 All right. Hello everybody who is watching us live today. I'm going to be talking to your on Brooke. You're on is the chairman of the board at the I'm Brad Institute and he is the author of the or co-author of the book equal is unfair and He recently had an event in the UK with sarkin of a cod talking about free speech and the objectivist ethics, but unfortunately the event was Interrupted by violence perpetrated by antifa protesters So that is what we're going to be talking about today drawing can you tell us a bit about what you think caused or motivated these protesters to rise to such violence because We've seen that antifa has risen to violence plenty of times in the past They've been all over the news the past a couple years, but now you've got to experience them firsthand So do you have any insights into what kind of motivates them? Well, I mean what motivates them is is nihilism what motivates them is to knock down everybody anybody who disagrees with them anybody's outside of the mainstream and If you're radical in any kind of dimension, then it's they have a built-in kind of excuse to knock you down But they really hate everybody and what drives them and motivates them is really hatred kind of hatred of the good for being the good hatred of You know hatred of ideas hatred of values But in in this case, you know KCL Kings College London is a university that is very Leftist it's very, you know, we were told in advance that there would be safe space Marshals at the event. This is before antifa before demonstrations before anything We were told we would only be allowed to hold the event if safe space Safe space marshals Well that could attend and of course they had the authority to shut down the event at any point in time Then the weekend before the event a number of student groups including the local pro-palestinian group and other groups Decided that they were gonna organize a big demonstration To prohibit the event. They didn't actually get a lot of people to come and demonstrate Although on Facebook, I think 150 people said they would come But that scared the administration so the administration then Decided the morning of the event that they wouldn't allow anybody who is not a student to attend the event so you can see kind of an escalation of events That and T4 would say okay the administration seems kind of to be intimidated You know, they feed off of weakness They've got all these other student groups at the university in a sense supporting the idea that we shouldn't even be holding this event So I think it was an easy target for them at the end of the day and again KCL Kings College London is a hub of these leftist kind of nihilistic groups in Among students in the UK. I don't think we don't think on T4 is very active in Oxford and Cambridge. I Mean they might be but I just don't I don't I wouldn't expect it and this event was hosted by the Einbrandt Center and the KLC Libertarian Society. Do you think they were intimidated by Andy Fah? No, I mean after I have to admit that the KCL Libertarians were really stood up to them and the guy who Moderated was supposed to moderate that the discussion between Saugran and myself and who organized event Daniel I forget his family name, but it's actually a Muslim name is Was very courageous. He wrote an op-ed afterwards in the spectator newspaper in London He stood up to them. He has been advocating for a long time on Kings College London as has the entire Libertarian organization for the elimination of safe spaces and a speech code Codes on on campus. So so they have been quite good in terms of free speech. They're actually hosting another free speech again with Saugran Abhakar and Objectivist Rucka Rucka and One other guy, I guess some guy who taught his dog to do a Nazi salute and might be going to jail in England So they're doing a whole free speech panel I think either this week or next week and then they've invited me back sometime in April next time In England so they want to really use the Tifa thing to really hit hard hit back hard and Catch the administration if you will a bit on a defensive because the administration feels horrible about what happened And this is opportunity really to host more events to bring our ideas to the forefront I think we'll get much larger audiences of students because of what Antifa did. I mean Antifa Antifa in many respects Was a really good thing in the sense that it created a huge amount of publicity my my YouTube subscribers went up by something like 1200 people and my Twitter followers increased by a thousand. So thank you Antifa for all of that I made almost every newspaper in in the UK. So I think the publicity is something we need to capitalize on and utilize and Take advantage of Yeah, this this raises questions about the practicality of Antifa's methods or just violence in general So, you know, is this kind of is this practical? I mean in one sense they you know, once since they shut you down They did were at least had to required you to move to another location But on the other hand There are some benefits to or at least benefits for you to what happened. Well, but it's more than that I think I think the more violent a Tifa becomes the more vigorous the profuy speech People become and the more likely the Administrations at universities are to be supportive of free speech So I think it actually backfires completely and by the way the same as to of Islamists, right? You look the left is winning on campuses. They don't need Antifa They're gonna dominate if free speech is being restricted without Antifa of free speech is being limited without Antifa this The speech codes the safe space the safe space places All of these things are happening on campuses without Antifa just because of the dominance on the left on campuses What Antifa does is it rallies the forces the anti-left forces to rise up against them and in a sense defeat them The same thing by the way happens with Islamists Europe is being you know be taken over by Muslims Europeans capitulating left and right all over Europe to Muslim demands about taking down Paintings of Mohammed about not publishing cartoons about don't only think they're winning, right? So the French government was going after Charlie Hebdo Before the the terrorists went after Charlie Hebdo, right? What did the terrorists achieve they achieved massive sympathy for Charlie Hebdo and what they achieved was a rise of Kind of a free speech kick the Muslims out kind of attitude in Europe So violence doesn't work violence actually backfires in these kind of situations They're all actually the bad guys in the world are winning. They don't need to be violent Just just let it play out and they would actually have a good chance of winning the violence actually retards their cause and Antifa is significantly I think retarding their cause right and then You know in some sense, I would say that they Antifa recognizes that they're fighting ideas, which is interesting. So they aren't just fighting you and Sargon They think it's a much grander They view it on much grander scale, but they use violence as their means So what do you think is the proper way of combating? Evil ideas or bad ideas in the culture? Well, I mean violence is a sign that they reject the means of challenging bad ideas, which is reason reason argumentation other means by which you you you challenge ideas Bad mediocre all ideas. I mean ultimately the standard is reality It's facts and the only way to know those facts and no reality is by use of reason but that's the whole point the point is that the the the Antifa and the Fundamentalist left or the fall left and rejected reality rejected facts and rejected reason. I mean they've been they've been raised on this post-modern rejection of The efficacy of human reason of rationality. So what do you have left all you have left is emotion And indeed this is true of the entire left, right? All they have left is emotion They don't have reason There's a small faction of people on the left who still are advocates of reason people like Steven Pinker and Sam Harris and people like that but but but but the left that is dominant today on campuses is a left that by Rejecting reason leaves only one avenue open to itself and that is the use of force When when you can't argue when you can't debate when you can't convince when you can use logic When you can't point to facts all you can do is raise a fist Right and during the event After they had interrupted the event you had you said that they were the real fascists So can you elaborate on what you mean by that? Sure. I mean in a sense look that Everybody said oh, they're not fascists the communists. I mean big difference, right? It's the same thing The point is that they're the authoritarians They're the ones who want to silence. They're the ones who want to impose They're the ones who you want to use violence in order to impose their views on everybody else and not accept a Discussion not accept a debate not accept reason as the standard so in that sense Yeah, they're fascists in the sense that they want to dictate how every one of us should live What we should think what our view should be and and God forbid we have a view that they don't agree with They bring out the fist they bring out the guns immediately So one one indication of fascism Is the intolerance in terms of willingness to use violence For ideas you don't agree with it's not just a moral judgment I don't agree with a lot of ideas and I judge them. I say those ideas are evil It's going from those ideas are evil to You know, let's go and use force against those people who use those ideas That's kind of what makes them authoritarian Fascists communists. I mean, they're really what they really are as nihilists But if I shouted at them, look, you know, just a bunch of nihilists. They probably would have taken as a compliment I don't think they they understand what nihilism Or maybe they do understand but but but I don't think the public of the the general audience understands The nihilism is the real evil here. It's it's not that they are For any set of ideas. These are not even communists in old fascists for that matter In the old traditional sense of they have a vision for society one day where we're all running around You know, uh to each according to his needs from each according to his ability and some Naked utopia, you know fulicking and having fun. They don't believe in anything like that or they don't believe in a fascist Um, uh utopia one day. They don't believe in anything. They believe in destruction. They believe in knocking stuff down They believe in the the the anti values and and they don't have any positive values to offer in replacement It's not like a tifa. If you ask them, well, what do you stand for they have anything to say, you know, they call themselves Communist anarchists and yes, they they they want the complete destruction of society complete destruction of civilization And it's of course communist anarchist is a completely meaningless term And it it basically means destruction. It basically means a negation of any values I understand that you Have no hesitation to be making judgments of other people So i'm wondering how you evaluate These anti-fab protesters because so many of them are young and so many of them are students And i've heard you talk before about how you distinguish between Um, you know older adults and young adults in terms of their Their beliefs and their actions. So how do you evaluate these people more? Once you use violence, you're gone. I mean once you use violence The the the moral judgment is easy. You're a bad person. You're immoral You know What degree of evil you are maybe because you're young they're not you don't quite attain the highest degree of evil But you're still evil. So the the use of force is not something that you can justify or excuse or Pretend to be innocent about Force is wrong. I mean kids know this in the playground They'd be taught by by hopefully they've been taught by adults that this is wrong There's the evidence is overwhelming to know what a what a society is like That silences people And not only to advocate for such a society But then to actually act out as if you live in such a society as if you then force it in such a society Is inexcusable. So so no they are they are evil and And they are bad people and they are immoral, you know, are they redeemable? Sure. I mean They are young and and uh, it suddenly is Possible that some of them in five years will look up back and and hopefully apologize And feel bad about what they did when they were young But that doesn't mitigate what they are right now, right? What they are right now is what they are right now They can redeem themselves and then there'll be better people. But right now they immoral They're clearly immoral people And and that's true. I mean, that's generally I think a principle that You you can't innocently Initiate force the initiation of force is a is a red line It crosses you over to the realm of immorality almost at any age. I mean, yeah, sure 12 year old Okay, I mean and I don't want anybody to come go back into my background and find all the fighting I did in school but um, but after a certain age when when you're You know when we could consider people morally responsible 16 18 whatever it happens to be Certainly if you're initiating force you're a bad person Yeah, it certainly seems that to uh, once we Expect people to use their minds to be able to use reason and deal with people rationally then yeah, there's no excuse for violence No, and of course You know that has to be the expectation because there's no other way If we don't expect that then we've accepted the idea that violence is the only way in which to deal in society And that's a sad day for all of us If to live in in in that kind of context so I think we have to expect that the standard is reason that the standard is debates and discussion And uh, I think even the opponents even you know, most people on the left don't use violence Most people on the right even the right that I don't like don't use violence It's only a certain subsection of them that use violence and it you know those who do are beyond the pale I want to bring up another group that you adamantly pose which is the alt-right And so I'm interested to hear how you compare antifa to the alt-right At least in terms of how they protest or perhaps the ideas that they are motivated by Well, antifa has a much larger base of support right now particularly on campuses So they can get away with the violence And antifa is also viewed by the culture as almost acceptable, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're just fighting fascists, right? They're just fighting neo-nazis. They're just fighting bad guys. So there's a tolerance of them Which makes them more powerful Which gives them more Energy which gives them more Moxie to actually go out there and and and act and do this stuff I think the alt-right for the most part, you know, put aside some of the neo-nazi groups that protest in places like portland where you are and I think they have a regular protest in portland or or what we saw in charlottesville If you put aside some of those events the alt-right for the most part hides behind, you know Pseudo names on the internet They're vicious. They're vile. They're disgusting. They're horrible. They're awful. They're really really nasty people And from a mall perspective, their ideas are just as evil as antifa's ideas. They are just as nihilistic They are just as disgusting But they're not yet quite as violent and quite as prominent Because I don't think they have the support network for it. That is the culture is not in a position to support them The culture is much more left in that sense much more inclined to support antifa than is inclined to support the alt-right now that could change as as kind of the I think the You know, some of the people who support trump get more and more frustrated and move more and more to kind of the the collectivistic right That, uh, you know, the alt-right will get more emboldened to go and do stuff But I think right now they're fairly weak um Again, their primary Means of battle is to harass people on twitter and I've been I've been exposed to that You know, it's it's some of the most disgusting vile stuff. I've seen that, you know, the anti-semitism the racism the explicit uh, the explicit authoritarianism the You know, they really revere hitler Um, and it it's just I mean, it's hard to imagine right, but there it is It's it's the alt-left is very much like antifa just not quite ready yet to come out and install in the barricades of you There was a moment uh during the protest that there's and there's quite a few images of you And sargon holding the flag up Um, and so one of the things that I wanted to ask about though is before you hold up held up the flag You were stomping on the flag and I'm curious about Uh, what you think what what do you think the message that stands to either to antifa or to other other watchers Well, I mean the sense of message that in a sense we want and we're not going to get we're not going to let them win That is that that we're not going to let them silence us. We're not going to let them intimidate us Um the stomping in the flag is is symbolically stomping on their ideas stomping on their movement, but really Uh a sign of uh indignation and and unwillingness to surrender to them So, you know the fact that they got stormy in with this flag and they lose it And somebody in the audience grabbed it. It wasn't me or sargon who actually grabbed the flag It was somebody in the audience who then handed it to us It's it's the flag means something to them. It's it's symbolic for them and for us to have the flag And and to you know stomp on it. I think stomping on it is more substantial than waving it Indicates the you know, again, we're not intimidated. We're not afraid and they will not silence us Right And then what what does it look like for the future for you? Are you going to continue speaking at universities? Yeah, I mean I you know, I I it never stops, right? So I'll be I'll be at two universities next week. I'll be at University of North Carolina Wilmington on monday next week. I'll be at cornell university on wednesday Then the following week. I'm actually doing an event with dave rubin. So maybe a t4 will show up there at central florida university in orlando So that I think that's three universities and then I I'll continue In april I do a lot of talks at universities outside of the u.s. So Starting in latin america. I'm doing a lot of events in argentina and brazil and then in eastern europe, so so be a hungry ukraine and And hopefully if all the logistics work out, I'll be back at king's college on april 12th To stick it to them with another event I I I hope maybe just to give a lecture my talk on on free speech So You know And I think what will happen is that the administration this time will take security seriously and actually Spend some money To secure the place and t4 won't show up because they're afraid when there's real security And but it'll you know, it'll teach it'll teach the university a little lesson And it'll teach the audience a lesson and I think it'll be a good event if you know, we'll see if it'll happen Um, and then you know, and then it keeps going may June you know, it slows down in the summer because you guys go on holiday It's quite a life being a student and then Um And then it starts up in september again with with universities and the other thing I'm doing a lot of his high schools and I did I did a few talks on free speech in england at high schools this last trip so The younger we can expose people to these ideas the better Is my view That's all excellent to hear So I'd like to ask one final question and because because thrive Strives audience is mostly composed of students I'd like to ask if you have any advice for students who oppose antifa And perhaps want to support people like you who are promoting free speech But you know, don't necessarily know how to either handle their classmates or their peers or their friends who Are on the other side of the fence Yeah, I mean I I'd say inviting me to campus. I mean that would be one thing to do get one of the get one of the Pro free speech groups on campus whether the the libertarians or the conservatives or the republicans or the democrats or the Or the liberal pro speech free speech group whatever to to invite to invite Me or Steve simpson or Dave rubin or one of these guys start to do an event on campus I mean I'd also Suggest I mean you have to speak up. This is not an issue Where you can afford to stay silent. It is your generation That is going to suffer the consequences of what is going on today in campuses I'll I'll probably be long dead when they when they when they when this is fully manifest And you guys are in your middle age and and you have to live under authoritarian government And I hope that doesn't happen. I I don't expect it to happen But the rid that is the real risk. That's what that's what the fight is really about And in many respects, that's more your fight than my fight. So I would encourage people to speak up to talk to debate To not back down without being obnoxious I talk a lot about I think objectives are way too obnoxious and and turn people off You can you can say all the things you want to say in a nice pleasant tone You can say all the things you want to say using reason and logic And when when somebody on the other side is unreceptive walk away There's zero There's zero Reason to keep talking to somebody who doesn't want to hear what you have to say You know, unless you're doing it for an audience I mean I do it all the time because there's an audience like when I debate people They don't really care what I say and I don't really care what they say. I'm debating the audience I'm talking to the audience. That's that's who I care about. It's not the person on stage with me, but Don't come across as obnoxious don't come across as authoritarian You know, I'm authoritarian for free speech, you know Come across as pro reason as using logic as looking at facts As defending free speech from the right perspective. Listen to what Uncle Garte has to say about free speech. He's very good on this I've got some talks on free speech and of course steve simpson Is writing there's a lot of material on the ironman institute website on free speech And steve just did an event I think last week at bookly But um, there's a lot of content out there by objectivists now On free speech go back and read some iron man on free speech and look look it up in the lexicon. It's in it's in the lexicon You know and so go into the discussion go into the debate well armed with some good Examples and some good arguments and and You know and don't back down to the other side on the other hand You know again, you don't have to pound away at them You know, let them know that you disagree. Let them know that you have arguments. Let them know that there's another position here And that's enough and you can walk away after that All right, I think that's all very great advice So, uh, for those of you who are watching live, uh, thank you for thank you for watching and I want to encourage you to Drive get involved with strife, you know start up start up strike groups on campuses and get involved with the with the undergraduate newspaper and and You know Create your own. I mean your generation has tools at your disposal of my generation did not have Which is the internet and so use it. I mean It's a it's an unbelievable tool use it not just a you know BS with with friends on facebook could use it to create communities Of people who think alike that can then strategize about how to go out and change the world Because we need an army out there people who are who are committed to changing the world And I think you have technology on your side You have technology that you can use to do exactly that And you guys know how to use this technology, you know, I'm you know, I'm constantly battling trying to figure this technology out You guys, uh, you know, you guys grew up with it use it and and show the world what can be done and show the world How these ideas how the ideas of reason, um A powerful powerful tools for living life and for explaining the world around us Absolutely, and we're always looking for, uh, motivated and talented young people For those who were wanting to learn more about strife, you can always visit our website strifeclubs.org So thank you all for watching. Um, and you're on. Thank you so much for this interview. It's been great to talk to you Pleasure. Good talking to you. Good luck at school. Thanks