 the public finance management and then we have Jimmy Jimmy is right below Mark Jimmy is based in Singapore and he's our leader in Singapore for responsible for all the blockchain related activities okay and and and Sean is sitting here he's also based in Taiwan he's on my team he's in my finance team and DD is the left right and called DD is based in in Japan and he's also currently working on the public finance management and blockchain initiative so we got him on the team and to the right side um Devon or Devon how do you pronounce your name yeah it's Devon Devon okay so Devon is based in in New York she is our technical lead for the pfm blockchain so we call it product but yeah the initiative and and the left right down the one with the big beard he is also based in in Canada he's our product manager for the public finance management so that that's quickly we've got the slides here yeah and and I think our key objective is to have you know Mark and also from Jimmy from our team to to discuss and share why we're doing this why we believe in in the transparency and uh they first came to me and and you know because of your podcast I said wow Taiwan must really care about transparency and then I I'm also very passionate about this subject okay so that that's why we initiated the podcast I appear in yes because my podcast is yet to be launched it's roughly a monster except from there okay so we'll be looking forward to that okay and then we'll share a little bit about our experience and our approach using this technology uh to to solve this problem and then lastly we want to get you some of your input and also advice for us and how to maybe help Taiwan government to to create this transparency using the blockchain technology okay speaking of transparency uh our side of the meeting is going to be recorded there's a video cam roughly from this angle which probably doesn't capture your faces like it's not like your likeness will be captured but the audio will and then we will publish it under Creative Commons attribution to well at least YouTube or maybe to some future blockchain uh okay so um we're really really happy uh to be meeting ey.com from ey.gov office because we're in the Executive UN and my email address is literally ey.gov.tw and so looking forward to the to the sharing yeah so ey with the ui so that's right yeah dot com and dot.gov that's exactly right okay so so with that I think uh I'll pass this on to um I think Jimmy will go first yeah thanks again Audrey for taking the time for this and you know in the interest of time I think that we just jump straight into the presentation you know I just like to set a stage about what we do as a firm or blockchain uh and uh and the one important aspect about blockchain is that it is always something about ecosystem um and in ey we believe in that as well because uh even the way that we set up the blockchain team uh is the global organization that cuts across uh all service lines we have four service lines covering assurance consulting tax and legal and strategy uh and our blockchain covers all this all these areas uh other than consulting on the assurance attestation portion as well so and our vision you know since uh the inception of this team has always been that blockchain will do for a business ecosystem uh or a network of enterprises or government agencies what an ERP is simply for a single company and and it is quite a dense statement but I feel that you know the more I've gone through this statement the more I've gone through blockchain TOC that projects the company the more true I how it becomes right because what the ERP did for a single company maybe 20 30 years ago is it standardizes the processes within the company order to cash for Q2P uh it standardizes the data that's used to process this set of processes so you have master data like vendors uh gl material but what it cannot do that ERP is to cut across multiple enterprises for that usually a lot of interfaces and what is known as uh electronic data exchange edis takes place and you will see a mass web of various exchanges which largely will be inconsistent and takes a long time to build up which we feel that the coming of blockchain is to allow these networks of companies or government agencies to be able to interact and do what previously an ERP company uh an ERP system for a single company so maybe we call it ecosystem resource planning or something sorry sorry you had a question is it no so maybe we can call this new new ERP ecosystem resource planning or something but please go ahead you're you're right I mean there's uh there's there's many people who say that perhaps you will take over the ERP system in the company we feel that perhaps not so at the moment right because the ERP for a company is still for a certain purpose uh it's internal processes right but you're right in terms of the network of companies that needs to be integrated blockchain provides a very very good platform for that and we have done quite a fair bit of work over the years right so if you look at the third point on the right a lot of our R&D has gone into blockchain design especially around ZKB zero knowledge pool so it's a protocol that we have developed quite a fair bit on and open source quite a fair bit on as well we developed some of these protocols on public interior with Microsoft as well we launched baseline which is a protocol between EY consensus and Microsoft so then again we open source for the public to use all towards all in the the effort towards enabling our vision right that blockchain will be able to do for business networks what ERP did for us in the company so did you can go to the next slide you know as part of our product strategy as part of going towards that vision as well we have two major platforms that we built on the first is on ops trade so EY ops trade is a platform that allows enterprises to transact with each other or both public and private blockchains and there's there's many different applications we built on ops trade the one we will focus on today and my colleagues will take it on later on in a lot more detail is the public finance manager so that's one thing that I think has served a large public institutions very well in enabling transparency of finances and enabling traceability of where budget goes to the other product that is that we are focusing on is more from an assurance angle right that we help people who want to analyze what's on the blockchain be able to do so with a tool we call blockchain analyzer so that platform works you know hand in glove with ops chain it works hand in glove with most of the major public and private blockchain platforms as well so if we go to the next slide please I think you know I just wanted to just showcase a few examples of ecosystems that we have helped connected and the next slide will show that across food and beverage traceability across medical supply chain across shipping and logistics and of course across fund management you know managing or fund management which is the focus of today's discussion we have used this platform to gain users to allow users in different parts of different organizations to be able to connect with each other as well so that's all I have in terms of making sure that you know perhaps setting a stage of where we are at in terms of a UI blockchain I think that what the next section we are covering is Mark is going to go through very specifically one of the application on ops chain which is called what we call PF and public finance manager and that's an area I think has interest not just very large government institutions but also international institution as well that disperse a lot of funds and one desire a means of to have transparency around this fund and to have traceability around this fund so Mark for help I pass the time to you now to go through a little bit on pfm and overview of pfm well very happy to do so and minister good evening good morning for you but good evening very aptly from from here just outside of Toronto let me just pick up on a couple of themes but I also want to just tell you a little bit about the story and the legacy of why it is that we have that we have built what we have built and with the team here and with many others along our side are now well and truly into the application and we think with some very exciting results and we'll give you some kind of technical details so Devin and promote in particular have worked on building some things up and you'll see one of the applications that we've been doing and I can tell you this working with some of the largest global organizations the international financial institutes like the World Bank the United Nations the IMF and so on but let me just step step back and and Jimmy picked up on a couple of very important points he used words like ecosystem use words like value he did mention budget and for me as the global leader of our public financial management space including the blockchain space but more broadly than that it really is centered around the notion of the public budget and as you will no doubt experience in your day-to-day life but we across the world almost every jurisdiction that we work in at the heart of all things government of course are all things public budget and the reason for that and I don't need to give you this lesson but it's but it's important to ground the mechanisms here the reason is that it's not just about the money but it is in fact about what the intention of that money is and it is the marriage of financial resource with social outcome with public safety with transparency with democracy that actually is the combination of what makes public financial management so important and so when we view innovation in the field of public budgeting we yet are involved with an awful lot of work around planning around budgeting systems and so forth but one of the things that we have the I'm going to say the privilege but also I suppose the expectation from our from our various partners around the world is that we should always be looking for that next level of advancement and in this particular case the next level of advancement in public budgeting has found itself to involve the creation of the blockchain solution that we're happy to share with you here today and the reason for that comes back to this notion that from a democratic perspective from an accountability perspective from an output from an outcome perspective I want to understand the efficiency the effectiveness the productivity of the way that my public budgets are being allocated the way that they are being consumed and the results that they are driving and what that means is that across an increasingly complex ecosystem that can start with central agencies central budget authorities the various forms of line department operating agencies and so on and increasingly a whole range of external actors both near and far from from government structures properly the ecosystem that is actually executing the intentions of public budgets are very complicated very complex and from a data management perspective from an information management perspective connecting the complexity is a technological challenge it is obviously a governance and a business challenges as well but blockchain for all of the reasons that jimmy described and i think for all of the reasons that you personally understand the marriage between the intention and the execution of a public budget frame a public financial management frame enabled by this exciting and and and now well emerged and well proven tech technology is really the value that is being driven uh and the value that we're seeing is essentially as as follows indeed if we get to the next page please there's a really simple frame that the intention is to enhance to provide single sources of truth and so forth across the entire range and the complexity of the way that public budgets are set defined and executed to improve allocated efficiency which is essentially around the economic and the social value uh and to provide a single source of truth to improve the administrative uh mark we cannot hear you can you pause no i think it's it's our side's problem it's it's the portable uh speaker oh yeah yeah it's our speaker here we're good yeah that's okay all right actually uh you sound better without our speakers there you go i'll pick up the telephone if you want that's right so we're right right around this source of truth public budget is apart and you've got the revenue functions of government you've got the expenditure and the regulatory functions of government and every one of the of the issues that you're trying to drive involves some degree of improved transparency single sources of truth in the efficiency of that but most importantly the effectiveness uh and on and on the final slide that i'll speak to you can actually see essentially which is which is the next one please they're dating we'll get we'll get to the very the very um powerful parsimonious which is simple but but it really is the simplicity married with the technological capability that drives the capability the capacity enhancement that we're seeing around the world now which is essentially i now in real time integrated across the complexity of the ecosystem and able to understand what my public budget is being spent on which is essentially the statutory reporting the public accounts view how and when it's being spent by the variety of actors that are involved which is really an efficiency and a productivity a value for money uh sort of frame which again i think most elected and certainly the senior non-elected officials that we work with are very interested in and what i would say to you most importantly of all is the connection then to the outcomes the outputs delivered and the outcomes achieved which kind of full circles the intention of public budget i have public money i have an intention i deliver a result and for the decision makers and the influencers that we work with we want to be able to provide a real-time very very near near to real-time efficient access to that integrated information and our pfm blockchain solution provides our capability to do that so let's take you just a little bit i might pause and just ask you if there are any questions if that seems to make some some sense for you and if it does then what we'll do is we'll uh we'll ask Devin to just tell you just a little bit about some of the technological application the way that it's been built and applied in particular i think we're going to use one of the world bank examples to kind of speak speak to and frame but any any questions at this stage minister um i do have quite a few questions but it's about the the nightfall data uh data-based um code base and the pull requests and the security vulnerabilities and various other technical aspects being a software engineer by training uh but on the on the top level strategy no this is very clear i don't have much questions all right fantastic well i'll tell you what let's take you down a level or two into some of the technological detail and you've got the right people on the uh on the call to be able to answer some of those deep detail questions thank you so we'll be as mark mentioned taking a look at some client use cases so we'll be looking at in particular the world bank group and the goal here was to track funds for the purpose of making sure the developing countries received vaccinations and we'll be looking at another use case which involves funding local food ecosystems again for for countries in need who who need to have food sources and that really starting capital in order to have seeds the livestock as well as the farming equipment in place in order to start their own ecosystem so we'll be we'll be talking about those two use cases in more detail but the graph that you see here um really shows the flow of funds down from what we call the L zero so our donors down into our government entities and then to our borrowers at our level three suppliers and providers and then down to the beneficiaries um and again this is in some ways an over oversimplification of the real process so in many cases you might have multiple providers and suppliers instead of just one you might have multiple borrowers and you might have funds that flow directly from government agencies all the way down to beneficiaries or directly to the suppliers and again we'll get into the more the technicalities of pfm just a little bit but again walking through on the far left so we have our donors and the examples that I mentioned this could be in some cases the EU and the donors want to make sure that their funds are being spent appropriately so in most cases they're able to see this view with an audit that occurs a year or two later after the project is complete and with pfm we really are we our goal is to give a more real time view into the objectives of these projects and link those objectives back to the funds that are being sent down from donors again through this through this fund flow so if you'll go to the next slide so love to talk about the process that we walk through for the pfm solution so we have typically our our donors donate funds they have agreements with various entities so in this case there's an agreement with the donor and with the receiver of funds so our government entities and many times these are tied to project objectives that are then passed down to the borrowers so we have agreements you know between one and three three and five and then in some cases five and seven and we're going to talk about how these agreements link back to the blockchain so if you'll go to the next slide perfect so we don't need to do a deep dive into all the capabilities of smart contracts but for the agreements between our donors and our borrowers and sorry our donors and our government entities we have smart contracts where we can define who the parties are what requirements have to be met before funds can be released so for example who needs to sign off on these funds are there any objectives that need to be met before those funds are released etc so we have agreements between our donor entities our government entities as well as our government entities and our borrowers so in this case this could again be linked to objectives and and these smart contracts are fairly flexible so they also handle the invoices as well as the based tokenization for physical assets such as farming equipment or bags of seed and so on and so forth so any questions there yep it's really clear thank you perfect um so I'll pass it on to per month and if you'll go to the next slide great great thanks David uh following up on uh you know Mark's overview on pfm and also that was example of what we've done with uh the world bank and the aid and development financing really general um I'll provide a quick uh view under the hood into the product architecture and how we built the UI of champion submission for me uh so starting on the very top now the end users can win departments and agencies at the federal government, provincial, regional or city and municipal governments and users can also be international financial institutions or multilateral agencies such as the one step in action now as you move down what you see is the financial management pillars and how transparency can be applied to any of these fundamental pillars such as the revenue that's flowing into the government expenditure that's going on in the government, regulatory compliance aspects or data resources now if you keep moving down this can be applied now in these domains now it can be applied to multiple use cases while this is not a comprehensive list of current applications that you see examples could be grants and loans management transfer payments between different levels of government, trade services and cost allocation and long-term capital projects and asset utilization uh initiatives etc now if you see the yellow box there those are the core capabilities that we've built and solution that support these use cases and they're organized as microservices and they're available via api through a service layer and for the lots of seeing the core blockchain components underneath they're the ones that underpin these services which is the smart contract model the token models so the rc20s for funds for example the rc some months for assets they also have the rc 155 mile per month tokens to represents multiple tokens within lending agreements loans grants etc and also if you see the rc the assets management through user authentication organization management which is reminds the permissions down to the granular level within the smart contract so every transaction needs to be authorized before they're in so we have granular option control and of course finally we have the infrastructure like that and the note here is that we are currently built on the private period protocol the plans are underway by not incorporate zero knowledge probe into a smart contract model to make it compatible with public Ethereum right well but that's something that's coming in the future but mainly the architecture you see here it's it drives a product design and it is designed in a way to be flexible enough for us to configure the money to use cases across the various pfm parameters and also across multiple levels of the value chain so do you think I might my suggestion is I think we should probably take some of Audrey's technical questions and and have a bit of interaction here yeah it's fine I mean I saw the suggestion that maybe I should share some use cases and I'm happy to to do that as well this is like fully transparent chance I love that okay thank you thank you so much minister yeah I was thinking you know that the example that Devon shared is for the world bank so if you can go back a couple of slices a slice dvd but if you expand across you know the ecosystems that we talked about so I think it can be applied across many many ministries of institution as well so I was just wondering do you see any potential areas we need Taiwan that you feel that you know such a landscape is is useful as well as well what the top level question is that since this looks like a z-cash ish uh already laid on top of the main Ethereum chain uh it looks like it's public domain right so it looks like one can just take it and run like literally taking a run copyright wise and and so what's what's preventing your ecosystem partners to simply build a a bridge to the main mainline but run mostly as a private blockchain due to cybersecurity concerns that I do not personally share but but what's your your angle in convincing people to run this entirely on the on the mainline and with the double risk of the mainline going somewhere else as well as your timber system not actually being able to to recover the state from the full history from the mainline it looks like an extra burden as compared to private solutions I think spot on minister I think you got a good point because part of this solution in fact in the earlier days when the public solution is not that mature that was just maybe three to five years ago a lot of companies do this as part of a private chain so they take Ethereum it goes into a private version of Ethereum and that's that's even to do today I think a lot of agencies are still uh you know going on the on this path largely also because they are not comfortable with maybe on a lack of some understanding of what's available on the public blockchain and you know whether the scalability issue whether security issue is there so which is why uh you know I mentioned a little bit about CKP just now so CKP is just one of the aspects amongst a few other things in the solution that allows the public blockchain to work so what we have put on CKP is to allow a transaction on the public blockchain between two parties to be private right so you know that the transaction occurs you know and it's able to validate the transaction but you do not need to understand what is the content behind the transaction and we understand that also there's a need for that because a lot of enterprises when they transact on the public blockchain they still want their contracts to be to be confidential between the two parties so that's the purpose of the CKP now for the purpose of PMM I think the maybe different agencies who have different agenda some you know for the purpose of traceability and transparency they feel that it's okay for you know where the sources wants to be used or when they want to be used to be made known some just maybe wanting to be restricted within that certain ecosystem so which is why I think I believe that you know some of the solutions will still be on private blockchain even today yeah because yeah I'm more referring to a it really it's not technical it's a social pressure a social issue that is to say if I'm a say level two implementing agency and I made a mistake maybe I made a mistake in a recording of a number in a few that's off by a few orders of magnitude and then using a private net I can use cybersecurity as excuse to talk to just my three L3s and one L1 and then we pretend this never happened but but if I'm implementing the PFMS dictated by L1 to publish that particular field there really is no way to not make the correction publicly according to what I understand of your design and so I'm just wondering what what what's your standard response to that social pressure because they're entirely not committing illegal things if they convinced their 303s and one L1 to make that mistake you know gone from the books but with your design it's it's now not possible to hide it from the public yeah I think I might I might take just a little bit of that if if I please minister so let me just step back we've been very very careful uh and both in the structural design that underpins this but I think also in all of our and I'd like you just called it sort of governance design type type questions to to to build to build a solution that is flexible to the purpose that it is intended to be to be applied for in the vision of whichever state or some state act actor that it is that we're working for and we have the capability for that to be fully publicly transparent but it doesn't have to be okay just as today's exchange systems are not in fact hardly at all truly publicly uh open and transparent so too can this can this be built so we have been very careful to make sure that those sorts of issues of governance who has access to what we call it the delegation of authority I think you probably understand that right at law the appropriation structure also includes various delegations of authority who has access to what bits of information when what what type and so on if there are honest errors that are made well those I think are just honest errors and they can be corrected but if you and it's not yes we are doing work that involves the integrity of the exchange corruption and so forth we are we are dealing with with some of those perspectives but let's just frame it in terms of if there's an error it can be corrected not everybody needs to see the fact that there was because it's most likely that it is being applied in the same sort of delegation of authority and access frame as would be today's uh financial systems the the enhancements though are that I'm starting to connect not just financial tracking but I'm connecting the financial tokens to the non-financial expectations as promote said we're able to connect operating with capital we're able to tie to hard assets to social assets and so on and what we're getting is that we are getting the integrity the complexity and so forth into an integrated view we can still define through governance who has access to that view and ultimately maybe that might be fully public and transparent but it doesn't have to be okay so yeah okay yeah my my main question is just it allows the ones on the upstream they are one for example to apply extra enforced by algorithm not by law constraints on say their downstreams the L2 and so one using this design that L2 are in a relatively powerless situation as compared to private blockchains or other backend systems to to argue back basically it's just an observation but understand your point that if you have the collaborative incentive for all the neighboring layers then of course you can change exactly how near real time how nia is that near real time and so on I understand that part yeah so so one of the one of the things and I just I know we just pick up one of the one of the comments that you've just made there is it I mean really goes to the incentive structure that is also tied tied to this because you can take a very kind of centralized view from the central budget authority down and I've got a high degree of authority and control that I'm trying to enforce but again it doesn't have to be like that I don't know any system in the world Canada Taiwan the United States it doesn't matter we always have the authority of things like audit reporting and so on but we don't necessarily want to introduce that sort of heavy-handed approach what we actually want to do is we want to allow for the administrative efficiency of those reconciliations to be as to be the efficiency to be as high as possible the cost to be as low as possible so that in fact we're not focusing our time and effort on the reporting the financial reporting particularly across these organizational boundaries but rather what we're collectively focused on is translating the money into the effort as effectively as possible and into the output in the outcome as effectively as possible so what we're finding is that you're replacing the administrative effort and time spent doing things like reconciling and connecting systems and so on almost manually like we have to do to today we're replacing that effort with focus on the more important issues of how do we actually improve service delivery systems how do we go to enhance the economy of resource allocation and so on and so the incentive we think anyway we think that the incentive is a very positive one because both the funder the fund manager and the ultimate beneficiary have all gotten a shared interest in trying to make that effectiveness productivity and value gain right so the main idea is that it saves time on day one and hopefully reduce risk as well that's exactly over time the more ties reduce risk but saves time on day one okay that that's very clear thank you and I have a couple technical questions in the yyblog chain github repository the latest developments has been around fixing security vulnerabilities and so on but the governance system isn't quite clear because for example and github automatically you know send out dependency warnings when it comes to potential security vulnerabilities the standard thing for a free software community to do is to triage and either close them as irrelevant or to immerse them in and there's also you know incoming issues that ask for clarity deployment and things like that but it doesn't with audio respect it doesn't look like it's being real-time governed and so is it actually the governance goes somewhere else and github is just a mirror or what's going on in the governance space for the open source project yeah I can answer that one so in an ideal world if it's an open source project you have contributors from all over the world who are in this case dependable actually opens up those automatic core requests for you so it does all of the uh all of the hard work and then you just have to pull down and test to make sure those updates are correctly applied and most times it's just version updates so in an ideal world everyone from around the world would start to pull down and double check to make sure that code was properly updated in this case we do find that in the most cases it's actually EY employees who are double checking a lot of those core requests we do have outside contributors but in most cases we actually have outside users but not as many contributors to the code base so that's part of the reason why but I do know we have a few dependable suggestions in the PR backlog right now okay so what I'm hearing and just checking my understanding is that the pilot cases you outlined basically you publish the the api the microservices and whatnot but then people operate on the application layer above that they don't actually have a lot of customization requirements not even you know the the usual one about porting to a different runtime environment or whatever and and they maybe they maintain some local deployment scripts and so on but the it's not a two-way street like you're not actively coaching them into the development team we are we're coaching them in terms of teaching them but yes many times the coders who are more perfect or at least proficient enough to understand and to use the nightfall and other open source code bases that EY produces typically do hard what we call hard forks so where they take a copy of nightfall and and and transform it but without necessarily contributing I know I know and and that's directly due to your license choice so what's what's the what's the rationale what's the rationale to make it copyright free and and granted to to you you know humanity I do the same so I know why I'm doing this but I want to know your reasons so we use open source software and a lot of our development work but EY of course is you know we can't operate on public domain all the time so EY has a stance of we contribute open source software and in this case I believe it's actually public domain because we believe that in order for our group to be successful we need to encourage Ethereum as a whole to also be successful and part of that is making sure that we have those zero knowledge proof code bases in place for the community so we're hopeful that that our group will grow with the rest of the with the rest of the Ethereum group okay so it's a and I mean it in a possible like future like everyone will consider public chain better than private chain and you're part of this I don't know political movement in the best interpretation of that word okay yeah okay that makes sense thank you there's a there's a sort of openness for me and having that having those two things aligned at some stage for sure okay and uh minister I think the the question you asked was also asked by a lot of our colleagues internally as well because you can imagine we spend quite a lot of effort to develop a protocol such as this and to put it on the public domain for everybody to use without a fee obviously I think we have gone through a lot of internal questions as well and I guess there's two parts to it as well Devin mentioned one part of it that we believe in the ecosystem and if the ecosystem for public blockchain grow we believe that so will be our business as well so that's what part of it the other part of it that you know sometimes I feel a little bit proud of as well is it's aligned to our vision as well because we believe in building a better working both and a lot of what we do with blockchain is about that and we can't see that happening so much on the private blockchain but we do believe that some of these things that we contribute to the public domain will enhance that growth as well so you know I I personally feel a little a little bit proud when the organization eventually allows us to open source that to as well obviously we still have a long way to go right but I think that is a small step towards that grand vision if you know why yeah I think it's about trusting the ecosystem trusting not just european but trusting the new generation of technologies will make better use of our design than we ourselves would uh which is the you know beauty of democracy right uh I think this this is um and I totally agree this is why I release everything uh free of copyrights I just want to make sure that you're internally consistent and coherent about this decision which sounds you are so great thank you next mr I I have a very silly question as well you are obviously very well versed and well well connected on the blockchain scene and ecosystem um but what's your view of how is Taiwan as a as a whole right in the in the public sector as well in the private sector in terms of usage of blockchain how how you know how you think the maturity is as a you know as a country well Taiwan is heavily Ethereum biased you probably already know that uh and um frankly speaking um before Ethereum um goes to you know full proof of work that the full serenity thing uh there's already um a lot of people developing things in Taiwan uh that's kind of um leap of faith I think that's an English term took a leap of faith that will eventually happen so whatever the prototype um is um aligned with that eventual goal uh much like you um took a leap of faith on the public ecosystem will will finally win out all right as accountability share infrastructure layer so I would say we're philosophically aligned uh and then um from the public sector point of view there's a lot of uses uh for um the the uh like the second um copy of accountability but not as the primary single source of truth the single source of truth is still guarded using traditional ways uh a a VPN and isolated network defense in depth and things like that and that's because of our cybersecurity situation uh we um which I don't need to elaborate um and and so uh I think the cybersecurity angle always motivates uh government people to think in terms not of uh like mathematical proof against all attacks uh and and I mean um I saw that in your say private zone transactions you use a rudimentary version of something like homomorphic encryption uh which for most mathematicians and it should be good enough but uh the taiwan people would entertain scenarios like the adversary already have a quantum computer of x qubits and things like that that's hidden hidden from our view uh and and so so we consider threat models that are um frankly speaking a little paranoid uh that that will uh occur to to other blockchain governance uh actors and so because of that um analysis uh through and that part is quite rational actually so the rational analysis um the end result is that you see uh for example zk rp uh used but the person who did a testation uh is still connected to the national insurance agencies uh main app which is powered by this off public internet um private infrastructure and so one just because uh in that case that all hope is lost on the connectivity to the public mainline uh through whatever attack we can still recover uh through the source of truth from this off internet uh network and so on so um there's quite a bit of this resilience slash bunker thinking in the taiwanese public administration and that's my view anyway well great yeah thanks thanks for sharing uh that's a very valid point as well and uh uh on a separate note even a lot of the architecture that we do on public blockchain uh the a lot of the content definitely is not on the blockchain itself also uh is not off-chain you know and that gives an extra layer of security as well uh so only the hash is on the on the public chain well for traceability purposes are there any are there any use cases that has already gone into production uh using public internet quite a few actually uh there's the taiwan blockchain alliance that lists uh those uh real applications and the presidential hackathon uh constantly introduced new ideas that if they win the top five um like five uh first place winners uh per year then the president commits uh to to make that happen uh within the next year or so so it's um executive power as um I guess per hackathon award uh so coming from the presidential hackathon is for example instead of the ic card based national health card uh insurance card um which requires face-to-face uh transaction um with doctors um in the uh like the lanyu uh a indigenous island um people can use the their phone uh even potentially offline situations um to transact just with a camera and t o t p q r code and so on and to complete a health insurance check-in and so on and uh people on that island I think actually experimented with a local currency the dao coin um also uh which is a classical community currency uh with um this um like impactful um resource distribution so that's tailored to only make culturally significant transactions for the indigenous people and so on uh and the related national health insurance application is for example if you're starting a marathon then um you can say that here are the acceptable ranges of uh health indicators uh so that the runners would not suffer um consequences uh when they start this marathon but instead of revealing any of their diagnostic information to you they can ask the n h i to publish a az k r p um proof uh that this person is fit for the marathon or not uh without revealing any particular things and and and so on so but but all these have the same shape you probably already noticed that it doesn't really take away the centralized trust the core single source of truth is still somewhere um somewhere else it's not that the blockchain protocol or the governance or the math proof itself somehow um takes some of those uh trust uh into a zero trust or even just less trust configuration it's all just to make auditing easier um and and it's basically um that the same thing as well i think ecosystem resource planning is actually a pretty good labor for these sort of things it's just to simplify resource planning it is not radical in other senses so you you are you are right i think i like those examples because i i feel that well technically it's not not complex but operationally simplifies a lot of things for the agencies they are very practical solutions that results in a lot of time savings just say for example validating a person's records or checking a person's records uh and it enhances the privacy as well in one aspect right that's right because it involves uh it it probably has to be manual it probably has to have full calls or exchanges to get it true i i do feel it's a you know excellent use of the technology in very practical ways as well um and and you are right to point out in a lot of cases we are not looking at zero trust right we are looking at trusting something on this case it is validating that the record is provided on the blockchain is provided or certified by the right authorities right and we know that it's correct there so uh i i thought it's a good use case as well yeah um maybe the the gross sorry i was going to say that the gross level of efficiency gain the reduction of administrative burden on regulated entities and so on again back to kind of the the purpose of this and and and the incentives if you can get those to be aligned and you can get that level of administrative cost way down just that that to me is this is the first time is the first benefit the administrative cost reduction is the second benefit and sometimes you know we're we're we're working with governments where those gains are sort of 10 percent of total program costs but the biggest impact is when you can connect the financial understanding of what efficiency sort of the efficient prices to the effectiveness side because then you get to start to change allocated efficiency and when you're thinking about you know literally the trillions of dollars that are spent around the year with public purpose if we can start to influence the productivity gain at that level that's where that's where the benefits really start to come sure and to give you point if they don't it doesn't have to be done in a trustless environment the value is there even in a trusted environment and i think that's one of the more elegant dimensions of it certainly um i do have a a um kind of um um a gap between what i understand now uh from your um open source governance um state of play which is most users eventually taking hard forks or elite hard copies uh of the existing state of code toward uh the kind of um you know different silos with their own value accounting systems but just because they use the same underlying 940 design somehow um connecting their instruments of accounting together i'm not quite um i mean i understand from from the kind of principle like if everyone use the internet there are ways to write sufficient numbers adapters that can connect any two systems together as long as they are all on public internet i understand around this um abstract level topological level but in reality we know if both sides are our moving parts then this work doesn't get done it's not likely that they will come to governance agreement without some sort of standard making body and that's only if the incentives align to make such a standard body work so what i'm trying to get it is that even if we do use um the the the knife or infrastructure for quite a few agencies and so one but um because they are probably hardworking everything and um publishing only to their known upstreams and downstreams what's what's your plan or are there any cases that they there are kind of this spontaneous horizontal connections that can actually serve as the kind of value bridge that uh mark described uh between different data silos has this been done definitely and i could take that that question um so i think that that's you know part of the reason why we're encouraging going from uh private blockchain networks to public blockchain networks i think is the same case we make here for being on one um in this case one night for our one zero knowledge proof so i definitely agree um i think that that's that's important to kind of rally rally our little developers and basically make sure that we're using one uh single source of truth when it comes to zero knowledge proofs that being said um you know part of part of this being in the public domain is allowing uh competition so to speak so um if there is um if as a result a group has decided to make a new and improved version that that the community decides to adopt then you know um we ideally should be adopting those updates as well so um we're open to open to ideas and competition and hard forks um again the important part here is for everyone to align yeah sure but what i'm asking is that assuming your open office and liberal office happened what's your merging back um track history uh for this project or some other project has has this happened before not yet um there has at least keep up to date with all of the uh updated zero knowledge proof requests um but again if if we'll have to adapt and uh in a sense if they want to make a PR back to nightfall with all of their suggestions and updates then we'll definitely review and merge it back in yeah because they're not legally compelled to so um the only thing that compels them to is your goodwill uh right so i'm just making sure there's a goodwill on a kind of ideology level and we'll see whether that happens in practice i have to run to another meeting but this has been really fruitful i learned a lot thank you all for staying up so late for this meeting thank you thank you thank you thank you really appreciate your time as well thank you live long and prosper bye thank you thank you