 You know why? Because I don't interview with your life like you try to interview their friends. Well, you abuse animals through your lifestyle, that's all. I want to tell you, you abuse animals through your lifestyle. We're just teaching people that fish actually feel pain and don't want to die today. So I thought you might want to know. None of us want to die. Yeah, so we shouldn't kill anyone, should we? Oh, somebody's got to eat it, otherwise a lot of people survive on the fish, they can't help themselves. Yeah, but what about you? Can you survive without fish? I don't eat fish very often, but I catch tropical fish for my aquarium. Oh, and you keep them in the little aquarium prison? Yeah, well, not a prison at all, because those ones come down in the warm currents when they... Oh, so you're rescuing them, you mean? Well, they die otherwise. Oh, that's a different situation. They come down in the warm currents in summer, and then when the winter comes, the water gets cold, they can't survive. They get eaten by other fish. You never see that old one, ever. So you have to look out, you're basically rescuing these fish and offering them a sanctuary. Yeah, the people don't see it that way, but if you left them there, they get eaten. Okay, so if I come into your fish tank, I like doing these hypothetical philosophy sort of things. If I come into your fish tank and stab them up, torture them a little bit, and then put them on my plate and ate them, would you think I was a bit of a psychopath? I think you were, because they're only about that big, so you could be pretty hungry up here. Yeah, maybe could make a kebab, but you like those fish, you appreciate those fish in your tank, yeah, yeah. What makes them any different to the fish that get dragged up by the billion for people's plates? The difference is that the fish I'm doing are going to die anyhow, the fish you're doing are not necessarily going to die. Well, I'm going to die anyhow. Yeah, so are they. But yeah, we're all going to die anyhow, but what I'm saying is, does that make the murder of the billions of them justified for a quick snack? Well, I don't know if it's a quick snack, it's a protein source, without that source, we wouldn't be here. That's debatable. I mean, yeah, it actually is. We wouldn't be here because an ancient man survived on protein, they didn't grow crops, they didn't know how. Well, they forage for tubers and things like this as well, but let's just say what you're saying is true. Well, okay, let's just, I will agree with you, I think it was cooking food, mainly that helped our brains grow. No, no, no. Yeah, more calories. An ancient man didn't cook food, an ancient man ate raw food. Well, let me just say, okay, all right, let's just say that's true. If we needed to do it back then, do we need to do it now? I guess the argument is, if it was here on this earth to provide food for people, it still provides food for people. I think we overfished and I would disagree, I would agree completely with stopping overfishing, but I think it's a resource that needs to be harvested. If you didn't harvest fish, let's look at it from another perspective. What would happen? If you didn't harvest fish, you would end up starving because there'd be no food. Wait a second, they eat each other, don't they? Well, it's up to us. Because what's happening is they're taking fundamental parts of the ecosystem, like fundamental species out of the ecosystem from overfishing, and then it's causing extinction down the line. So if people are eating tuna, they're actually killing a bunch of dolphins as well, and if you're eating a certain species of fish, they're killing a bunch of sea turtles. Dolphins are mammals, and it kills fish, and that fish kills fish. Yeah, but I'm talking about by-catch. By-catch, something that shouldn't happen. Yeah, well it happens because of commercial fishing, that's what I'm saying, it's unavoidable. Yeah, but once going back to the original argument, if you were to leave the species on their own without this natural predator, without a natural predator, you would end up overfishing. Would you say that we're a natural predator to the fish? Certainly. The way that we plunder the oceans? No, they're going to the plunder side. You ask me if we're a natural predator to the fish, and we are. But if you start talking plunder, you're going in a different direction. Yeah, so do you agree with that what's natural is ethical? I think what's natural is ethical, yes. How do you do it? Do you think anything that's natural is ethical? I think we kill meat and fish as an animal would kill meat and fish. Animals kill each other, you know? Yes, should we? I'm asking if it's ethical, I'm not asking whether we do it, whether it's natural. We're discussing ethics. Yeah, we are, and we're talking about the ethics of eating fish, because fish feel pain in their sentient, yeah? Well, if we get back to original argument, we're an animal. You know sharks, they kill each other, lions kill each other, they eat each other. The animals rape each other in the wild as well, you know about that. But you don't agree with doing those things in society, yeah? We've lifted ourselves above certain animals. But anyone else that's not a human, we can do what we want to them, torture them. I don't agree with that at all. Well, what happens to the sea animals is worse than what we do to nearly any animal in the world. There's not even any humane slaughter guidelines for sea animals. They just drag them out onto the boat, dump them on the boat, let them suffocate on top of each other, and then they just gut them and... We've got to get back to the original reason for us eating them in the first place. We don't need to do it now, that's what I'm saying. I've been vegan for eight years. Yeah, we do. For what reason? For protein? Protein, you've got... Do I look like I need protein? Well, you may not, but do you live in Mali? Do you live in near the lakes, the river lakes, and south... You talk about tribes, people that need to fish to survive? Yeah. Oh, well, I'm talking about you sitting here in Sydney right now, looking over at this... Well, I have every fish, so... Do you... I like fishing my fish tank. I don't eat fish. Well, very rarely, very rarely. You know what I talk to you about? Ethics seems to only a little bit of animals, but it seems to be every single day, three times a day. I eat all the time. Yeah, so you eat land animals. Well, without the land animals, you wouldn't have them. Why would they exist? Yeah, but I mean, if I had a... I'll ask you a question. Why would they exist? Well, it's better to not exist than to exist in... and to be grown just to be slaughtered inside of a slaughterhouse. Well, that could be the... Yeah, I mean, the chickens... Well, I school the cows and the sheep on the eating grass at the moment, so would you rather not exist, or would you rather have an existence that lasts maybe three years than you slaughtered? Well, three years is a fraction of their lifespan. You know, cows live to 25. Yeah, well, even... So you're slaughtering, like, innocent little babies. Well, we don't slaughter innocent little babies. We may kill the veal calf, and the reason we kill the veal calf is because they have to produce milk with a female calf. Without the veal, we can't get milk. So we have... So we don't need to... We basically don't need the milk. Well, if you don't drink milk, then you've got a real pop of milk. I don't drink milk. It's like you were talking about. I don't drink milk. When am I going to die without titty juice from a cow? You wouldn't, but there would be a lot of people who wouldn't. Do you stop drinking milk when you're a baby, like your mother's milk, yeah? Sorry? Have you been to India? I've been to India. They milk a lot of cows there, but it's not a necessity. It is a necessity. No, it's not. They don't kill them. Well, what are they... Well, they do kill them in India. Yes, they do. They're one of the biggest leather exporters in the world. They actually kill them off country. They export the leather out. They may well kill them. What are you going to do with all the spent dairy cows? They don't produce milk. They kill them all. Yeah. And what do you do? What would you do if you didn't kill them? You can make cashew milk. You can make peanut milk. You can make almond milk. You can make oat milk. What about countries with no cashews? What about no almonds? No oats. No rice. The only protein they get. What about rice? Give me another protein other than rice. What would you do? You lived in an Asian country. What would you eat? Rice and beans. And no protein at all. There's protein in both rice and beans. But you would have people starving. No, not at all. If you get enough calories, my friend, if you get enough calories, you get enough protein. I don't necessarily agree because in some countries... Name one fruit that doesn't contain protein. Name one food. Name one food. A banana's 5% protein. 5% is nothing to live on. No, if you... Well, I'm not saying to just eat bananas. I'm just saying name one fruit that doesn't have protein. It all has protein. The original argument was started about fish. You've moved into all countries. No, because you're taking it into the health side, like we need to eat animals to survive. I'm telling you that's a load of nonsense. I said people in certain countries need to get protein from someone. Well, that doesn't necessarily mean factory farming animals and butchering them. But you right here, I'm asking you why you eat meat. Because I eat meat because I've always eaten meat. Are you eating it to survive? Are you eating it because you need it? If you don't have meat, you'll die. It's a tradition. You've always eaten meat. Okay, well, slavery was a tradition. Racism was a tradition. I don't care what's traditional. We want to know what's ethical, what's moral. Man's kind of... Go back to our marital argument. Man's kind of would not be here. We wouldn't be here if we didn't rape and pillage each other either. Because... Yeah, no, no, no. Empires conquering other empires. You're probably a product of tribes raping each other at some stage. But that doesn't mean that rape is therefore morally justified. I'm saying murder's probably been... You don't pitch your argument. Don't go off into rapes. No, no, no. I'm talking about ethical... On ethical things, being part of history, being part of how we got here to civilization, so is war. That doesn't mean war should continue. But we had, in order to survive... We had to eat animals. We had to eat each other at some stages as well. We had to cannibalize each other. No, we have had to cannibalize each other to survive. You know that. But for the sake of this argument, you would avoid that. But we have had to eat each other to survive. You're not winning your argument, are you? Well, we have had to do that. I'm saying it's not ethical to do that now. When we don't need to, right now I can go get a vegan burger or I can cut your head off and eat you. Right now you can go get a vegan burger or you can cut a chicken's head off and eat the chicken. 100 years ago you couldn't go to vegan. Well, it's not 100 years ago. Luckily it's right now when we're having this debate right now on the street. Why have you all of a sudden and people like you decided that it's wrong for us to do things we've been doing... Because torturing... You believe animals can suffer? I think certain animals can suffer, yes. Well, okay. Do you believe... Why not? Well, what if I wanted to eat the dog? What if I wanted to eat the dog? Well, if you wanted to eat the dog because you had no choice, you'd eat it. Well, I've got a choice right now between a vegan burger and a dog. I choose the dog because I want it traditional. I like the taste of dog meat. I need protein. All of the arguments that you use, I want to eat the dog. What are you talking about us and here? You're not talking about people who eat dog. I don't know. What's the difference between a dog and a cow? See, this is where you're tripping over. And this is why I talk to people about... Well, a dog has got intelligence. A cow hasn't got intelligence. A cow doesn't have intelligence. A cow doesn't have intelligence. A dog serves... Science isn't on your side, brother. A cow doesn't... A cow doesn't have intelligence. A cow serves to mankind is food. Who says? Human supremacists? Like, people... You dictate what the cow's here for and what the dog's here for? Well, no, the dog does that. The dog develops a relationship with man. The cow did develop a relationship with man. Well, will you say farmers don't have a relationship with cows? Well, sanctuary people in a sanctuary don't have a relationship with... In India, they don't have a... India, there's no relationship with cows? Well, cow is a sacred animal in India. Well, you just said man doesn't have a relationship with cows. It doesn't mean it has a relationship with it. They don't... Well, it doesn't matter. What I want to know is, are they... They don't guard man. They don't feed healthy man with hunting. They don't do any of those things. I want to know if the animal is aware of themselves and aware of their suffering that they feel. Well, I certainly do. A cow may... Are you against torturing a cow? You don't torture a cow. No, no, that's not what I asked whether you do it or whether you don't. I'll say, are you against it, morally, if I was to torture a cow? If it came between me... No, no, no, no, no, that's not the question. No, no, no, you've got to ask the cow... Wouldn't you be against me without you there? Me torturing a cow for no apparent reason. Just torturing them. We don't torture cows. No, no, I'm not... That's not... You're asking the question with the question. Are you against... Are you against... Would you be against me torturing a cow? Yeah, sure. Okay, why if the cow doesn't matter morally if they have no intelligence? Who cares? I think they'll just see it as a stupid act. No, but if they don't matter morally, why would you care if I just torture a cow? Because what you're doing is immoral. Wait a second. So what I'm doing is immoral if I just torture a cow, but when you pay for them to go into a slaughterhouse where they have their throat slashed open, is not immoral. It's completely different between... You know there's a difference. Animals are tortured in slaughterhouses if you haven't seen lately. You know we've got rules against stuff like that. You know that. You're just... Activist leave cameras in slaughterhouses all the time. I've been doing this for eight years. I've seen a lot of suffering in slaughterhouses. You're kidding yourself. If you don't think torture happens in animal agriculture. No, no, no. Cows are tortured in the dairy industry. They have their horns cut off. They're disbudding. Okay. I just feel like you're trying to justify something you know is wrong. No, no, no. I don't have to justify my behaviour. I'm not causing this up. No, I'm not cutting animals' heads off, though. I'm asking people to stop. I'm trying to stop people from causing suffering to innocent beings. So... I don't care. They've been raping and killing each other the same amount of time. Well, what gives you the right to abuse animals? So what? Rape has always happened. We've always done it. I'm going to go rape and kill and murder. Well, exactly. So animals aren't even protected by laws. That's how much... No, no, no. You can treat animals a property. What do you think we have the RSPCA for? RSPCA, they put their stamp of approval on chopped-up animal bodies. I think you need to deal with someone who hasn't got to go like that. Okay, okay. That's cool. But I also think that you have no right to inflict your views on other people. You have no right to inflict your views on innocent animals. I don't have to inflict anything on you. You have no right to abuse animals. I haven't inflicted anything on you. No. You're doing it. It's a conversation. But now it's clear that you don't view animals as moral. That's my privilege. You treat them with contempt. Have I said to you, I think you should change your views. Have I changed your views? No, but you can have your views. Have I said to you once, you need to change your views. Once. I don't know. Why? Because I don't interview with your life like you try to. Well, you abuse animals through your lifestyle. That's all I want to tell you. You abuse animals through your lifestyle. And you can have that view, but it's a moral one. Well, if you don't want to change your views on animals, and you can just, you know, be a conscious animal abuser. Very difficult. It's almost like he kept sliding away from questions and things. I think he knew where they were going. All right, so there you have it. That was interesting, like a little social experiment there that you can do with a TV, a little battery, some footage and a sign to walk up and down and talk to people. Got into some good debates and met an amazing sea life activist there. And, you know, it's a good little way to educate people. Just planting that seed is so important. Fishbill pain is such a small, you know, phrase, such a simple phrase, but it's really the implications of that phrase. If fishbill pain, you shouldn't be causing them pain and suffering. They're self-aware. They should be protected. They should be protected with rights. So that's the theme we're going to be running here. Fish should be protected with, you know, rights. Rights protecting their life and making sure they're not being dragged out of the ocean by the trillions. So look at that beautiful backdrop behind us. Tomorrow we've got something interesting planned and going to a horrific place for sea animals, but we'll have to wait and see what it is. Can I just look at the hooks? I want one that's going to really stab into the face to pull them out. Just going to have a look here. Prisoner. A massive tuner, eh? It's interesting as people will pay to go and see these animals, but they'll then go into a restaurant and pay for other sea animals to be murdered. Thank you.