 Okay, so if we go with the presumption that it's all in, I'll start us off and give us a sense of and I'll say there's a real possibility that something didn't make the show, but we want to tell you what we saw going in and then when we went in and how it went and if you missed something on there, that's okay, at least you understand what we were doing, you'll understand. That's what we'll do. We'll start up and then I'll say, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then I'll throw it over to you, Greg, and you explain what we're going to do. And then guys, if you want to add whatever as we get it in, but I'll frame it and then we can go from there. Yeah, and explain what each person did, how we started one with the other and the plan was to end up with chase catching. Yep. I think it's a good opportunity for people to see teamwork and how interrogation works best because I always say, you know, if this works best when we coordinate first. All right, ready? Yeah, here we go. I'm Scott Rasmussen, a Body Language Expert and Analyst and I train law enforcement in the military in interrogation and body language. And I created BodyLanguageTactics.com with Greg Hartley. Mark. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language, I help people all over the world to stand out, win trust and gain credibility every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7, Chase. I'm Chase Hughes. I'm a bestselling author in persuasion, influence and people reading. I did 20 years in the US military and nowadays I'm a trial consultant and I teach all of those skills to the general public and law firms around the country. Greg. I'm Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor. I've written 10 books on body language and behavior, created this course BodyLanguageTactics.com with Scott that has become the number one online learning for body language. And I spend most of my time on Wall Street and in corporate America. Excellent. All right. Well, today we're going to talk about our experience on the Dr. Phil show. And we're going to talk about the guy that we ended up interrogating on that show, the guy named Tarek. What was his last name? Menturi. Tarek Menturi. Okay. And so we're going to go through, they initially sent us a video and showed us the parts they want us to break down and say, here's what we see in this guy's body language, just like we do here on the show. And we took a look at that. And we started to talk with Dr. Phil and we said, why don't you let us talk to this guy for a few minutes? I think we may be able to get a little bit more information out of him because that's, it looks to us like he's holding stuff back and we may be able to get some stuff out of him that you may not be able to get, or the show may not be able to get from what we're telling you. So Greg, why do you explain what we did? Yeah. So what we did was we came up with a plan that involved all four of us. And I get to be the bad guy. I get to be the guy that opens with a really hard gouge. And I go at this guy pretty hard early. And then Mark steps in and of course, Mark sounds like he's going to rescue this kid to him. He's looking and going. And then Mark, of course, does not rescue. And Mark just compounds and twists a little more. And Scott steps in and Scott had introduced us to him. So he thought, okay, at least I have a rescuer here. And Scott then went and poked him really, really hard. And then Chase was standing there waiting for him at the end of the run. And he was thinking, okay, finally, finally, finally. And Chase was not his friend either. Chase was not aggressive. Chase plugs some things into his head. We're not going to tell you what they are. You watch it on Dr. Phil's probably the best place. But Chase did some really good interrogation close. So you'll see that and understand we had a plan and each of us play a role. And we had well scripted that out. And guys, I've done a lot of interrogations. I've done a lot of interrogation training. This is one of the smoothest coordinated orchestrated approaches I've been part of. So thank you for being part of that with us. That was a great one. Thank you. That was a blast. All right. So let's take a look at the we've chopped us down to I think five or six videos. And we'll look at these one at a time and tell you what we saw in those. And one of the things that showed us why we can get more information out of them from his personality type. You just moved to a different part of town. Got it. Yeah. So would you say then that your business has been keep trying to look over at the other screen, if you'll mind? Would you say that your business has been successful? My business has been very successful. You've gotten. All right. Chase, what do you got? This was the most incredible thing. I've not been this excited about a behavioral analysis clip for a while. This is an identical replication of what Richard Nixon did when he backed away from the podium and he said, I am not a crook. And then he folded his arms up. It's a perfect thing. So there's two things involved there. We have a little backward body movement called the postural retreat. And we have that arm folding, which is great behavior. And it's indicative of deception, according to me. And he ends his statement with some chin boss movement, this little grief muscle right here, what some people call it, that we express grief with. And there's lip compression at the end. This told me that while we're interrogating him, he is hyper aware of how he appears to other people socially. So he wants the background of the room to have fresh paint. Everything in there is very clean and tidy. He wants his business to look good. So I know with my approach that I need to structure my questions a certain way. Everyone's got different theories about interrogation stuff. My personal thing that I follow is if a person knows they're being interrogated, I'm not doing a good job. And I'm going to need to use that psychological part that I've just learned from this clip to ask him questions a different way. Scott, what do you got? All right. I built my whole theory and approach to this guy on the on, I feel like he's a psychopath. Most people are in the impression. Let me give you a little background on that. Most people are in the impression. If you were to give a psychopath a knife and send him to a room, he's going to start stabbing everybody or chopping everybody up. That's not so. That's not so. There the thing with psychopath is there's a part of your brain called the amygdala. That's part of your brain that turns on fight or flight. It deals with empathy and sympathy and those types of feelings. Usually when you're dealing with a psychopath, the amygdala are either missing, they're damaged or something's just not right about them. You can tell that's what's going on in an fMRI machine in a study and when you study their brain. So there's that. The things that started flipping me little cues that we may be dealing with a psychopath was his narcissistic approach to his answers and the way he acted and his behavior, going to what Chase said as well from all the things from the way he looked, his concern about the way he was accepted socially. Everything about him told me that. For example, when she asked him to stop looking at the screen, to stop looking at himself because he's looking at himself and not only does she when she tells him to stop to look back at her and look back at the other monitor, he keeps it takes him a second to come off of that monitor and look at her. That's number one. And then number two, we see him grooming. Greg's got to got it. He's going to talk about that if you mentioned about this eye thing he's doing, he's pushing on his eye. He's trying to make sure he looks good as he's looking at himself. We don't see any concern with him about what's going on. We see no concern whatsoever because when you're dealing with psychopaths and this is just my feelings, this is what I believe I'm not saying that he is. They're not worried about about what's going to happen to him because they can't. They have no feelings. They have no empathy. They can't say here's what's going to happen and here's how it's going to affect me and I'm going to feel this way. You won't see that on most of the time that as you go along and they'll learn to mimic people's emotions, they'll mimic your emotions, someone that you know that maybe when they'll start acting like you do or they'll act like someone else does. I'll get in depth as we go along because I think in my opinion that's what we're dealing with. I could be completely wrong but I think that's what we're dealing with and then I'll talk about the differences in a sociopath and psychopath as we go along as well. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so I always say people say you're not a psychologist. You don't know what a psychopath is and I say I'm not a botanist but I know what poison ivy is. If you're touching enough you know what something is. So Scott, I wouldn't apologize for what you're seeing but for me this was immediate. I knew this guy has a problem. You can see him doing what I call request for approval as he's constantly talking. His brow is up and he's trying to get you to say it's okay. Kind of like a child who knocks over the cookie jar and then you look at him and say did you break the cookie jar and he goes no it was the cat until you say okay and then a little brow drops. He's doing that but interestingly we have a dominant eye. Anybody who shoots knows dominant eye is where you get your data intake and you use it that way. This guy's dominant eye is shrinking as he gets more and more duress and I knew it would show up on the show and I knew I had a brand I could put in his head that he could not escape. So when we talk about and I agree with you Chase when I'm usually interrogating I don't want you to know you're interrogated but when I am approaching you and I'm trying to pitch everything and set it up so that when he is getting interrogated at the end he doesn't realize it the harder I am the better it is. So I plugged into his head early look that dominant eye is shrinking and that's an indicator that you don't like what you're hearing and you're trying to escape it. So he did brow rise dominant eye intake issue and then when he's when she said is your business successful or words to that effect he said my business is very successful and he uses that same speech pattern later when he's deceptive again and then the other final one is watch his head shrink down into his body as his neck disappears and that's threat response as he knows he's in a bind and this guy's business was not successful and we you can go pull his financials and all that and it's pretty easy to figure out but his neck was going down in his body as he tried to protect his throat he may define his business as successful in some other way but it wasn't successful financially. So that's the beginning I left him with that brand around his eye and you'll see if you watch the show I'm on him pretty hard about that because I know that leaves a mark on his psyche so that he can't relax. Mark what do you have? Yeah so here's the way I'm thinking about it. So he's being interviewed here by an interviewer researcher producer from you know who works in LA. So a really good people person it's that person's job to relax this person to get them open and talking and feeling good and giving a good performance for the for the camera essentially. So I'm thinking well what are his stress levels when you've got somebody who's a really good people person around you? Well we see an opening sequence here of a elliptic finger touches the eyelid as as Gregor says that stress then he takes a drink from his bottle all of that in quick succession all of those potentially pacifier gestures including this big like almost baby pacifier that he that he has and think about that there's there's a lot of infantile juvenile behaviors that we'll see cropping up during this but we've almost got this kind of baby's bottle which is both a pacifier and a blocking device something for him to put between himself and you the audience or the interviewer. So that's instantly you know pretty important from my point of view in a situation where which is totally designed for stress to be reduced and relaxation his stress is already very very high and then he ends with that arm cross there at the end that's like four quick images in quick succession of stress and pressure and wanting to put a barrier between himself and the audience there. So again what I'm thinking in terms of the interview interrogation that we do later on I'm thinking okay this person is potentially quite easy to heat up doesn't take much to heat them up there that's where I'll leave that. Let me add one point because Mark I think you hit it when he's pressing his eyebrow he doesn't understand that brow is not higher this one is lower and so he's trying to groom constantly to fix that eyebrow and we see that in real time face to face. I want people to pay attention to in the show what happens is he has an excuse for that. Now to Scott's point there we've got somebody here who has an excuse for everything that it's always somebody else's or something else's fault it's never his fault it's never his problem. So again to Scott's point of what is the personality type we have here we see that an indicator there in the show of it's always somebody else's fault. And we get more in-depth into that in just a few minutes. Yeah of course you're a killer. And back to the eye part there's a part in there where I think I'm talking and then Greg jumps up his hind end again with the about that. So it's important to keep in mind as you've watched you probably watched that if you had a chance to watch it again make sure you pay attention to when he does that and what he says when he's doing it because it really in nerves him. So anyway just wanted to throw that part in. Yeah guys I'm not generally a jerk but there's a time to be a jerk. Well that's that's the thing that's the thing about an alpha you can't you're not always a jerk but when you are you're good at time to be one yeah well it was a time to be one so. I see you just moved to a different part of town got it. Yeah so would you say then that your business has been keep trying to look over at the other screen if you'll mind would you say that your business has been successful? My business has been very successful. Um you've gotten good. All right just good. Yep yeah there we go. Yeah there is somebody that made allocations that you did that there were fake reviews or something tell me about that. Pretty much all the women are saying that just because they cannot fathom that I actually have people who like me I guess they just think everyone's going to agree with them. I mean if you have a bad experience at a restaurant and you write a two-star review does that mean everyone's going to write a two-star review? No okay so they're accusing me of fabricating reviews. I guess they think I have enough time in my hands to create 300 different gmail addresses and write five-star reviews despite the fact that when you click the profiles you'll see they have pictures of other people and activities of dozens of other reviews in other places which kind of implies they're real profiles but you know some people are just hard headed and believe what they want to believe like these women hence why they don't believe my allegations either my side of things I should say that's great I love your passion love your energy so so thank you yeah she does such a good job of keeping him fired up like he's doing the right thing all right well on this one I'm going to go first I usually don't talk a lot on these when you deal with psychopaths that's my favorite thing in the world so I have a little bit more to add some of these as we're talking about him going back to Mark's point a minute ago before we started this one it's always somebody else's fault that's the thing with psychopath you can the and the what I'll turn the clinical narcissist you can't you can't even brush up against that ego without really firing him up and getting them in attack mode just what we see here he goes as far as using his pronouns the them and they he uses the word they six times he's he's totally trying to destroy the credibility of of these women who are accusing or if his accusers by calling them and they and he calls them them once and they six times it says the women or those women two times one time each of those as we go through these we see 22 different times expressions in this in this in this short little little clip as we look at this we're seeing it's a combination of disgust and disdain as he goes through if you watch you'll see these this part of his some of it's comes from just normally talking when you talk you'll see those things go up well his but his disgust and disdain for women as mark points out in the show is over the top unbelievable and we see his nostrils flare up a little bit with shows he's getting fired up as well as you get a little bit angry trying to control that anger so he doesn't start going off and becoming the monster that that I would assume this type this personality type would be not saying he's a monster I'm just saying I would assume in this situation then and as you see these a lot of people are going to think this guy is is autistic he's not autistic don't mistake what you're seeing and what you've heard before about about autism and not in someone who's autistic who's on the spectrum because we're not seeing that we don't see a whole a whole lot of eyebrow movement which is one of the most things things you look for when you're dealing with autistics which is one of the things I learned from Greg because when you when you're dealing with psychopath that for example if you're at a bar and someone starts staring at you from across the bar and they don't stop staring at you and you keep looking over there still looking at you for me and you it would be weird it's an odd feeling it's it's tough to do that but it doesn't bother them that's why you hear people they felt like I was the only person in the room because they don't stop staring at you because they don't understand that it makes you feel weird and they should feel weird about it because they don't because they can't they don't have the empathetic tools to make that happen for the whole time he's blaming women and I think Mark's probably going to go off on that in a couple minutes but that's this whole thing there's always you're dealing with an ego when you're dealing with psychopath and so he's talking about women the whole time and how it's their their fault and their problem not him it's not him so Greg what do you got yeah so let me also backtrack just a bit we had the luxury of talking to one of his accusers for an hour and spending real time asking her questions reading her body language baselining her and she was 100 believable we had zero doubt that what she told us happened now and this comes into play very nicely as mark catches him as he's looking for help and mark catches him to talk about it but he clearly shows disgust for women anytime he brings it up he wrinkles his nose that is not a classic male gesture except for in disgust and that's one of the basics one of the seven that I have learned did not come from mechman originally came from Darwin and ekman added to those which is pretty interesting he also then sneers and we typically think of a sneer is showing a canine right that's primates show canines when they're when they're either terrified or they're angry but he does that he illustrates with his hands and Scott ear point when somebody is autistic they don't close space is what I've typically noticed and this being the billboard of emotion and the way to communicate with people they don't use it as much they also don't use their hands and engage you as much so I don't think he's there then he starts to scratch his head as an adapter to release nervous energy when he gets to these Gmail accounts and I think he does something that we would typically call an embedded confession and that is I don't have time to make up 300 Gmail accounts well probably he does because we know his things are not going well so he sets mark up nicely to be there to comfort him after I tear into him pretty good so you want to mark you want to go next and talk about what you did with that yeah so look if you end up in a interview with me I'm going to be all over your generalizations because from my point of view the way you generalize the way you take the universe and boil it down into something that's that's manipulate that you can move around and manipulate that's a good map as to how you see the world and how you think it should function so whenever I'm talking to to anybody in a professional way I'm trying to work out what what do they generalize around what do they boil stuff down into well here's the generalizations we get from him pretty much all the women so we've got all the women so he's not very detailed he's not like well this woman whose name is ex she said this and this woman you know she said this her name was this name and it's it's it's pretty much all the women and I guess they think so the stress is on they think and right at the end we get these women the stress is on women not these women the stress is on the woman part of it then alongside that alongside the the the call out to women we do get the disgust yeah we do get this lip pinning up to show the canine there which I would put in the area of contempt or more importantly disdain now let me tell you the difference between contempt and disdain and why I make it disdain is because of these generalizations of all women disdain is something around a social group if I if I'm disdainful of of you uh you know the the watcher the listener here it's that I don't think you belong in our group you shouldn't be part of our society so disdain is very powerful because if if the society disdains you or an individual with power disdains you it means they're going to cut off your ability to live in the group you're dead basically you're thrown out of society I would suggest that his mindset is that women in general don't fit in society they shouldn't be part of his group his society as he sees it so that's why I would suggest we get something I'm starting to see from him at this point I'm going we've got something misogynistic here quite extreme quite extreme and so that's why in the interview in the interrogation my mind is going I'm going to hit that I'm going to hit that hard because we might get him to show some agreements with that we might get him uh really showing himself around that and certainly it's embedded enough and it's deep enough that if I call that out to him he's going to feel very much psychologically seen and again that's going to ramp the pressure on him the psychological pressure of the situation upon him so that that's my take on that chase what do you got so we see a pattern starting here where he's showing contempt towards women and he's using his water bottle as a pacifier every time things start to get difficult that's all I'm going to say for this you guys covered a whole lot and we'll go to the next one lovely great yeah there is somebody that made allocations that you did that there were fake reviews or something tell me about that pretty much all the women are saying that just because they cannot fathom that I actually have people who like me I guess they just think everyone's going to agree with them I mean if you have a bad experience at a restaurant and you write a two star review does that mean everyone's going to write a two star review no okay so they're accusing me of fabricating reviews I guess they think I have enough time in my hands to create 300 different gmail addresses and write five star reviews despite the fact that when you click the profiles you'll see they have pictures of other people and activities of dozens of other reviews in other places which kind of implies they're real profiles but you know some people are just hard headed and believe what they want to believe like these women hence why they don't believe my allegations either my side of things I should say that's great I love your passion love your energy so so thank you yeah they were good all right there's no misunderstanding um so she she let me text her it was a long text she was explaining um you you felt my arm am I chained for split second this is how it happened um but she didn't believe me she basically her reply was basic body mechanics would imply otherwise because she thought I was standing so she thought it would have been my private but I was on my knees and I even said to her video the same exact video I'm about to show you um in which I show her the table it's at the lowest level I have knee pads below there they're not just there for fun proving that I'm on my knees half the time therefore it's possible you could feel another part of my body I mean she didn't see anything either she didn't turn her head for a split second she she didn't hear me unzip she didn't hear me drop my shorts which she would have heard because it's a quiet massage room um so those those arguments are my favorite but she just wasn't buying it she's gone on the biggest g hot ever posting one star reviews on all right mark what do you get yeah um so I didn't see uh she didn't see anything either on that phrase we see him retreat right back uh and a full kind of turtling gesture there so uh a minimizing behavior essentially making himself smaller uh it's something we instinctually do so the predator will pass on by it's our most effective cheapest way not to get attacked is to minimize and make ourselves smaller and stiller is part of the um freeze uh aspect of a freeze uh flight fight faint so that instantly signals to me there's a lot of stress under she didn't see anything either which signals to me this is a point this is something we should dig into because there's some real fear for him around this area this is the exact part of the story that we should dig into and he says well you know his the argument is in his favor what I think it should be about evidence or facts not necessarily argument so again it feels to me like he's on his back foot around that that the the big thing I want to point out here is this use of my my private so we're into I would say quite infantile juvenile language in my private singular um so so I think I think he's taught when he says my private I think he's specifically talking about his penis I think that's what he's talking about and yet he doesn't say it there was this chance yeah right right and I think to to what chase might if I were chase I think chase would be calling that distancing behavior I could be wrong um but putting my my chase hat on I reckon that's what I'm seeing but I'm going to wait for chase to tell me whether I'm I'm right on that one uh so so chase what do you go that is distancing behavior absolutely and distancing means uh is a couple of things will tend to soften the severity of crimes instead of murder we'll say hurt instead of steel we might say take and sometimes we'll completely omit a victim's name so when somebody says like I did not have sexual relations with that woman that is a form of distancing or psychological distancing and I group those together so one thing that innocent people will do two things actually they'll make a strong confident positive denial strong confident positive denial that nothing happened and they will also display anger that doesn't typically dissipate over time and this is based on research from john reed it's back in in the old uh read manuals and I thought it was interesting when he said the knee pads aren't just there for fun which could imply that is one reason but maybe not another there might be two reasons there and he's saying she didn't hear me on zip she didn't hear me drop my shorts is not clearly saying that the person is a liar which is a humongous red flag to me calling if someone's saying something it's untrue it's totally acceptable for us to call them a liar and guilty suspects tend to focus on evidence or the lack of provable things in a scenario and innocent people will will focus on denying the crime the severity of the crime and the commission of the crime which we don't see here and finally he then refers to her behavior against him as a jihad which I think is is a metaphor for him either a from some kind of cultural upbringing he was born here in the united states or b it's a metaphor to make people view this person's actions in the most horrific way possible and that's my quick summary greg what do you got yeah so we start to see a pattern here and you'll hear me approach this pattern when we get on the dr phil show he is negotiating the guilt he's negotiating the question if I condition the question is the term a lot of people would use then I can answer the question the way I want did you have sexual relations good example but if I ask you did you have sex well not really sexual relations then you're conditioning the question and you'll hear that assuming it made it on dr phil when I ask him did you put your genitals on this woman my bare genitals well no that's not what I ask you did I and he starts that pattern here by saying she didn't hear me on zip she didn't hear this she didn't hear that so his denial is about those things not about whether he did any of this or not he gets to that halting pause again when he's talking about her enough to get exactly where it's here but you'll hear that halting pause that he used in this very successful business so it's a really good indicator and by now that intake eye the other eyebrow is sticking up enough he's poking on it and starting to pay attention to it and it comes into play in this show and then that's finally he marked you hit it he's looking like a a muppet or something as he shrinks into his own body yeah scott yeah yeah totally all right uh going back to what chase has talked about when someone is is uh guilty of something they're not going to focus on they're going to focus differently than the person who's who's innocent the person again who's innocent you can go in and say and when you open up you may say you sit down and say look there are all the evidence shows that you did this we know you did it we talked to two guys down there saw you do it so I know you did it there's no question about you're doing it and the more you talk the person who didn't do it is most likely just gonna sit they'll sit there for a second at the very top and they're gonna say wait a minute it wasn't me I didn't do it and they're gonna they're gonna go to 10 on getting angry especially with someone you're talking about a murder or someone's really bad they're gonna go to 10 because they're like my life you know oh my god so they're gonna go to 10 that's gonna be really hard to bring them back down really tough to get them calm back down the person who most likely would be guilty of most who did do it they're gonna they're gonna say when you say talk to two guys they know you did they may say you know they may get mad and oh one man didn't do it but they'll come down very quickly because they want to know what information you have and that's what he's waiting on he doesn't know if this woman's going to tell him other things which we alluded to we had more information than we had that we'd gotten from this woman that was in the little the online green room that we talked to we found out what was in the room we found out what it looked like we found out was near the door there's a crib near the door there are no curtains and we're going to use those things as we talked to him as as chase the plan was for chase to put a little mind virus which is something you throw in somebody's head and they start thinking about it as you're talking to him about something else and it gets bigger what do they know that that I'm not that I need that they haven't told me yet what do they know so when that person gets really mad and stays up there the innocent person really tough to bring them down because they're concerned about what's going to happen the guilty person they're going to know what you have they're going to keep going and in this case he keeps fighting these specific points he's picked out specific points to fight and keeps bringing him up and tagging him every time that shows you that most likely in this situation this guy is being deceptive and he's probably the one that did that or is the the guilty party in that situation so I'll stop right there we can go but you hit something earlier as well the whole amygdala issue because when the person goes into fight or flight that's real and anger that's real it's hard to ramp back down oh yeah yeah but if they're pretending yeah yeah because when you get that fired up it's hard to shut that back down hard to calm it down one of the first lessons much in play there one of the first lessons I ever learned about body language and behavior was I was working seer and guys would all cry my parents died in a horrible car accident you know every SF guy you ever meet toughest guys on earth they're all their parents died when they're eight years old in a fiery car crash they would all tell you and I went out and talked to a psych who worked with us there group psych and I said how do you overcome that and he said well it takes a certain part of your brain to cry what do you think happens if you ramp up the pressure and what happens when you ramp up the pressure and the crying is not real is it goes away if it's real it gets worse just like anger yeah exactly exactly and we will get into the intricacies of the fake cry we should sometimes because mainly it is hilarious and I like two days ago on dr. Phil there was one on there it was fake crying and I was in the floor it was so funny it was so funny because they squint those eyes and they start talking like this and they'll put something right up it's uh it's um it's one of my favorite things in the world to see one of my favorite things a great muscle oh not at all not at all because there's no grief there's no misunderstanding um so she she let me text her it was a long text she was explaining um you you felt my arm am I tuned for split second this is how it happened um but she didn't believe me she basically her apply was basic body mechanics would imply otherwise because she thought I was standing so she thought it would have been my private but I was on my knees and I even said to her video the same exact video I'm about to show you um in which I show her the table it's at the lowest level I have knee pads below there they're not just there for fun proving that I'm on my knees half the time therefore it's possible you could feel another part of my body I mean she didn't see anything either she didn't turn her head for a split second she she didn't hear me unzip she didn't hear me drop my shorts which she would have heard because it's a quiet massage room um so those those arguments are my favor but she just wasn't buying it she's gone on the biggest g hot ever posting one star reviews on okay uh we good yep there we go so you don't think it had she not left her keys she probably wouldn't have called the police is she yeah she may not have even so that's a shame because that was not reported to the news so I just it just looks so much more serious sure than it is but the her reporting contacting the local news did kind of surprise me that's not something you expect you know you just think you had a bad experience and who report me to the state boards you know but the news for some guy who just works out of his home not like out in a public studio and there's some doubt it just that definitely caught me by surprise you know sure I would so are any are any of Leah's allegations of inappropriate contact with you true are they all false well she only has what one allegation when you said allegations plural that sorry that's that's my mistake yes is the allegation I should say I'm sorry not plural is the allegation that Leah has against you that you inappropriately inappropriately touched your false her uh Leah's allegation against me is completely false wonderful right so yeah let's talk okay chase what do you got yeah so when he realizes the questions coming he exercises his upper forehead in the greek muscle that greg displays so beautifully on many of our videos and he starts nodding as the second question is coming and continues nodding all the way through his answer so I thought that was pretty interesting and as he says the word false he engages in eye blocking which is a potential deception indicator and then it's followed immediately by an eye roll and eye rolling is also eye blocking according to me I don't know if you guys agree we've never discussed this I've seen it a thousand times or somebody's doing doing this they're doing an eye block and they look back at the interrogator too soon and they realize they made eye contact too soon and they break it immediately and the eye roll is very common in that instance which is exactly what happens here it's a it's a great textbook response and is followed by a contempt facial expression towards the interviewer this time who is a woman and he engages another eyebrow flash while he's turning his head to the side and these are image management for him is especially if what Scott said is true I disagree slightly with Scott I think there's a potential for a malignant narcissism here granted I'm no doctor I only have a few things this guy turns into I'm going to use the polite term into a barracks lawyer suddenly he is going to parse words not allegations allegation well I'd say well if any of them are true then okay but he starts to parse words we call that barracks lawyer or something a little bit more rude typically in the army then he um he goes to containing all body language if you notice his hands stop moving he's not illustrating he's not adapting he's not doing anything his hands drop they get down by his side or somewhere off camera and then I think chase you're on with the eye blocking but I think his eye roll is more than that I think he's conscious of breaking eye contact and that it looks deceptive and so that's something he probably does in normal life but if he breaks eye contact down or to the side I think he's afraid that someone will perceive it that way and I think it's part of this overall image he's trying to portray to your point Scott he's got an image he wants to hold up and you know I'm this guy if you go and read this guy's profile he's got x number of degrees he's come up with new ways of of getting a college degree you know he invented water I mean just go read this stuff he's got all of that in in play so uh mark what do you got yeah so I want to pick up just on uh I think Greg and Chase his point there that he's he is already negotiating again negotiating around the terms so you know that classic as they've just said that eye roll I want to pick up on Chase's eye roll so for me the eye roll is going to come in a couple of places uh in that it's it's either going to be an image of disdain again uh or it's a juvenile behavior so we see eye rolls a great deal in teenagers especially around their parents you know their parents do something do something like oh there they go again again it's saying you're really not part of my group you really don't know how the world works do you so again when I'm looking at interviewing this person that's a big move and eye roll is quite a big uh juvenile move and I want to be able to trigger a whole bunch more of those so I think when I'm going into this interview if I can perform a little like a strong parent around them I might be able to trigger those kind of behaviors so go back to the interview kind of get a sense of what I'm doing the the tone of voice that I might have and a lot of that downward intonation that I'm doing it's rather like a mum or a dad who's telling their child you know how disappointed and wrong their performance has been again not because that's who I am though I can be that at times it's who I'm trying to be in order to provoke an emotional state from him and trigger those behaviors in the studio that we saw in the interview so you the audience watching the Dr Phil show can go oh this is who we've got in front of us somebody who is disdainful disrespectful of women of status of of the governance of of the situation he was very disdainful of the system by which his profession or former profession is being governed he those rules don't apply to him again back to scott's point this is the classic kind of behavior that we may well see from somebody who is a narcissist or certainly psychopathic certainly doesn't have any any reason why they think the rules of society apply to them so scott tell us what you got and this went up for us all right well I'm gonna go against everything you guys said about the eye rule I don't think it's eye blocking I don't think he's rolling his eyes I think it's a tick and I think we're seeing his brain flipping out and that's why and it's it's a it's a ticky's guy because he does it I think twice in this thing and that's not natural what he's doing is not natural there it's a tick you'll see people's ticks they'll do the oddest they'll go they'll have to wear like this thing I got in this habit a long time ago we're in the studio once and I and my and the engineer that's getting Patrick goes hey man what are you doing with your eyes and it's been with those it was one of those records we were doing that was so stressful been going on for months and I was doing this with my eyes he goes what are you doing I said I don't know what am I doing he said you've been doing this for like two months I was like why didn't you tell me that what would you so that was that was a tick I developed from from stresses sitting there doing that all the time so I think what we're seeing there's a stress because I think it is is amygdala is his whole system is starting to freak out now there's a difference in a sociopath and a psychopath again when we're talking about that every psychopath is a narcissist be they malignant be they the clinical however we ever going to turn it but not every narcissist is a sock is a psychopath that's a there's a there's a big difference that we've got to keep in in mind as we go along with this so we're seeing I agree with what you guys are talking about but the one part about the eye roll that that's different that's his brain is starting to overload he's trying to hold in that anger because I'll bet you from looking at this guy when he gets mad this guy gets mad that's what they call the the slipping of the mask when you see that thing slips when a woman marries a man and he's been nice and it's been wonderful at this point they're kindred spirits blah blah blah the next thing you know you get married and five minutes later this guy turns into a dang monster I think that's what we're seeing a hint of there he's trying to control this that's not he's flipping out and his eyes are going back in his head but I think that's one of his things he gets one of his adapters to get rid of the stress to get rid of a lot of stress but he's trying to control that because he's on video and he knows it so he's he tries to keep that under control that's what we're I believe we're looking at there now back when she asked him she says um as leah's elegance agation when he says is leah's or she says is leah's elegance a allegation he gets you completely false he doesn't say yes he goes on to explain again these parts of it that that he said yes and that was it and he should fight for that yes and he didn't he didn't say yes he waited um then he speaks peeking himself again back to chase and saying he looks at himself again in the in the monitor to see how he looks because he's got that narcissistic thing to him the critical narcissistic and I want to go with psychopath at this point or I've gone with that already but that's what I'm seeing there and that's a whole lot for me but that's what I got one thing to add if you don't think these tools work we were able to induce stress in this guy over the internet very quickly very quickly to tools work guys so you don't think it had she not left her key she probably wouldn't have called the police she was just yeah she may not have even so that's a shame because that was not reported to the news so I just it just looks so much more serious sure than it is but the her reporting contacting the local news did kind of surprise me that's not something you expect you know you just think you had a bad experience and who report me to the state boards you know but the news for some guy who just works out of his home not like out in a public studio and there's some doubt it just that definitely caught me by surprise you know sure I would imagine so are any are any of Leah's allegations of inappropriate contact with you true are they all false well she only has what one allegation when you said allegations plural sorry that's that's my mistake yes is the allegation I should say I'm sorry not plural is the allegation that Leah has against you that you inappropriately inappropriately touched your false her Leah's allegation against me is completely false wonderful right so yeah let's talk all right good yep now move on stupid things so but you know the news is never going to report the details of them so now the public is going to hear it and think I'm just this horrible felon I mean it sounds so much worse than it is you know that's how they are they are you a horrible horrible felon I have a perfectly clean background check I've never been arrested or been to a police station in my life I want to keep my record clean and I'm fighting now to do that because this could lead to um an indictment it could you know sure all right Greg what do you got yeah so this one's loaded and I want to take everything because there's a ton for us all one of my things I always talk about is sacred space we say that a barrier is when I need to get away from you I put something between us whatever that might be um an illustrator or an adapter is a way I release nervous energy and if you put a coyote on a KH you'll pace when a person crosses their body and fidgets they're creating what I call sacred space or taking space away from you and then making it comfortable all an adapter is is making the unknown known making the uncomfortable comfortable very simply this guy's got sacred space then he uses a push-pull word a horrible felon versus what other kind of felon he brings that up he's got a negotiation word which I would have hopped on and then when they I'm not a felon I'm not I have a clean background check have you done anything horrible no I've got a clean background check what does that mean there I will tell you a story a guy working in our skiff top secret clearance in New Jersey in 1999 was taken out in handcuffs because his girlfriend was in the trunk a background doesn't mean anything a background check when is the question and then he stresses the word felon with felon overdoes it and then a lip compression and I'll leave it at that we all know that lip compression is withholding emotion or information in some way so this guy has hiding all kinds of information and we could sense and feel there's a box of bees waiting to happen here and all we did was open the lid off the off the box and let him go so I think it was useful and helpful to be able to see and expect what was coming he's all kinds of anxiety built up in him Scott what do you got all right when he starts when he answers the when he answers and he says I have a perfectly clean black background check it gets really quiet and he's not saying hey man I got I don't have anything on my background check is perfect he doesn't say that because I have he talks almost like a child he gets really quiet and almost child like as he says I have a perfectly clean background check that's that's just weird out of the gate that's just that's just odd then you see as he's answering that head goes back and he starts looking at his nose at her on the internet so that's another little key for you to let you know it says that's just a little check off point for for a narcissist a narcissistic personality of course he's rubbing his hands as an adapter but we see his nostrils flare when he says when felon when he says felon we see his nostrils flare I got huge ones so you can see mine really easily but you can at the angle you can see is really easily his flair because you can see that anger starting to build and he tries to control it um there's um as he starts going his blink rate I'll leave blink rate to you Chase I'm gonna go steal I know you got stuff on that um they use his his qualifiers to prop up that answer so um let's see uh he never says no he says no he never says no I'm not a felon if he's somebody asking for your felon you say no no and that would be it and you'd wait for him to say something else then that's about it you say no and probably explain it if no I'm not a felon and then when he uncrosses his arms that's that's when he starts sitting on his hands he goes and he's sitting on his hands that is an indicator it doesn't mean every time someone's someone's being deceptive man that's that's for me I that's one of the things I look for and I'm looking for my rule of threes I look for three things before we say I think we're looking at someone's being deceptive that's not his baseline to sit on his hands that's right yeah yeah I don't know whose baseline it would be you know yeah we didn't seem to do that other than then right then all right Chase what do you got I've got 14 things here I'll just do three one thing I know we've all got a ton of stuff yeah we got tons of stuff on this guy I'll do the the blink rate first since you left it for me uh the blink rate starts out high he's under stress already so his blink rate starts out at a 26 and keep in mind 13 maybe 16 somewhere around there is our normal blink rate when we're in conversation higher blink rate means higher stress it goes up to a 96 towards the middle of this when he's just describing to this person how his background is clean and all this number two solid unwavering eye contact we've all heard our parents say look me in the eye and tell me you didn't do that look me in the eye and tell me x that myth is so pervasive that people actually believe that liars will make less eye contact and now there's new studies I can't sorry guys I can't say the the university that did it but liars and people being deceptive will make more eye contact than truth tellers because truth tellers are accessing memories to answer the question finally here for this list of three he uses what's called a resume statement and this is a classic perfect beautiful example of what a resume statement is so if i'm talking to someone who is accused of touching someone inappropriately in their car and I ask him John what happened in the softball field parking lot when Emily was in the passenger seat of your car and he says I have a master's degree in behavioral psychology I know exactly what that would do to a kid I've been volunteering teaching this softball team for the last nine years and my kids are friends with Larry's kids that's a resume statement it also doesn't answer the question so that's great all that stuff put together and a couple other things his deception score was a 14 yeah I'm gonna let me let me just address that that part where you're talking about the study about the uh looking to look at someone the reason someone keeps looking at you obviously we know this now is because they want to make sure you believe them as right as the person is being honest they're gonna look around like you said there'll be access and thinking the other person wants to keep their brain wants to keep looking at you to make sure you're telling them that you believe them so you can add qualifiers if they're not the study was done I can't remember the guy's name was in one of my decks when I do training how the bridge yeah it was bridge vr ij if you want to go to the university but it is it's bridge okay I'm gonna go against you guys on that the one I'm talking about isn't that he got always be got he got he got uh everyone to go out to different continents he used all kinds of people to go out and do the studies this one we're talking about that might be good Johnson so there's more than one study but me let me have one thing for for you that is cultural because if you go to the Middle East eye contact is pervasive and they make constant eye contact they go out of their way not to break eye contact and in Asia less eye contact based on status and that kind of thing in certain countries not even Korea that was a part of it but I will tell you this in americans it is pretty consistent that people make about 50 to 75 percent eye contact and if you don't understand why this is why people always give me hard time about eyes but remember your favorite song and six words in try to answer that question with with your eyes straight ahead it's just damn near impossible because your brain is dancing and trying to recall information to scott's point so a lot of interrogations a few hundred maybe a few more than that and in all of those it was one of my best indicators when a guy ties me with his eyes and one of the and and again no and to that Greg Joe Navarro the first three faces on the Mount Rushmore body language he says he one of his opening things is always the behavior you're looking for is either limbic or it's cultural so you have to decide what you're looking at there so a lot of people say oh that this is an absolute because you do every time in different cultures this means something different in the Middle East and so does this so you got to be careful to catch your hands off over there if you do those at the wrong time so all right mark what do you got yeah so to that point of eye contact because uh in term because it's cultural different levels of eye contact different reasons in different countries what we're looking at here is most most probably a moderator or what everybody else calls regulators so regulators moderators change country to country that's why if I go to Brazil and I get into a conversation I can't work out if it's my turn or their turn because the moderators the regulators being used for it's your turn in my culture is doesn't mean it's your turn in the Brazilian culture so it's it gets very confusing for me and I'm like why do they keep on talking or why can't I get a word in here because my cultural instinct doesn't know what it's looking out for to know whether I can join in or not I think in in in in this case eye contact is often used as a moderator or regulator during lying to control the process that's that's going on so what have I got on the rest of this look are you a horrible felon and we see both shoulders raise I would say what we're seeing in that is he doesn't as yet know the answer as to if he's a horrible felon or not it's it's open for him now he has got a a logic or a pseudo logic a a a wonky logic to get himself out of this which is you know I don't have you know any my background check is absolutely fine we've all discussed that that doesn't mean anything about are you a horrible felon or not are you a bad person you know should you be fingered by the law well there's nothing on my rap sheet well that that doesn't make any sense whatsoever and so for me in any kind of interview I would be right on people's generalizations and I'm right on their wonky logic as well because often their wonky logic is trying to convince me of something and that's what he's trying to do here he's doing reputation control which is his whole reason for being on the Dr. Phil show is he's doing reputation control I mean I think we've worked out that he's doing it from from from not a good position a really bad position but he's trying his best to do that reputation control Greg you want to jump in so I just want to point out this guy had been on catfish before and he had been on Judge Mathis before so I I think he just wants his picture on the airwaves more than he's trying to clear up anything I agree with you Mark but if he came here for for for us clearing his name I think that was an ugly mistake and those those are classic psychopathic tendencies there are the hardcore narcissists the clinical narcissist but those but those are our classic almost checkoffs on on hair's list as a whole if you look at that list and look at the body's doing it because yeah no matter what happens no matter how horrible it is the deed you've done you'll hear serial killers they want to be interviewed they want to talk about it they don't have people come in and talk to them because they because it makes some famous people talk about them to that no that that's all I got that's all I'll say on that one sorry step in Mark I thought it was a day we just picked up on one last thing there which is this piece of anger because I saw the anger in there as well and so again when I'm thinking about our process of doing this interview I'm certainly thinking how can I get him angry how can I get the audience to see this true anger that's inside him around this because there's something I would suggest and I think everybody agrees me with me here there's something quite dangerous about that anger that he has in him something that that that we maybe haven't at this point seen the full potential the full danger of that anger and I think the strategy here was if we can help the audience see some of that ramped up then the audience might be able to see who Tarek really might be rather than him control his reputation on this show now I said that it doesn't stand a lot of chance because Dr. Phil's pretty good at this he's been around a long long time you know I have to say we all agree on this watching Dr. Phil work was just wow yeah that was that's good stuff man see that go down live was really without any editing man that was good well like I said to him in in the note that was that was a fine piece of interrogation we were watching yeah yeah no let me know I would have thought he was he's been interrogating people for a long time yeah well at that that part where Mark was talking about how we're trying to to get information out of him on that and they may have cut this out as there's conversations going on I'm trying to break in I keep calling him Isaac and I think they had to say they may have have changed it and put the word Tarek in there I think they were in the impression I thought his name was Isaac I knew his name was Tarek but he used Isaac as an alias so I thought I could start hollering at him and get you know Isaac Isaac is I kept saying that so I get his attention that would throw him off even more which I think worked because I did end up talking to him for a couple seconds after that and I could tell by looking at him he was like these I don't know what they know I can't tell what these people know so we're doing as you see this some of the behavior may look like it's out it may look odd or it may look you go what's what's what they're being why are they be doing that at this point that's why we're trying to get him to flip out at that point or to lose his temper not flip out and give it just puke up a bunch of information for us also the the name Isaac is is used as a pseudonym for him or another mask yes yes another identity that he creates so again by using by flipping between those two we can move him between one character another character so he's in a constant pattern interrupt again that might cause him to be more truthful about you know go back to his more truthful behaviors and tell us what's really going on so all of these are there's nothing happening on that video by actually stupid things so but you know the news is never going to report the details of him so now the public is going to hear it and think I'm just this horrible felon I mean it sounds so much worse than it is you know that's how they are they are you a horrible horrible felon I have a perfectly clean background check I've never been arrested or been to a police station in my life I want to keep my record clean and I'm fighting now to do that because this could lead to um an indictment it could you know sure yeah the last thing I would add is Dr. Phil's trying to give this guy some help and try to get him to a point where he realizes he needs help and if we did guys what I was proud of the operation to do is he saw Dr. Phil as a friendly by the time we were done and ran to him you could see it he was like yeah yeah and that's what we did work because I think chase he thought you were going to be friendly because your tone was calm yeah and then when you said Andy Griffith on exactly there yeah that was great yeah that was beautiful guys but I think he realized that Andy Griffith was closing the jail door on his fingers and he might need to run to Dr. Phil so I think yeah I think in the outcome he did ask for for the help he did ask for the help that was offered uh I wouldn't put a lot of money on him taking that help I hope he does oh he's gonna have to it wouldn't be my my big bet I would not bet much on it at all uh but it's great that that the show uh and we along with Dr. Phil and the other people involved there managed to get him to that point where he went okay give me some help because he really needs it yeah now so keep in mind as you watch this one more time we created a situation where he sent him down what we're going to call a shoot and he and he sort of pinballed off of each one of us till we got him down there to the end where Chase caught him and he was in the impression Chase was going to take care of him and that didn't happen and that's after that's when we started but started bouncing around even more psychologically see if we get more out of him once we threw him back to Dr. Phil so all right be good yeah so you each gave him a punch and he came to me and I gave him an injection yeah of a mind virus yeah yeah and guys this is the way if you if you ever want to know how interrogation works this is the way it's intended to work psychological pressure and release it's how you get people to talk it's a matter of creating the right trust environment and getting to a point where that person rolls over and gives you again it's just like I said before giving them permission to do the wrong thing right that's all it is exactly good now at the end of this is that this is over go ahead and subscribe if you like what we're doing and hit that little bell so you'll know when we have something new come out please do that because we're trying to build our numbers like everybody else is but if you like it go ahead and subscribe we'd really appreciate it all right what's it good and fellas that one's in the can I'll see you next time yeah thanks deal bye now oh Scott in the beginning 10 minutes 15 minutes in something fell beside me I heard it okay and I it also scared the shit out of me okay I'll see if I can help blow somebody up or something Mark was talking but can you make him full-screen or something but I'll try to get out of him so it didn't so it didn't look weird you could see me go like this