 I'm here with Rob Hardy and we met on Twitter and it's been like, I was saying earlier, brothers from a different mother. We are both, Rob and I are both interested in how to do marketing from a more, you know, like real authentic ethical, you know, heart centered place. And Rob, well, first of all, welcome. Good to have you here. Great to finally meet you. This is the first time Rob and I are actually talking face to face, but we've traded tweets and emails and things like that. Rob, anything else you wanna say about your background before we get into this? Oh man, there's a lot there other than to say, like the broad character arc of my journey thus far has been going from total, I'd say direct response marketer, like I got really in the weeds on copywriting and funnels and conversions and all of it. And over the last year or two, mostly through doing work on myself and working with a coach and all sorts of stuff, I've kind of realized that I hate all of that and I don't wanna spend the rest of my life doing it. And so it's been interesting just sort of like reinventing my relationship with marketing after being so deep in the weeds in the old way in the coercive, manipulative way for years. Totally, totally. Yeah, man, so it's great to meet you and grateful to our common Twitter contact, Gil Friend, who I know from the green sustainable business days. I was involved in that niche, well, niche. I mean, I went to gotten MBA in green sustainable business years ago and we met each other. Anyway, what we're here to talk about though, you and me is I am in the process of choosing software to migrate my website, migrate my website, email list and then my courses into and my affiliate system as well. So I have like at least four good choices. I'm looking at Kajabi, which is the industry standard. Most people have heard of Kajabi, K-A-J-A-B-I. I'm also looking at Simplero, which I'm really enjoying. I, the founder, it's Simplero, what's amazing about it is that it's owned by one person. It was founded and still owned by just one person. So instead of like, it's a benevolent dictatorship, I guess, and the guy is relatively approachable like I was, I've been in touch with him and he's been, I like the fact that he even invited me to be part of the, I guess the advisor team or something. And I said, I would be honored and grateful if I did choose Simplero to be. So it's like, I liked how approachable and just how human the, not just him, but the customer service. And then I'm also considering Zendler because new Zendler because that's what some of my clients have recommended. And then Podia, P-O-D-I-A is an kind of an up and coming one that several of my clients said, hey, should look at this one. So it's like, but so, you know, what I'm probably gonna do, I mentioned earlier is to set up a short course on each of these four and a simple website so that I can experience from the inside what it's like. But you have been looking at software, I mean, you've been choosing software for a long time and you mentioned that you had some ways of deciding or thinking about how to choose software. And I wanted you to share that and we can have this conversation. Oh man, there's so many directions I could go here, but one of them I'll say is that a lot of my obsession with software over the years has been an elaborate coping and procrastination mechanism to sort of like leads me away from the actual work of shipping things, making offers, being vulnerable, testing and all of that. And that was sort of the game I played through a lot of like 2017 and 18 in my business is like I, yeah, it was a way for me just to sort of like jump around and feel like I was being productive and being like, yo, I'm upgrading my business systems and I'm gonna have the best tools and this is gonna be great. When in fact, I was just running away from the things that mattered. And my business wasn't actually, it wasn't complex enough to need a lot of the tools that I was thinking about. And I didn't need complex automation and segmentation and like all of that. Yeah, yeah, you know, this is so true for a lot of people who are doing work that, I say it's like purpose worker, like the work that feels very meaningful to them. I say whenever we encounter purposeful, you know, when we're working on a purpose project, it's easy to run away because there's the fear of failure and it sounds productive to be studying whether it's business systems or productivity tools. I spent a long time jumping around productivity tool because I thought, you know, that that was, that there was gonna be a perfect tool. And I found out, oh my God, all of them have flaws and all of them have benefits. But so go ahead, you looked at all these different things and you've course learned about how to think about that. Yeah. Well, so I think the first heuristic that I like to think about is like, there is a clear division between like all-in-one tools. So you've got like Kachabi and Simplero and the one I nearly migrated to is called Kartra. Yes, right, that's another one. That would be a fifth one. Yeah, yeah. So that's what you're on now? No, no, no. So I actually, I went into Kartra for maybe like three or four months and it was right after they launched. So it wasn't, I don't know, I think this was 2018. So they weren't like fully baked yet. They still had a lot of the pieces there. But the thing that I kept running into is that every individual piece or module of it was mediocre in some way. Like I used and loved ConvertKit for years and like it's my, like ConvertKit is just my jam. Then I go into Kartra and it does a lot of the same things but it doesn't have the ease, the intuitive use that the, yeah, it just didn't, I don't know. It was clunky. Yeah, well, super clunky. And like, it sounds like a silly heuristic but like to Marie Kondo things is like it didn't spark any joy. Like I just hated being in there and it was- Of course. Yeah. Of course. And it was the same, yeah, it's the same with like the landing page builder. It was just really clunky, unintuitive. All the templates were kind of dumb looking and like, and like another aspect of it is Kartra, they go really hard into the direct response stuff. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That's because the founders, right? Or like the founding team was kind of came out of that world. Yeah. And like that's the thing is like, it was even like the way they marketed that platform was even too aggressive for me in the early days. Now, before we go further, like you said, you've said that direct response twice now. And I think, I understand that, but some of the folks who are listening or watching might not get it. What's your definition of it? How do you describe that? Yeah. I think I would say the central conceit of direct response is about conversion. It's about measuring the crap out of everything. Yes. And like on the exterior, it looks like, you know, a lot of the really hyperbolic copy, like super long form sales pages and countdown timers and funnels and upsell sequences and things that are, I don't know. It's about driving as much short-term revenue as possible is what it comes down to is how can we go from first interaction to as much revenue as possible as quickly as possible is the goal of direct response marketing. Direct response from even a stranger who has just glanced at your website, they should spend as much as possible as soon as possible. So, okay, you found a cartridge at those early years. Now I'm sure it's upgraded quite a bit since then to be clunky. And it had that direct response ethic which, you know, neither of us enjoy. Okay. Yeah. So I was working with a client at the same time because I was actually doing their copywriting and they built their whole business in Kajabi. So through 2018 and 19, I was in there constantly building out sales pages. So you have a lot of experience with Kajabi as well. Yeah. And again, like I think the same thing applies as like Kajabi in 2022 is probably different from Kajabi in 2019. Yeah. Well, my experience was the same. It was like there's a lot here but it's all really deeply mediocre and half-baked. And ultimately what I came down to for my business is I wanna enjoy the tools that I use. And for me at the time, you know, it was like ConvertKit. I had a Squarespace site, which I don't use anymore. I was built like landing pages and stuff in lead pages, which was pretty good. And then, you know, like a couple other things. Like I process payments and build carts and funnels in an app called Thrive Cart. Thrive Cart is actually, it's been mentioned by some of my people too. And anyway, yeah. Yeah. And I, so that was the philosophy I came down on is like I don't necessarily mind spending a bit more money. Right. As long as I'm like enjoying the tools that I use and they create the kind of experience that I want both for myself and my customers and the people who interact with me. So that's one of those heuristics is like, there are trade-offs you make in that. Cause then, like it then becomes a pain in the ass to tie things together with Zapier. Yes. And like it is. And by the way, you're one of few people who actually says that correctly. Most people say like Zapier. Zapier is usually one of those. And of course I learned from them, they try to educate everyone by Zapier like Happier. You know, it's like, oh, that's right. And then each thing is called, each automation is called a zap, not a zap. So yes, Zapier. That's the direction I've gone for all these years is I had the same thought you had, which is the all-in-one systems suck because they basically try to check all the boxes and they do it poorly. So why not use the best of everything and just stitch it together with Zapier. But so obviously I've gratefully grown a good business doing that except my course delivery system has been mediocre at least. I know it hasn't been great cause I basically put my course videos on YouTube unlisted. I put it in the playlist, unlisted playlist. And then I, when people sign up for my course landing page, webpage doesn't matter just a webpage with a PayPal button. They buy it, Zapier says, hey, there's a new sale. I have programmed this. Oh, if this sale says this course then please put them into this MailChimp tag and MailChimp, I have an automation with a MailChimp. This is, okay, send them these access links. And the access links brings them to a YouTube playlist and a Google doc with resource links, a resource, you know, written resource. And people go, George, course content's great. It's just, I wish I could find all your courses in one place. Yeah. Over, I mean, I've heard that same feedback for years. And now that I'm running, essentially I'm running a year long course right now the longest course I've ever run. And those people are like, and the course ironically is about productivity and simplification and things. And those people are like, George, it's getting overwhelming. I mean, we're like two months into it and I've got module after, oh my God, this is a one year course. They're already saying it's too much and month two, it's gonna be insane as I keep going. So I'm like, I have to, for the sake of these students I have to move it on to a step-by-step platform which is why I'm now looking at course platforms and looking at course platforms, like if I'm gonna look at course platforms maybe I should now just go with an all in one because I'm sick of my website because my website's Weebly and they sold out to Square like three or four years ago and they stopped development cold. There's not been a single new feature for the website in three, four, maybe five years actually. And it's so disappointing. And so, and then number two, Mailchimp sold out to Intuit a year ago or so but Mailchimp has stopped development at least for a year. I mean, I felt like it to me. I was with Mailchimp in the early days and it was really exciting. They were coming up in the midst of all the time. And then they like graduated over the years. Now it's like, now it's buggy. Even the spell check, it doesn't work anymore. I mean, this is insane. I'm trying to send an email, I click spell check and it's broken and they think it's okay. And they think that, I mean, I can't believe they allow that. But anyway, go ahead. Don't even get me started on Mailchimp, man. It's one of those pieces of software that I've had to use and work through because like I was setting up email systems for clients for years and it just, and I don't know, I think ConvertKit has spoiled me in a lot of ways is because it is just far simpler to do the basics and it's also far simpler to get in and build a sequence and tag and segment and automate and all these things. Whereas even just sending a broadcast email in Mailchimp, you have to click through like 12 different screens and like it's a wild piece of stuff. Anyhow. Yeah, I'm not sure where I was going with that. So the heuristics, I mean, the first one was about the all-in-one. Okay, so what are your continuing thoughts on this? Yeah, yeah. So are you saying that we should not go with all-in-one? I would investigate it. Well, so the other heuristic is I tend to, like I just want to do business with people and companies that I vibe with at this point. Like so when you were talking about the Simplero guy owning all of his business and having good customer service, inviting you in, like it might not be the best tool of the bunch because I don't know, Kajabi has raised a ton of money and like so have a lot of these companies. But I'm at a point where I would rather vote with my dollars and put it towards companies that share my values. And I don't know, that's partly why I'm with Mighty Networks, even though Mighty Networks has raised a bunch of money. I get a good deal from Mighty Networks too. Like from the early days. I mean, in fact, in the early days of Mighty Networks, I was in touch with the founder as well. I could have been on some advisory team or something like that. I just, I probably should have gone in that direction because they were really, I was still into my Facebook group stuff, which I still use. But yeah, this is why this second heuristic is really good. I took, there's no reason. There's no wonder where kindred spirits, I mean, because you and I are, yeah, because this is why I'm like, if I were to choose today, I would totally go with Simplaro because of how accessible the founder is for me and how I've asked him point blank, hey, are you gonna sell? And he's like, nope, not gonna sell because I've seen what happens with software when they sell. I care about the product, I care about the mission. So I'm not selling. So I'm like, dude, you write on. And then I'm afraid of Kajabi because they are on that path where I could see that they could sell in the not too distant future. Like that was my dog making an agreement. He's somewhere, yeah. I've got a cat back there. He's probably just snoozing. So that, like honestly though, like I'm like, I think ultimately it comes down to trade-offs and all of these things is like understanding which trade-offs you're willing to make and then just accepting it because you mentioned it earlier, like no matter what platform you choose, no matter what bundle of solutions, there will always be things that are irritating and nitpicky and it don't work the way you expect them to. There will always be things where you have to create silly, obnoxious workarounds. And like that's how it is for mighty networks right now for me is like they're, like you've gone into my membership. Like it, like I- I would say I bought into your membership because I like what you're up to and I was pleasantly surprised that you were using mighty networks and your course delivery is really nice. I really like it. That's, yeah, no, I bought it. I got it, I'm like, I like this. Now I'm like, the only reason I'm not considering mighty networks is because it's not an all in one. Because I need to move email lists and website. So I'm like, if I'm gonna move those two, what am I gonna do? Go to WordPress, I could, but I would like it to be on one system if possible because I'm trying to model in a way where I could recommend this to clients too. And wouldn't it be nice if it was all one system? But anyway, so how, you've enjoyed mighty networks. Yeah. Well, so I'll just, I'll just share like my current tech stack for everything. Sure, sure. My website and the front end of everything I do now is Ghost. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. I was looking at Ghost a couple of years ago, like last year actually. So I didn't go with it because it felt too techy for me. Uh-oh, my microphone is cutting out. Can you hear me? I can, I know, it's fine. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that was really weird. So you use Ghost and you like it? I love it. I have a freelance developer who, I don't know, he charges me like 35 bucks an hour to go in and like tweak some code when I want changes. But the reason I love Ghost is that it, there's enough power there that, you know, it ties into Zapier. It's got like web hooks and an open API. Nice. It's independently owned. It's open source. Yes, yes. A lot of the good features of WordPress when WordPress wasn't bloated and hacked all the time. And it's beautiful. It sparks so much freaking joy for me. That's the ethic of it. And that's the thing is like, I'm at a point where I want to do business with companies I like, with tools that I enjoy using. They're also, because like, I spent a year trying, maybe not a year, I think maybe like eight months trying to build my site on Webflow. Which? What's Webflow? Webflow is basically like if you took Photoshop and turned it into a web design tool. Like it is, it gives you unlimited control and customization options over every last little pixel. So it's really meant for designers. Is it by Adobe or who's it by? Who's it? No, it's, I think Webflow is its own company. It's worth checking out for anybody who wants like to meticulously control things. But the thing that I found was one like the CMS, the content management side of it sucks. Like it just is tedious and unenjoyable and very flunky. Ghost you're liking. That's CMS. Ghost I love. And the other thing is, is when I have unlimited options for tweaking and customizing and pixel peeping and whatever, there's a part of my brain that we'll just go do that. That we'll want to make little changes to my website instead of focusing on content. Whereas, whereas Ghost is that perfect middle ground between customizability and simplicity where it gives me constraints. Like really all I can do in Ghost is go in and create new posts and pages. So I love that. I love smart constraints that allow us to well, express our purpose without getting mired in the, oh my God, there's these 10 options I haven't used and what maybe I should, it's that guilt that the feature guilt. So would you recommend Ghost to people? So like I said, I looked at Ghost. The reason I go in as I started taking the first step and I'm like, oh no, this is too tech savvy. There's just too techy for me and probably my clients. But how do you, I mean, if you sound like you're techy enough to do it, but how do you manage that? Like you said, you have a tech person. Yeah, well, I have a tech person. I think the tool has improved by leaps and bounds in terms of customization options that are like built in that anybody can do. I think I looked at it maybe one to two years ago. I forget now, but it was a little while ago. Well, so it's worth another look now. And it's also like, there's also just like the theme or like the marketplace of themes has sort of exploded. So you can build like a really beautiful site and most of them have their own little customization options. And like if you want to do deeper customizations, you'll need to get into code and there's a bunch of developers. Ghost versus WordPress. What would you say there? What's your base? Oh, ghost all day, every day. Well, ghost like for writing. Yeah. Well, for one, it's just a way more delightful place to spend one's time. So, very good. Very important. WordPress fills me with existential dread. Yeah. I worry every time that I go to- This is why I haven't gone into WordPress because I've looked at, of course I've looked at it many times over the years. My clients, many of my clients are on WordPress. Of course I'm in there sometimes. I'm like, what the hell? I can't believe people, I can't believe this is the industry standard. Mm-hmm. And it, and that's the thing is like, it is a very robust ecosystem. You can do things with WordPress plugins and through combining them in different ways that, like, I don't know, it again comes to trade-offs, but ghost is more than enough for me. Okay. So we text that ghost and then what's your, and then convert kit. Yeah, convert kit is, yeah, it's interesting, because ghost also sends emails. Like, I use it to send just like the full version of new articles that I publish. Right, right. But then I use Zapier to take everybody into convert kit as well. Okay. So that I have, so that it's really easy for me to send to like just paid members. Why do you use convert kit and not just the ghost email system? Well, for one there's no automation in the ghost email system. So if I, like, and I actually don't have that many sequences right now. Yeah, I understand, me neither. Yeah, but I don't know, like I do plan to do more sequences later, like we can talk about. Could you make it automated with Zapier and ghost? I don't know. Sequences. Maybe. Probably. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I have to look at the Zaps available for ghost, but you're getting me thinking, my goodness, you're really getting me thinking about ghost again. So, all right. Second, very important question. Could you deliver courses in ghost? Yeah, probably. I mean, so the ghost has built-in membership features. Okay, so there we go. All right, this is good. Yeah. So built-in membership features. Yeah. I don't think you like natively with ghost, you could sell one-off courses. I think it would either be, it would be like an all or nothing kind of option or I don't know, like there's, there are tiers in ghost now, but it's more meant for like membership publications. Sure. Okay, fine. Yeah. But if you wanted, you could share, and it's not even Jerry Rigg, you could just like set up a page for course. Unlisted page. Yeah. And put it behind the membership paywall and then embed the videos on there and boom. Yeah, but the problem is, let's say Mary is a student and she has bought course A and C, but not B. Yeah, ghost is not an ideal solution for that. Right. Yeah. And Mary wants to log in and say, where are my George Cal courses all in one place? I want to see, I want to log into georgecal.com, whatever, and just see course A and C because I bought those, but obviously I know I don't have access to course B. That's the single problem. That's why course where exists, I guess it's one of the reasons. Yeah. Well, I mean, that brings me to what, I mean, it brings me to Mighty Networks, which has sort of become the entire back end of my business where, yeah, and this for me is the area where I actually think the all in one thing, because it's not all in one, but it is a really, really capable course platform. Like I actually think it's better than Podia. It's better than Teachable. It's more intuitive than, and it's also like, but it's also, it's a community platform. Yes. So my thinking here, because I've tried doing like, trying the best, like to just get the best platform in both of these categories, the best course platform, the best community platform, and then tie them together. But I think for one that causes friction, like people actually have to jump back and forth and they have to have separate logins and all of this. Exactly. But I actually think there's some real magic to housing these two things in the same place, because the courses themselves, they become more social. It's easy for people to leave comments under the lessons. It's easy for people to shoot messages, like support messages to me straight from the lesson. And that social side makes the course itself more interesting and valuable. It makes it easier for students to interact with each other and me. How would you, give me one second here. All right, so how would you compare Mighty Network's course delivery versus Kajabi? I mean, I think Kajabi's more flexible, especially in terms of design, and in terms of, I don't know. It's really hard to say. I think Kajabi's probably a superior course platform, because that's really what they started as, like that was their bread and butter like six, seven years ago. Well, of course, I mean, we have to say, well, what aspects are superior? Because when I started going through your course materials in your Mighty Network membership, which by the way, folks, I'll link it below because I think it's worth looking at and you all might wanna join me in Rob's membership. It was a great, I actually liked your membership or course experience more than the Kajabi courses I've taken. I haven't taken that many. So there may be others who have designed it better because that's what Kajabi's more flexible in that way. Okay, so let me ask you this then. The fact that you're using ConvertKit separate from Mighty Networks, has that been a problem in terms of CRM, like tracking people and their engagement with you? I have, I think I've largely given up on the notion of trying to track people. Like if I do have a single source of truth, it's ConvertKit because Mighty Networks is synced to it and goes to sync to it. How is Mighty Networks synced to it? Broadly speaking, it's just, and actually, I don't know that it's Mighty Networks is necessarily synced to it, but I know who's in what course. So it's more that my checkouts is synced to it. Okay, yeah, who's in what course? Yep, that's essential. So it basically just gives me an overview of how many active members do I have, how many lifetime, how many people have churned, how many people are in this course or this course or this course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, but beyond that, like there's so much, like for a lot, a lot of years, I got deep into the weeds on segmentation and automation and trying to, like, I don't know if you follow Brennan Dunn at all. I've heard of him, but no, not much. He's just like a wizard magician of email. It's just like the most magical person I've seen in terms of this stuff, but it's so complex and so deeply nerdy and technical to make his magic happen that I've realized that I don't want to play those games. I don't want to have to learn how to write complex liquid code and build out the, like, I just, so at this point, I kind of just use ConvertKit very, very simply. Have you heard of Mailer Lite? Oh yeah, you have used it. Okay, it's good. Oh, you have? Okay, how do you compare those two? Because some of my clients are really liking Mailer Lite. Of course, some love ConvertKit as well. And then there's active campaign. I mean, God, there's so many choices, too many choices. But how would you compare Mailer Lite? I mean, I think ConvertKit is more powerful if you really care about the power user features. Yeah. But for the basics, like Mailer Lite does the same things and it's cheaper. Yeah, yeah. And the reason I'm still with ConvertKit, which I think I've been on ConvertKit since 2016, is that I love the company and I love the founders. They're so creator focused where, you know, like active campaign is, I don't know what they are. Drip went into like whole, into like e-commerce, CRM stuff. That's the problem with MailChimp. They went in that direction where it's like, they don't care about the email newsletter that they started with as much anymore. So, okay, so this is really good to hear that you have a good feeling about the ConvertKit founders that they're dedicated to the mission of this. Okay. And interestingly, ConvertKit's becoming a bit more all-in-one. Like they released some commerce, not all-in-one, all-in-one, but you can use it to sell natively, build landing pages. Oh my gosh. They have, and then obviously everything on the back end, you can use it for a paid newsletter now. Right, wow. Okay. So, yeah, I don't use 80% of what ConvertKit does at this point, but I love the company and will probably stay forever. Okay, that's, any other tech stack you wanted to mention? I mean, there's Thrivecart. You still use it? I do. Is that your shopping cart? Yeah, it's my shopping cart. And you've seen my checkout pages. They're kind of goofy. Yeah. They usually, like for my membership, I have it set up so that you can, right now, it's $50, $100, $200, $500. Any of those options gets you the exact same benefits, right? It's a choose a price that feels good, it feels fair, that feels, and like that's one of those things that you can't really do natively in in Mighty Networks, in ConvertKit, in any, in Ghost. But if it was just one price, you could do that within, if it was just one price, which of those platforms would you do this, do your shopping cart in Ghost, Mighty Networks or ConvertKit? I would probably still use Thrivecart because I like to get really, I would like to get really, I don't know, just like cheeky and fun with my cart copy and things like that. And so I can like customize the design and the copy and all of that. And also Thrivecart is still a lifetime deal. Like, I think you pay like six or 700 bucks and you get the tool for life. And I think I bought it initially in 2017. And they continuously upgrade it and add new features. And speaking of the lifetime versus subscription, Mighty Network, Ghost is also a really good deal, right? Is it Ghost Lifetime or what is it? No, Ghost is actually kind of, so, and that's the thing, like Ghost is kind of pricey for the official version where they take care of hosting and email and everything for you. Yeah, do you recommend that? I don't. And this is a whole other conversation. Because you can also, since it's open source, you can like go set up your own hosting on like digital ocean and then it gets complicated. And I did that at first and I ran into a bunch of tech issues and like my site went offline. Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of, yeah. I went to Ghost, Ghost Pro, the official version, which is good, but their pricing basically disincentivized me from ever importing like my old email list into it. Cause I had like a 6,000 person email list that I wanted to import, but it would have taken my cost from, I don't know, like 400 bucks a year to 1700 just from that one import. Wow. Okay. And it was just like one of those Nodoc, I don't wanna do that thing. So right now I use a, it's like a third, I don't know, if you're familiar with the WordPress ecosystem, like there's managed hosting. Right, Bluehost or... Yeah, like premium version. I use a site called, or a service called Midnight. I think it's getmidnight.com or .co or something like that. Branding with Ghost. Yeah. Well, and it's like that perfect halfway. They take care of hosting and email and security and updating Ghost and like uptime monitoring and like all these technical things. Yeah. And it's priced like kind of halfway in between doing it yourself and Ghost Pro. And then there's no limit on things like members and whatever. So it's, it ends up being substantially cheaper for me. And also, I think it's a little bit faster and more flexible and I can invite teammates and have all these other things that Ghost Pro's official pricing was. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just, it felt restrictive to me. Right. Okay. So of course we could talk about this stuff all day and forever. I would like to wrap it up and just say thank you for kind of introducing yet more options for me to consider. I worry that I just left you with more questions than answers. No, no, no, no. But it's okay because I, yeah. I've given myself the whole year to make this decision. We're in March, early March right now. So I am, yeah, I'm gonna take my time with it. I'm hoping, I'm optimistic that when I launch, we launch my group programs for the coming year, it'll be on the new platform but I will be exploring for the next, you know, at least six plus six to nine months. So it's okay. I'm gonna try out all the ones that are highly recommended for my people and including you. So yeah, I'm gonna look into Mighty Networks again and I'll look at Ghost again, which means I'll consider the not all in one again because I have that as my core instinct as well. It's just that I'm thinking my decision is complicated by thinking about my clients and what would be most recommendable for them. So let me ask you this, like if you were to recommend, and we can end on this question, if you were to recommend a either a tech stack or a single solution to somebody who is a, well, just like a solopreneur, those doesn't have a team, you know, maybe open the hiring just like you said, a $35 an hour tech person every now and then, not like daily but monthly or maybe once a week an hour a week or something like that. Someone who is less tech savvy than you, what would you recommend? So my brain goes in different directions but I think if somebody's primary thing is writing and they wanna put some of their writing behind a paywall, like Ghost is the best thing around. Okay, cool. Just hands down. And would you recommend Ghost Pro? Probably. For somebody just starting out, like I think it's probably the best bet. My circumstances were unique, that's why I went elsewhere. But yeah, Ghost Pro is great. For somebody who's doing courses, it's hard to say. I would probably recommend Podia. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Podia is really fairly simple, fairly friendly, fairly robust. There are a lot of things that make it not the right solution for me, but I generally like their vibe. I like their info. Me too. The tool is good enough for, especially somebody who's beginner and not super tech savvy. Beyond that. Yeah, I'm not entirely sure. That's cool. That's good to know. And but you haven't looked at Simplero or Zendler, right? Yeah, I haven't even heard of Zendler. Yeah, exactly. It's like a particular niche of people that are using it. And Simplero is also a particular other niche of people, a lot of coaches and anyway. So I thank you. Thank you for really, for spending the time with me and hopefully this helped for everybody. I will of course have links to Rob's membership, like I recommend it because I'm in it myself below and Rob's website and Twitter where we met. And yeah, so if anybody has any questions, comment below. Rob and I can't be answering detailed questions here, probably, but if you have any quick questions, brief ones, I'll try to help or if there's anything I'll tag, I'll bring Rob in on the two. So. Come find me on Twitter is where I spend an ungodly amount of time. It's a little bit of a problem, but. You're super friendly on Twitter. It's awesome. Really, really great. Rob, again, thank you so glad to meet you. We're going to be friends for life. And yeah, for sure. And so yeah, we're going to have another conversation actually soon to talk about your thoughts on marketing and other things you want to share. Oh my goodness. God help us. Thanks so much, Rob. Yeah, my pleasure, man. It's great to meet you.