 Good morning once again, thank you for staying with us. If you're just joining, well, you are on time for a fast conversation of the day on youth and career. And for today, we want to look into a particular industry that is the aeronautical industry. And for that, we have been joined by experts that is Captain Richard Juguna on my right, my nearest right, he's the CEO of Fashion Aviation Limited and that is an aviation business consultancy and also a polished and seasoned aviator. To my farthest right, we have Captain Geoffrey Pesta, who's a pilot by profession and also he also trains. He takes pride in growing startup, SMEs into corporate and making sluggish performing businesses turn around. Let's just a brief about them. Welcome gentlemen. Thank you. Pleasure having you over there. Pleasure is all ours. Okay, so we went to get sneak peek. I've already introduced you, but we want to understand exactly what you do and maybe I'll start with the captain, Captain Geoffrey. Tell us exactly what you do, the scope of your work. Okay, my background is I am a trained pilot, I'm a flight instructor, but also I'm a business development manager. I trained as a funny, my first degree was in the Battle of Science in Forestry and then I got into marketing. So that's how I developed into business and then now I got into piloting and now I'm a flight instructor. Oh, okay, amazing. And what about you, Richard? Well, mine is a long journey. At the age of nine, I knew what I wanted to become. I wanted to be an engineer. I think I used to make small, small items here and there. Then when I went to high school, fortunately I found myself into an aviation school and so I started studying aviation from one and then after high school, I joined college to do my engineering diploma, which I did very well, I was the best student. And then after that I started working in a very small company and grew from a technician to a licensed engineer and later on into management to a very senior person. I was a technical director for one of the biggest airlines in Kenya that was dark aviation. But then later on I did my flying. Jeff was my instructor, he pushed me so hard that I had to get my license in five months and so I'm a pilot as well and we also do business together. Okay, amazing, that's quite interesting. So from what Jeff said, you started off with the business background marketing. So is it possible for one to have a start off in a different career and end up in aviation? Yes, I always tell my students and their parents that in this day and age, it's very good to diversify in terms of what your capabilities are and it's never too late. I started flying at the age of 32 and so it's never too late but it's possible. Most of my students and I encourage parents and sponsors to allow them to get some degree other than flying. So it's possible and it's an added advantage. He's an engineer, he's a pilot. When you get into an organization where now you are pilots, you have an age because now if they're looking for somebody to run the business, you have something extra that the other pilot doesn't have. So it's always good to have something extra and it's possible. All right, and we need to talk about being a pilot as a career, how viable is it? Is it good enough or as you said, it's also good to have another degree as an advantage. So we'll take a look at that and back to you engineer, how is it being in the aeronautical engineering space? Well, this calls for a gift like you have the passion to make things, to repair things, to develop things. So it starts from that passion. If you have a passion for that and as Jeff has said, you can always be what you wanted to become. If, I mean for example, I encourage people to do what they dream to be. Every dream is valid. Whatever you dream to be can be achieved no matter how difficult it seems to be. So engineering starts from a passion. Like you have a gift to make stuff, then you can be trained and become an engineer and it's not difficult. And for you, you said at a very young age, you said at nine years you were making things and you knew what you wanted to become. So it's very important for parents to take note of the skills that the children have. Absolutely. I really encourage parents to look at their kids and see what they are really interested in. You don't need to be a pilot or an engineer or you just need to be what you are born to be and you will be the best in it. I think, I mean, your gift keeps making room for you wherever you go. If you're born an engineer, you will find opportunities presented to you wherever you go and you will identify them, I mean get into them and excel in them. And were you sure that it's there, you wanted to be specifically an aeronautical engineer, why not a civil engineer, something else in engineering? Very interesting. I had very specific interest in aircraft. My grandma used to tell me, anytime I saw an aircraft fly by our place, which was a very remote place, I would look up, look at the aircraft, draw it and maybe make a piece of it and she would always tell people, this boy, he will turn out to be something with the aircraft. I really love the aircraft, yes. Okay, so for you it really started at a young age, you had it all together. Yes. Okay, nice. What about you Kaptein, being a pilot, how did you end up being a pilot, having a background in business and marketing, how did you know that you wanted to venture into it? I mean just like Richard, I always wanted to be a pilot. The delay were just circumstances and opportunities to get a sponsor, pay for myself the fee. So my decision was just delayed because of circumstances, but when I, so I had to do something first that would then finance my flying. So that's how come I started with the business and then when I had enough finance now, I financed myself into flying. Wow, amazing. So now we want to know how it is, you know, before flights, during the flights, just out of curiosity for someone who doesn't know what usually happens in the back end. Maybe you can take us through that. Okay, there are different levels of flying. There are normal training flights like the ones that we used to train students. The preparation is so much left to the pilot in terms of how the preparation of your aircraft, you have to do your own, ensure it is well. Of course there's a ground crew that will make sure that it is well, but in terms of preparing for your flight where you are going, the route and whatever you are going to do for the small aircraft, it's so much to do with you. Now if you go to the other extreme of the airline type of aircrafts, the ones that are scheduled, you find that there's too much more work that goes into it because there is the crew that ensures that the flight plan is put into your management computer systems. There is also the crew that are serving people in the aircraft, so the preparation is much bigger. So that's why I'm saying that there's a big difference in terms of preparation that goes into it. But there's a lot that you, as a person who comes and sits in the flight, don't see. But there's a lot of preparation even a day before. You have to know your weather. Am I going to fly into weather tomorrow? You know, all those kinds of things. So because some people just, you know, I told you flight has been delayed because of the weather and they don't really understand why. Maybe you can tell us about that. Well, yeah, I mean sometimes, nothing is usually 100% in terms of planning. So the weather forecasts are usually based on some science somewhere and it's never 100% accurate. So sometimes you might find that, yes, you had planned that you are going to maybe take off from Kisumu to come and land at Wilson and all of a sudden the weather is not how it was expected. So unless now you are flying instruments, there's a difference. Now you're totally flying instrument flying. Then you go into an airport that has capabilities to allow you to land into that weather. You must delay your flight. Because maybe you're leaving from a place where the weather is okay. But you're going to a place where the weather is not okay. You can't land. And if you keep circulating, your fuel will run off. Okay, that's dangerous. And I want to know, before I get back to the engineer, I want to know how stable this is or how viable just being a pilot is and not having any other degree because I read somewhere, maybe I read it. It said, ask anyone who's been in aviation for 40 years and they will tell you it's not a stable career. More than most industry, aviation is sensitive to economic upticks and downturns. When downturns come, airline pilots who are on lower seniority list are the ones likely to get laid off. That said, the growth we are seeing in aviation today is meteoric. Will it last forever? It probably won't. But the focus all paint a rosy picture of job growth and industry growth for the near and long term. Well, to some extent. But I do think that this happens everywhere. Every industry is affected by those factors. The aviation industry probably is more sensitive in terms of taking such shocks like when COVID came, you know, people couldn't move as much. So it took more beating than any other industry. But those factors said will affect everyone whether you are in any other business. The truth is, when economics bite, obviously then that comment about the more senior people and probably because the kind of contracts that they have and the kind of... When somebody who has a longer time contract probably becomes more difficult in terms of what you have agreed with them to let them go. Probably the guys who are just starting do not have that kind of a contract yet or maybe they are still on probation or maybe they have a schedule of less working hours. So probably that's why they get hurt. But I would not say that the aviation industry or the piloting is not viable. One, I don't even think there are enough pilots. That's a new? There are not enough pilots because the airline pilots, let me just take you back a bit, for you to become an airline pilot you need to have flown a certain number of hours. How many hours? Over 1500. Most pilots right now probably 60 to 70% are below that because you finish at 250 hours and if you do not get a job somewhere to build hours to get to that 1500 then you have nothing, you have to volunteer somewhere, go into instructing something. So it takes you longer after finishing or it takes you maybe two years to finish your 250 hours but for you to build up to that other 1500 hours it takes you longer. So that is why there is that gap. Because I know of many people or a few that I know that have started piloting and it has taken them years before they get a job into piloting. So I'm wondering is it that difficult? That's the circumstance. It's that for you to qualify and people also have this misconception that you must work at the airlines and a career living as a pilot because there's a difference. Your licenses start from a student pilot license minimum 16 years old you get a student pilot license which allows you to fly as a student under instruction. After that you get your first license which is a private pilot license which allows you only, it's like you can only fly yourself if you own your own plane you can't do it flying for commercial reasons. You can't carry people for money. So you can fly yourself and that's still called. And that's just 40 hours 40 to 45 depending on how good you are. So you still can't earn a living but you're a pilot actually. And you go up to about 200 to 250 hours you get your commercial pilot license. Now you can fly people for money but you cannot fly a scheduled flight. A scheduled flight is a flight that lives every day at 2. Those are the airline pilots I'm talking about who require 1,500 hours but you can still make a living. As a commercial pilot? Yes, you can become a flight instructor you can do carry people for charters. So there's a large number of people at that stage between the commercial pilot and the airline transport pilot. So we have a number of pilots. A number of guys in between there and this number there's not enough work for them in there and that's why there's that disparity. That makes sense. Now I want to go to engineer we have been with you for so long we want now to understand about the aeronautical engineering space how is it, you know, is it viable as a career path for someone and opportunities? It's very viable. I must say like Jeff is saying aviation has shortage of stuff because first of all people think of aviation and they think it's a mystery. Something that is not achievable something that is far-fetched like it's so far from you you cannot attain it I mean before you venture into it you really need a lot of courage but it's a career like any other career I mean you can become anything in aviation it's a whole world of career it has so many areas you can work in finance, piloting, engineering there is a flight dispatchers they are I mean clean as anything you can do anything in aviation so it's a whole industry and once you are there that's when you discover it's a whole world so engineering yes it's a viable business it's a lengthy process which you have to really undergo What does it take to be an aeronautical engineer? It takes a lot of work because like for example myself when I graduated from college and I thought I'm a big person I have my diploma now I'm a full engineer and so I can be a big boss somewhere let's get started then I went to be actually by first employment I can tell you I was earning like for 200 shillings a day it was just like an internship and then when I got there the first job I was given was to clean the hangar floor in the morning then I would then after cleaning the hangar floor then I would join the rest of the people and we start doing small small jobs but I was being assigned very little things and here you thought you were now a very big person I thought basically but then that shaped me it humbled me I was able to grow I started adding up what I had learnt in school and I was able to grow a bit from a technician now when you come from school and you have your certificates you join the industry and you become a technician you are not even an engineer yet so you become a technician they start training you hands on then after that you can do your licenses but you have to have at least 2 years experience before you get your license before you start doing exams or your licenses mine I was because at the time there was I mean it was not very clear what is examined on it was a very uncertain industry so it took me 5 years from the time I graduated from college to the time I got my first license so it was really a lengthy period of time but nowadays it's simpler we've really mentored people to get the system easy for them so you get your license as an engineer now and that's not the end that's just a license so when you get license now you know you are an engineer but then still you are not very effective because you cannot sign off an aircraft an aircraft is not like a car which you take to a mechanic he fixes and tells you off you go check on the road so it has to be checked and signed off by an engineer without that signature a licensed and certified engineer the pilot cannot even touch that aircraft to flight you take a lot of time before you actually get to sign off an aircraft yes what happens once you get your license it's just basic license let me just for the purposes of those who don't I mean for the listeners we have categories of licenses and we have categories of aircraft we have fixed wings fixed wing aircraft we have piston engine aircraft which are small aircraft they use aviation gasoline and then we have larger aircraft which are turbine propeller aircraft and then we have jet engines aircraft those are fixed wing aircraft and they have certain categories of licenses then we have rotary wing aircraft which are helicopters that you know choppers that everybody see with politicians going here and there so that's a different category of aircraft two categories of aircraft the fixed wing and the rotary wing so the fixed wing which personally I'm licensed on my first license was for very small aircraft the piston engine aircraft and then I went on to get licenses now for bigger engine aircraft which are not now piston engines they are gas turbine yes gas turbine engines and turbine propeller engines and then I got the licenses for the engines and also for the aircraft so when you get those there are three categories either you get you can decide to to now concentrate on the small aircraft or you can concentrate on the larger aircraft turbine propellers or pure turbine fun engine aircraft those are the large jets and the regional aircraft aircraft from maybe 20 passengers on so you decide which one that you want to major on yes so when you get the basic license then you do type training on specific aircraft that's when now when you do type training and you have experience of over 6 months and of course you must be good at it then you can be given authorization to sign an aircraft off like now you say you are an engineer you have some kind of authority definitely because you know people are dependent if there is any mistake at that point then it's bad there is no second chance that's why you have to sign it off yourself okay that's saying that in case of anything I take responsibility and you can be taken to court that's big back to you what does it take captain to be a pilot education wise you know how to go to school to learn aviation for a certain period of time what after that well the minimum requirements is usually a C however strong background because most of the subjects there are subjects that will come up that require good you to be good in physics and maths because you can understand what he has just been explaining a bit of technical such will be an advantage to you so there are those bare minimums but then after that there is the training bit of it there is the ground school which is basically theory as I said earlier so if you are going for your PPL you sit in class maybe if you are full time student 3 months then you sit exams are actually from the regulators can ask civil aviation so you sit those exams you pass the exams then you get your license but before you get your license after sitting for the theory you must go for the practicals you have to start flying usually very good students get their solo flights between 10 to 12 sometimes it delays but it is usually 14 hours you get your first solo student and how hard is it to learn piloting is it as easy as learning how to drive is it more technical it is hard because for some it is easy for some it is natural for some people struggle I have had students who one of the things I have learnt is that it is a motoring skill thing those students who are easy to coordinate the modern kids who play games the ones who probably ride bikes the guys who are driving a car it is easy because the motoring skills are good but generally it depends on each individual I would not say it is easy but I would not say it is hard either it depends on the individual how expensive or affordable is it to learn and to venture into being a pilot you be the judge I will give you a bigger the PPL is slightly over a million then for you to go on until CPL and get your instrument rating we are talking about 3.2 3.5 combined all the way up to yeah but if you it takes a period of time most schools also are cognizant of that fact so they help parents and sponsors by giving you a payment plan so that 3 million is not something that you pay upfront you probably have to pay and they fly off those hours you add more right now it is about $260 per hour so it really depends on the person who is paying for it it is cheap for someone it is quite expensive depends on what you are going for we want to know before I get back to you how is the pilot aviation industry in Kenya as compared to other countries I would say not the opportunities is the key at the end of the day they have been there for a while if you look at the US Europe in terms of what the industry is the industry is bigger than what we have here the number of passengers who are flying in Europe in America are of course more and therefore the business is bigger so that would be a number one difference of course it trickles down to everything it trickles down to the number of pilots who are in aviation the number of engineers are obviously having a better advantage in those countries than they have here and that goes down to even the schools and the training but I don't think that we are badly off in the path there is a lot of legislation and support from government there is a bit more organization in terms of associations that now so that the industry is built together amazing now back to you engineer how can you compare the aeronautical career in Kenya compared to other countries is it the same thing well we are far ahead I must say recent I mean the previous past South Africa was doing very well in Kenya and many other places but right now I must say Kenya is advancing very fast it's growing very fast and again looking at the recent happenings like now we can fly directly from Kenya to the US that gives us an opening for advancing a lot so now while aviation like in South Africa is going down in Kenya it's growing there is quite some growth so basically as my captain has said we have shortage of stuff in the aviation industry so but there are other of course other countries like Ethiopia which are far ahead of us because they have a lot of advantages from the government to the fact that they have also been in this industry for long and so they are ahead of us but Kenya in Africa I must say we are not so badly off we are among the top aviators or rather in the aviation industry interesting about aeronautical engineering again so interesting facts about aerospace engineering that people don't know Aerospace engineering is definitely a bit more advanced because it is the study of the objects that go into the space away from the atmosphere of the earth and that here in Kenya is a mystery because we don't have so much that not even schools that train aerospace engineering or aerospace science here like NASA in the US but there are a few people of course from Kenya who have gone out to study their aerospace engineering and aerospace science but it's not so if you went out there to study for it I don't think you will come back to apply it here because we are far from launching a rocket or a spaceship or a space vehicle so it wouldn't be so viable here okay so it's there but in Kenya it's not really so it will be a waste unless you're going to practice it abroad remember let me say aviation and aerospace science is not a local thing I can work from many countries and I've worked in so many countries aviation has opened doors for me to go to any place that I ever wanted to go I've worked in the whole of Africa during my career so I think I feel like I'm a bit very old in my career because you've traveled you've worked I've traveled, I've worked, I've had fun I have done I've enjoyed working in aviation and this is my world and it's global so when I meet when I go anywhere in the world and I meet my fellow aviators I'm at home in the same language wow okay what about you what do you love most about your job well there are two they say everybody must have their drug so for me flying is one of them flying is one of them every time I'm able to fly I feel relaxed it's just it's just that's my space but other than that the biggest fulfillment as a flight instructor is seeing this guy or this lady who walks in the first time and you ask them are you sure you want to become a pilot and then you take them for the test flight and they come out of it and then the next time quick forward here he is flying flying you wow it brings satisfaction and there are quite a number of them that have been my student so that for me has been very fulfilling okay on your bio profile you said you love traveling a lot so does it get to a point where you're tired of traveling because that's all you do many people who don't travel want to travel does it get bored at some point no it doesn't I mean that was my other medicine so it doesn't because I like to go everywhere in the world I'm not even halfway I'm not even a third yet there are places I want to repeat so you can imagine when will I get tired the world is your home so it doesn't get tired what about you engineer what do you love most about your job my job well I think now I'm retiring from engineering anyway I'm not really retiring I'm in my 40s still young but I must say that I really love my my industry and there's always the next page to my career like now I'm being an engineer being a pilot I'm also a businessman so basically there's always something new for me to do while I'm doing my career so basically it doesn't tire me to continue in aviation also I love traveling as well I've traveled a lot but as you said there's always something new to listen to somewhere new to go to there's something new to see there's some new aspirations new dimensions of everything wow okay what about the business side of it and I'll ask both of you because now you are CEO of passion aviation how is it well it's beautiful our company is ten years since when it was registered but then we have been in operation for two years and the reason where we ventured into this business is because in our career like let me talk about myself when I worked for an airline I grew because of the passion that I have for aviation I grew from an engineer to an administrator to a director technical director I remember my boss shaking hands with me I was in my 30s and I was a director taking over from people who were white people before me my predecessors were all white they were all over 55 years old and here I come a young person in my 30s and I am a director given charge of over 20 aircraft with four managers reporting to me none of them my age all of them are older than me most of them are foreigners not even Kenyans and then everybody looks at me and thinks you are too young for this position again I kept on growing myself because I also went to school and I did my master's in aviation management in 2013 so but then the reason why we were I mean we thought of starting or doing this business is our previous experience whereby the company the airline I worked with gave me an opportunity to start to be in charge of importing aircraft for them like I would go out either to Europe or US or Canada prepare an aircraft from scratch contracts compliance technical inspections and make sure that the aircraft is ready to be imported then I would prepare it come with it fly on it then we land here and we can start flying on it so it became a passion also to like now master the art of buying aircraft selling them and so when we started this business we started now consulting on that area we can if anybody is looking to buy an aircraft see us if you want to lease an aircraft see us if you have an aircraft that you are selling we have contacts all over the world and we are able to sell them or buy the aircraft or guide the process you are saying if anyone wants to buy an aircraft maybe the company will answer this who is able to buy an aircraft you can anyone just buy an aircraft we have an aircraft yes I mean just like property nobody is restricted the restriction is how are you going to operate it and where are you going to operate it just not like a car one every aircraft must be attached to an AMO or an engineering company that takes care of it signs it off it must be attached to an operator also even if it is in a private name it must be attached to an engineering firm that looks after it buying anyone I am waiting for your order well hopefully when I get there I will buy because I imagine it is a fortune I don't even want to imagine how much an aircraft will cost they are different sizes how much does a helicopter cost we reached about 1.5 million to about 4 million a good one $1.5 million that's the price of an aircraft $1.5 million in aviation we deal with dollars we don't want to surprise people with figures about Kenyan shillings ok well that's quite costly but I mean if you have the money now back to you you deal with we take pride in growing start-up SMEs into corporates and making sluggish performing business turn around is this in the aviation space too yeah both out and in because I started in business I started my own HR consultancy firm from scratch it's called Falcom Networks we basically do outsourced HR consultancy basically if you have your staff mainly generally at a lower level staff you can come to us and we employ on your behalf we manage their performance and we do the performance evaluations we do all the way from recruitment to managing these people their salaries, their statutory deductions their payrolls and things like that and for me the satisfaction I'm getting from that which is one of our mission as a company is to help develop young people so that they can have some decent living for them and they have a question regarding startups why do most startups fail in Kenya they start well and then they collapse what is the problem I think the biggest problem is people never people who are likely to succeed in startups are people who have had the opportunity and exposure to work in a company so that you understand the full cycle of what happens in marketing what happens in business R&D what happens in finance you have a bigger picture sometimes it gives you that advantage other than the normal factors that make all startups fail lack of access to finance lack of access to markets where you are selling your services or products the biggest problem I've always figured out people don't have this full outlook of how a business is and most startups are individual companies it is you you've just started it yourself and then you fail completely to separate the business and you so you think it's you and the business you look at it as one thing you end up with the business that you have just started and you are earning a profit of 50K you must pay yourself a salary and that salary must be sustainable if you consume that whole 50K you are just going to run out so either you decide I'm not paying myself because this 50K that I'm making is just enough to pay my rent so that the business is totally on its own as a separate entity because every day you have a startup that's what you go and consume at home that's the little money that you have used for your own personal stuff you don't draw that line that really hurts your business and you don't know so finally as we conclude I'm being told that time has flown by so you to tell us what is the future of the aeronautical industry in Kenya or you will also tell us but you will tell us the technical bit of it in terms of technology where are we going so I'll start with you Jeffrey I think the government is fully aware especially post COVID that a lot of effort has to be put in bringing the industry back to performance we are heading in a right space I'm seeing better times ahead because even when I told you that we are short of staff as time goes by these guys are getting their hours and we are hopeful that they'll get to that level where now they are employable at those levels that are required and also I've seen a lot of interest in terms of investments we have more choppers right now than we had some years back so there's a lot of investment and equipment by investors so we are headed in a right space so in the right direction where can people get you on social media if they want to contact you for FALCOM we have a website that's www.FALCOM.com www.FALCOM.com FALCOM with a M F I R L L C O M okay alright thank you very much and what about you engineer before you get to answer that question there's something you said Sky not being the limit aviation is a dream that I fly a week comment on that as you tell us the future of the aeronautical industry in terms of technology we have seen flying taxis or something like that so it's in other countries yeah it's coming here we have drones that you fly on the ground I mean you operate them from the ground now they are taking over the helicopter arc like you're inspecting pipelines or inspecting electric cables or lines so there is also the technology is changing we have air taxis as you say in Dubai it's happening you can like do a tour over the city or you can move from one place to the other using an aircraft which some now can do their own and also fly so a lot is changing are we getting there as a country as I said Kenya you know Kenya is usually fast in so many things especially tech politics everything we are always ahead other countries learn from us so basically I can say engineering world Kenya is a bit ahead but again we need a lot of support from the government we need also to equip our training institutions to be able to train people in the current technology because things are changing everything is becoming automated yesterday I saw some people now can push an aircraft a whole aircraft carrying over 300 passengers with a remote controlled towing tug where it's not operated by a human being so you can just like a game and you can push it back and then the aircraft can taxi and fly so a lot is required to support the institutions that are there but again as I said Kenya we are bit ahead and we can only encourage the young people to join don't fear I started as an engineer I became a pilot I have done or other achieved all and above what I really wished to achieve and I think sky is not the limit as we are the people who defy the gravity so we can defy any impossibilities and you say impossible I look at it as two words the INM says I am possible not impossible I am possible so basically it is possible so there's a lot of opportunities a lot get into it come to you should give you a tour Jeff and I own a plane you come to the airport we can fly you for free I am looking for you you have said that on national TV not going back to take you off for that offer you can fly around thank you very much gentlemen for giving us such amazing insights into this industry I am sure someone who wanted to join was curious about it now has the knowledge that they need to move ahead so that has been captain Richard Juguna on my captain Geoffrey Cassina Pessa on my farthest right over there and they have been talking to us about the aeronautical space, the aviation industry and being an aeronautical engineer I am sure you have taken a lot from it it has been an interesting conversation thank you for sticking with us through this a lot more is coming your way just remember to interact with us on our social platforms at Y254 using the hashtag why in the morning my personal handle is at Stephanie Ayeta we take a short break and then we will be back with more