 Welcome to the 21 convention podcast. I'm Steve Mayater and I'm your host of today's episode and today We got fitness expert paleo revolutionary 21 convention speaker alumni Keith Norris and man Keith is an amazing guy. I know him real well personal friend of mine. I've worked out with him actually met him in 2010 before he was the speaker at the convention when Anthony Johnson came to Austin, Texas to work out on a very specific machinery Called the air X fit. It was one of the first versions of it and actually funny enough The day we recorded this was the day before Keith was going to talk with NASA About using the air X fit in space For NASA's astronauts to work out when they were orbiting around, you know, the universe in any case Man, just such an amazing guy. What we actually talk about on this podcast is actually to me far more interesting Not only is it about the typical fitness stuff about gaining muscle, you know, hitting your peak performance losing fat But it's about living a new way of life now Keith is the founder of paleo FX. If you haven't heard of it Go to paleo FX calm. It's actually an event that is the defining Paleo conference in the world. It's coming up here April 2015 towards the end of the month I'll be there over a hundred paleo speakers are going to be there anybody who's anybody in that world You know, whether that has to do with diet exercise even going into meditation different ways of life building different communities Man, they're going to be there and it's just an ultimate meeting of the minds and ultimate networking of a true belief That can change you and what we're talking about here on this podcast is how not only can we learn a different way to eat? A different way to use our bodies, but a different way to think a different way to socialize so that man you Could hit your maximum potential and be what you are truly born to be Man, you will not be disappointed in this So check it out leave a comment down below Subscribe to our channel and get involved with the dialogue that we're building here at the 21 convention And of course, don't forget to check out the 21 convention comm check out the University that we've got going on there the different webinars that we have the different speeches coming up and get yourself involved with this dialogue To be the ideal man Hey, here. I am with Keith Norris man. I don't even know where to begin with you. You You're a part of a fishing exercise in Austin, which is an amazing thing to talk about ARX fit but Paleo FX is coming up here around the corner And that is something that you put together how many years ago like this is a this will be the fourth year fourth iteration of it Yeah, man an amazing thing like I remember you guys talking about the first one and Anthony coming out actually. Yeah, sure. He helped us out quite a bit actually Yeah, and he always talks about this in this another thing that surely we'll talk about but that's how he got his ARX fit and so he has one of the ones that's discontinued one of the home versions Yep of this amazing machine that Mark Alexander spoke about on His podcast with the 21 convention, but also I'm sure we'll get into so what's going on man Tell me what's happening with you? Well, I'm getting ready to fly out to Pensacola tomorrow morning Gonna be talking at the IHM C Which is a contract branch for NASA and DARPA and we're gonna be talking about Training astronauts in zero gravity conditions. So that's gonna be a super super cool conference Man, I gotta ask how did you come into contact with those people because that just sounds like such a particular? I mean, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, well, it just so happens that the the CEO of IHM C was at the ancestral health symposium in Berkeley over the summer and he heard me talk about Training astronauts in space and he was like what is this piece of equipment that you're talking about this this ARX piece of equipment? So that kind of kicked the whole thing off He invited Mark and I to come out a few months ago out to the compound and so we went out there and Got to look around at some of the absolutely crazy Innovations that are going on in spaceflight. It's mind-boggling what these guys are doing and You know to be a couple meat heads out there walking around and actually having a piece of equipment that they could put to use potentially You know in a prolonged space flight to Mars So the big drawback and in the big hurdle in getting astronauts to Mars is getting them there strong enough to be able to do something why they're actually at Mars Because the first crews that go up are gonna have to do some physical labor and yes It's gonna be you know a little less gravitational pull on them But if you look at the science of how beat up these guys are after six months and zero gravity conditions With the training that they do right now, which is highly highly inadequate They're not gonna be able to do anything once they get there So this is this is the major hurdle. This is a major hurdle to Exploration of Mars and beyond so you know it's it's crazy just to talk about space for a second I know a guy that went to space. I mean, I don't know him well, but I Basically was invited on one of his yachts, but he's the guy that started Cirque du Soleil Guy and he Paid he's one of the he was a space tourist, but he did it through the Soviets Sure, and his training was insane. Yeah, it was almost like I forget the amount of money but it was like this huge amount of millions of dollars or something that we couldn't even comprehend and It was non-refundable so basically if he didn't pass this physical at the end It was like well, you're not going if he was sick if he if there's one thing off Sure, yeah, it up there and you know He said it was like one of the most surreal things, but his training was insane to go up there now He wasn't up for long, but I imagine God the atrophy would be insane. Yeah, it's crazy if you talk to these guys who have been on the ISSN that have been you know flying the International Space Station You talked to guys that have been up there as a Canadian astronaut right now I can't recall his name. He was on the Joe Rogan show not too long ago, which which actually led me to start Researching what it was that astronauts did because he he talked about What it was like upon reentry into Earth's gravity and he just said it was like an elephant sitting on his chest He was just devastated and he was weak could barely move You know going up a flight of stairs after he got back was all that he could do I mean it was it's crippling and these guys are training for up to four hours a day While they're in space, which okay, so here's the other element. They're training that long for Results that are not there Yeah, let's face it. That's four hours that they could be otherwise employed doing serious research in space But but they can't because they have to do something to keep To keep some kind of anibalism going on and it's anyway, I mean, that's a whole other topic We could spend hours. Yeah, totally, but it's super interesting That's just so cool because your backstory is you are an athlete you push your body to the limit you want to be bigger stronger faster and You know then you went off into the real-life career You came back to fitness and what you bring what you guys have a really interesting team of guys, I mean Skyler, you know, he's partnered with you guys He's bringing his own thing to the table Mark Alexander, you know bringing his thing to the table But what you're bringing to the table is actually very unique and also what you started which is the paleo FX Man, that's amazing. So you're you're one of these few guys Well, there's a lot of people bringing technology to the table but hands down I think one of the fundamentals of what you believe in is Get the body back to how we were made to be Yeah, could you talk a little bit about that, you know, and how that played into fitness and you know Your first introduction into paleo and what paleo's become sure that sort of stuff I mean if you if you look at what we are as human beings and as a species you have to look through an evolutionary lens Because because what you cannot take away is the millions of years of evolution That it took to get us to where we are right now Now we live in an environment. It's anything but paleolithic and That's that's good and it's bad. Okay, so there's two sides to that Obviously the fact that you and I are talking right now Use technology, right? That's I mean even what 15 years ago. This would have been a lot. Yeah, right That's gonna happen. Yeah, but here we are sitting talking to each other using utilizing technology and that's fantastic That's a fantastic utilization of technology but on the other hand we've put ourselves in the position to where we can Super highly refined carbohydrates to the point that where it is devastating to the human body and We don't really realize it until the gig is up, right until you've got diabetes and still you've got heart disease Until you have Alzheimer's which we're starting to show is a type 3 diabetes Wow, so So we have to look if we're talking about human health We have to look through an evolutionary lens to see what it is that the body requires for health and What it is it absolutely wrecks the human body now Technology is an awesome tool used in the right way So the whole thing of paleo FX is let's look through this evolutionary lens and see what we need and And let's let's leverage some modern technology to help us along the way I mean, it's not like we turn our backs, you know, we're not going back to the cave and spear That's nobody in the paleo movement or nobody in the upper crust of the paleo movement is saying that That's not all we're saying we're saying we're gonna look through this evolutionary lens to see what the body needs To perform at a high in a high level and we are gonna leverage technology to help us get there Yeah, and that's essentially what the what the symposium is in a nutshell Yeah, man, you know, this is interesting because paleo for me I'll tell you my story with it next day I started when you recommended the diet to me and I'd met you back in 2009 or 2010 I forget and that's when I first got introduced to the early models of the ARX machine and just you know five Years ago, it's changed a lot Dramatically, I'm sure I mean Mark was talking about it. I came in and saw you guys working out I I really can't wait to get working out on them again because there's nothing like them but That all being said, you know, I was working out like a madman from 15 to about 30 I didn't work out at all. So my body was really out of shape and just a lot of toxicity through lifestyle on top of that but Man when I started working out, you know, it didn't matter what I did Well, I was probably doing it wrong. In fact, I know I was doing it wrong But following kind of like a Bill Phillips thing or you know, P90 X thing and stuff to get me to in actually I'm grateful for it because it got me working out But it wasn't necessarily the most efficient and best way to use actually what my body was made to be But man, I could not lose weight. I could not lose that 10 15 pounds I could not feel healthy and I could not think healthy until I actually switched my diet in a conversation I had with you the other day and I want to hear more about this. You actually said Fitness comes first diet comes second. Yep, and I was like, man Yeah, I've always done fitness first, but diet was so necessary. So I always just thought like well if I changed my diet I can move into, you know, kind of a more optimal self, but you're saying something different here Yeah, I should have I should have put a caveat to that. I should have said smart fitness comes first Before diet because there's a lot of wrong fitness ideas out there and I think, you know, you know that I know your audience knows that there's a lot of Hairbrained ideas about what fitness is and I and I think too. There's a lot of misconceptions of That there is a difference between high-level performance and health Yeah, man, so right so I can I can use the best and some very very smart training techniques and train myself to the point of unhealth because I'm looking for performance and I'm not saying that's wrong I'm just saying if you're a high performer and I was it one time if you're a super high performer You're leaving health behind And that's just the fact you are you're pushing your body beyond where it would be naturally And you have to do that to compete and that's cool, right? And it just so happens that People's competitive careers happen when they are younger and if they're smart after the competitive careers they shift gears and Move more into the health realm Which you know if I've done anything right in my life and I've made a lot of mistakes, but that's one thing I got right, right. I got that right I realized without You kind of intuitively knowing that okay, this training cannot go on forever and passed my competitive career Now I need to start focusing on the health aspects still utilizing the same tools. I'm still utilizing weights I'm still training relatively heavy But it's different the intensity is a little bit less a frequencies less the volume is less everything's less But I'm still a very very healthy person now, and I'm an okay performer for being as old as I am so So I've been able to and that's kind of my thing right now is being able to ride that You know the hairy edge between health and performance. Yeah, and I'm geared right now How would you define health then? You know what distinguishes that? Yeah, so that's the that's the $10,000 question, right? Actually is health well, they you know the the first answer is absence of disease, which that's a lame answer, right? But you know So the question comes up. Okay, can you get if if disease is absent? Are you able then to get healthier healthier healthier? and I think the answer that is you know Dan John makes this point trainer Dan John a lot of your listeners Might know of Dan John's a strength and conditioning coach super super cool guy But he kind of states it and I like this so absence of disease. Yes, but you know is your kidney Kidneying correctly is your liver livering correctly or all your organs functioning correctly is your blood work dialed in Is your thyroid operating? Well, are you sleeping solid and long? Are you you know a lack of headaches? Do you feel good? And I mean those is that in my estimation is healthy, you know, this is an interesting thing because I Don't know if you ever think about this, but I think about this all the time in the social realm in the mental health realm in the relationships and health realm, but something like happiness Is This idea because a lot of times we're so unhappy that we need to title it something like health Is something that we need to title because we're so unhealthy now Where if we were living in a more primitive lifestyle and again, you said it We're not recommending that we go into caves or anything like that or don't have penicillin or don't have You know a needle and thread and in but in how we use our bodies how we stress ourselves how we You know sleep, you know, these are some things that we were really made to be and evolved for millions And I actually want to make this point because I talk about this in terms of social theory You know, we've had agriculture 10,000 years. We've probably had modern society for two 3,000 years If you look at human Homo sapien Homo sapien form, that's I mean, it's estimated but 400,000 years 300,000 years humanoid form millions of years. Yeah, if we took the Homo sapien form that is one person For every thousand people, you know our example of living in our society today, you know, man That's we it's basically like if there was a representation of humanity that was 1,000 people One of them is how we live now with the excess stress with the diet the way We you know all that sort of stuff and that same 1% or that not 1% point 1% has all the diseases of You know cancer which could have existed before but not anywhere near on our level diabetes You know just in actually when we get into mental illness. There's a whole bunch of other stuff, too So it's a really interesting thing that paleo tied in that's one of the reasons why I asked you about Health, you know, it's like health wasn't an issue or it wasn't a word back then and the way we see it It was a burning leg or you know, I guarantee if you go to to hunter-gatherer Societies that are you know the few that still remain now and you ask them what is health They would look at you like what do you mean? Yeah as opposed to what? Yeah, you know They would and I'm sure they would be you know but funneled by the question. Yeah You mean something as opposed to being dead? Yeah, you're either healthy or dead I mean, that's kind of the two in you know, of course there was infection sure got a laceration You know, we're not talking about that. We're talking about these other very specific things that are now dramatic in our life Yeah, yeah when we talk about health Or lack thereof and we talk about metabolic disease, you know, ever how you wanted to find that You know, I would bet everything I own that they don't have a word for that. Yeah, there's no need to have a word for it You know, it's in we're not trying to be doctors here anything like this But it's just we know so many people and we talked to him but you know, one of my friends. Yeah, he's in man He's going to doctors. He should be going to doctors He's got a form of MS and I was like man Just experiment a little, you know, here's here's Paul Jimenez book and check that out see if you like it You know in and again seek science, but one of my things is like man if you are not Getting your diet right and getting the things that you can control. Yeah sleep, right? Your point of reference and where to start and what medicine can do for you is going to be very very skewed For a guy like me, you know, I've done a lot of stuff with my diet and still my blood pressure sits a little bit high But then I've gotten it lower and I've done some bizarre like very, you know, it's almost like an unlivable form of diet Sure. Yeah. No, man. It's it's just such a key and important thing And it's so hard to do. I mean god man It took me it's like pulling teeth to switch my diet and it was like also pulling teeth to To get my sleep patterns better. Sure. Yeah, it's you know for some people. It's it's tough right because You know, we live in a 24-7 society right now so for somebody its sleep is huge Let's just dive into sleep You have so many other options at nine o'clock at night to do Rather than crash out, right? I mean You being in Austin Austin wakes up at nine o'clock, right? I mean that's just it in It is that cool and is that fun? Yeah, absolutely, but is it healthy so you you you have to you have to come back to what do you want? It and it's no difference than performance. Do you want to be an athlete? Awesome, just realize it during this time your health is gonna take a hit That's cool, but just realize that your health is gonna take it so we all have We all have choices and I'm not saying that anybody has to live like a monk to be healthy And I'm not saying that at all, but I'm what I am saying is that the body can only handle so many stress hits Some people can handle more than others Some people can handle fewer than others So I think the name of the game is to limit your stress hits on the body Yeah, so if you're getting a lack of sleep Shitty diet no exercise. Those are the big those are a huge place. You have a job. That's like super super super stressful I mean, you've got nowhere your body has no relief anywhere Yeah, you see you have to start somewhere either get rid of the stress get the diet dialed in get your sleep Right and you start picking away at these things and do you know the little bit that you can to start Removing these hits from the body and let the body recover And like I say if you happen to be one of those unlucky ones that just happens to be not so resilient Maybe not a Wolverine I mean you're get you're just gonna have to double down on that stuff and that's just the way it is You know, I I'm kind of lucky in the fact that for whatever reason my body can take a lot of abuse but I still Put a lid especially on the things like The things that I know really can kick my ass lack of sleep and stress are two things that can kick my ass and so You know that knows me I put a premium on sleep the world could be crashing down around me And I'm like I'm out of boom and I have the ability to crash through it all But I know if I don't do that I'm ultimately gonna be so ineffective later on to deal with whatever problems have come up I'm gonna be super ineffective Yeah, it's gonna have that much hit on me. So you have to you know know yourself Man, you know when I think about this and when we think about even the history of like human culture Our sleep patterns have only been how they are now, which is all over the place whenever we want and we could do have options For what 120 years? Yeah, it's a product of the industrial revolution and for for most of society actually most culture Because that was only in like the elite areas that could afford the electricity or were wired for yeah, but God man And so like what 70 years 80 years. Yeah, that's just nuts to where we think that's the norm And I think this is what what gets a little bit crazy with finding that balance and really the finding the application to paleo or a primitive Or melding that or moving more towards that paleo lifestyles what I see a lot of people doing and We've all or I've done it man. I've done like crazy is I'll go like all right Well, you know if I just push myself for five minutes a day or for ten minutes a day I can get what my body needs to be fit But then I can squeeze in you know 15 more hours of work and you know I could mix my sleep or I could you know change my sleeping patterns to do da da da da da to be more efficient Whereas really there is kind of like hard stop of like no sleep Eight hours or whatever it is your body tells you some people are different But mine's mine's actually a little bit longer down. Yeah, but um, you know sleep tell you're rested and Use your body in in how it was meant to be used Which it's all kind of a distortion of how we try and do that now and man try and eat healthy or eat You know real food essentially. Yeah is what I like to call it and really I mean, you know If you have if you have an aversion today to the term paleo, I mean Eat real food. I mean, that's what it boils down to yeah, and there are you know and in our Estimations there are some real foods that are a bit dodgy But if I could just give a blanket to it if everybody would just eat real food Including the foods that I would consider dodgy. I mean metabolic disease would pretty much vanish well, and if we threw in the exercise portion of that too and Um That's really not a big change. That's more Education than anything and when you say metabolic disease, what diseases would those be well, you know heart disease diabetes obesity and Then and then the real scourge now is obesity mixed with with muscle loss So you have sarcopenia as well as obesity, which is now you don't Muscle mass is metabolic currency and this is where I was getting back to if you have your exercise program Dialed in you can get away a little bit on the diet side of things and that I think it's that you should but I think you can and that's why my My primary focus was with people is to get their get their exercise patterns dialed in first If I had to put a focus on one day and somebody asked me I can only focus at one thing at a time Absolutely, one thing. Okay, we're gonna get your exercise program dialed in We'll worry about diet later is diet important. Oh, yeah, it's important But if you're a person that can only focus on one thing make one change at a time I would focus on the fitness side of it and I say this all the time as a species We were obligate movers and opportunistic feeders Mmm, and that's just the way I've looked at we had to if you were gonna survive at all You had to be up building shelter hunting moving Even if that meant moving a way from being a lion dinner You had to move you had to be on the move you had to function and you ate whatever the hell you could shove down your pie hole Essentially, it's just that Up until you know a hundred and fifty years ago what you could get down your pie hole was real food Yeah, no such thing as refined carbohydrates. There was no such thing as high concentrations of sugar with no fiber You know all of these things that we have now that we have access to we didn't have access to back then So if it was not poisonous back in the day, and if we could chew it and swallow it You know we ate it now Obviously we made choices as a species to keep you know to go after more palatable foods and that meant meat and fat Because that's where the bang for the buck is I mean we knew that intuitively bang for the buck is in protein and fat well, man, it's it's interesting because even with like all the paleo stuff like Broccoli didn't exist back then. Yeah kale didn't exist and they're all kind of like the same hybrid, right? Or they're yeah, don't give me going on. I'm not I'm not your vegetable. Yeah But it's just our foods are different like our foods have been Modified for size flavor what looks better and actually it was interesting because I used to be a light designer in theater And I was talking to somebody who sells LED lights in Austin And they were actually saying that they're presenting to like Walmart and a GB because their lights It produces a broader spectrum, which is an interesting thing about LED's hold other different thing But it's a different physics like it's like the light changes Sure, so it makes the fruit or the vegetable look more green or more yellow or more red And it's just so interesting I was like man That's an excellent idea because that will totally up the sales sure produce and your produce can be crap and it will look better But man, it's just so interesting how our food comes is that it's been augmented so much And because of that nutrition is lacked and then I guess soil depletion and all that sort of stuff Yeah, it's soil depletion is huge. I'll just throw that out there and in one of the knocks Against the paleo diet, so I've heard this argument before You're kind of going along the lines of the vegetables being the hybrids of you know, and that in those so The same thing has occurred with the with the animals that we eat as well, right? So some of the critiques on paleo. I've heard or well You can't go out and in slaughter a mastodon anymore. So obviously you can't eat a paleo diet and I'm I Mean You have to come into this Discussion with some bit of intelligence obviously you cannot kill a mastodon But does that mean you then go out and just load up on Twinkies totally? Yeah, I mean, yeah You see where I'm going with this. I mean some of the some of the critiques are just asinine Yeah, yeah, so much changes. I'll tell you like right now. I'm off of it We were talking about that because I'm prepping I'm I do stupid stuff man just because I know I'm about to do a challenge diet and fitness exercise So, you know holidays ate, you know, what was put in front of me and then kind of continued as we're recording this in February early February and So I'm like forget it. I haven't had bread in a while Like I'm gonna see what this tastes like But um, but man, let me tell you like when my diet is tight There's so like this is really crazy So there's a couple things that I could say if my diet's totally tight like and I'm eating meat and vegetables Some fruit and just you know in actually eating very little my body's so efficient Yeah, um it if I put Bread in my body or even eat like too much potato like just too much of something that will turn into a sugar in My body is almost instant inflammation. Everybody's body is different, right? Yep, however, if I'm used to that like right now, I'm eating, you know, so it's actually not bad. I eat pretty freaking good, but Putting some of those excess carbohydrates in my body even refined carbohydrates in my body. I don't feel it But I'm totally bloated and this what I want to tell people is like I wake up in the morning in my body Resets I can feel it. I'm good. I'm lighter My joints feel better. I just feel like I can move faster and I'm awesome Put some butter in my coffee. I'm like, alright I'm 100% today and then like 2 3 p.m. Comes along and it's like, you know, let's eat some french fries So, you know, whatever, right? Yeah, and then immediately sets right back into that that kind of dead weight feeling that that becomes like a norm for us and For guys who have not done a paleo diet or something where you're just eating real foods Like don't even worry about that. Just don't eat stuff with labels on them and Man you you feel like how you feel in the morning all the time and then go better and Actually, I'll ask you this when I'm about three or four months on a really tight diet my body then plateaus and I'm sure you run into this with training athletes and training different people when you're working out at A certain pace or you're eating at a diet at a certain pace. What do you do when that plateau hits? You know when it it did stop you start getting a little bit more lethargic with it or slowing down a little bit Yeah, so there's So a lot of times what will happen is people will hit a plateau and they'll define a plateau by a body fat percentage, right? So they've they've used the paleo diet and they've leaned down to a certain point So there's a couple things with that number one is they have a skewed version of what a normal body fat is right You get your information and on body fat levels That well if you're a guy you look at the cover of like men's health or whatever, right? And you look or you look at a bodybuilding contest or some form of advertisement and I can tell you because I know a couple models that They diet down for that photo shoot and they can maintain that body fat level for a couple of days And that's it and then they're back up and they look like a normal fit guy at about ten percent eleven twelve percent body fat Yeah, and when they are fit in the being a normal guy, there's no way they would be on a cover And it's in a place the same for females too So I also have access at the University of Texas the guy the department head and who who runs the Texas scans at the University of Texas and he has access to all the athletes so What's interesting is and I tell my female clients is all the time when they go in I'm like picture a collegiate sprinter female sprinter Think about what that body type looks like how lean that is how cut they are and Then I'll ask what do you think their body fat percentage is of course always gets like around, you know 1210 percent which is ridiculous those girls are at 18 19 percent body fat Because the fact of the matter is if a female drops below about 15 percent body fat she stops menstruating Now can a female body be forced below 15 percent? Absolutely, it can and that just comes from from manipulations of it at that point when you're trying to shove the body that low it does become a calorie content battle and it does require willpower at that point to just not eat and Obviously, there's other pharmaceutical tricks. It can help people get down to super low body fat, but but I think You know like when you're talking about it I think the the whole vision is just skewed because we're so inundated with Advertising of what a fit body looks like and yeah, that's one of those weird cultural distortions And it's such a new thing like I honestly when it when I Back in let's say like 2012. I believe maybe 11 when I really started to Switch to a paleo diet. I just like instantly lost those weeks. I was working out so much Yeah, I was already working out like a like too much or you actually actually we should get into this There's no over-training. There's just under recovery. Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting concept It's a little bit of an inflammatory statement and I can back that up in a bit Yeah, man, so I just I lost all this weight almost instantly. I mean like it was well took about four six weeks or something, but then after that it was just like Like it was just taking you know like yeah all this stuff and it was just crazy man It was like getting like too small and actually wasn't lifting then either So, you know the muscle mass wasn't really like I saw how little muscle. I actually had you know The patting of fat around it and um man during that whole time I Realized I was like wow What image am I trying to get to I don't even care anymore like why and that's a whole nother Emotional thing that people got a sword out in their head, you know and get through but it really made me realize Oh, this is how my body was meant to be. Okay, it's never going to be like that dude or this dude And why am I chasing an image in man? It's actually what I love about paleo and maybe I can circle back to that later if we have time But paleo for me really put together a philosophy that I've personally had since my teens About humanity just in going back to a more primitive setting of all these social things and yada yada yada, but man Let's get into that like the The over-training thing and and let me just preface it with this when you were talking about the image of bodybuilders I was talking to one of my friends. He's a personal trainer in Austin excellent guy awesome dude I actually want to interview him because he said something to me and I don't want to put words in his mouth I'd rather have him explain it because he was a competitive bodybuilder. He's he said dude There's so much insanity that I had to tap into about myself In order to do that that it was unhealthy mentally for him Yeah, and there was so much anger and actually I don't I gotta let him say but this is kind of what I interpreted from what he was saying and he was like man, I just want to be healthy and So when we talk about Talk about that, you know, he pushed himself to a point of overtraining Yeah of over dieting of caloric deficit and taking different supplements and all sorts of shit When we're trying to get in shape, I'll work myself in his men and maybe his women too. You can work yourself into a competitive Psychosis and I'll overtrain get exhausted get tired won't then won't be able to sleep and have too much adrenaline in my body What do you say about this overtraining? under Recovery type thing. Yeah, so for most people So without getting too technical there's a term That's more adequate for the normal person, which is overreaching Right when you get in when people actually get into the point of overtraining You're usually talking about competitive athletes that have just pushed themselves without proper coaching Just push themselves over the edge and that would include like adrenal freaking complete burnout Fyroid shot, you know that that whole that whole line when most people talk about overtraining what they really mean is overreaching Which I would which you could You know classify as you know fit severe fatigue just that You know undead feeling that kind of thing But here's the thing with that Most people don't train hard enough to ever hit the overreaching point What they do is they under recover and remember when we talked earlier about the sleep and the stress and the adequate diet and all of those things Training is another stress on the body and people fail to realize that And I get this all the time because if I train no one else at efficient exercise. It is the type a hyper type a lawyer And they are blowing and going 24 7 And These are the these are the the people that set themselves up for that because obviously they're in a super stressful job They don't sleep because they're working 16 hours a day They eat here and there. I mean, it's pretty tough to get them, you know on the on the paleo or real food reservation and So now their workouts are one additional stress on their body And so what happens is people will start throwing this additional stress without trying to take care of the other stuff Now the body can more than handle A very very high level of workout stress if you get the other stuff under control and that's where the recovery part comes in So when I say there isn't no such thing is over training. It's under recovery. That's what I mean What I mean is you don't have the rest of your life dialed in to then add that additional stress on top of it Yeah And that's and that's really what it is because if you did have that other stuff dialed in you could work out like a fiend And never never over train like I it's crazy. I haven't actually been on the mats in a while but doing jujitsu and if I train God man, there were so many different experimentations I would try and do But a lot of times I'd get really into it and being 37 there'd be like these 25 year olds that would do crossfit They'd do like three hours of jujitsu like hard and All in the same day and I'm like, man But at the same time, I think a 25 year old's body and everybody's 25 year old bodies a little bit different But these guys, you know, just had it, right? Not sustain. Yeah, but also they're probably resting and getting the the Proper whatever. I also know guys that train like animals and still drink soda and eat a bunch of crappy stuff Man, for me, I'm actually kind of grateful that I can't do that. You know, if I If I train like one or two hours on the mat hard Man, I need I have to have eight nine hours of sleep. Yeah, if I'm Lifting as well within that it's probably best if it's on another day Or there's like a substantial amount of rest in between and um You know for me working out like two three times a week is Is more than enough depends on what it is So everybody's gotta everybody's gotta find that point, you know, the amount of The amount of workout stress that I can handle now is not what it was when I was 25 Yeah, but then I look at look back, you know, when I was at it was probably earlier for me as I started Having kids pretty pretty early and had to get out and you know earn money But I think back to like what my training was like in college when I played college football and it was murderous but I didn't have What did I have stress wise other than that? Yeah, I slept, you know, I got a hell of a lot of sleep It wasn't like I was a star student. So I wasn't really stressed about school. I had Zero others. I mean zero my housing was taken care of we even we had laundry I didn't even have to worry about doing my laundry meals. I just show up and eat I mean, there was zero stress outside of training stress. That was it. Yeah, I could handle a hell of a lot You know trying to run a business. I went and trying to do this that You know trying to juggle four different Businesses and make a float make sure the kids are fed make sure the mortgage is paid You see now that's a hell of a lot of stress that I can't put You can consider the body a big bucket that can hold so much stress No, you actually got a lot going on. You know, it's crazy about the body and about men in their their journey of Actually, how old are you if you don't mind me asking 50 Man, you know, this guy has so much muscle mass on him. It's insane. It's Pretty phenomenal. Wow 50 and your body fat percentage is what it's about 11 11. Yeah, I don't think I've ever gotten there My dexa scan and so that's you know, that's a good set point for me. Yeah on a dexa to Just let everybody know if you're getting your calipers done It's much different on a dexa, but it's not as forgiving. Yeah, you can't run and hide from a dexa I mean, it's it is what it is. I mean, it's one of the most accurate readings for body composition you can get I mean you can You can't get an MRI scan, but I mean for the for the normal person the dexa scan is I mean, it's way far and above Calipers internal body fat to tell you what's in the arm. What's in the leg? It's crazy. Yeah, but I mean god, you know and just put in perspective at 13 or 14 percent body fat for me Via dexa scan you see my leg muscles, you know, you see it's not bodybuilder late But I mean it's like I have cut cut cut definition, but um Man that all being said and it's not just about body fat, but that's a good point of reference. I think to go for Yeah, it's yeah Man like it's so interesting because the older you get the stronger your mind becomes You know, it's gone through more battles. It's gotten beaten up. It knows when to be humble It knows when to fight But your body does change and for any sport, you know, there's like usually, you know, like mountaineers They get better not when they're old old, but in their 30s even into their 40s I see it also with fighters that don't take too much trauma. You know, of course a 20 year old 25 year old 22 year old is going to be a phenomenal athlete, but the wisdom that can come into play with that. I think usually Yeah Your body's not as fast. It's not as strong But there's something else going on that that still has that will and I think that's a tough thing Especially if you're pushing it like a lawyer or you're an entrepreneur and you want to get in shape You think more going harder going faster is the way to go and a lot of times it's about being smarter And that's man. That's a hard The ego is a hard thing to put down when it's it's smart and it's being efficient to you Yeah, it's being efficient and being effective and and really what it comes down to is is Cutting away the excess and cutting away the fat All of us have 24 hours in a day Yeah, all of us And so you just have to be you have to get very very smart about how you divvy up that 24 hours Man that you know, I think if I've gotten if I've gotten better or wiser if I've got as I've gotten older I've been a good manager of my day And I've been able to train and train hard and now you know, I've been I've been doing this You know almost 40 years training wise. So I I know what works and I know what doesn't work and I know I know where the meat is in a workout, right? So I I'm not doing tricep kickbacks with dumbbells or you know, I know What I need to do and what's effective and I think that helps me spend less time in the gym And you know, it's it's not wasting my energies that I need to be putting towards business pursuits and think and recover Man, so that's you do a lot like talk about stress efficient exercise um The arx fit. Yeah the paleo fx um God you just have a lot of things going on man. Let's talk about paleo fx. You've been doing it for years What was the overall vision and what does it become? So uh, and I've told this story a couple times So michelle and I I don't know if your listeners know about the ancestral health symposium So the ancestral health symposium is a very very academic side of what we do in the paleo community So this is where the scientific papers are presented um This is an academic conference where ours is more for the layperson where the rubber meets the road. Um um My wife michelle and I went to the inaugural Hs which was um in los angeles 2011 I believe it was who puts on the ancestral health symposium It's the end. So it's a it's a 501c And it is a it is a committee an academic committee that actually puts us on um ancestral health Society is actually who puts it on okay So michelle and I went to this conference. It was a fantastic conference It was a very very academic Yes, it was very deep a lot of knowledge put out Long story short, we had a fantastic time at this conference And we're getting ready to head back to uh head back to austin and we're sitting on the tarmac at lax and we're just kind of debriefing a little bit and Talking about what an awesome conference it was but that Like for me none of my clients would have gotten gotten anything out and nothing it would have been so far heads They would have been lost right so so we're talking about that. We're like, yeah, it would be really really cool to like take that knowledge and Dumb it down to the point to where the common guy could get it. So you know, I get questions Like what do I eat for breakfast? Uh, what's a good source of carbohydrates? It sounds like you're really down on carbohydrates. Well, what's a good source of carbohydrates? Then, you know Questions like that that people need and these are intelligent people. I mean they're You know entrepreneurs doctors attorneys these type people I train They just don't have time to dig into the minutia that I do They expect me to do that. That's why they pay me um So anyway, that's where the whole idea of paleo FX started. Okay, well, we'll have a let's do that Let's get let's get together a couple people and uh, we were actually going to have the first one at an efficient exercise studio, which is To me now that it's just completely freaking laughable How small we were we intended to start? and now This year we will have the entire Palmer Center in Austin. I don't know if anybody's man any of your listeners have been to the Palmer Center It's immense. It is huge and we were able to fill that entire venue for three days in the let's put things in perspective too because when Paleo FX first came around. I remember you guys were talking about it and uh, you know, I Yeah, I heard about it. Obviously interested in it and I know you so I'm like this could be interesting but At the time, you know rob wolf's podcast huge, right huge and still is, you know Marxist and mark daly's apple or marx daly apple tremendously popular blog and Now there's god. There's so many different paleo things and whatnot, but You know, I remember You know mark Was basically like hey or no not mark. Uh, rob was like I'm gonna be at this conference And I was listening to the podcast and I was like, oh my god. Wow And you know, and it just started moving and happening and and God man, you know just built and built and built announced this huge event where Literally, it's the standard like all the paleo guys come and talk Everybody everybody has anything to do with paleo will be there all the big names and it's and I should say too that it's not It's not just a diet conference and I you know So it's I mean, we have a huge s and c floor We have everybody from olympic lifters coming out give a dutch lowey Eva twardo kins people who are on the fringes of the diet or who might not even you know They just eat a real food diet and they don't worry about it. Paleo is not their thing But they're super into the strength and conditioning. We bring those people in Panels on shamanism and psychedelics. I mean that's part of the human experience and we want to we want to dig into that So it's man. Is it about diet? Yes, but it's about the whole human experience Well, I actually I want to talk about this because I think it's moving in this direction I remember last year, uh, man, I forget the guy's name the guy who wrote sex at dawn Chris ron. Yeah. Yeah. He was like, I'm gonna be at the paleo fx and in austin You know hit me up or saying, you know, or yeah, maybe on the rogan podcast or something. He's a cool guy but uh but you know his message is A little bit different, but this ties in everything together and uh, you know, even when I was God, man, like 1718 and actually now this book is required reading But it's this book called ishmael and it talks about all this social theory and a lot of richard doc and references Dawkins references on you know, we have population dense societies and when we're overstimulated It man, it's so interesting because and even at my 21 convention speech of this last year. Well, skylar was there uh It was in tampa. I was talking about This idea that when we are in deficit You know for the things that we were born to be which is food Paleo made the best argument for this. I remember talking to people in my early 20s about this Like, what are we going to go live in caves? You know about like, you know, kind of like this theory of like Hey, we were really born to live emotionally socially mentally physically in this different way And this is all this weird distortion and that's why we have all these problems And it's easy to get in the blame game and be like an early in your early 20s and talking about some theoretical thing That, you know, you can't really put into a way of life But paleo did that diet wise and I see it moving into because paleo It's like well, this is how we socialize and actually james steel his speech at the 21 convention and at the ancestral health symposium this last year was about Well, paleo, you know talks about we can't sit we've got to stand and all this stuff And he's like look there's not a lot of evidence towards that and even at Tribal cultures that we see now. There's a lot of sitting. Yeah. Yeah apes. There's a lot of sitting There's a lot of resting and and uh, you know socializing for young kids was playing but as adults There was like a more of a decompression and a talking and I was like, dude james, man This is awesome because my speech is hitting on this But in yeah, I don't want to make this about me because I'm just borrowing theories that come from a whole bunch of other people but Man, I would really like to see where paleo goes in the next couple of years And you're one of the guys that really brought this together of where it's going to go with all that social theory because man There's a lot of people who are talking about it in not really having dialogue with you guys yet that I know of and hopefully they are But talking about addiction talking about psychological problems talking about different mental illness and not to minimize those And if you have those problems, man, see somebody see a professional who is trained with it But there's a lot of evidence how this way we live Is uh, man causes extra stress We're not being fed with what we were born to To need emotionally Mentally physically and when we're in distress physically we become malnourished and we can become fat We can become emaciated we become diseased and when we are malnourished with our emotions With our need for socializing and even our need for sex and our need for connection We get all out of shape and we see this with the guys in the seduction industry You're saying athletes Overperform and then don't become healthy. Yeah. Well, there's all these guys or girls or whatever searching for an image Searching for a validation. What is masculinity? What is femininity? It's this this that chasing it And not getting the benefits of health and that's why I ask you like what is what is health absence of disease? Well, what is social and sexual health? What is mental health absence of disease? Yeah, resentment anger blame These aren't things that we're really it's even seen and it's hard to Note that but even in tribal culture. Do we see that? You know and of course we don't want to go live like the dudes in new guinea and do all the weird crazy stuff They're doing or whatever, but man, there isn't jealousy there There isn't like, you know in in what happens when populations get too dense what happens when people start getting cut out What happens when compartmentalization and labeling happens? Your brain shapes in a different way And so if if people can know the potential of their bodies That was the first message that I heard from paleo But what seems to be happening is if people can notice the potentials of their emotional range Who they are or how they think and how they have relationships with people I think we can move it into something that uh that goes a little bit beyond, you know For sure. Yeah, it's in you know, the whole point of paleo is not to put a Not to put a halt on progress. That's I mean you want to progress I mean we as a human species have done nothing but progress and I think it's hardwired into us And I mean this can get into a whole philosophical Spiritual direction, but we as a species are not meant to sit idle. Yeah, I mean when we talk about Sending astronauts to mars colonization of mars The only way we can do that And to ship this human container And put it in such an environmental mismatch is Mars we better know where we came from right? Yeah crossing an ocean though, man. Yeah, think about that God, I mean that so you better know what this machine needs In this what this machine needs is fuel what it needs is exercise what it needs for mental stability Sexual stability that all of that. Yeah is part of the human experience And that is what we cover at paleo fx and that is what we need to be able To be able to leverage the proper technologies to move us along man, you know what it's all about it's funny because uh Years ago. I heard on a podcast with rogan and he was like talking about ambition You know, he just goes off on stuff and he's like, man, don't you think it's kind of dangerous like ambition can be bad And so one of my groups and one of my men's groups we workshopped this for months We really came up with this like man is meant to pursue or I don't know if meant Because and I think when you and I are talking about Paleo or whatever. I'm not trying to put rules on any of this like there's no one set way like yeah, but How we're living now and what we think it is is really not Is it's too complex and too oversaturated with so many different things, but I'm not I'm not talking about regulation I'm not talking about enforcement. I don't think yeah, yeah the nature of humanity, but Ambition is just this pursuit of wanting something better and humans will always do that as soon as we could cross a desert And that was death. Yeah, I mean for you want to talk about millions of years. We did not do that You know when ice age actually happens in between all that before we could actually cross those areas, but um Man, you know As soon as we could we did Like it's just nuts as soon as we had the capabilities to do that and when we talk about space and different explorations I don't know what's going to happen But man wants to pursue The interesting thing is is if we have insecurity if we have doubts If we have thoughts of less than then ambition turns into an expression of that And I think that's where it gets dangerous for people and our pursuits start to become a war with Us not being good enough or I gotta be this or fit this image But your natural thing within you and I think it's important for guys to get is to hey, man Go out and look go out and explore. It's truly your nature Um, yeah, and when you think about how the brain works if I'm out hiking and I've been in a trail that I've been on before You know, I'm just like, okay, cool You know time goes by at normal time pace if I hit on a new side of that trail or an area that I haven't been Time slows down. I become more observant my mind opens up in different ways and uh You know, if I go to like the the hack side like human engineering sort of way I'm like I'm gonna do that as much as possible. I'm gonna how do I systematize this in my life But if I just see that as like maybe that was part probably a natural expression of how my brain was meant to work The more I can have unique experiences and see things in the moment rather than try and manufacture them I tend to be a lot happier. Yeah, it wakes your senses up too. Yeah, man. No I I think paleo the thing I love about paleo and what you've brought to the table with it with the paleo effects And bringing everybody together is that it's turned into this pursuit of how we can really be happy on all different levels It was so cool just in at the 21 convention, which is not paleo effects Which is not the ancestral movement symposium It but there there is a faction of it there people were talking about relationships people were talking about how they interact People were talking about You know the science between it and the social theory behind it and it was just very cool And I just can't wait till You know, there's a lot of different Kind of a crazy dude will helm rike had a lot that he thought about this, but he was also kind of nuts this Just, you know dock ins and these different guys had Just so many different theories on what is happening and even some of the more modern thoughts on addiction and Mental illness and all this sort of stuff. I just see it coming together in a good way Dude You said that there's like some shamanic guys coming to talk to everybody who loves hearing about that Just give us a little taste of what yeah, so without letting the total cat out of the bag. So, uh A couple of friends of mine are actually Will actually be landing in austin from a 10 day iowasca trip in uh in peru So they'll be getting right off the plane right after I think they've got like seven iowasca Ceremonies during that 10 day period. So they ought to be ripe for some for some good stories. Um But The question about shamanism right this has been part of the human experience It as far as we know as long as there has been a human experience There has always been that element. Yeah that has made us human and it's You know, this isn't a read. This isn't a religious type of expression, but there's something there Totally, yeah something inherent to that Other world or or whatever you want to call it That that needs to be studied because I think it's absent In today's society. So just as we're under nourished Food-wise we're under nourished in that realm too Because now there's so many, you know, there's so many cultural biases set up around it There's so much stigma that's wrapped around religion as we know it now So it's best we can understand the roots of it and and what it is from that experience that we need I think we need to understand that we need to study it I just find it, you know, and on the psychedelic realm I just find it very very interesting that we went for millions of years and made Very very very little progress. I mean, you know 100 000 years to figure out and you know one new angle on a spear tip And then 50 000 years ago something happened that just exploded creativity You know from the point where you went from a spearhead to putting a man on the moon In 50 000 years that is incredible When you look at the the other part of human evolution that it took all that time to get to the spearhead Man, I mean even something happened. I mean, it's just it's nuts. It's so crazy and how many things happened in sync historically um, but I think human beings and check this out. So this is all speculation. I'm no expert But in the little bit I've studied about anthropology and uh, you know, I've like I said in my early 20s I looked at a lot of books that were Not necessarily paleo-esque. They're more on like the social theory and uh, actually Saharaja an amazing book on Just how people came about and a lot of a lot of crossover with paleo But uh We've always told stories. We are social animals. That's what kept us alive Like this is actually what I really think is so irresponsible about a lot of people talking about Who are selling like in the dating and seduction industry that has a huge part in the 21 convention You know, that's my thing But they'll say, you know social proof the king had women around him. We didn't have kings Like we didn't have like warriors. We didn't have like people may have fought But there was nobody with the identity of that, you know Sparta was the like one of the first times where they had warriors Like this is what you do and all you do And uh In there may have been stuff before that or whatever, but it just wasn't a huge part of humanity Yeah, it's a relatively new Invention in the human in the whole human uh timeline You really I mean when when when you look at it in relation to again that you know The difference between the spearhead and putting the man on the moon Was nothing compared to what it took to get to that spearhead Yeah And when you when we look at timelines and the same thing could be said of you know, the warrior class and then in the The king's class and I mean these are relatively new Very cultural inventions. Yeah, man But what brought us together was story in wondering about how we we are and were and You know, of course recorded history is is very young, right? But man our urge was to see that person Yep It a lot of times we say no our urge was to be afraid of them I'm sure we were totally afraid that we saw a new person was all fuck man but What pretty much had to happen for us to survive was to merge with that person or that group And that was huge and what made us do that And what made us identify with us and with it and give us our identities and fulfill us in different ways Was who we are in our history and I think human beings when they naturally come together Especially in smaller groups define that very well We're just made for it if you just even city people, you know industrialized people whatever But the sad thing is is now the more people we have the bigger walls the bigger our fences the more establishment of property and Even these ideas of property establishment and you've actually written about this, you know, it's like hey I'd love to have a kind of like a commune type area where people could sure. Yeah Yeah, I think it's I think it's natural for the human condition to be in in you know tribes of You know less than a hundred, right Totally when you get people in a city I mean, it's just too much and even at man, this is like way back when but like 12 years ago I interviewed Jared Diamond the guns germs and steel guy and it was like Even at a hundred people there's consistent splits that happen of leadership and that That just it does get divided and classes start to move around. Yeah, it's a not there is There is and I can't recall the number right off and it's about a hundred But you know what I'm saying small groups are what we're designed to live in. Yeah, oh man They small like-minded groups. So yeah Dumb and it's I I just I would love to see things go in that direction in this crazy world of what we have going on now because I'm not going backwards Yeah, I know and that's all about it, right? So if we understand that okay, well, we as humans we get along really really good as to say in a group of 25 Yeah, we get along really really good. We start getting bigger than that. We need to split off. Well I mean, we don't need to fight that. Yeah, you need to somehow incorporate that into the fabric of of our society Yeah, and use that and we've got the information. Let's use it totally You know that may meet that may mean like totally recreating society or You know the patchwork But we need to be moving that direction instead of trying to fight it Awesome. So in it and you know, it's cliched but knowledge is power Absolutely So utilize the knowledge as best you can. I mean we we all want a wonderful living experience, right? And so paleo and these ideas of group dynamics all of this makes for a better living experience Man, so I know you have to catch a plane But if somebody shows up at the paleo FX and they come in there, you know, they go to the site They look at it What can they expect from being inundated with all this information different speakers different presentations? But I think there's more to it than that Yeah, um, what what's gonna happen? So we were just talking about the human dynamic the human need to want to get together as a common group Paleo FX is it. I mean, this is the one time a year where everybody with this like-minded vision of Looking through an evolutionary lens to propel ourselves forward Everybody is under one roof at one time It's just a phenomenal experience And I don't want to take anything away from the speakers, right? I mean we have we have a over a hundred speakers anybody who's everybody in paleo Five concurrent stages going on the whole time. Oh my gosh talks masterminds. I mean you will be just Information overload We film everything so everybody be able to purchase the films afterwards So, you know, you can only watch one talk at a time or wait, but you'll be able to purchase All the talks will be recorded But the you hear it in Every time when you talk to somebody about the experience It was the networking opportunities and being able to get together as a group Everybody has such a fantastic time at this And it's a paleo party I mean and people will group up after Austin is a beautiful place in the spring I mean, it's just It's one of you ask anybody who goes there who has been and this is the highlight of the year For their travels and they build the ability to get together with like-minded people and discuss these issues And also it's grown. It's grown on such a massive level. So clearly it's like people are coming for something man like How How many days and how many people are expected to come? So it'll be it's over three days the 24th through the 26th of april in austin And there'll be over 1500 people there. God that just sounds amazing. It's it is uh yeah, and You know, we had no idea that paleo effects would turn out like this none. I mean in our wildest dreams. We never You never anticipated this um, and right now it is In really the burden of this is on michelle because i've got the The arcs fit and the efficient exercise thing to take care of so unfortunately, you know, uh, mark and i alexander deficient exercise. We're like, wow, this is getting really out of hand. It's all We kind of put it off and it's taking it and just really molded this thing into a first class symposium man She's done a wonderful job with it. Um We keep you know bringing in new blood every year So just this paleo idea Is just flowering Across the nation and across the world to where now it's being applied to so many other different disciplines Um, I mean it's it's crazy and it's a it's a wild roller coaster ride And you know, I I wouldn't have it any other way I mean g's just think like this happened four years ago and you know all the paleo stuff started to get big Like maybe six or seven years ago. Yeah, but man as soon as time magazine put that Piece of butter on the cover. You were like, wow, you know, for instance I'm flying out to pensacola michelle's flying to san diego to do a couple of a couple of shows out there. So it's um The interest in what is paleo is just exploding into the mainstream, right? Um, and I think if we have any Michele and ivy in the position that we are if we have any duty it is to try to explain What it is about paleo that makes it so effective and it just in really that's what we talked about today Yeah, what is it that makes it effective? It's not going back to a cave in spear and saying, you know Halt to progress the hell no we do want to progress. Yeah If you want to go you know me going to this uh this symposium that's in in pensacola This is all about spaceflight. How do we keep an astronaut healthy for six months? Six to nine months where they're being transported to mars And the only way to do that is to consider that question through an evolutionary lens Yeah, because we are evolutionary beings. I mean we were we were born in the crucible of Of evolution and we have to consider that if we're going to talk it about such an environmental Match between where we are here in space Awesome, that's the kind of leverage paleo fx can have and that's that's what we intend to do Man, I can't I can't wait to see it. It'll just be like a phenomenal thing Yeah, we're looking forward to it. I train all year for paleo fx because it's it's it's three days of blowing and going I don't know how you can manage all that. I don't know how I mean even if michelle's helping you Like that or you know, maybe she's carrying a lot of that Yeah, it is insane But it's like I said, we would have it no other way Yeah, man, I know you got to get going on the plane and all that stuff. This was an amazing podcast. I think Maybe next time when we have you back, hopefully sooner than later You can talk about the the entrepreneur development of that because that's just nuts Yeah, I mean that's great That's a whole other that's a whole other topic because it is uh You know, if you would have asked me four years ago before we went into this that I would be involved and michelle and I both would be involved in something like this We would have he would have said you're crazy that none of it's having experience and doing this kind of thing and so it was You know, I'll just say this You know, I'm not patting myself on the on the back But for both of us it took a huge set of freaking webos to go out and do something that was totally Totally totally out of our wheelhouse You know totally when I first met you you guys had efficient exercise in a smaller area You know, there were a lot of gyms like that in austin Yeah, or just around the world and not to make it sound small and you were saying like hey No, it's there's only but there's only sweating tears in this You know, we will teach you how to pump iron or whatever way if I have a pull-up bar If I have a dumbbell if I have this amazing piece of a meat of machinery air x fit I can do it and you're still that same guy. It's just God putting on this amazing major event that's influencing so many people. That's just such a cool thing. Thanks. Thanks I would encourage all your listeners to come even if you have no idea what paleo is or even if you're like You know, I don't agree with that with the paleo diet I mean, certainly you agree with looking at things through an evolutionary lens and I guarantee and you come out there and you see that That again that we are looking to progress Society and not regress Yeah, the hell of a lot out of it and a hell of a lot that you can apply in any discipline whether that's entrepreneurship relationships Whatever They make you a better human being awesome Good stuff. Keith. Hey, you had a good time talking to the folks at nasa That's awesome And uh, man, we'll see you at paleo effects. If not sooner right on. We'll see you on the trip to mars about that All right, awesome. All right good. 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