 Hello everyone and welcome to our live fireside chat today. I'm super excited to welcome you to the show. This evening we have a wonderful guest joining us from none other than Google. I would love to introduce A.B. Atoldi joining us live from Amsterdam today. Hello, how's it going A.B. Atoldi from San Francisco but we're both in Europe, we're both in A.B. Atoldi. Fantastic. Off to a great start here. So yes, exactly as A.B. said, we're both joining you from Europe, I'm in Paris and she is in Amsterdam. I am, my name is Chantelle. I am a product marketing manager here at Product School and I'd love to turn it over to A.B. to introduce yourself as well. Hi, my name's A.B. Atoldi. I am a director of product at Google, supporting the team that looks after the YouTube studio product. So if you're a creator, you probably have used that product. Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for joining us. Again, A.B. we're super, super grateful to have you here this evening. We've got a lot of awesome questions in store for our audiences who are tuning in around the globe. This evening, this afternoon, this morning, wherever you might be. So I'd love to deep dive in and get started with the first one, which is super general. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got started in product market management? Absolutely. The interesting thing about this story is that there's a really popular saying that hindsight is 2020. So looking back, it all fits together. But looking forward, I had no idea what I was trying to do. So I have this trifecta of a career, which is you, some people call it the three stalls or the triangle. And we talk about in product management, engineering, understanding the business and the user experience. And essentially, that's how my career went. So I started as an engineer, I was in hardware, then moved over to full stack very early days. And then I moved into design. I was very excited about how you sort of take this, these concepts are sometimes ethereal. They feel a little bit ethereal. And design is the first time that it's brought to life, right, in a way. It's the first time it's a little bit more tangible. So pivoted into design, in parallel, that's a whole other story, published a book on photography, which was meant to be a very short product, but scope creep, every product manager knows about that. And then moved into operations. And that's kind of where the product management transition happened as a general manager at Uber for West Africa. And we did all this work in your product marketing. So you probably appreciate, we did all this work marketing the product, getting it in front of people. And then they would come in and they would drop off because they couldn't pay. So we basically would talk about this whole thing of, Uber's trying to be everywhere and for everyone, but right now it's for some people in some places. And so I started working quite a lot with the payments team, the money team. And one of the big bets was we should launch cash. And it was a huge push around the business, but that's basically where it started from. So working on that, getting into, how do you get that product to market? What does that mean in terms of how people understand how it impacts their experience? Got me kind of excited and hungry to be closer to the building again. And then yeah, one of the things I always talk about is have a rich network. I reached out to someone who reached out to someone who knew the head of product for all of payments. And he said, yeah, we're trying to build out a team in Amsterdam. We're looking for a head of product. Do you want to, then I put up my hand, do you want to join? I was like, absolutely. Went through the interviews and the rest was history. So product journey at Uber and then went off to Netflix. And actually two days ago, that was my first month at Google, I'm enjoying Google. Congratulations, I love anniversaries. My one year anniversary of product school is coming up next month. So first anniversary, thank you. You mentioned some of the other roles that you've had in the past, which is awesome. Having all of that background when you're bringing that to a product role. I'm curious, what does it look like in your day to day? What sort of teams are you interacting with? Cross-functionally? Yeah, so first of all, one of the things I want to kind of talk about is I personally always say that as you kind of go through your career as a product manager especially, what starts to happen actually is more, it correlates with your exposure to risk. That's actually what it, you know, that's what's happening. So the more you're going sort of up the product management ladder, the more risk you're kind of responsible for, the more you have to be able to preempt those risks or understand them. So that's kind of how I think about it. So the numbers you're impacting, the DAUs, the scope, that's what's happening. It's sort of going exponentially. And obviously just, you know, also differentiating between an IC director of product and a people manager director of product. I'm a people manager, right? But they're also directors of products for IC. So in my day to day, my most important goal in, you know, ultimately is that customers are happy and the team is happy, right? So we talk about, you know, you hear this all the time, people product process. I very much believe in that sort of, we're thinking about it. And I generally like to spend, depends on the day. So, you know, my sort of Mondays and Tuesdays, that's when I kind of spend time with the team. I always say my job is to be a trampoline for your career. So everyone can jump, right? When people can jump higher, some people can jump a little bit, whatever you can jump, you jump as much. Obviously also the jump has risk, which goes back to something depending on how high you jump. But you know, the point is, you know, people can jump. My job is to add a trampoline to that, right? So how do I magnify and amplify that jump for you? You already know how to jump. I'm not teaching you how to jump. I'm just trying to help you magnify and amplify that jump. So I spend a big chunk of my time Mondays, Tuesdays, really meeting the team, spending time with the team, having my team staff, meeting my counterparts in engineering, UX, et cetera. And then sort of Wednesday, Thursdays, I typically think more about this is when I'm thinking, is when we do sort of design reviews, product reviews, is when I spend time in PRDs or presentations. It's also when I recommend having the cross-functional inter-team meetings because you are also part of an ecosystem, right? There are other product managers, other functions. And then Google has this, Netflix also had it. We have a No Meeting Friday. Uber had it on Thursdays. And I really value that. That is my maker time. That's when I write, that's when I think, that's when I reflect, that's when I try to distill what I sort of absorb during the week. So no day is the same, right? It depends on the day, but ultimately the goal is to kind of get, help the team unlock the impact for that week. That's amazing. So as you probably know at product school, one of the things that we're helping organizations do is set up product teams for the first time in many cases or for companies that are looking to transition to having a digital product that's something we help them with. And I love what you were saying about bolstering people's careers and being the trampoline for them. Do you have any like tips or best practices that you would share with an organization who might be setting up their product team for the first time? Depends on the stage of the organization. If they're setting up for the first time, I would imagine that it's a startup or sort of a scale up if, or a company that had a different way of working and now actually wants to take more sort of for, big tech approach to tech. That does happen as well. I think a couple of things. One is you'll be surprised how much natural product talent you can find within the company. And I'm a big believer, I mean, I'm here because Uber had a program that would help you make that transition, right? And there are many other people on my team who've gone through that journey as well. Same thing happens at Google. So I think a huge part is that homegrown, find the people who already obsessed with the product, the ones who are the voice of the customer, the ones who think about, they're not comfortable with things just being as is, right? That's kind of what a PM is always doing is always how can we be better? What is the next problem? How can I look around the corner? So that's one big area I talk about. I think the other one as well is really make sure that depending on the stage of the product, you're clear on, you know, you're not hiring someone to come in and project manage. You actually understand the value that a product manager is going to bring. So spend a bit of time understanding that role. I say that actually to a lot of product managers with product marketing, which you might probably recognize. I'm always on, you know, people, there are a hundred definitions of what product marketing is. And it's like, why don't you just ask the people? So I would actually spend time understanding the craft, meet other people in the industry, meet other companies at the stage. I spend a lot of time speaking to companies that want to hire that first product manager. And then finally, the skill sets are going into the weeds. Depending on where the product is, you might need a different kind of, a product manager at a different stage of their career, right? You know, we hire a product manager that is more icy, hands-on, can unblock the engineering team, help them kind of, you know, really bring that context to the problem. Or if we have multiple product managers, then now I'm thinking about hiring, you know, that manager of product managers, right? So that's also important. Understand the craft, right? Look within and understand sort of where your product is and what you need right now. Yeah. Totally, totally. That's awesome. That's really meaningful advice. A bit of a different swing at things. Sorry? Yeah, absolutely. I'm just looking at the questions on the side. Yeah. These are gonna be coming in from LinkedIn. But yes, I wanna take a stab at the flip side of that. You know, what kind of advice would you have for an aspiring PM who maybe doesn't have that set up in their organization to transition internally and is really looking externally and wants to build up skills and where do they go? And yeah, what kind of directional advice do you have for them? I mean, it's kind of a chicken and an egg, right? So I want to learn the craft, but I need a role to learn the craft and there's a bit of a loop. I think, you know, a couple of things. One is if you're in a company, I do think even if you believe there isn't a natural path, there is a way to kind of almost get yourself through the door by raising your hand up, working with your existing manager and saying, yeah, I wanna go shadow or donate 30% of my time for six months to kind of build that product management experience. And if you have the right kind of manager and ultimately what are we there for? It's to bring the best out of people. If you have the right kind of manager, they should understand that and they probably will say, hey, I'm probably gonna lose you anyway if I don't do this. So let me invest in you and keep you in the company, right? So that's one thing I would say. You'd be surprised a lot of the time in my career, I found roles that were almost created. I've seen that, you know, I've done it. So sometimes it's just the right person. So that's one aspect. The other aspect is actually do the work, right? Like actually put in the hours and do the work. It's easy to say, hey, I wanna be a product manager. You can do one of the courses, but also there are other things you can do there. Like, you know, spend time reading a lot of really good product management books so that you understand many because there isn't one path. Spend a lot of time sort of absorbing that knowledge. I spend a lot of time also finding networks of product managers if you can, some companies have talks or their conferences, go meet other people because when you put yourself out there, maybe somebody will also sort of pick that up that you are naturally, you have a natural product drive. And then I think the other one, this is probably a bit of a stretch, but start a side project, right? Like, you know, start talking about product management, find problems you're excited about, whether it's just writing about it, you're not actually building it, you're actually writing cool into what would be a PRD, so to speak. But those things kind of train your brain to look for the problems and how to think about it from a product sense. And I used to say to a lot of product managers, your entire life can be a PM. It's just, your entire life has lots of problems, right? So I'm constantly saying, there's a fantastic book, The Design of Everyday Things. Read that book. And as you read that book and you go through life, just think, if I was a product manager of this product, how would I, what would I do differently? I was a product manager of this tap. What would I have done? What affordances are there? What signals are there? So you're always training your brain to kind of say, what's the problem? How would I have approached it? What would be the cost of executing? And that's actually helping the neural networks in your brain learn the craft, right? So those would be my three things. Like really look within, you'd be surprised. Try to find that network, that community, put yourself, you know, sort of put yourself out there. And then third, yes, do the work. One thing when I was first getting into product marketing that I was doing, I was putting myself through school. You know, I couldn't take on unpaid internships for an example. I just couldn't, I was paying my way. But I wanted to develop this product marketing experience. So actually before I ended up at product school, I was working at a restaurant full time. And on the side, I reached out to a candle company on Instagram that I was buying candles from and asked them if they wanted me to put together a marketing strategy for them. You go. And it was just a way exactly like you're saying to execute that aspect of your brain and show something for it at the end. Like, look, I did something. She's being productive. So many startups are out there if you could somehow, you know, you know, I mean, yes, within reason, of course, like you have bills to pay and all of that. But yeah, find that time and no one's going to turn down free, free time, especially if you were, you know, you have other skills that people sort of recommend. So that's exactly what I'm talking about when I say put yourself up there. Yeah. And I add that color because I think that sometimes people think, well, I don't even know where to start with my own project. And I think even if you can identify a small need to help somebody else with, people are so thankful, you know. Exactly. Amazing. Kind of in line with that, a little bit divergent though. I want to talk a little bit about inspiration for you and where in your, it could be dated day, it could be kind of that North Star in your life. Where are you finding inspiration? Wow, yeah. So inspiration for me comes in many, many, many different ways. So I generally think one of the biggest things you can do as a product manager is to learn almost like training yourself how to think and pack and match, right? So I'm always trying to find things that draw a parallel for me. It could be art, it could be some other problem space that has absolutely nothing to do with mine. I spend a lot of time unpacking and reading about other products and what other product managers are doing. I spend a lot of time doing that. And I really sort of really care about the craft. So I spend a lot of time also following some of the, there are a lot of awesome, that sort of product Twitter is amazing, right? There are a lot of people talking about different aspects. So I spend a lot of time absorbing all of that. But I really think that what you, if you, ultimately what you're doing is problem solving. And so, what you're doing is trying to figure out and look into problems. I'm very much into, for example, astrology. So I spend a lot of time reading about that and reading about what new thing is coming in the astrological space. I spend a lot of time thinking about sports because guess what? When I'm on, I play tennis, when I'm on tennis court, there's a strategy, right? There's a problem, there's a goal, there's an approach and there's a strategy. So all these kind of tangential things that are constantly training your brain really help. And then just also it's great to, I mean, ultimately if you can find that inner calm, right? That inner sort of energy and excitement, wherever it comes from, you can channel that into the work, right? So you keep your soul and then you channel that into the work. So I'm, I play the piano, I love my tennis and I spend time trying to be better at those things. And they actually helped me be better at, you know, the sort of nine to five, although it's never really nine to five, of course. But yeah, nine to five. Funny joke as we are both coming to you live at 10, 20 PM. Yeah, just a little, just a little over time. That's awesome. And I, you know, I recently had the opportunity to take a vacation. And I don't know how this looks in your life, but in that one week of pure vacation where I just shut off slack, you know, like shut off email, I felt like I came back rejuvenated. I hit the ground running. Yeah, it's crazy. Like you're saying, when you have that time to breathe and that space, I think it does more for you than just always being on the grind. Exactly. And if there's one feedback I'll give to most product managers is, do you have enough time in your week to think? And are you carving out time to refresh? Because it's just go, go, go, go, go, go, go. And you are not going to see the patterns and you're not going to see the problems and connect the dots if you don't take a step back. You can't take a step back when you're stressed and you're, you know, the best thing I can probably tell you to do is like have eight hours of sleep. It's probably the best thing ever because your brain will be just on a different plane. So absolutely, everything you just said, I delete all my apps when I go on holiday. I just delete them. I delete the Gmail, I delete calendar, I delete everything. So I can't even, like I'm just, I'm off. That's great. Yeah, I mean, that's, it's so important. It's so important. And we know, right? We know all the studies coming out about health and the long-term importance of taking care of ourselves. So on that, you've had an amazing product journey and it sounds like your background has been super, super diverse. You've worked across different continents, across companies. Can you tell us a little bit about the role of diversity for you personally and kind of what that looks like in your, in your role? Absolutely. I mean, my entire existence is kind of, you know, diverse, right? And like you just said, you know, as a black woman, as a woman, as, you know, a Nigerian girl, you know, now supporting a team at this, you know, big tech company that has a household name. I do think one big part is if you can see it, you can be it. I always say that. So part of what I kind of really push for is it's very important that we show and celebrate those examples because it gives somebody who's sitting there, you know, thinking about a career or whatever. Oh, it's possible. I can actually, you know, I see it. So, oh, okay. It's possible. There's something that kind of unblocks. I think the other part as well is I used to have a colleague that always said the magic happens in the confluence of our differences. And I love that. Yeah, exactly. It's just so profound. I mean, we talked about that from the diversity of the different roles, like at the, you know, design engineering and actually the magic happens in that intersection. But it's the same with, you know, the diversity of our backgrounds, right? We all bring a different facet. When I was doing with my team, when we were doing a lot of work in Brazil, it was interesting how people on my team who were Indian, me being Nigerian, we could relate to some of the paradigms in Brazil. We're like, oh yeah, we get that. Oh yeah, you know, the things, and you could bring that to the product. And I think the other one as well is that if you're going to build for the world, you kind of have to represent the world. So, obviously there's so many facets of diversity, but I'm, for me, the growth for me now is actually going even further and trying to really be conscious of what I don't know, right? Because there's so many facets of diversity, the obvious sort of pillars, but then there's so many other things. Like am I being inclusive for people who have kids? Am I inclusive for people with, you know, who for, you know, as it comes to accessibility in the product? You know, I remember once we had a Figma file and it was blue, true story, blue and purple for some mockups. And guess what? Someone on my team was color blind. Never had that problem before. So blue and purple, if you're not, you know, that actually is the same for somebody who was color blind. And so we had to make it blue and orange. And since then I'm so aware of, you know, what we're even doing within the company. So, you know, all of this to say, the more we can have multiple facets, the more we can see new perspectives around problems. The more we can bring that magic out in the conference of the differences. So I'm, you know, I'm a big believer. Yeah. And the numbers rely, by the way, right? Yeah. That's true. The products actually are better. So how do you take diversity and turn it from something that, you know, maybe companies or individuals are speaking about and really making it concrete and actionable? So the one big thing, and this is sort of, I say this about careers too, by the way, I always say if you were to ask a PM to go build a product, no PM would ever say, my goals, my sort of key result is to launch it next year. That would never be a goal. It would be clear things, you know, we want to increase this, we want to move that, we want to make sure we do at least two of these or three of that or whatever. There'd be concrete steps towards it. I say that about a career, PM your career, right? So I get promoted next year. And I say that about diversity. You can't solve a problem that you aren't able to articulate. You can't even come up with somebody else a question about strategy. Strategy is ultimately a very clear diagnosis of problems and deciding to focus on the subset of them with some guiding principles. That's really what it is. So you can't solve a problem and come up with a strategic approach to anything if you don't actually understand the problem. So tactically, how do you educate yourself in solving the problem? And for me, what I do is I'm always talking about it. Mike, for some people, it's uncomfortable. Get comfortable with that discomfort. That's when we're growing. That's what I say. The allies are the people who want to be allies within companies. They sort of lean into also talking about it. My ex-engineering partner at Uber just even had this post about it, right? And how, you know, he called out how it changed how we interviewed, right? Making sure that there were people in a panel, right? Making sure there were people reflective of different women and different backgrounds on a panel because then you can actually see how that candidate interacts and whether, you know, they're ready to have an inclusive perspective. So I think, you know, there's a lot, there's sort of equal and there's equity. We'll talk about this, but the sort of educating yourself about the problem, educating yourself about how we have so many misrepresented, I want to call them memes, but they're like memes. Like it slows down the pipeline or it's, you know, you will have to drop your standards. There are so many studies that show that those don't hold through and actually you end up with a much better product, ultimately, and therefore, the numbers for the business move. So tactically, concierge talking about it, right? Setting some very clear goals, whether it's we'll make sure, Rooney will make sure that before we close on a candidate, we must have a woman or, you know, someone of color, someone who is not straight, right? Someone who, like whatever, you know, come up with things like that. And then reporting, how are we actually doing? I always say, if you wanted to create a dinner party and you wanted a diverse set of people, but you put a paper bag over your head, you have no idea who sat at the table, how on earth are you gonna know who's sitting at the table? You kind of have to talk about it. So this is my thing. Yeah, talk about the problems and set a plan. Amazing. I mean, if those aren't great words to wrap us up on, I don't know what else is. Problem is the very epicenter of product, right? Exactly, right? That's awesome. AB, I wanna be respectful of your time this evening. I know we are approaching probably bedtime, at least for me. Thank you so, so much for tuning in this evening and sharing all of these amazing insights with our audience, with me. I know that I've certainly learned a lot from you. Thank you so much for having me and I can see the chat is blowing up. Thank you so much for all sort of tuning in as well. Fantastic. Next time we'll get you in your time zone to help everybody. I'm looking forward to that, but we can be inclusive about the time zones too. Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, AB, you have a wonderful rest of your evening and thank you to everybody who tuned in this evening. Take care.