 Hi, my name is Mariah Riggs and welcome to On the Waterfront with Mariah Riggs. Today I'm lucky to have David Mears, the Executive Director of Audubon, Vermont, and Vice President of the National Audubon Society. Welcome, David. Thank you, Mariah. It's a pleasure to be here. So let's get a little bit more information about you. How, when did you start at Audubon, Vermont? I started a little over three years ago, it was in the fall of 2018. It seems like a lifetime ago, you know, since we've had the pandemic in between. So you've been there now for four years? Almost. Wow. Well, congratulations. Thank you. And I'm assuming you had quite an interesting road on your way to Audubon, Vermont. So let's get a little clarity. So you, before you came to Audubon, what was your experience and what were you working on? I was at the Vermont Law School, which is the same place I went to law school, but I later went back after a career in government and was a teacher. I taught environmental law at the law school and then got into helping to run kind of, as most people know, it's a very strong environmental program there. So I was involved in helping to manage the whole environmental teaching part of that. Yeah. No, from what I've heard, the Vermont Law School, what it's known for is this environmental program. Absolutely. Yes. So that's, I mean, that's a wonderful thing to bring to an organization like Audubon, Vermont. And so prior to that, you had worked in the government. So had that dealt with policy? Had you actually been a government employee? What kind of work had you done prior? I worked in Vermont. I was the commissioner of the Department of Environmental Conservation for about four and a half, almost five years. Really? Yeah. Which was an awesome gig. Really. People take shots at government, but honestly, it was a great place to work. The people there were amazing. And I liked being part of Vermont government. It was Vermont's a state where people roll up their sleeves to solve problems and get stuff done. Well, what I hear is it's one of the few state houses where you walk in and you can actually talk to the representatives, talk to the senators. They're walking around the hallways. There aren't handlers. It's a very intimate, kind of, you know, more localized government. It's so true. I actually, I got back yesterday for the very first time in, since the pandemic started to be in person there, and it was fun. And you could tell that the legislators themselves were happy to see each other and to see those of us who were going to advocate on various issues. I think even as reclusive as all the Vermonters are, seeing other people at this point is such a special thing after the pandemic. It really is. I think we're all defrosting in more ways than one. I think that's very true. So that's interesting. So you came from a policy law background into Audubon. And you know, so, you know, it always begs the question, what did you know of Audubon before you came on board? I mean, I knew about Audubon what most people know, which is it has something to do with birds. Okay. And I knew actually there's some really important law cases in the history of this country that the National Audubon Society has been part of. And some important cases in Vermont where National Audubon Society has been played an important role. Okay. You can't tell me that. And then not tell me about the awesome law cases. Well, just the Vermont ones at least. But there's a really, I'll tell you about this, one of the most famous cases involving the National Audubon Society is a case out in California involving the question of whether or not people have what they call a public trust right, a commonly held right to have access to water. And whether wildlife have that same kind of right. And there was a lake out in California that was drying up. And there was a lawsuit over whether the city of Los Angeles could continue to dry it up or whether there was a broader obligation to protect the levels in the lake, which was highly very important for a whole host of migratory birds and the National Audubon Society one. So that's one of the cases I used to teach my students. That's so interesting. And you know, I mean, as we all know, there's huge water issues, water right issues in California is not to be messed around. Exactly. It is an important resource out there that we take for granted here in Vermont. So that's very interesting. So I am, you know, and coming to Audubon, I think it's important to, if you could just tell our viewers, what is Audubon? If you were going to like tell somebody your elevator speech, quick synopsis of what is Audubon, maybe some of our viewers are not aware of the organization. What would you tell them? Well, I'd say first it's an organization that has as its mission to protect birds and the places birds need to thrive. And the way that we do that is by engaging people with nature. That's kind of the very shortest version, but I'd like to keep going if we've got a few more floors. No, I love this. So to engage people with nature, I mean, but what about the history? Because I think that's important. Your founded Audubon is named after its founder, who, from what I know, was a great illustrator and oncologist of birds. It's true. And they're very famous photos, not photos, but drawings of birds. And that's where it came out of. And Audubon's been around for a while. It is. It's one of the oldest environmental organizations in the U.S. And it was, it was named after John James Audubon, who was most known for his abilities as an illustrator. More recently, it's become, there's more information known about him than the fact that he owns slaves and was a pretty deep racist has become something we're trying to, as a community, talk about and engage with. What does that mean for us? Well, that's an honest discussion throughout all of American history. I think, you know, and that is a viable discussion. And I'm glad that Audubon has been very aware of that. But again, we all have to deal with our own history. It's true. Welcome to America. Exactly. It's part of history. And as long as we acknowledge and talk about it and learn and become better, that's how America really pulls itself together. Agreed. Definitely. But he wasn't actually the founder. I mean, it was, it was the people who founded it were, it was in the early part of the 20th century. And they were, it was largely women, actually, who were organizing around what was, we were experiencing as a country, which is the dramatic decline in a lot of different species and birds. You may recall from the history books that we and the U.S. in the early part of the 20th century saw the absolute extinction of the passenger penguin. And there were other, many other bird species that were either going extinct, had already gone like the Carolina parakeet or were on the verge of extinction, like the great egret. Wow. And part of that was people were hunting them for food. Part of it was that they were being used for hats, ladies hats. If I'm not mistaken. It's true. It's true. I think what was at the Ebis was particularly affected by female fashion. It's true. And so there was a, this grassroots effort. It's really some of the first grassroots organizing around environmental issues. And it drew a broad spectrum of people from across America who were interests, who saw the decline in birds and really as we had to do something about it. And as a result of that activism, the Migratory Bird Treaty Act was passed by the U.S. Congress and signed into law by President Woodrow Wilson. And it's still on the books today. It's a very important law. It says that you're not allowed to shoot migratory birds. Well, they do have a right to fly home for summer and go off for a fabulous vacation every winter. Well, and part of what happened was there was a recognition too that the birds, and we often think of birds as the Vermont birds, you know, when we get to see the woodthrush or the hermitthrush, our state bird. We think of it as our bird. But in fact, many of these birds migrate far south all the way down to South America. And the people in South America or Central America think of them as their birds as well. And part of what happened was the Migratory Bird Treaty Act was a response to realizing that if one country or one community wiped out all the bird habitat or wiped out all the birds, it wasn't just affecting them. It was affecting a broad swath of the landscape. And that continues today with Audubon's work with the Flyaway Zones. It's true. That's how we organize ourselves. And Audubon, Vermont, is the state office of the National Audubon Society. So can you explain that to our viewers? Because I think that's important, that's an important distinction. There is National Audubon, which you're a vice president of. And then there's Audubon, Vermont, which is a statewide organization which you're the executive director of. Correct. Correct. And for those who are thinking, wow, vice president sounds like a great title. It is a great title. But there's like 50 vice presidents at Audubon. So... Well, congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. But it is fun. I mean, part of what that represents is I get to have, and it's part of the reason I was interested in this gig, it was fun. I got to be involved in working in Vermont on issues I care about with a really amazing group of folks doing education and science and advocacy. But I also get to be part of this national conversation and even global conversation about how do we begin to think about addressing issues like climate change, which are much bigger than Vermont. And I hate to use this metaphor, which I'm sure you've heard more than once. Audubon is the canary in the coal mines, so to speak, as far as conservation is concerned. Birds really are the first animal affected by pollution and by toxic rivers and those types of things. They get affected by the food chain faster than other animals. And so Audubon on some level is sort of that first line of defense, if you will, in conservation. Yeah. No, there's a very famous ecologist named Thomas Lovejoy who sadly passed away just this past winter. But he had a saying that I'm going to completely mangle the quote. But to paraphrase it, it was more or less saying if you take care of the birds, it turns out you take care of just about all the other things that we need in the environment as well. Because birds need clean water. They need clean air. They need these green hills and silver waters of Vermont, just like we do. And they need our forests. All the things that we need as a community, as a species ourselves, the birds need. And if we take care of them and we see thriving bird populations, we're going to see thriving communities. Well, they also, from what I understand, have a very dear friend who's a biologist. And a lot of our biodiversity hinges on birds dropping seeds when they fly around. You know, they change the landscape as forests move north, as things change. It's the birds who are going to help facilitate that change and they're really integral to that. It's true. They also, while woodpeckers are not going to be the solution to the emerald ash borer, it turns out they like to eat that bug. So there are ways in which birds are helping to slow down or impact some of the spread of pests. There's a wonderful writer named Doug Tallamy, who's out of, I think out of Delaware, who's done some really amazing research on how, he's got graduate students that have counted how many grubs and caterpillars, you know, chickadees will eat. They eat an astonishing amount of bugs. So the irony of oftentimes when we over-apply pesticides to kill off the caterpillars, we're killing off the food source and poisoning the birds, which are really in, you know, a renewable way to, you know, a much happier, sustainable way to protect our gardens and crops from bugs. And that's sort of what we're learning too, through the conservation movement, is that there is the cause and effect web of life, where every single piece is part of a strand of a collective hole, which is all interrelated. And it's crucial that they all serve a particular focus with each other. And again, if we really want to get to it, birds are such an integral part of that web. You know, one thing that gives me hope, you know, as much as we all read and see all the terrible news about climate change, which is, of course, discouraging, and the, you know, pollution and the loss of biodiversity, all which are real threats, but there are signs that when we, as a species, step in and identify where we're messing things up, where we disrupt that web of life, that we can fix things. And just last month, the Vermont Agency of Natural Resources took the bald eagle, you know, the symbol of our country off of the endangered and threatened species list in Vermont. When I moved to Vermont in 2005, there was not a single breeding pair of bald eagles in this state. And now we have over 45 breeding pairs of bald eagles, thanks to the work of a lot of... That's a celebration. Isn't it, though? It's amazing. Of course, we have people like, you know, Margaret Fowle, who's one of our conservation biologists, who's been involved in restoring that population. But really, the real credit for that goes to the people like Rachel Carson and folks in the 60s and 70s that were realizing that DDT was bio-cumulating in the food web and killing off all our birds of prey, a lot of different kinds of birds, ospreys and bald eagles and peregrine falcons. You're talking about the book Silent Spring. If none of you have ever read it, it's basically the keystone of the modern environmental movement, and it was integral. I don't think people realize that back at that time, and I can't remember exactly, but I think it was a river in Ohio that literally... No, it was in New York. The river literally went on fire. It started burning, which of course was terrifying to most Americans. It made quite the news story and helped precipitate sort of the environmental movement in the 1970s. It's true. It's true. And it's taken, frankly, this long for the bald eagle to recover, you know, now 40, 50 years later. So what Audubon, Vermont, is trying to do in our work with children, our work with young people, with advocacy, using science is to ask the question, what are we doing today that we could change, that we could do better? So that 50 years from now, we'll begin to see the kinds of healthy biodiversity, healthy ecosystems, kind of healthy forests and waters that we all want to see. And so I guess, all right, so quickly, I'm going to get back into my actual questions. This is way too much fun talking about this. But so let's get back to it. What is the difference between National Audubon and Audubon, Vermont, for our viewers? Well, there's two answers to that. The first answer is there's no difference. We are the same organization. Audubon, Vermont is the state office of the National Audubon Society. The other answer is what we do is we get to work in Vermont. All of the, all of my staff and all of our work is focused on Vermont issues, from Vermont environmental issues. In the context of this broader ecosystem, birds of course don't recognize state boundaries. And so you need policies, you need programs that work across borders. So I work closely with colleagues in Maine and New Hampshire and Massachusetts and New York to make sure that we put together a set of shared policies and practices and programs that make a difference. Each share corridors, I mean I would assume that as birds and animals move around, that talking to other states, even Quebec on some extent, creating shared corridors for wildlife is vitally important. Is that some of the work that Audubon does? It absolutely is what we do. And our scientists are increasingly, it's amazing. We were talking earlier about the technology of cameras and TV studios. The technology has affected biology as well. There are now these tiny little microchips that they can put onto birds that are called, I'm trying to think of the, I'll forget the name, but there's these things called modus towers. And you can put a little microchip on a bird with a little antenna and it will, tiny little birds, and you can track them all the way back and forth, you know, and watch them in real time as they fly down to South America, you know, say in the case of the Baba Link, you know, one of our, one of our birds that's actually challenged by some of the environmental problems we're facing. Is there a way for any of our viewers to participate in these migrations? There are. There actually is, the Cornell Lab of Ornithology has amazing resources. And you can also connect to some of that through the National Audubon Society. So if you're interested in taking a look at some of these flyaways and migration routes, please go to the Cornell website because there will be information there where you can actually track the birds in real time, which is quite exciting, David. It is. It's amazing. We've got Mark Labar on our team is someone who's been really integral in getting more motor stations located throughout Vermont. And we're, our goal is to actually have such a network and we would love particularly to be able to align with some, with schools and colleges so that the students can build all the data collection around birds into their science. And we're learning all sorts of amazing things. You know, for instance, if you, if you discover that there's a little, there's one flyover stop place right on the, because so many of the birds in the Atlantic flyaway fly across the Gulf of Mexico. Wow. And they all stop, you know, when they get to the, you know, somewhere in Louisiana, they all have to, they are like, maybe they catch their breath and they need, they need that space. They need to be open and undeveloped and we're increasingly able to pinpoint those areas that are most critical. And those are usually wetland areas. Is that accurate? Very often wetlands, but birds need more than just one kind of habitat. They need forests. They need fields. They need wetlands. And part of what we're learning too is the ways in which they move across that landscape at different points in their life cycle so that we protect all of those different parts. So there's, there are changes. This is very, there are changes to the migratory pattern based on what part of their life cycle they're in. The, their movement, once there's like, say you, I don't know, I'm going to make this. See, you're way, I'm way over my skis. You shouldn't ask me questions about biology. I play a scientist on television. But you, you, what I'm learning from my expert biologist, you know, Steve Hagenbu, who's our, our forester, we'll talk about that even forest birds, birds like the scarlet tannager that, or the black third of blue warbird. My favorite bird, I should note. It is, it is a glorious bird. You know, at different stages, once it's gotten here, it's gotten to her mind. When, when it turns out Vermont is part of the northern forest, which is one of the most richest, most diverse places for birds on the globe. And so we need to protect our forest for them. But it turns out that they at different cycles may actually want, you know, disturbed land. They may want forest that's been cleared and has grown back and it's more shrubby or they may need access to fields at different points in their life, given what kind of food they need to eat. And that's a program Audubon also works on, I believe is working with people in their forests. I was shocked to find out that cleaning out the forest of dead trees is a terrible idea for birds. I was trying to be very good in my forest management and I found out that those dead trees are integral to bird development. Yeah, ecologists and bird scientists will tell you, mess is good, a messy yard, leave those weeds, don't dead hedge your, your flowers, leave those flower heads up because they provide amazing seeds for and food for birds all winter long. Which is a shock. I think we all do this crazy landscape stuff that actually isn't ecologically good. And I think Vermonters would love to know more about that. And there's a great, if you go to the Audubon Vermont website or the national website, there is a plants for birds page. And you can go there and learn about what are the kinds of plants to plant in Vermont that birds love. And they can also be beautiful. They don't have to be weeds. They can be beautiful plants, but they tend to be native. They do well here and they provide important food sources. Well, I know a few friends of mine and myself included have some fabulous hummingbird flower beds. Exactly. So, and I think if you wanna do something for birds, that's a great way to start is to look at your own backyard. It's really true. So, what is the mission of Audubon? I think we've kind of touched on that. Yeah, it's to protect birds and the places birds need to thrive. That's the one floor of the elevator speech. The deeper part though is when you look at what Audubon, the way that we do that is by connecting people to nature. And I describe often my staff are rolling their eyes if they're watching this now, because I often talk about the three-legged stool of Audubon. We have an education and outreach program. We have a group of expert teacher naturalists who love working with children and young adults and people of all ages to help them learn and be connected to nature. Then we have a science team. We have a conservation team that is a second leg of the stool and they are out working with landowners and with communities, with state and federal agencies to find strategies to do on the ground work, to kind of better protect habitat for birds. And then the third leg is the advocacy. Do working with local governments and state and federal agencies to get them to adopt policies that are good for birds and bird habitat. And so why we're on it? What policy and advocacy is Audubon working on currently? Well, what I was down yesterday at the state house talking to folks about were two things that I think are really fascinating new opportunities. One is forest protection. There's, as anyone who's lived in Vermont for more than a minute knows, one of Vermont's greatest assets is its forests. And everybody has a different reason they may think that. Some people love the forest because they just love to look at it. Some people love it because they appreciate all the biodiversity, all this wildlife and animals and birds that depend on it. Some of us love it because we make our living out of harvesting timber and others by having people come ski through it. You know, there's all sorts of reason why our forests are important in Vermont. And they're really important to birds. So part of what I was advocating for is changes to the law to our Act 250 land use law that would give greater protections to large blocks of forests. To a law that has recently been moving forward that would affect what is called the current use program. It's a property tax relief program for people that manage their land. Oh yeah, so for people who aren't aware of the land use, if you have a certain amount of acreage, you pay less in property taxes. So the idea is that you're helped with tax relief for having large blocks of property that's being utilized, A, for the landscape or for some sort of commercial or economically viable resource. And the idea is that we're creating bigger blocks of woodland. And again, I assume that helps with your flyaways and your corridors. Yeah, on the flyway level, turns out Vermont is part of the Northern Woods. It's a really critical part of the landscape, the international global landscape for birds. But yeah, here in Vermont, the current use, what they call the current use law is actually a big part of the reason we have this amazing forested landscape because the alternative is that the taxes are so high, people end up needing to sell for development. And probably the greatest threat to the landscape in Vermont is that sprawl development, that kind of suburban. The patchwork, we call it the 10-acreization of Vermont, if you will. And then you have all these little subdivisions where there's no contextual consistency to the landscape. Yeah, no, exactly. Wildlife need quarters. They need large blocks of land that are open and are really... Well, a bear, a fox, a bird. Doesn't necessarily know property boundaries. And it certainly doesn't follow no trespass signs. It's true. And I should, I'll use that as an opportunity to remind people that the bears are coming out early this year. So if you have had your bird feeders out, now's a good time to take them back in. Or the suet. I can attest to a bear coming onto my deck to attack a suet feeder around this time of year. So be aware. So I do wanna quickly talk, though. One of the things that's near and dear to my heart is in Huntington, outside of Burlington is the Audubon Nature Center. Yes. Which is a lovely space with walking trails and hiking trails and swimming in the summer and all sorts of lovely things. And I believe you just did some work on one of your buildings there. We did, we did. For anyone who's been to Huntington or to the Green Mountain Audubon Center, you'll have fond memories of the education barn. And it's been loved to death. And a couple of years ago, we were lucky to get some really important support from a variety of donors. And they came forward and allowed us to basically renovate the barn. And when we asked the contractors, we said, what does this barn need? They said, well, it needs new walls and a new roof and a new floor. It needs a new everything. Do everything. So I hope people will get out to see it. It's a beautiful spot. And the barn is really transformed. It's become a great meeting space for the community and a great spot for teaching and all of that. Oh, that's lovely. Now that we're talking about the center, I think it's really important for us to talk about all the programs that are at the center. And especially speaking to the Burlington audience and the Chinden County audience, there's a lot of incredible programs happening through Audubon, Vermont, right here in your own backyard. Would you like to talk about them, David? Yeah, well, there's one coming up just around the corner. Anyone who's paying attention in Vermont knows it's now sugaring season. And the sap has started flowing and we have a sugar bush at Audubon, Vermont. And we harvest the sap the old fashioned way with buckets and with the help of a lot of volunteers and the hard work of the staff, we collect the sap and we boil it and we make syrup. And on March 26th and March 27th, we're gonna have a party to celebrate all that syrup. We'll have sugar on snow for children. It's very family friendly and we're grateful for the sponsorship of Main Street Landing, of which you know. And Kestrel coffee and Champlain chocolates and so lots of sweet, wonderful caffeinated and maple-y kinds of things to eat and lots of activities. It's just a wonderful way to get out. It's a great event for children. There are walks. There is a golden sap tap that children can find. Tons of activities walking around. I will tell you it is one of the better events you can go to in the spring in Vermont. So please put that on your calendars. It's true. And then we'll have other events. We have specialized events for women who are interested in burning together as a cohort. We have Pride Hikes in collaboration with Pride Vermont. All of this is on our events page. We have Forest Bathing. Which if you don't know what that is, check that out. So if you do please, as you can see at the bottom of the screen, I do have a, there is a URL to Ottoman Vermont. So please check it out. They're constantly having wonderful events. Things are actually starting to pop up now that the pandemic is slowly but surely coming over. Most of them are outside. So they are pandemic friendly. And please check it out. And if you do get a chance and you feel strongly about birds and you feel strongly about our woodlands and you feel strongly about the cornerstone of good old ecological conservation, then feel free to go onto the website and make a donation to Audubon Vermont. They really are on the forefront of taking care of our woodlands and our natural spaces and taking care of the wildlife of this state that we love so much. David, it's been such a pleasure to have you here today. Thank you so much for coming in and thank you so much to you and everybody including your staff at Audubon Vermont for all the lovely and wonderful work you do for the state. Thanks so much, Mariah. And thank you all for being here. It's been a pleasure and I'll see you next month. Thank you very much. Take care.