 And I'm the Executive Editor of DataVersity. We would like to thank you for joining this month's installment of the Monthly DataVersity Webinar Series, the Chief Data Officer, moderated each month by Tony Shaw. This month Tony will be joined by three esteemed panelists to discuss the role of the Chief Data Officer. Just a couple of points to get us started. Due to the large number of people that attend these sessions, he will be muted during the webinar. For questions, we will be collecting them via the Q&A in the bottom right-hand corner of your screen. Or if you'd like to tweet, we encourage you to share our slides or questions via Twitter using hashtag DataVersity. As always, we will send a follow-up email within two business days containing links to the slides, the recording of this session, and additional information requested throughout the webinar. This is my pleasure to introduce to you and turn over the webinar to the DataVersity founder and CEO Tony Shaw. Tony, hello and welcome. Thank you for joining us for our discussion today. We'll begin with a agenda, and we're tracking where we're going in the future, looking at topics related to data and information management that are rising higher on the primal list of most organizations. Some of our previous conversations have been about metrics for information management, and the right structure and organization to compete with data. Today's conversation is about the emergence of the Chief Data Officer role, which is going to be a little bit solely contentious, at least if you're to pay attention to the discussions that it is in forums linked in. And maybe we'll see some of that during our chat topics today as well. I'll take a moment and just a moment. To take a higher level view, we have two executives who have the CDO job title specifically. This one spends much of his consulting life advising Chief Data Officer's or else helping company the requirements of the CDO role that's planning to hire. For those of you who may be coming to this topic recently, I think it's probably quite a bit by that both CDOs are from the financial services industry, and both of those services has been applying here and hiring people into the CDO role. So, one of the most large financial services today do have the CDO role in place. There's probably a bit of say, too, that that's a bit of a find in the financial services industry than most others. But there are other sectors like healthcare, government, internet services, and even in internet startups, which are going to embrace the CDO role so that it's not possible if we have this conversation in another issue, then it'll be quite a different one. If you're in a different industry, I just want you to be aware that there might be some bias towards financial experience in the discussion today. We are going to introduce our three panelists. First one is the Chief Data Officer of Keybank. It has been here for the past almost two years. She's been in Keybank for 15 years and is based in Cleveland. She also has an Ohio connection, but she fought with Texas as the CDO of TD Ameritrade. She's also been in that role for the past two years, and prior to taking it on, she was primarily a consultant in the area of information and data management, leading up to his appointment. John Lee is the outlier in this case, as John is, but he's the CEO of the consultant firm Q, John Lee St. Louis Museum. He's a terrific author on topics such as data governance and enterprise information management, and was also an analyst at the Meta Group in a previous life. So, this is our Crangle of Expertise today. I'm inviting them to comment in just a moment. But before we do, let's just get a couple of data points real quickly. Could you please bring up our first poll? Let's give everybody a minute to put on what your organization currently has as a CDO. So, yes, it's a role that's called CDO. Yes, we give it a name. We'll give you a pointing one shortly, but no, there are no plans at all to a point one. So, we'll give you that one to answer if you don't have one, but has it a guess, anyway, if you would. So, questions here. If you think it should be something else, you'll just have to make do with the five that we've got. We've got an administrative officer, chief operating officer, chief financial officer, and chief, and tell me, can we turn around the results on those pretty quickly, or do you need something in the background there? This is the second poll. We're just closing now. So, we'll have the results for that in just a moment, and the results are already up for the first poll. Where do we see those, please? It. Give me a second while this one closes. So, that's the first poll, the results of the first poll. Yeah, 37% said no CDO and no plans. 13% said yes, and the role is called CDO. 8% said yes, we have a top executive, and 9% said no, but we are planning to add one. So many folks are here today, but with no plans too. I guess maybe they're doing some research on whether that's something they should do. Can we move to the results for the second poll? Absolutely. The results for the second one. So, the results are 26% said the CEO, 24% said the COO, 16% said CIO, 5% said CFO, and 3% said CTO. Okay. Anything that results on my screen, is there anything you can do for that? Well, we'll move to the time being. Maybe there's just a delay in the, we'll get into the whole part of our discussion. Welcome to my panelists. Welcome. Okay, have you with us today? I'm going to start with... The role we created at the time when I took the role in September 2012, and it was the clinician of a series of events that had taken place. We had a number of projects that were all in-flight, had a number of dependencies upon each other, especially related to data. And when one of the projects went off the rails, the rest of the projects went off the rails. And there was a strong acknowledgement that if we didn't think about data in an enterprise way, we would be building things from each of our line of business perspectives. So if we built something to satisfy the risk regulatory side, we would have built something to meet our B2B businesses, as well as the B2C side. So the combination of that said, let's step back and think about how we're going to manage data from an enterprise perspective. And so we started on a little bit of a journey of exploring about what does that mean? What does it mean from either like a project and program perspective? And then what would you need to sustain that work on an ongoing basis? And that's where we landed on building enterprise data infrastructure, and as a partner to that, needing to have a sustainability office to go with it, both from a technology perspective as well as from the business side, you can take governance, management, and all the pieces that go with that. And then we decided on in the spring, actually March, April of 2012, when they decided to create the role of a Jada Officer and then we filled it obviously with BELF in September of that year. So... How does it compare with your experience, Derek? So it was roughly the same timing that T.D. was thinking of eventually getting a person that could head up the data strategy for the company. The reason they had to go to that point was and I was at that stage consulting to T.D. trade, the essential reason that they'd reached that conclusion was that to get the company to continue to grow, to be prepared for change, and even know what areas to grow in, they realized that they were going to need to really get a strong handle on data analytics. And from the word go it was seen as being sort of a complete end-to-end vision, a complete life cycle of data. As with many companies in the finance industry, T.D. Ameritrade has grown through acquisitions, and, you know, both, but they can only give you growth to a certain level. And then you really have to start looking internally and saying, how can we, you know, from our data resource, how can we understand more about our business and more of the opportunities that we have? How can we get closer to our clients and understand them better? So the whole emphasis was really on how do we start great opportunity to figure out how we can take the company to a new level of growth, you know, and governance type of issues, clearly. What do you see here for creating the role of the data office? That was for me, Tony. John here? Yes. Yeah, okay. That was a interference or something on the phone. Anyway, three reasons to stand up besides the ones that were mentioned. One I've seen is competitive nature where it is that a market share has been written and it can be traced back to some type of data deficiency. Compliance is a big one. It is becoming bigger in non-financial. It's been financial, but also in healthcare, several places moving in the healthcare industry for CEOs. I believe Derek touched on one really growth in market share. All nations can't grow by mergers and acquisitions anymore. I see the, I call it data, we used to talk about disparate data, now I call it about desperate data, just a little vile there because there's so many initiatives going on and everyone's running into each other. And Ursula hinted on that one. And then the last one I've seen is I've seen one example of a MeToo, which is Cogswell Cogs has one, so now Spacely's Brokets needs to have one. It's fine one example of that. So I think I'm in line with what the other panelists have said and a few other reasons there. Well, let's jump ahead and bring the sequence questions for a minute then because the graphic is interesting. Why is it that financial services has been supposed to embrace this role, do you think? Maybe I can start, I'll start to start out. Thank you. Broadly speaking, if you look at the finance industry, financial crisis, and there's been a lot of spockage that has been turned onto interest and risk and the increased regulations that have been coming out are really requiring organizations to have a word, get their act together around day two and six. They're expected to have a certain level of control over their data and to be able to report out on a time-spaces. So financial services has been a big push, but in addition to that, there's always the growth side as well because in any disruption of marketplace, there's always an opportunity to report for the quick and swift to grow an extra market share. So I think it's the two together. From our perspective, it was a combination of, in order, a lot of the regulatory needs that we've had, we've added people, right, instead of improving the processes and the availability of the data. So we were adding people pretty consistently in order to meet the regulatory needs. At the same time, with the years that we've been faced with, coming up with new ways to actively look at our customers in order to come up with additional revenue opportunities, was growing exponentially. So the organization both spoke to creating this type of environment in order to do this and the role to help manage the data. So it's probably a mix of both the top of environment that we've been in, both on the regulatory side and on the interest rate pressures that I think has driven financial services to move in this direction more quickly. The regulatory piece is extremely significant because right now, with the additional types of regulators that we're asking banks to provide, we're also looking for extreme transparency on the data itself. So when we put an answer to a question to them, they want to be able to track that data all the way back to the source system. They want to see the data that goes with it. They want to understand why we chose that and how we came to that answer. So that ability to provide that amount of transparency has also driven to this sort of environment and then making sure that we use that environment to try and grow revenues, which the banks have been challenged with given the interest rate environment. Sure. Any additional perspective on financial services and why that has led the way? I particularly thought that this applies for anyone, even if they're not in financial services. This is a phenomena that I've noticed with a lot of the organization change aspects of things and that is that organizations have hired people to do things around data for a very long time. And I think that's one of those things. Or maybe a second or third generation of somebody to do the spreadsheet hire somebody to clean up and gather it and clean it up some more and then do the report or something like that. And the same thing is in part a reaction to, well, maybe that's not such a good idea when 70% of my workforce, when I break down the hours, is hunting and gathering and cleaning up data. So there's a very powerful lesson in there and something that I can confirm of magnitude is going on out there. This costs are now a big consideration and a big concern for this. Let's get to the heart of the question then about what is the role of the CDO? We're going to ask each of our students to talk from experience here and maybe compare it to if they happen to know how other organizations have the role. Ursula, if we could start with you, please. Can you define your responsibilities relatively or is it... Probably not. But maybe just start with some of the major categories first. Yes, so I'll add a little bit of context. My role has been interesting and it has evolved a bit in even the 18-plus months that I've been in the role. I just... I'm reporting to my fourth boss in that period of time. So that goes to some of the where does this fit in an organization and what role should it play? The place that I'm in now is on the business side. So I've had responsibility for the tech development before I had the development teams, the delivery teams for building our MDM solution as well as a new warehouse, the CI tools, the Dell tools, that whole organization that now is my, I'll say, partner organization. Still sits technology. What I've moved over with is how do we get the most of business value out of our data? So I think from my perspective, it is a clear role because it is meant to be a business role. My background was not in technology and so although I got pretty deep in the technology over that time, it is a nice split because now I have a technology team that I partner with in order for me to deliver the business value. So what does that include? What you can truly think of as data governance, data stewardship both for what we consider our source systems or the accounting platforms as well as data stewardship at the party or customer level for the new master data management tool we're putting in. It is also enterprise ownership of those tools. As a company, most business areas have tools that they use and they are the business owners, provide the requirements, et cetera, for those. I know of the responsibility of being the enterprise owner of enterprise assets like our warehouse and our customer master. In addition, I have the responsibility for driving the new utilization from service providers, people like DMB, Axiom, Thompson Reuters, CapIQ, all of those tools. As well as leveraging the data that we have put into this infrastructure, our new data supply line. So there are BI parts of the set as well. So BI traditionally has a more technical flavor to it. I no longer responsible for the infrastructure and the environment, but it should be the one providing the requirements so that they could ensure that the environment meets our needs of our end users, our analytics teams, our reporting teams. And then in addition, data quality. So data quality from a source system all the way through the warehouse and within the master data management tool. A team of family members. What? No, I have a very small team. Let's delve into a couple of points before I ask the same questions. So you said that you were reporting to four different people of the course in the past couple of years. Can you just define what those roles were? Yes. It's an interesting new item to this chat as well that I didn't mention. So first I was reporting to the CIO for the enterprise. The company then became the head of technology and operations. So I moved to report to the CIO for the support area of the company. So finance, risk, all of the more new line of business, the CIO that had that I was reporting to him. We hired a new head of enterprise architecture that came from a data company including it was a startup big data company so they moved me to report to him. And then within a couple of months the shift over to this business side took place. It goes I think to what do you want the role to do? How much do you want the role responsible for? Should it have both business and tech? Should it sit in the tech side? Should it sit in the tech side? That blended organization that we had I think was working but you know as the leadership of the company continued to evolve and some of these new players come in, divide up I think made sense as well in moving me over to. So I now report to the gentleman that leads marketing analytics, enterprise program management office for all of the large scale projects and programs in the company, and then data. So it blends very nicely with those components as well. Following those two, it feels like about the right place to be. It's challenging to work through so what now, how do you drive the boxes around your work piece, the tech piece because I have to be very involved in the warehouse build, the BI work, the master management because I'm now the requirements component of that which means I'm still very involved in those tech projects. The accountability for the delivery. We'll come back to some of those issues shortly. Derek, let me ask you the same questions. So what general categories of responsibility do you have, please? Okay, so you can probably divide the responsibility categories right in the middle for me and half of them fit into the business and half of them fit into technology buckets. So kind of a hybrid. We're really seen as more of a business, I'm not a hardcore IT, I'm more of a business leader. And the areas that fall fair and square into the business side of it are more like a kind of excellence. So small teams with a very deep reach into the enterprise into all the different business units. And those are categorized in terms of data components, so the whole ownership, stewardship, all of that. We're moving right up to the senior level of the organization. The areas that fall into this are enterprise analytics because we have persisting many teams of analytics folks in the different business units. And so we're federating out with them my core team. And so taking analytics really to the next step by pairing it up with data science. So those tend to be the main sort of business focuses that I have. On the technology side, two categories there. One is integrated architecture and the other is enterprise class data sets, design and development and running. So enterprise data warehouse team, for example, in my area. And as we continue to build new enterprise class data assets, those kinds of teams are in my area as well. The data architecture side of it is all the typical things that you would expect to find in any enterprise information management organization shots. So data architects, metadata teams, data quality people, the data management and so on. So pretty broad aspect of responsibilities but a blend of business and technology. We have more or longer assignments and the technology side is run more from a perspective of having a centralized team that deal with those specific aspects. And thank you both. I'm going to reference a couple other questions from the audience at the moment real quick as they're related to your answers here. So how many people, before I do that, Derek, I'm not sure that you answered the question of what to and has that changed over the last couple of years? The reporting structure, when I was originally approached on this, I think I had been consulting to TD Operator and I was consulting to the Chief Operating Officer who also has a bunch of enterprise shared service type responsibilities. And he runs a back office and middle office, et cetera, et cetera. So the possibility was one and still is in the COO org. And so that changed. The reason I agreed that COO would be a great role for this role but really the real reason was because I wasn't fortunate enough to work for the CEO in five previous lives I consulted to him. So we have had the opportunity to work together and he knows essentially what has to happen in terms of the change that the enterprise needs to go through. So to me the whole question of to whom should the CDO report is really answered by another question which is who must effectively help you to bring about the change that you need to affect in your organization. And clearly in my case because of our previous history together but also just the fact that he's got a complete reach across the enterprise. It made really good sense to go with the COO storyline. And then I'll go into a couple of these things and John I'm going to ask you please to just give me a comment from somebody who's probably seen many similar structures. So it sounds like each of you, Derek, are sort of a shared services model. Is that a reasonable structure? Do you provide services or expertise to a number of different liners or departments? Correct. Okay. So do you each have a dedicated team? Some of them do but some of them don't influence through folks who don't necessarily work directly for you. I have a direct team but in addition I leverage we have data stewards that sit in the business and I actually leverage them, I would be a dotted line for them from a reporting responsibility orientation that the work that they need to do, they may have other roles, other functions that they perform within their line of business but they do have an ability around data quality and data stewardship to me. So it's a good idea. I've got some stuff that is centralized and some stuff that is more decentralized or federated out to the business areas. Okay. I just wanted to put some specifics on that. How many people do you have who work directly for you and any other job functions that they have, please? Do you have any particular titles that reflect those functions? So as part of this change that is ebbing and flowing a little bit, the org is probably somewhere between 20 or 30 people because we're debating where some of the folks should sit or in the tech org or in my org. The org that they would have would be around data management or how to data governance. I have a data management analyst that works with a lot of the stewards in a little more specific things. I've got a digital media leader. So somebody who's actually managing our metadata, the repository provides the requirements for the tech work as well as working with our business users or end users on how to best leverage the encyclopedia as well as with the stewards to ensure that it's properly maintained. Also, we've got a part of this org, has what we call analytic capabilities, and that's where the BI functions and the data service provider piece comes into play. That term is about 11 people. And then I also have, which is sort of unrelated to the data structure role, is I have a data that actually supports directly our community bank or the consumer side of the house with their sales tools and reporting tools, et cetera. So that teams about 20 people, give or take. The same question to you, please, Derek. How many folks report directly to you and what job functions to that? There are some folks that report directly. In the sequence of importance, they're all equal in my sight and all critical components to what we get done. But I have a chief data scientist. I have an enterprise analytics director, enterprise governance director, enterprise printable data architect, an enterprise data architecture director, enterprise but not least, is enterprise data asset development director. Obviously, of the functionalities that you're generalizing for, you essentially have a paper for each of those. Do they then have additional or not? They do. They do have additional folks. I'm not really at liberty to disclose numbers of teams. They do have teams. And as I mentioned before, the emphasis on the business-related functions is on a small team that really provides a center of excellence and a federated blend. And then on the more technology-focused things, there it's a central team. So what are you drawing on that you have seen? There's something that maybe you... If you have any advice on the structures... I don't have any work on this. I think I just had to talk. What I see is, and you heard I think from our two other panelists, a pro-different view, different communities of people, and that's what I see everywhere. I've got CEOs. I've talked with them. I have zero direct reports, and they are an influencer. And that's kind of a big question mark as to what's going to happen there. Two CEOs that have been essentially replaced with what used to be called the director or vice president of enterprise information management. They've got all the BMI, all the data use, all the analytics, and that's it. So I think in terms of a standard model, there isn't one. In terms of advice, not going into or knowing specifics, the one thing I always bring up with CEOs or companies that want to have a CEO is, for example, I had a CEO ask me, should I have a CEO? And I said, well, do you have an accountable for information and data? And he said, accountable for information and data. And I said, well, do you need somebody in between to herd the cats to represent that? Well, maybe. So the first thing I advise is, what is that person accountable for? And maybe the panelists want to weigh in and counter me or whatever. And then what are the authorities that they have? It was pretty clear from the organization that we're described that there are some accountabilities and some things that have to get done in some areas. And then some of the other areas are those areas where we really get challenged by data governance because of some of the factors and the organization aspects where sometimes the authority and the accountabilities and the cover are greatly across those. So I would say that would be my first talk is, can you quantify the authority? Can you quantify your accountabilities? And does everybody understand that? Let me turn that question over to the panelists. We're going to position ourselves. So as far as quantifying the responsibilities and accountabilities, because we're so new to a lot of things that we're doing like data science, for example, the first question is, why should I be passionate about it? So a lot of this has to do with education initially. So it's a little bit fuzzy in those kinds of situations. However, in places like the Enterprise Data Warehouse, we've already got an established case of work that gets done and ways of measuring value that we're getting out of the Enterprise Data Warehouse. So it's a bit of a blend of areas that can be really well-defined and others that are emerging. That's probably the best way to describe it in overview. Also, any thoughts or questions about measurement? Yeah, so I think from perspective, as we can better articulate where we're trying to head with it because I think it is still evolving from the leadership perspective here, but the way we actually measure the work is around business value realization on the spend that we do have, as well as some sustainability metrics. So that goes to things like about usage of our metadata repository, investment in data quality, implementation of the master data management, and then the leveraging of that to meet the needs of other projects that are going on within the company from a warehouse perspective. It's going to continue to evolve on how we'll measure it, but we do have some measurements today that are very focused around how we utilize value from the implementation of both the technology as well as the business process around the data management side. Okay, thank you. There are numerous questions from the audience I'd like to try to get to, please. Let me just bundle three of them together here. A quick one for you, Derek, please. A question about what does the Data Assets Development Manager do? You mentioned that as one of the folks who reports directly to you. Okay, so any enterprise data asset, any enterprise class data asset, so enterprise data warehouse is obviously one of those, but our master data management capability, our reference data management capability, our data storage and exploration environment, et cetera, et cetera. Anything that is an enterprise class data asset is essentially under the directorship of this individual. The reason there is the architect thing of design build and implement and operate and run and maintain. So, you know, is there a complete spectrum around enterprise class data assets? The word development in that context means a certain development or system development around that. A question here for whoever would like to add to the level of the organization a value that the CDO role can provide. So in the case of CDO and TD Ameritrade, how much your word development function at the time? I can join in a few if that's okay. Yep, great. It was a couple of days. I think, you know, as a firm, there was some action that had been given sporadically to enter enterprise data, but not, you know, consistent basis. And so it was really the whole situation of starting from ground zero. So a situation like that, it's absolutely true and what the question is suggesting is that you've got a fair amount of, you know, financial, foundational stuff that needs to get put in place. It's like, you know, building a house and, you know, you've got to get the foundation in, you've got to get the plumbing done, and you've got to, you know, figure all those basis before you can really start making huge progress on the finish at the finish. So there was obviously also, you know, a lot of work had been done on analytics, but it was done more kind of in silos. And the opportunity when we started up the role was about bringing those silos together and highlighting areas where we can, as a joint team, you know, address very specific items that everyone can get benefit out of and then connect the unique individual things that are unique to specific parts of the enterprise to continue those as separate items, but identify those, those wide things that everyone could get, you know, from. So what was your experience at Key Bank? So we were running early days. We were, we've been operating very heavily in silos, and so I would say from an enterprise level, we were probably at that 0 to 1 level. Some pockets better than that, but nothing really from an enterprise perspective. A number of failed data governance initiatives, a couple of very large ones in the 15 years that I've been here, as well as some smaller ones that were spearheaded within lines of business. So I think across the board I would have said we were extremely immature. Part of the reason I think for creating the role was somebody to shepherd us through that process and really care about data, be the spokesperson. We used some, somebody else say like be the conscience of data. So I think that's really by being as immature from the capability maturity model to what we were trying to do. I think that is part of the impetus for creation of the role. Okay. I think the role helps to bring greater value to the, John, I'm interested in your opinion there. Do you need for bringing in a CEO? Intuitively it sounds like a little bit of invitation to, despite the fact that they're both, they're up to being able to make it work. Yeah, I kind of caution folks when they say, well, we're level whatever at whatever maturity scale they've adopted and we're not mature for a CDO, or we want a CDO to encourage maturity scale. I hesitate that the majority curve to the value to CEO is bringing to the organization. I think no matter what your point on what this person is has to bring value to the organization or he wouldn't be bringing that person in. And so to me the maturity is a measurement of where you were when the CDO function came about to where you were to be. You could say that just bringing in a CDO and saying that you want somebody to encourage or the information asset is some type of maturity, or at least awareness of the need to change maturity. I like to use that as an independent assessment of where you are but not the driver of value more of a progress metric. Sure. Hey, Tony, I would just add to that. I would totally agree. We did not directly provide the maturity to the creation of the role, the way I described sort of that crisis we had around projects really drove that. And then if we tried to pay well where we were maturity-wise to the creation of the role there probably is some linkage in the fact that we weren't very mature but that we didn't create the role in order to drive that maturity up the curve. Right. So let's look at it hypothetically. We have an organization that says we're in maturity 4 out of 5 and then whatever that means to them, right, 4 out of 5. So now we need a CDO to bring us from 4 to 5. I think a lot of organizations would kill to figure out how you got from 1 to 4 without the CDO. Right. So again, to reinforce the point, you want to kind of separate the two. You don't necessarily want the CDO to come in and just move it from a 1 to a 2 to a 2 or a 3. There's got to be some other metric and some other standard there. Or you won't know what this person is supposed to be doing. Sure. So I'm going to be talking about data management and maturity levels on one of our future shows. So I'm going to try to take a couple more questions in the short period of time that we have here and then I have a point or two on the list of those. Quickly. I can't continue the question about who owns the data. Presumably the question there is, you know, is it your department that owns the platforms or systems? So from what I mentioned earlier, the platform side of it, those enterprise tools are owned from a business perspective. But from it owning the data, lines of business own the data that they are part of the creation of it, right? Selling, surfing, all that stuff is customer data from that international stuff. The business is owned. The reason that I've got is to be that conscience, to make sure that we are taking care of it in a way that it's treated like an asset, like other assets we have, like people, like money. And then we aren't just thinking of it as like something actually we have to do. So keeping that focused on the fact that they actually are responsible and accountable for their data is also what that meant. So I think that's where the governance role comes into play, which is to explain what is the most important stuff that we need them to maintain. It's not everything. Everything doesn't have the same level of importance to us. And so how do I help prioritize for them where they need to be directing their attentions to ensure that this quote-unquote owner of an enterprise asset is managed properly? That's kind of similar to something on our side. You know, I chaired the Data Owners Council. That's made up of, you know, the business leads, the management directors of the various, you know, business units. And one of the earliest things that we did was we built, you know, a subject area, data market, you know, that group through the model. And I chaired figuring out collaboratively with them how we would assign ownership. So that we, you know, only after, you know, actually one or two meetings were we able to put out every single subject in the enterprise. Did I get any of those? Yes, I did. But it was a thing that you would expect would be something in my area. So the theory of metadata, for example, probably belongs to me. The rate of data management area belongs to me. Now each individual owner, you know, it's established at a subject area, but of course when you look at the attributes and you go down into each of the attributes, you're going to find that there are certain things that, well, in that subject, it doesn't make sense for me to own that. And again, we've got a process whereby we can, you know, within a 24-hour period, you know, add ownership, you know, to specific attributes. So it's, you know, it's kind of a matrix of ownership that we've developed and it's working very, very well. But those are those points, you know, it's not a question of ownership, but it's something that you've got to get every single data item in the enterprise. You do want to start by identifying critical data elements and using and prioritizing on those and incrementing your way through that. As far as the platforms are concerned, you know, we own the Enterprise Data Warehouse platform. So as soon as we start bringing on some of these other enterprise loss assets, we will be owning those as well. We can hear about inspectors would help remove closer to, and I'll overlay a question on that. Each company is probably slightly different about what they're looking for in a, in the video role. I think probably we, there was a gentleman actually here at Key that had been in architecture for quite a long time, not on the B side, but in overall, I would say data architecture. And the number one thing that they gave him on what he needed to do more or learn more about was the business. So how does, how do you get value from using data from a business perspective, understanding the business's side of what's needed from the data? And the business, at least from our perspective, has, has been changed in articulating requirements. So the role that I brought out of is that in between being helped liaison between the businesses and the technology folks, speaking both languages in order to translate what the businesses are trying to accomplish, how they run their businesses in order to drive the, the data from a data standpoint. So the challenge I think is how do you accumulate the, the, the businessmen to be able to show the value from both the business side and the tech side combined? So I think the heavy business oriented, oriented, and that learning around the business stuff that was probably the, the thing I'd recommend doing. Okay. We're, we're actually playing out of time. Derek, I'm going to ask you to sign on this final question because I don't want to ask John. John, you, you can talk to a lot of companies about how, how those, what, what do you see as the critical, you know, the hiring and the right person? The individual, I'll take the 15 second response here for time. The individual has to have an understanding of enterprise information management on the E and not the information management part. Community skills have to be excellent, especially in the area of building alliances and communicating concepts and being very clear and concise. The business acumen has to be there. Under the business, understand the environment of the whole business, your business, but the entire marketplace that you're in and be able to do a business alignment of the data to that and the conversion of that. And lastly, I think they have to have the mind like an engineer, someone who can go from the abstract to deployment and cross that conceptual bridge and explain what's going on to people along the way. And they just can't be totally hung up on data. They have to be hung up on the success of the organization first and in data second. Well, there are a couple of unanswered questions here around data quality. We will have a quick sign of those in a future session. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you to us, Derek and John for joining us today. I'd like to thank our audience likewise for your questions and for standing us for the past hour. Let me make one final plug for the vision conference coming up April 29 through 30 in Austin, Texas. I hope to see many of you join that particular event, including our three panelists. And I look forward to seeing you on the first Tuesday of May in our webinar series on the CDO agenda. Thank you, and I'll hand back to you for a quick wrap-up. And thank you again to our panelists for the final discussion. And to thank everyone, we will be posting the recording of this webinar to dataversity.net within two business days. And I will send out a follow-up email to let you know the links and other requested information along with that. And again, thanks, as Tony mentioned, thanks for attending and for your fabulous questions and interaction with our webinars. I hope everyone has a great day. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and input today. It was a very good discussion, I thought. Thank you. Thank you.