 All right. Thanks for coming in, folks. We got the burn wrapped up. What I'd like to do is jump into an after-action review for the horse creed prescribed burn. And is an AAR really necessary? I guess I'm a little concerned. Did we do something wrong? I know we got the spot fire and everything, but I guess I just don't really understand the AARs. I'm kind of concerned that we got some trouble or something. No, no, the purpose of the after-action review is to focus on the day, take a look at the day's events, and focus on the positives, and identify the negatives, and capture those things. So the next time we conduct a burn, similar to this, or any burn, any interagency endeavor, that we take knowledge with us, and we pass it along. It's not about who, it's about what, OK? It's not about blame. It's not about he said, she said. We're just here to try to learn from these events and become better at what we do. A structured debriefing for lack of a word? You know, I try to do them as a burn boss after every burn, after every day on every burn, and even on wildfires, every chance I get to conduct after-action reviews. Once you get familiar with them, they're great tools. I mean, I'm hearing a lot more of them. I just have never really had the opportunity to sit through one. So I had some conceptions coming in. Well, and it would be great if you could take some notes for us. Sure, I'd be happy to. And one thing that's really important is we capture these ideas, because we'll all forget when we drive out of here. But what I'd like to do is capture these ideas, put them in the burn plan and the whole package. So the next person that comes in could take it off the shelf and see the after-action review roll up and the lessons learned. Now what we don't do is, again, we don't assign blame. So it's not about, I know I'm babbling here, but we'll get it going. It's not about who, it's about what, OK? So what would be captured in Pete's notes would be, for example, the drip tortures weren't full. Now if we knew that Leith didn't fill the drip tortures, we don't need to put that in the notes. We just identify drip tortures need to be filled the night before. And we leave names out of it. I see. OK, well, that's really not an investigation. No, no, it's not an investigation. It's not a review. It's a fact-finding to learn lesson. It's going to take about 20 minutes. And it'd be good stuff. We were going well, had a good window. We were going for it. Having a good time down there. And we got to about where that flag is roughly. And the prep was terrible. I don't know who the joker was. It was doing the prep in there. But it was really terrible. We still had a window. We kind of continued to push down south. OK, so if I understand you're right, you feel like the prep was not up to specs. Yeah, it was terrible. OK, does anyone agree with Chris on the prep? Going back to the rushing the briefing point, I think another thing that could have been discussed that wasn't really discussed in the briefing was trigger points and contingency planning. I think it all worked out well with the spot. But I think that that could have been discussed on certain weather, certain parameters were hit that trigger point was there and we could have maybe eliminated that spot. But ending on a positive note, I think everybody's situation awareness was excellent with the spot and how everybody reacted to the spot. And then we continued on with the rest of the burn. I thought that was excellent. That's an excellent example of why we do after action reviews. Scott brought up trigger points. We do it on wildfires. I didn't bring it up in briefing. There's no reason why we couldn't have set up trigger points on the burn. It's a real good capture. I'm glad you spoke up on that one. Yeah, we asked Travis to come down and give us a hand and I did the best I could line him out. We just got so much going on with IFPM meetings, FPA meetings, stuff to do, targets to meet, no budget. Yeah, I think we definitely had to talk. We drove out there to the creek and we were at the creek and we talked about it for a little while. Then I kind of left him on his own and be honest with you, I probably left it as prep it as you would want to hold it and I didn't give him a whole lot of direction. But I would love to back in the old days, I sure would have had time been out there handing in with him, but I just got so many meetings to go to these days. Well, you know, I think we all know how you feel, Pete, but all those meetings and all those pressures, they weren't out here today. We got to focus on today's events. So Travis, you're up there, did you feel the wind shift? Oh, yeah. OK, what were you thinking as a holding boss when the wind shifted? Just got to deal with it. OK, any changes in resources or anything? Or you were just kind of waiting to see? Yeah, just doing my job. Did you give any additional directions or assignments to folks or? Not until we got that spot fire. OK, Travis, back to you on holding. Final say on this, seems to be a group consensus that the ignition pattern might have been a little quick. Your thoughts? Yeah, people do things differently. Everybody's got their way of doing things. How would you have let it, if you were ignition? I probably would have slowed it up a little bit, especially if I knew that there was some prep issues. And at that point, that's the situation you're in. You can't change that now. So what can you control? It's what you're, how much fire you're putting on the ground. So you're in the situation. You can complain about it all you want. You know, what you can change is. Now, did you talk to Chris? Did you tell him you thought the ignition was too fast? No. Chris, did you mention that you thought the holding was inadequate? No. So what do you guys think? Is there? I'll agree that, yeah, we probably could have slowed down a little bit, especially we had it really good at the beginning. Had we known about the prep a little bit, we could have slowed down, got that stuff in place. And we've kind of got a little bit ahead of ourselves. I'll agree to that. You know, we should have scouted that out a little bit better as well. And yeah, I agree. I agree, we probably could have slowed down a little bit, but we had a good window. OK. So it sounds like, Pete, I hope you're getting this stuff. On the spot fire lathe, as you responded to the spot, you had mentioned something about knowing the wind would do what it did? Yeah, it's about that time every day, it kind of shifts. It comes right out of the west like that. Now, did you bring that up? I don't remember hearing that. Well, I told my guys. I didn't feel like you guys would listen, to be honest. I mean, a lot of times these things get going, and the engine people are just holding. So I didn't say anything. Maybe I should have, but would you guys have listened? You bet. I mean, you're one of the best firefighters in this zone. Everybody knows that. You've been here forever. Well, I just, you know, I didn't feel like you guys were going to go along. I don't know, it was a rushed situation. Maybe I'd have brought it up. And maybe if you could have asked each of us, so you kind of did your briefing, and then we were lighting it, so. OK, that's a good point. We should have definitely could have included you more. Scott, you've been pretty quiet over there. Yeah, I haven't said a whole lot today. Why? Just quiet in nature. Today, Curtis, I noticed a couple of things. One, I believe that in the morning that there was a rush in the briefing, I don't think it was as thorough as it could have been. Also, with that said, we didn't discuss trigger points and contingency planning, which became a factor today with the spot fire. With all that said, ending on a positive note, I felt that all of us collectively had a good situational awareness. We all attacked the spot fire, and then Chris and Travis could move on with the burn back down into Horse Creek there. So I think overall it was a great day. All right, well, those were excellent suggestions. I'm glad you spoke up. Well, you know, Junior, I mean, the first part was pretty good. The southern portion was terrible. I mean, that's a big contributing reason why we had to. I think we nailed that down, Chris, that the specs were an issue. What I'd like to focus on is why the specs weren't right. That prep was not up to the specifications. Holding folks, how'd you feel about the test fire? I think we all got together once the test fire was lit and we were in agreement that it was being the initial objective. The test fire was going well. OK. One of the ground rules I probably didn't bring up is not to interrupt folks. Just let them say what they need to say. We'll give you plenty of time, Chris. Lathes, how'd you feel about the ignition? It was good. I mean, everything was going good. We accomplished it. It looked like it would accomplish the task that we had set ahead. OK. Well, the problem was we got down to about where that flag was. And the prep went to minimal or nonexistent almost. I don't know who the pinhead did the prep was, but I mean, it was pitiful. I mean, my kids could do a better job on prep than that. Well, the person who did the prep was Travis. And pinhead's probably not the right word we need to use here. But Travis, you did do the prep last week, if I remember right. Is that correct? Yep. And how'd you feel about it? No, I don't believe I gave him a copy of the burn plan. It's probably somewhere in burning 101, but I think I missed that day. Well, you know, the other part of it, who even scouted the line? We're working that out, Chris. We'll get there. Yeah, let me finish there, Bob. I loved you back in the old days. We sure would have had time, been out there hand in hand with him, but I just got so many meetings to go to these days. Well, you know, I think we all know how you feel, Pete. But all those meetings and all those pressures, they weren't out here today. We've got to focus on today's events. It'd be nice if we could make that go away, but we can't. Safety still needs to be the number one concern. We had stuff over the hill. That dog wouldn't hunt on our district. Well, we're not on your district either, Chris. So let's keep focused on today and what we did today. Well, we wouldn't lose it at our district either. Well, you can have the next burn. We'll come over there. But I want to close this loop on the PREP standards. OK, the specifications. What did you get to work with, Travis? What I'd like to focus on is why the PREP was not up to the specifications. Well, I mean, not an excuse, but where the agency I come from, you get around a historic cabin, and you know, there's a lot of issues about. Take only pictures and leave only footprints. Now, OK, so who gave you the, where did you get your instructions from for the PREP? How did you achieve this? Oh. That'd be me. That was you, Pete? I asked Travis to come down and give us a hand. OK. Now, Travis, do you feel like Pete's instructions were clear, or did you not understand them? He, he, you know, he just, he called me down here to do some PREP and so, and I did it. And Pete, maybe you could enlighten us. Yeah. Really what happened, you know, we got so much going on and so much pressure to get this stuff done. I asked to come down and give a hand, because some of my other folks were busy doing other things for kind of a small district as it is. You know, I had Leith and Scott busy doing other things. So I had him do it. And really, I just kind of threw it at him, showed him a map, drove him out to the road at the creek there, and let him have at it and just kind of, so I'm just as much to blame. So do you think you could have given, given Travis a little better briefing, maybe outline the specs? Because I wrote him in a burn plan, but I didn't have a chance to meet with him. Yeah, so without a doubt, should have spent a little more time doing that, you know, especially someone, bringing someone in outside their own turf. Should have been there to help him out a little bit. You know, maybe we can figure something out. I mean, certainly I relied on his expertise to ease his judgment. But if he felt he didn't have guidance, then something for both of us to take home. OK. Travis, does that sound fair? Yeah, I mean, I could have done some things on my part. And like I said, you know, the prep on this side, nobody really had any issues with that. But like I said, I got around that man back home. If I did what I did back there, right there around that historic cabin, man, I'd never hear the end of it. And then I did want to, you know, get out there with somebody because you can't put branches back on a tree, you know? So that's kind of where I was coming from. But I could have tried to get Pete or you out there to look at it. Was there anything else other than the prep that triggered that spot fire? And you have the reasons why that spot fire happened? Well, you know, everybody does things differently, so I mean. If you were running ignition, would you have followed the same pattern, Chris, dude? Yeah, same pattern. I just don't think I would have gone that fast right there. And that's probably a good point. We had a good window. We were going for it. I probably should have scouted that line out ahead at a time on some of that, for sure. I saw that first piece. It looked good, I assumed. And that was a bad deal on my part, assumed that the rest of it was going to be the same. And so yeah, we probably, at least once we got down into there, we were probably going a little bit too fast or a few things as far as we had the wind shift. The prep wasn't done. We probably burned a little bit too fast and nobody had scouted that out. Had you scouted that out? I had. I'm the burn boss and I hadn't had time to walk it. So that's something I'm taking home from this, is I've got to get out there more often. So I'm kind of sliding into the third question here as to why things happen. But I just want to make sure that what we can confirm what actually happened is we saw a little change in fire behavior. And mainly due to a couple reasons that the prep wasn't up to standard. And the ignition was probably moving a little too fast. Are we all in agreement on that, you two guys? Yeah, I agree with that. OK, all right, cool. Does anyone disagree with three things took place out there? Four things. Wasn't a good scouting? Wasn't a good briefing for you for the prep? That's one. Two, the wind shifted. Three, the ignition was a little fast. And four, the aligned prep was inadequate for the fuels. That's what I've gathered. Does anyone disagree with that? OK, what do we do next time? What do we learn from today? And what worked well and what didn't work well? One thing that worked really well right off the bat was the way of having that local knowledge on where resources were and how to get into those structures, because it would have taken some of the other folks. It may not have been from here quite a bit longer to get in. OK, that's a good point. Travis, what worked for you? What didn't work? What didn't work was me on the prep. But I learned some stuff from that. I made an assumption. And on a smaller picture, again, using the local knowledge or even the people that were giving me direction, if I'm not getting it, I need to be a little more forceful in letting folks know that I need some more info. Because I'm more than willing to do the work. I just don't want to do it wrong, which I did this time. But Curtis, we went to take a little bit off of as far as the what. We could have slowed down a little bit. And I could have checked that out ahead of time as far as the prep. We definitely could have burned a little bit slower, communicated a little better with Travis. OK, these are good points. I haven't said a whole lot today. Why? Just quiet in nature. But I feel that a couple of things that I recognize today was the rolling and I'm just quiet in. He did. He did. He did. He did. He did. He did. He did. He did. He did. He did. He did. He did. He did. He did. He did. I used to see Curtis' mouth to start getting wider and wider right when somebody and I said it. I was like, remember, the camera's only focusing on you, so it doesn't see that. Oh, OK. This is what you would do. I'm the one that has to have Barry. This is where you would be. Find your happy spot right there. He'll be looking at you. This is where you would be. We're still rolling. Whenever you're ready to do it. Today I noticed a couple of things that I think we could talk about. One is the overall rush. Stop! I was turning the other way. I was going to get over there. I kept my back turned. We're not going to get over this one. Turn around. It's the same time. OK, so you did. You're not going to get over this one. Am I on this? You're on. OK. OK. We're ready? We're rolling. OK. Today, Curtis, I noticed a couple of things. I believe that in the morning that there was a rush in the briefing. I don't think it was as thorough as it could have been. Also, with that said, we didn't discuss trigger points and contingency planning, which became a factor today with the spot fire.