna be discussing the actual dollars So what I have here is like four samples of how royalties are collected. I've sit in My grammar is fucked. So I've sat I've sat in panel discussions even at typecon where someone was saying I get 50% and the other was like Yeah, my royalties are 20% and then discussing 50% and 20% but the proper equation is 50% of something it's not 50% We need to know how to calculate and to understand what every equation means the first line Say you have you make you sell your license a typeface font and you get $100 So a hundred percent of that is $100 for you This is usually the case if you are an independent foundry and you are taking care of your own sales, right? So but that's $100 needs to pay for your e-commerce site any overhead costs legal costs credit card charges and time to support the designers and Sorry the clients and as a side note, I asked a colleague of mine We were discussing what's the funniest things that have happened in support. We had a client who had trouble Installing a typeface and he contacted our support and they told him like okay uninstall the font and then restart and install again And maybe it works and then he was like, okay, I have deleted my entire fonts folder. What do I do now? and and of course, you know the colleague was like So nice another one. There was a client who was unhappy with one of our funds that supported Cyrillic Because his expectation was that if you type in English the font should translate the text to Russian But our font was not able to do that. Therefore. He wants a refund and and so yeah So you have people like these know who will most likely vote for Trump anyways, but But you will have these people and you will need to talk to them So you need to decide as an independent foundry Do you want you know to talk to these guys or not or do you want to like outsource that you know headache? So but in any case you keep all of the money that you make Another version if you are if you own your own independent foundry and you will have a reselling Contract so for someone like with my fonts or any of the other e-commerce channels where you get Usually around 50% of the sale. So if you have $100 license fee, then you are getting $50 out of that but then you will have if you are a Designer who is licensing it gets more complicated who is licensing with Foundry and that foundry has a Reselling agreement with a sales channel like my fonts The the red bit in between parentheses. So the foundry will get 50% of the 100 They will get 50 and the designer gets 50% of that and they will get $25 or you have the For example like with more monotype you have 25% But then because we own the dice the channels then you get 25% of the 100 and you get $25 So of course you will think ah $100 is more than $25 is four times I will only want the 100 but that's not how it works because we also have to think of the market reach and we also have to think of direct versus indirect and many people actually have Something that mixes all of these models together So they will have a reselling agreement with one foundry with one sales channel And then they will have they will also have their own direct sales where they do their own support and all of that And we need to be able to understand the differences between direct versus indirect sales the difference between you know all of these Different terms and and also the two very important terms revenue versus end user price and user price is what the Client paid revenue is what the company made and so like you can see in the example where you are going through a foundry The foundry the end user price was 100 But the revenue for the foundry who is going to pay you licenses is actually only 50 So you always need to keep that in mind for me. It sounds very basic But I've also set with marketing people and sales people so I sort of picked it up from them But I think we should encourage people especially designers who are starting in this by those of us who have had experience in this to to to actually sit down and understand how they can make a living because we all want to be able to make a Living in type design. We don't want to have to do other jobs, right? and I think it falls upon us to educate the newer generations and to Write and talk as much as possible about how our industry works so that we can help people protect their intellectual property help them Do their best decisions decide on what is the best decision for them? This is not saying do this or that this is just this is the math and you need to decide what math works better for you How do you want to spend your time designing or doing customer support or a mix between the two? There is not one correct answer. It depends on the individual. That's what we need to understand and And that's how we need to what we need to try to support Especially because we have so many new designers coming and every year. There's more and more designers You know graduating from the different programs and and it's it falls upon us as a community to Formalize a little bit to talk about these things. It's not just the serif and where it came from It's the license and how you manage to get it as well So that's not a slogan, but I just made it up But anyway, so we also need to understand the difference between a foundry and a distribution channel and what it each one means and its obligations to you as an independent designer and again, we don't talk enough about these things and and we should especially Given the situation today of having so many foundries and so many funds and many people speak about like how do I make my Typeface visible? How do I stand out when there are thousands and thousands of funds out there? What do I do and and this is there is no one answer some people have managed to you know Make a name for themselves and and and others not and sometimes it's not the quality of the design That's that's the reality. It's not just how good you are as a type designer that decides how successful you are It's it's a combination of many things is the design and to the marketing And so we should also talk about the marketing and how we can talk about typefaces and inspire people because often What happens is that and we'll get to that in a bit when when clients come to us They want the most popular. They want the easy solutions. They're not willing to take risks But we don't want those easy solutions, right? We want people to experiment because we want to experiment and we want to push boundaries And we want to be able to educate our users And so we need to find ways of how to talk about type design beyond this simple We've done a specimen or we've done a micro site and this is it We we we need to find more ways of getting people to stop using the usual suspects It's it's in the best interest of all of us. I'm not saying don't use alvettica anymore. I shouldn't say that Definitely use alvettica, but you know, you understand it's we it's there's a whole world of typefaces available and sometimes the graphic designers are too conservative in their choices and and we need to be able to inspire them to try out different things and Yeah, so that's a section a bit about the business and then this is a bit which is what was advertised in the program So all of this was the introduction I'm half dead by now. So Yeah, it's jet lag is not so easy coming to the West Coast, but but there is this question of of design space some of you How many of you have heard about the controversy versus questions versus what else of infillism by show of hands Who is aware of the current conversation? Not enough. Okay, so there's Emigre one of the main designers that emigre was saying that we're not designing anymore because Everything has been done and now people are just filling in the gaps and it's infillism and then there was several replies to that one of them by Crisors be and then he's saying like no, this is an attack on our generation No, we are creative and you know, so there's been a lot of discussion about this and it is an interesting topic because are we We need to talk about this Are we just filling in the gaps and and is it very very important question because again We come back. Why are we designing if if the whole point of designing is to go to work and make Tweak of elvetica What's the point right? If if all that we do is push around a few nodes tweak a few things and pretend It's a new typeface and again, what's what's the point? Surely there is better things that we can do There is a less of a waste of time But if it is that we are trying something because there is something that we want to say that has not been said before And there is a very different story So it's not just the typeface is the approach to the typeface. It's the world it lives in but in any case we'll we'll get to that but But the question is are we really just filling in the gaps? Actually, this is not a good time So who feels that type design has become too restrictive that everything is just a copy of one another by show of hands Who thinks that okay who feels that there's a lot of creativity and innovation happening in type design today Okay, more hopeful crowd. Okay. Good. So very unscientific, but okay so Yeah, so so there are those who are hopeful and those who are not and and in my mind It's not the question is are we just filling in the gaps? It's What are we there are other questions we need to answer to be able to answer that question? What is the design conversation of today? Design conversation at least in my definition is when you walk in the street the billboards the books you buy from a library From from a bookstore or things you see in a library you go to a concert and there's a poster You go to a restaurant and there's a menu. There is a collective Design space that we are interacting with and this becomes part of our collective memory The same way that we know the show tunes of our favorite cash shows from the 80s or 90s or whatever we grew This is collective consciousness the work that we do the design that makes it to the street It's part of that design conversation because it engages with the public in something that is relevant to the way They are living typefaces that do not make it to that space are Existing for other reasons sometimes simply for the sake of existing sometimes because it's a niche project sometimes I'm not saying we don't do that. But anyway, but there is this design conversation. So where are we in relation to that design? Conversation, where are we in our understanding of what happens in other arts or what happens in politics? Or what happens in science or what happens in the psychology of today are people afraid are people happy? What do they want to say? What about social media this connected but not connected all of these things? Where where do we fall in that these new typefaces that we do are they part of that conversation or not? This is something that is always interesting for me It's always a question that I am asking and what is it that we are contributing is it needed Does anybody want this typeface that I'm drawing if nobody wants it then why am I drawing it? Is it just for fun? Is it just for it to exist? Is it why? Sometimes it's okay. It doesn't have to have a reason. Nobody ever has to use it. It's totally fine You decide but we need to ask these questions. There is not one right answer But we need to think of them and then when we're thinking of these things this new typefaces that we draw Are they adding a voice? Are we enabling someone to say something that way they were not able to say before if That is the case then even if it is similar to al-Vatika then maybe it's not a problem Then it's it's all about at least to my mind and you guys will have other answers, right? It's not just this is just what I think it's typefaces need to speak and that's my Whole view on things that words are meant to speak typefaces allow that and they are part of that conversation That's that's why typefaces need to exist. That's why we need to make them It's again. It's not Pokemon. It's they there is a purpose They are an ingredient and they will only come to life when someone has decided that this suits what they want to say so it is in that moment of choice that a typeface lives and That that for me is the critical question And so what what makes a good typeface and again many people will have different views Could be the craft there is one how well is it done the creativity? Is it pushing boundaries? Is it showing a design solution that nobody has said before has done before? The functionality is it working the performance is it working? Well, does it fit what it's intended for the personality? Which is the voice that it tries to do and I think on all of these the bit at least in my view sometimes in certain aspects of type design the creativity bit is the one which is a problem and and In many spaces where we if we think of a map of all the typefaces in Latin that exist We have congregations of typefaces that look very similar and those would be You know the workhorse some serifs and the workhorse serifs those typefaces that you can use everywhere When you look at that space is practically incest right at least that's how I see it Very little new DNA is coming into that room is one small space And we're getting more and more crowded and people are on top of one another and every time you move You hit another typeface. It there's a play a very famous play Egyptian one I will say it in Arabic don't freak out And then yeah because speaking Arabic in the US. This is seems gets you off planes. So excuse me So so the play is a guy is funny as a comedy anyway He goes into a sauna and and he doesn't have a glasses on and he goes and he's like feeling his way around and It's a sauna and people don't know wearing anything and so he says it was like a has this what does it has this what does it Which is I feel and I apologize. I feel and I apologize That's how he made his way around the sauna And so in a way the type scene in that small space of the work horses It is a little bit a has this what is it right and I never had to worry about this I design in a space that is practically Mars. It's almost uninhibited very few typefaces in Arabic exists whatever I draw is always different from anything else that ever happened before so I'm just relaxed And I don't have to worry but now I have a team that I need to supervise and now it's my headache as well and I Need to make sure that the typefaces they design do not look like things that existed before because I don't wonder we do that and They need to have an element of regionality There needs to be something unique in them and in that small space is very difficult to be unique So we're gonna come to that space later, but it is something to think about What do we do in a room that is fully crowded? Do we get people out of it or do we try to push the walls to become wider that there is something to To think about but having looked at what makes a typeface great and good What makes a great typeface in my mind is that side guys side guys is a German word It says the spirit of the age if a typeface is capturing that if it's able to speak to how we live today Then it has that side guys that makes it very special But then how does it become one of the greats? It's it's within this oxymoron It's side guys and timelessness at the same time a typeface that can speak to its generation But is at the same time timeless and how does that happen? It's like Shakespeare some words that were written 500 years ago still ring true Even in five centuries later and there are typefaces that are able to speak to every generation Because there is something in them that does that and that's what makes it one of the greats so The way I look at it and and I am governed by my very unique Experience of having not had to design Latin typefaces ever or only one time I graduated and I never do it again. Sorry Jerry So I've had to look at the relationship of Arabic and Latin like my entire career to date and The key is to understand how the typefaces move and it's in the movement and in the structure So my view of Latin has always been at least in recent years It's simply understanding how is that typeface moving and what structure is it built upon and that gives more liberation Because the moment we say I want to design a geometric Sonserif 90% of your design decisions have been made and you've drawn a room around yourself And that's it you're boxed in if you're same with humanists same with any of these categories that we have the moment You decide that your starting point is an existing category of design Then you are sitting in a room that is getting more and more crowded as you go along and so then in my mind That's not the right way to start You should look at movements or structures and first of course is the function What is the typeface supposed to do and then you look for the kind of structure and movement that gives you that and Then you design and then maybe you find yourself in a different space So for example When I am designing in Arabic these days I'm designing hairlines and even with the Latin we were basically drawing hairlines Even when the clients don't need them or don't want them because there's a clarity of structure that the hairline brings you that It takes away the decisions on how you modulate or how you treat the edge. It puts you in that very basically naked view of type design and and there is there is a liberation in that and so we Look first at the structure and then we dress it up with the stroke and we're looking at the movement. Is it fast? Is it solid? Is it? Slow is it energetic? Is it open? Is it structured? Is it organic? What kind of modulation do I want to put on that and what kind of contrast what kind of weight? What kind of treatment these are coming after but first you strip the typeface into its structure And then you try to build around it and then it's a little bit liberating. It's not the only answer Obviously, there are many things we need to take into account when we're discussing type design and how to design but this is this is at least my way of how I look at Arabic and When it comes to Latin like I said, I'm not designing Latin I'm only supervising and only recents recently. It's only been since October So I haven't had a lot of time to do that, but I am keenly aware that It's almost like this room that is crowded has a window and I'm sitting outside and I'm looking inside at the window and and so this is not the point of view of someone who is in that room who has to draw within that confined space this is just me looking from the outside and So What I tried to do because ever since I did the PhD I my answer to everything is first we research and then we talk so I I decided to look at the best of in 2014-2015 Everything that was almost everything from typo graphical and then the TDC winners and also the best of on my phones And I thought that bringing those three elements together Gives maybe a slightly Hopefully not comprehensive. I will never claim that An interesting view of what the industry thinks is interesting in terms of its output and Then to put them into categories based on movement sort of so this is this is what I What I have done in the first two categories. This is normal This is the sands as we know it. These are typefaces that Are the work horses. This is What we expect this on set if to look like Very interesting designs very interesting. So I'm not gonna talk about any of them and there's like 140 typefaces. I maybe know the names of five of them. So please don't ask me that one That was whatever. I will not know how to answer so anyway So but these typefaces like I said they they are the work horses and in case you're interested because I didn't really Highlighted things that are in black and white are mostly from typographic Everything that has this kind of blue is my fonts and then the colors that are not in these two Usually are the TDC winners because there you don't need to color coordinate. So So this is this is sort of a view of the work horse on setups that have been highlighted in 2014 2015 and You know, you can draw your own conclusions of what is going on in that space Interesting thing of this entire exercise is the fact that there were very few overlaps in the typefaces from all these lists There wasn't a lot of overlap between the winners the typographical and and the my fonts ones. So We this is also something to think about the setups again is the work horses of setups that are just you know the At least what I think in my head. This is by my category again very Unscientific and it took one hour to do all of this. So it's not like it's not a PhD. Okay, so don't judge me if you don't agree so please and and so so this is this is again, like I said, it's Everything is there. This makes sense once you see what comes after and So this is some of the examples and then there's the friendlies The friendlies could be serifs or some serifs, but there is something cuddly about them There is something in the movement something in the curves that makes you want to hug the typeface It's a little bit different So if a client wants to come to you and like our personality is very friendly get me a typeface that reflects this friendliness This would be some of the candidates for that Like I said, it could be serif could be some serif but there is some quality in it some openness some friendliness Some more friendly than others some friendly in different kinds. There's the friend that hugs you There's the friend who smiles to you. So there's different versions of it, obviously But there is and as you can see, I mean, it's not one style But but there is something interesting about these designs and there's been more and more of them in the last decade or so You don't find many friendly typefaces if you look 200 years ago, it just didn't seem to be that way and Then there's the unexpected families unexpected families is where like One at least one member of the family is suddenly looking a little bit different. So Basically, for example, what you see with the with the Gilson You know, you have the in line and then with the other one I'm God knows how many styles and with these ones It's almost like you take the decision out of the graphic designers hand Like usually they need to bring many styles together and coordinate so that they have, you know Some different typefaces that work together nicely This kind of typefaces have already taken that shortcut like, you know what? We'll just do it for you so they have all of these different styles that work together this is also something that has been happening a lot lately not so much before and Before they used to be separate typefaces now They all come as part of the same thing and some of them are like really cool So it like for me at least personally, it's always very exciting when I see these kinds of designs you notice like the Graded one forgot the word. This is where the jet lags in Anyway, so this style is very trendy on my phones, but it's not on typographic yet. So this is what people are buying and Anyway, so I like you see here. You have, you know slabs you have some service You have scripty stuff you have condensed things all of them in one typeface family It's quite interesting and it's also versatile of the type designer to be able to design and all of these styles together So so again, this is quite interesting as a sort of a trend of things that are happening The corner is a typeface that winks at you So normally we are drawing and you are moving But then when you have that corner as part of your design element, it's almost like stop and look at me That's and then wink. So that's sort of what these typefaces are doing and so there is some sort of abrupt change in movement that something different is happening and then you will have that corner and These typefaces are showing especially that one over here Quite a lot of you know Interests in in that so it's part of the design language in these cases not as much the experimental This is my least favorite and I when I say I want more experimental designs in my head What I am thinking of is typefaces that can be workhorses But have experimented and found a new solution so that we can have a workhorse without copying something else in this case the experimental is like Most of the times is like deconstructing the structure and sometimes you end up with things that look a little bit strange You need them because sometimes you need a typeface that looks strange, but in some cases. Yes in some cases No, so it's a little bit of Here and there mixing of things these kinds of typefaces will be more difficult to use But then we also need them and they also exist and there will always be experimental typefaces and and that's that's also Okay, and that's quite good and we need that in any case so Yeah, so this is part of that and and You see immediately the difference in flavor when it is experimental from my phones versus experimental from something else And then there's this one also which is like super super super experimental And I don't even know how this thing would be typeset in a font, but anyway, it's interesting. So The wild is Experimental pushed all the way to the edge and then the letter forms are not looking almost like letter forms anymore It's just an extreme version of the experimental not the first one in color not so much the broken is is a bit Difficult to find the words to fit this one, but basically it's one where the movement does not continue So the movement is broken not the typefaces the typefaces are fine So is the movement in specially is that it's like you have like vertical strokes and that repeating rhythm So it's not like you are writing, but you have like one two three. It's it's very It's almost like you're driving and you keep hitting the pedal the brakes So but again, this is gorgeous by the way I'm not it's not anything against it. It's quite quite nice The brush is in my head John Downer So this is what you expect John Downer to do and and this is this is where things start to become very exciting in terms Of design like from this onwards There's the brush movement. There's a lot of speed. There's a lot of freedom There's a lot of power and energy and it's really really exciting especially once you start to have all of these unexpected families that are based on brush and this is yeah, it's it's really Really interesting what is going on here and this stuff Sometimes it feels to me that we as type designers have our noses up like no It's not a set if personal set if this is like script like it's a little bit of a lesser kind of design but this stuff is really hard to draw and and is unbelievably Gorgeous and most of the things that I get excited about from new designs is usually in this kind of category And and this stuff manages to catch the zeitgeist the spirit of the time much more than than what is there before In terms of this one, this is a controlled movement so we're thinking of calligraphy, but then there is a more controlled movement to it so that the You see the repetition. It's almost like you didn't write very quickly and We compared it to the one that comes after so you see that rhythm. No, it's it's within that kind of controlled movement Some more controlled than others, but it's almost like the person who wrote because this is for writing Was taking their time and was doing things with a lot of attention The uncontrolled is is not the uncontrolled is going more free in terms of Where you put the stress the kind of movement and the speed within which the letter forms are drawn And this is quite interesting because again, it's giving a different flavor and some are more uncontrolled than others The lush is Gorgeous curves basically, you know, I don't know how to explain this phenomenon But these curves are always very sexy. I don't know why but Maybe someone should should study that. I don't know about me but but there is again this this sense of refinement and this kind of quality that is very interesting and then they were gonna cupcakes so so these ones are Basically, it's Instagram phones. It's it's like things that you can find on hipster I don't know restaurants and you know very very 2016 kind of look When you go to a cafe and you get organic You know cupcakes that have been farmed from eggs that were in the backyard and you know The wheat comes from the farm in the street next door, you know, that kind of thing But the typefaces are gorgeous. This is not to say anything about the typefaces But it's that kind of there is it. I don't know. I don't know how to explain But but this is a phenomena of today this kind of visual and and it's there and these typefaces are Extremely extremely popular on my phones that the reason I say this I mean there are all the time in the top 50 you'll get tons of these typefaces the reason I say this is because there is something to learn someone is looking for this language this voice that these typefaces have Someone is looking for them when the question is someone who is looking for that voice when they want to set if design How does it set if look in this kind of voice or how does it so set if look in that kind of voice I It's open for interpretation, but but there is something to learn from these and and so this is sort of the review of What what these typefaces are looking like and and so the question is is our design space crowded It's yes and no in some areas. Yes It's really really crowded and it's you know You move and you're already another typeface if you push it up two units It's this typeface push it down five units is this other typeface and then you're thinking like okay So maybe four units so yeah in that case. Yeah, we really are drawing and like you're always afraid like oh my god We don't want to copy anything like this check and it's difficult But at the same time and and looking at these typefaces. There's a ton of creative work that is happening unbelievable creativity Gorgeous design It's really amazing. And so the question is Can we bring that skill and that craft and that originality to the crowded space that we have? Is it possible to to understand what graphic designers are looking for? Because sometimes it feels that what we think is right is not always what our Customers think is right and we need to understand what they are looking for and We also need to see where we look for inspiration and and some people will look in specimens Some people will look at street signs. Some people will look at You know shop signs whatever it is Each one of us will find inspiration somewhere But the idea is that this small space that we Operate in needs to expand and it will only expand when we push those walls to make more room for Experimentation and it's only through experimentation by being bold by trying out things by doing hybrids by Being unexpected it doesn't have to be a formula type design is not a formula We don't have to go by if it's this style It has to be like this try and if it works it works if it doesn't work we fail and it's okay to fail You do many typefaces some of them will work and other was not but but but the idea is that we need to try and and we Cannot you know sit and complain or like take it to personally or whatever it is the There is quite a lot of us and the design space if it gets too crowded Then there is not enough space for all of us and that would be a shame And so together I think all of us we we need to you know Put our hands together and push those walls like I don't know if you've seen it like in Japan That someone got stuck under a train and all of the passengers came and they pushed the train to get the guy out This is what we need to do We push the walls each in our own way until we get that space to be bigger and and the source of inspiration Will be whatever you think it to be and my answer is this one. So thank you Thank you As always I spoke too much and we have a reception and we only have 20 minutes to what do we do? Okay, a few questions. Okay, so and we have two mics you need to come up to the mic and We'll take turns If you really want the drinks we can just have one or two questions I mean, it depends it's up to you I wanted a long queue enable we started late and I always speak too much so sorry for that So anyone wants to ask anything? Or just say anything or tell anything or complain or like vote Trump Thank you So John so Mike one will please Yeah, there's a post yeah I'm just curious to put together the parts of your talk and imagine using some of the typefaces particularly in the last sections You were showing For the political messages you were talking about in the beginning that would change the discourse Yeah, that would be very effective. That would be told it. Yeah, that would be thank you. Yeah, I mean we We all need to see applications of what we can do and how we can do them and yeah, that that's another exercise I yeah any any other question So we stay with Microsoft Microsoft Mike one. I see Simon Well, they are neighbors Hello. Hi. I'm so I almost jumped up and clapped when you were saying if you start from saying I'm going to design a geometric sans-serif. You've already put yourself in the crowded room So I was really thrilled you said that but then you introduced a whole bunch of categories Yes, yes, and so I thought well if someone says I'm going to design an organic cupcake font We have the same problem We have a tendency to categorize. Yes a human tendency. Yeah, do you think there is an approach we can take to pushing the walls that doesn't involve Categorization. Yeah, it's a good question. So John always has good questions Yeah, so it's in in the In this review what I was trying to do is look at the kinds of movements of controlled versus uncontrolled to understand What is actually going on but that is something that is like post Design stage, right? This is an understanding of what has already been done So the approach if we want to design for example, we had a project that I'm working on with a team And I never let them say the words Geometric sans-serif like no, we're not saying that and that's not what we are doing And so we we talk about the typeface in terms of like, okay It needs to be serious or it needs to have a very solid construction. Therefore We don't want the transitions to be, you know rounded we want a more angular transition It needs to be like this. Therefore. We need it to be, you know, this it needs to be wide because it needs to So we start to make the design decisions based on what the typeface needs to be and the personality rather than Is it a geometric sans-serif or a humanist or a grotesque? So it's simply Trying to find the right adjectives and I don't know if it really works or not this approach But we we need to yeah, we need to try and and sometimes Yeah, just forget what we know forget all of it and because Catherine actually asked me one time if the piano playing affects my design and setting her You know that movement needs to be effortless and all of that But there is something in piano which is similar to this You need to learn the notes and then you need to unlearn the notes You need to forget to read the notes and you just play and your hands will know what to do and I think we have So many skilled type designers who have internalized type design they understand what makes a letter form work and what doesn't and so if they Break those boundaries. That's the thing which is exciting because they will inherently know what makes a typeface work But then if they start from a different starting point then maybe the solution will be a little bit better So if they unlearn what they know and then they sit and try to draw But starting from a different source of inspiration and maybe I don't know and I don't know the answer more than that Any any other question? Yes, please I don't know if you would call this a trend or if it's just kind of what I'm into But it seems like there are a lot of movements to try to Recreate like people's handwriting as typefaces or to restore You know some old metal type case that one guy found in his basement No, I'm wondering if you see those kinds of projects as creative steps forward or is that looking backwards and actually not creating anything new? right So it's it's a little bit of romanticizing type design if it's someone you loved and loved a lot or someone you respected and You can recreate their typeface your connection to that handwriting is emotional It doesn't it could be that the guy has a crappy handwriting But you do it because you have a connection with that person It's almost like keeping part of them alive at least in the typographic sense So in that you have that emotional connection and that is a valid source of approach anyway But that handwriting is it something that can fit a purpose? That function is simply to be to replicate Typographically digitally someone else's handwriting the moment it does it you're done So it could be that it's a typeface that no one will ever ever want to use so but that's the kind of exercise That doesn't have to relate to zeitgeist it it exists because of that emotional attachment Same thing like if it's an old case of metal type and then you digitize it again it's like a bit of romanticism and and In some cases it works in some cases not I tend to not be romantic typographically speaking In some cases yes, but not not not not work wise So it we all bring our different points of views and I think The best thing is that we don't have to have the same point of view. Otherwise, we'll do the same thing so we always need someone to do other kinds of work and and someone who is interested in Historical sources that have no space in today's world But the fact that they've designed this typeface means that this typeface exists for the next generation because they might want to use it So there will be those people I'm not one of them But they need to exist and and I think it's the plurality of all of us That is the solution and and us bringing something we want to say there is not one way forward. It's just Yeah, a bit more experimentation at least my view more experimentation and then Yeah, just supporting one another I guess. Thank you Any other question? The questions are good. So don't be shy. It's okay Anything else going once going twice Okay, going three times. It's it's reception time. Okay. Thank you all so much. Thank you You