 Hey, GovCon Giants family, Eric Coffey here, your host of the GovCon Giants podcast. If you are new to our podcast, we interview people, companies, organizations that are all supporting small business federal contracting. So if you or someone that you know is in the arena and you're making it happen, if you have not already been on our show, definitely reach out to us to be part of the GovCon Giants podcast show. So today, our guest is Ms. Roberta Moore. Ms. Roberta Moore started her organization Amora Incorporated back in 2002. She actually graduated from the 8A program in 2014, and so we're able to draw from those experiences of what it was like to be part of the 8A program back in the early 2000s. But more so than that, in today's episode we discuss how she acquired her first mentor, how she met her second mentor, and then how that mentor gave her a back office. And then from there, she was able to grow her business and start doing O'Connor's contracts. That's right, work outside of the continental United States. Stay tuned for this upcoming episode with Ms. Roberta Moore. My name is Roberta Moore, and the name of my company is Amora Incorporated. Okay. All right. Now, just before we actually turned on the cameras, you were telling me that you were the rainmaker for your company. Yes. Tell us more. Okay. So I was talking about how I didn't have a BD person, or I did. I actually paid some BD people, but no one ever brought me any contracts that I was the rainmaker for my company. So everything that came in came through me, although I spent money paying other people to do BD for me. If that makes sense to me. Does that make any sense? Okay. So what would you say to folks out here who's just getting started? I mean, should they hire BD people? Should they focus on learning BD themselves? What do you think? Well, I think that they should bet their BD people. I'm not against hiring BD people. I think they should be betted. I also think that people buy from people they like. So if they like you, then they're going to want to see you and they're going to want to buy from you. So I think that you should do BD as well as if you're big enough to hire BD professionals. Oh, interesting. Now, again, when you say when you first got started, so take us back to when you first got started. How about that? Oh my. Let's go back in time. Okay. Let's go back in time. So Eric, I started in 2002 as a single parent of three boys. And so my youngest is 23 now. So that's, and he was four when I started. So that's 19 years ago. So I started because of necessity. And basically I worked for Naval Surface Warfare Center. I was redlined out to the old David Taylor model basin. And so I worked there and I had my youngest son and I was like, I want to work from home. I want to have my own business. So on and so forth. So I actually resigned, resigned from the federal government. Yes. And so I know it's gutsy. So I resigned from the federal government and I decided I was going to start this business. Didn't know what I was doing. Didn't get anywhere far. And so my ex-husband told me, he says, you need to get a job. And I was thinking, well, I have you, why should I get a job? But, you know, as it worked out, one of my colleagues from NSWC told me that there was a small business that was right in my backyard, not too far from my house. They were a minority owned company, 8A, and they had a contract at NSWC in that I should go and work for them and manage the contract. So I went for the interview. I got the interview, went in and declined the job and told them that I was an entrepreneur. And I still have no money, no contracts. So eventually. You are gutsy. No, it was terrible. So eventually things got tight. And so my sister said, go back if they'll hire you once, they'll hire you twice. So go back. So I went back. They hired me. And I ended up managing the NSWC contract. So I did the projections. I did the monthly report. I did the hiring. I did all of that for their contract. And so that was the school of business for me. So that's how it really got started is I had to work for a small business. And yeah, so I worked for that small business. So when you went back, just for clarification, we went back, you didn't go back to the government. You went to the small business itself. I went back to Ellen. Okay. And they hired you to manage there. Yes. They hired me after they offered me the job the first time. And I declined saying that I was an entrepreneur. Right. Okay. So you managed the contract for them. Yes, I did. So that was the school of business though. And technically I was a fish out of water because I came from the federal government and went into small business. It was very difficult. It was a whole different animal. Everything specialized in the federal government. So now I'm in a small business and I have to wear all these hats. You have to do BD. You have to manage this contract so on and so forth. So that was the school of business for me. The company ended up graduating from the 8A program. And I had the right idea that I was going to become an 8A so that I could help them and take over 51% of their contracts. So lo and behold, I didn't get 8A fast enough. Okay. And so when I submitted my 8A paperwork, they were like, it was future five fish or something. Get it out of here. They, yeah, they got rid of it really fast. And then I happened to be at a conference and everything went electronic. And once it went electronic, I had everything at the push of a button. And I was actually certified as 8A. So I believe that was in 2005 that I became 8A certified. 2003, I became HubZone certified. And so while I was at that small business, Eleni, I ended up meeting another woman owned company, a retired colonel from the Air Force. And she had a big contract with DIA or in Baghdad, Deborah Scott Thomas, DST. And so I offered it to Eleni, the company I was working for. They said they did not want to have anything to do with Baghdad. So it was the first right of refusal, right? I gave them the first refusal. So Deborah Scott Thomas said, well, we want to work with you, your HubZone. And from that contract, I made enough money to work for a more full time on my own. So I didn't have to work for Eleni anymore. Prior to becoming 8A and HubZone while I was at Eleni, they did pay me as a 1099. So they paid me under my business eventually. So they were basically my first contract, Eleni. Actually, there's a lot of things to the story that I really do like. I'm enjoying. And I think people want to just kind of stop it and highlight for folks because I do know some of the questions that people are asking out there listening to this. One is you just kind of answered it about them paying you as a 1099er. But at what point did that happen? Later I started my business. And after... When did they start paying as a 1099er? When did they start paying me as a 1099er? Yeah, as a contract. Remember you said they paid you as a contract to Eleni? Right. Once I started a more incorporated. So I told them what my goal was. My goal was to become 8A for them. So I wanted to... I love it. Exactly. So my goal was so that they could have an 8A that they could go and that they could keep, I mean 49% of their work. So in turn to help you out, they start paying you as a 1099er and through your company. Exactly. Okay. So they were along with the plan. They were going along with the plan. Right. Because I presented it. And the beauty of it is that I negotiated for them to pay my insurance through the company. I know. That's awesome. I needed insurance. I had three boys. I was a single parent. I mean that was the biggest concern at that particular time. So. Right. Let's talk about that. Most people think and when they have three boys and you're a single parent that you keep a job, not quit a job. Exactly. Right. But your brain says something different. Exactly. Because I have this baby. I had already... I mean I had two older boys and then I had this baby and I was like, I want to stay home with this baby. So the only way I'm going to really be able to do that is I have to work for myself. But that is definitely unconventional thinking. I agree. I agree. And it's some gutsy. It takes a lot of courage to do that. I mean I ended up going through a divorce during the process. And my boys were really what made me want to have my own business and really work hard at it because I knew there was no other way that as a single woman I was going to be able to give them a decent life. So I figured I have to go out here and make it happen for them. And that's what I did. Wow. That's great. I love it. The other part of the story that I want to recap is now this contract that was in back at that with Deborah Scott Thomas. Yes. What were you doing? Because I mean again most of us when I think about... I'm kind of like your first L and E. Like I don't know about no back that contract. I would be a little hesitant also. Most of us don't know how to work outside of our cities. And then you talk about going to Baghdad. Right. So the beauty of the Baghdad contract is that we were building up the infrastructure. So we were doing IT. And so L and E was doing IT. And I was managing a Pentagon contract for L. E. At the time and it was coming to an end. And I had already gotten all those people. Top secret facility plans. So it was like they were asking me like Roberta, what's the next, you know, gig? What are we going to do? And I didn't have another contract in queue for them. So when this opportunity came up, I had somewhere to send them and believe it or not, it was so interesting because I was, I just happened to be at a Homeland Security conference. And it was a guy sitting there and he had his glasses on sitting with his laptop. And I was like, this is the last person. And I said, he looks smart. I'm going to leave my card with him. And that's how it is up with the Baghdad. No, no. Yes. So that's how I got that introduction to DST and Deborah Scott Thomas. And later she ended up becoming my mentor and she gave me the whole back office. I mean, so it will end up EPA contract. I mean, I have my name on the Ronald Reagan in the Ronald Reagan building on the door for EPA. So it was a very lucrative relationship just for leaving that one card with that last guy as I'm walking out the door. What'd you say to him? I just, um, I told him that I had cleared professionals at the Pentagon and that the contract was getting ready to end. And I'm looking for somewhere to place. That's what I told him. And he remembered cleared professionals. That was the thing that he needed to ask that I had cleared it professionals. So that's how I ended up getting that phone call. Um, and from there. So we built up the infrastructure, but it was one contact that I had hired on the Pentagon contract who like gotten everybody, like my phone was bringing off the hook because of this one. Person. There's one female and she just had the people calling like crazy. So I made enough money to leave Eleni. That's great. Time for myself. Wow. Wow. Wow. That's awesome. No, that's amazing. You know, actually that's one of the questions that people often ask me and I have it here written down, but it's people always ask me. When is the right time to leave when, you know, when you first go out there on your own and you're still working a job and starting your business. So what advice would you say to someone when, when is the right time to leave your job? I mean, you obviously left in the beginning, which was, I don't know how that, that's, you know, but how do you decide when is it the time to start, you know, devoting more than, you know, 50% of your time on your business, 75% of your time in business to really help it grow and take off. Well, it's not for the faint of heart. And I don't think I almost want to say it's like, you know, like having a baby, it's never the right time. You know, you're, this is your baby. It's never the right time. You're going to learn through the process and it's like marriage. Like you don't get married when you're rich. You kind of want to build a prenup, right? I like it. So the thing is, is that it's, it's never the right time. You just have to know that you're ready and then you take that leap of faith and you, you jump out there. And you, you're going to fall. You're going to fail. And I mean, it hasn't been easy. It was very, very difficult. Like I said, I was young. I was young and ambitious, gutsy, you know, like most of my colleagues, they retired from the federal government or they retired from the military and then they went and started their business. So they're in the eight a program now. I graduated in 2014 and I almost lost my shirt. Like I couldn't keep the lights on. But the thing is, is that I, I, I lived through it. You know, I lived through it. And so it was very difficult and, you know, it's been an uphill battle, but I, I was in it. Like this is my baby. I started this baby. I have a purpose. And I think that's another thing having your why. What's your why for doing it? Now tell us about that. Because we don't, we don't often hear those stories of. I almost lost my shirt. And it's what's interesting is in going back and doing the research for my upcoming book, Seekers of a Gupcon mind, I've realized that since my start of the podcast, two of the companies that I had on my show have since closed their doors. Well, tell us about the difficult times because, you know, I haven't had any, many people talk about the difficult times specifically. They've talked about, you know, sometimes when they're starting out and being difficult, you're saying as business went on and progressed, you're telling us all the up, up and up. So what happens on the down, what happened? How did it start coming down? What changed? Because I know you want at the beginning, you want some million dollar contracts in the beginning of 05 and, you know, with your hub zone, you want another million dollars with the 8a and some other stuff. What happened? Right. And that's the point. I think that most people don't talk about, you know, losing your shirt. And I said, I almost lost my shirt. I actually did. I lost my shirt. And I couldn't keep the lights on. But I say that to say, I remember when I got my first Walter Reed contract, my first sole source from Walter Reed. And I, it was like the Cotar somebody, they said, yeah, in five years, you won't be around. Because that is what is indicative of the 8a program. So you, you do well for nine years. And then after that, you can't stay alive because no, you're not getting sole source. You can't compete in the open market, or you haven't prepared yourself to compete in the open market. Then if you get to a certain size, you're not mid-size. You're still small and you're still, if it's hard, it's difficult to compete. So, you know, you're expected to die after the 8a program. So those companies that, that make it through the 8a program, I take my hat off to them because I know how difficult it is. So what I had to do was I had to reduce my infrastructure. I mean, I had to cut back. And that means cutting back on people that are on your overhead, you know, cutting back on your location expense, like your, your office expenses. I mean, there were so many things and it's, it's a difficult process because you don't know what to expect. You don't know if you're going to be able to sustain even the cuts. So what you're saying is during a time where you were in the 8a program, you did, everything was great. Right. And then when you stopped out, when you got out of the 8a program is when things started going south. Right. Things started going south. And the thing is, is you think you're doing everything right there. You know, you can do everything right. You can prepare for graduation. You can come. You can prepare to mentor someone else. You can do all the right things that doesn't mean it's going to work. To have a plan A, B and C. And then they may, you know, none of those may work. And that's what we were talking about prior to the podcast is that. I mean, I was a part of this stage and what our chair, he was like, you could be doing all the right things, but you could be leaning against the wrong wall. You know, you're doing. So it's no magic bullet. You have to try. You have to put your best foot forward. And if those things don't work, then you have to be able to bring things back in. So that you can stay alive and make those hard decisions. And one of the hardest decisions I had to make. It was one of our COO's. She helped my children with their homework. And when I had to let her go. My youngest son was so worried about her. He was so upset that he was so worried about her. And Eric, I had to tell him that like her house is paid off. You're going to be sitting on the curve. We have these unnecessary cuts, you know, and people. How old was, how old was he at the time? Ah, let's see. I don't know if he was in maybe middle school. I'm just wondering what child would be so worried about the. Because if this person has wound up with you, like she basically. She's with you for what? 10 years. Yeah, she was, she was one of my, one of my first contracts I worked to read. Okay. She worked on the contract. Then I brought her into the office to work in my office. And she wasn't the COO at the time. So she grew, she worked her way up. And the house that I live in today, I think she found this house. I think, and I think she went and cleaned out my, my previous, my townhouse. And so she became a part of the family and you know, she was married, she had no children. She was okay. I mean, she had lived a good life. She was okay. We weren't, we weren't, but, but that's what happened. And people resent you. You know, I know that people have probably some more stories about me because of it. Like, well, why didn't you just let me take a pay cut? I couldn't afford a pay cut. I had to cut the bleeding. You know, I had to. I mean, what happened? How did you, did the contracts just start drying up? Well, yes. Some of the contracts started drying up. What else happened? One of the good things that really saved me was that I ended up getting on a full and open army wide local attendance contract and that kind of fed me as the other contracts were drying up. So that was a saving grace that I was able to do that. But yeah, they started drying up some of the, the schedules I was working on, didn't go through some of, like you have consultants working with you and you paid them and you never get the contract. I mean, it was just a lot of things that went on, like on top of raising three boys. So I'm really thankful for the process. I'm not upset about any of it. I'm thankful that I'm, I'm here to have this, you know, podcast interview with you that we, we made it through. And we're, it's still uphill battle, but where we're still here, the doors are still open and we're still ready to do business. Wow. That's, that's a good story. Thank you. No, I, I, I, you know, again, when they, when, when you read the books, they said you can learn some things from success, but you can learn a whole lot more from failure. And I have a lot of, I was actually taking notes myself and right now some good points. Why do you think it is, and I, and you did give some points about this, but why do you think it is that the eight eight companies don't make it beyond eight A. I think sometimes you're pigeonholed into certain areas. Okay. I think one of the things is preparing for eight A. I mean, for graduation that you prepare for graduation. And, and SBA is really good with that. They want you to prepare for graduation. They try to make sure that you're prepared for graduation teaming, because like I said, I was the rainmaker. All of my contracts, I was the prime. There was like not one contract. If I was a sub, it was very rare and it did not bring me much money. Like it wasn't a big, you know, it wasn't 95% of my revenue. So the other thing is, is I went at it alone. I mean, like I said before, I was the rainmaker. I didn't have a lot of partners. I mean, and I tried. There were some large companies that sought me out and we tried to win some things together. We did not. It's just, you know, it's business. It's a roller coaster. You have to ride. You have to, you know, it goes up. And when it comes down, you have to ride it. You're screaming going up and you scream it out. That's true. That's true. That's true. I like that when you scream it going up and scream it out. You know, that's, that's true. That's very good. I always tell people, I said, look, winning a contract is very exciting and very terrifying. Yes. Because now you, you've won a contract. Yes. You're happy, but then you have to perform and deliver. Right. Yeah. And that's when it hits you and it's like, okay. Now from my observations, the last four years, speaking with people and hearing what you said about the program, you know, my belief is that while they, they try and do a really good job of the application for a day, I think the government does a poor job on the education of when is the right time to get into the program. And you admit it that when you first start, you didn't know anything, right? You came out of the government. Right, right. Okay. And so for me, I think that a lot of the companies that go into a day, they're told by contracting the officers. They're told by P tag. They're told by all these people that a day is the holy grail of getting contracts. And so they never learn how to start a run a business. And a doesn't teach you how to run business. Well, I think you're absolutely correct. But I think I started, I got into the eight a program at the right time. Yes, I did. And the reason why I say that I did is because I came out the gate with a contract like I did. Yeah, you were ready to go. You were ready. Right. I was ready. But that's why you're also been here for 19 years. Right. Right. I was ready to go out the gate. And so I mean, I had been marketing to Walter Reed, and they had my trifle that I made on my printer at home or sitting on their bookcase. And one of the, you know, contracting officers picked it up and called me up and said, you know, so that's how you were right. But when we talk about what the culture said to you about all the eight a's not, you know, when they graduate losing and not being in business. So you think that's a good, that's that some part of the reason. Like you said, because they're not ready or they were never ready. Right. They were never ready to be in business in the beginning. Well, I think that the eight a program spoils you. Higher. You are able to get. And things of that nature. So I think it can spoil you and that if you don't have the right people around you preparing you to do the right thing so that when you do graduate, if you have these full and open competition, you have these contracts in place that are not eight a. And so small business, full and open things of that nature, GSA schedule. So I just think that, that, you know, you can become dependent on it. And when it's gone, you know, you're used to living at, you know, a certain standard and right. And then now you no longer have that. You have to change things or you have to invest. You have to take your eight a money and invest it back into your company so that you can build. So you can continue to build. So when you're at your high, but you never know, you know, a lot of times you don't know when, when, when you're not going to be at your high. Cause I mean, you know, you could be 20 million and lose one contract. That could be 10 million. I mean, you cut your company in half. You lose another one. You're a five million. You know, that's a big step. Exactly. That's a big step. So those are the things that could happen with government contracting. I mean, you could be at one million and get a contract for 32. You know, you're at 32 million just overnight. So those are the things that happen. And that's the beauty of it. That's why we do it. That's why we stick with it because, you know, it's good. We're the crazies. We're the crazies. We're the crazies and it's good when it's good. It's like, so you, you have this, this relationship and he's great when he's great. And he's bad when he's bad. Okay. No, no, I love it. I love it. Well, so now coming out of it, how are you able to rebound? Rebuilding myself new relationships because that's the other thing, Eric. A lot of my contacts are elderly or they, they, they're deceased. I mean, so yeah, they're, they're a great role in government contracting has changed. And so people retire. It's just, so now I'm meeting new people and just kind of redeveloping myself. And I even had the opportunity to be a part of the SBA Emerging Leaders Program. I think that was, was huge in 2016. And then I was a part of the vet biz ladies 2019 Genesis cohort. And that was with 29 other business women and entrepreneurs. And so those things are invaluable. Those are the things that help you to keep going to build new relationships and to just rebuild. Okay. No, no, it's great. Now, let's go into some of the things. Having been in a brown business 19 years. Can you tell me something that was hard when you started in business? That's still hard today. Writing proposals. Proposals are tough. In the office. I've done some all nighters. I feel like, you know, how they said, Beyonce forgot to eat. She was on tour. And she was just going and going. I mean, I've been on stage like that. Put no proposals. So that whole proposal process is still hard. I mean, you got to get it right. You got to answer the mail. You got to answer the mail. That proposal is tough. You mentioned that you were in emerging leaders and the vet biz lady cohort. What other training resources have you had along the way to help you in dealing with your ups and downs of being a business? Well, I was a part of this stage. And so you keep mentioning this. I don't know this. Yeah, it's an international CEO advisory board. And so, like, it's huge, but it's nothing like it works for being in business. But I mean, like you get a lot of coaching and all of those things. I was a part of, I think the Annapolis chapter. It isn't what you have, Eric, with God con giants, because it's strictly focused on government contracting. And that's where a government contractor needs to be needs to be with you in your organization because you focus on government contracting, whereas this stage, they focus on all types of government. I mean, not government, but entrepreneurs from. They're probably so they're more like my entrepreneurs organization or entrepreneurs network. Yes. Okay, right. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, that was great, because it's lonely at the top, you have other people that you can talk to, you know, we get we had to check in. We checked in once a week, we would discuss how we were doing mentally, emotionally, physically, yes, all of those. Yes. And now it's more like accountability. Yes. And we would rally around each other and, you know, goals for our business and so on and so forth. But that didn't help me get government contracts. No, no, no, I agree with you. So, so that helped you with your sanity of being a business. Yeah, that helped me with my sanity and I had to pay for it. Yeah, no, I know those programs are not cheap. Exactly. Exactly. So just self development. The other thing I did that I'm so thankful for is that I started working out. Like, I noticed that a lot of people that were in government contracting, they were dying of heart attacks strokes and all kinds of crazy things because of the stress level. Right. So I just started dedicating time to myself. I said, you know, and I wish I had done it sooner. I mean, like when I was younger, I was athletic or, you know, that kind of thing but then I started just working sit at my desk, you know, these late nights these early mornings so on and so forth. But once, you know, things started changing, I started just to invest in me, invest in my education, I invested in my health, because that's my model health as well. So I really believe that. So I started running Haines Point and hitting the stairs and, you know, Martin Luther King Memorial, I was running all of that jump rope, all of those things because it keeps your mind clear and it keeps you young and just gets oxygen to the brain and it helps with so many things and it keeps your immune system. So that that really, I can't, I can't emphasize it enough with women, especially because we carry so much, you know, we're not just running a business we're running a household we're doing a lot of other things that that men don't have to worry about that that we have, you know that we carry with us. Let's speak on that same subject matter. How do you feel. Do you feel like you had any, any one treat you differently because you're a woman in business. Did you see that feeling that pressure at all. Over time I became, I was a little closed. So I just put on my power suit, and you know I kept my head up and, and I was very close like I'm much more open now because I've been around longer and I've had some ups and downs and I think it makes you more personable, but no matter to I was pretty close and very just about the business. I was just about the business so with that being the process, I don't think people can get close to me, and I felt like I had something too high. You know, I was a single parent, I didn't want people to know my business I didn't want them to know my struggle that look, I am competent. I'm just as good as anyone else. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth, and I don't have the background that someone else may have, but I'm going to die trying. And I'm, you know I can do it I've done it, you know I have the track record, so on and so forth. So now I think I'm just in a different place, and I'm more comfortable with myself. So I feel like women, we have a lot to contend with. But I also the end and we're also probably misunderstood. Okay. Yeah, sometimes women are misunderstood of why I'm so close or why I was, you know, because I was hiding that I'm carrying this, this weight that I have to deal with all these other things so I don't want you to see that I just want you to see a professional I want you to see a business woman, and I want you to treat me as such. Right, right. No, that's fair. That's fair. When your business was on the down slide, let's say, who are the people that were encouraging and supporting you and what were they saying. Or if it's easier who were the people that were not so encouraging and not so supportive and what were they saying. Is that easy? I don't really know. I mean, I'm going to say this, when I first started my business, and I was making millions. I remember my mom not realizing that I was making millions right she still saw me just as her daughter and it was no big deal. And then I remember when I was going through it, and I was so distraught and frustrated. I remember her telling me this to keep going. So I know. Yeah, so as much as they, you know, your family and others around you may appear not to see your success or, you know, they're like, yeah, when you're when you're down there there for you so I feel like my mom has really been instrumental, because I mean I'm one of eight. I'm the only one that that, you know, has a college degree I'm the only one that started a business. So, you know, I think that she was proud, you know she was proud and she was willing to do anything she can do to help me. I remember one time I was getting sued for a million dollars, and I could not sleep. I called my mother like two or three in the morning right so my mom used all these choice words to talk about the people that were suing me, and I fell asleep, I fell asleep so my mom could not give me any business advice. I mean, I mean, she didn't have anything but it was just shared shared compassion shared understanding and so after I hung up with her. Well, while she was talking I realized I'm just going to call my lawyer in the morning. But she calmed me enough to go to sleep and to deal with it the next day. So I say it's unlikely people that it's not going to be someone who's, you know, that's been doing it and they understand they you know they don't know it's your role you have to travel it so it's always going to be different for each one of us the thing that I did you probably won't do but just knowing that you can do it. I was I was sued for the same thing before so I've been there before I know it's like not to sleep and I know. In fact, I wrote my first book while going through my lawsuit. I said, Well, I guess this government contract thing isn't going to work out. It was, it was actually a private contract but I figured construction. I said, Well, I guess I'm not getting construction so work on writing a book. And so I actually worked out my first book in that time. Yeah, so I have to write my book about it now. Yeah, you should write your book. I mean, you've never heard people say writing a book is therapy. Yes, yes, actually like journaling. You're getting your thoughts of putting my paper and you're not holding it inside. But the thing about that Eric is is that I have like to know him. So there's I mean you could write a book about that situation. You better get started then now. That's going to make me money. You asked me about what are some of the things that people get when I leave my show, you become encouraged that you could do other things you could do your business and work and then also do this other stuff on the side. Wow, I think I'm a pretty good example of that where I do contracts but then, you know, I do this other stuff and give back and help people on the side so you can write your books. Yes, and you're good at. I'm going to have I'm going to hold you to it. We're going to make that our resolution for you to work on your first book. Once you give me the title, then I'll start working on it. We wrap this up. We're going to wrap this one up and I'll help you with a title. Okay, that will was today at the 19. Okay. Yeah. All right, we'll do that. We'll hold you to it. So we talked about exercise. We talked about eating healthy. Your mom helped you. Let me ask you something. So what would you change if you had to go back and do it over again. I would perhaps change my attitude thinking that I wasn't going to be able to live through it, because at the time, you don't think you're going to live through the things that you go through and then you're on the other side of it. And you're like, wow, I made it through that. So I think I wish I knew what I know now that that you're going to make it through this. But one of the things that I noticed Eric is that it helped me to be to think outside the box. Like I learned so much. And I was able to do so much more because I had to deal with the difficulties that you don't think that you can do it like they say the mother of invention is necessity. I think so I had to become inventive, creative. Right. I agree with you, you know, 1000%. I just have a hard time. How do we explain that to other people who've never been through it. Right. How do you, how do you, how do you have someone become at ease with the so called failure. I think you have to tell your story. And I think that that's therapy like even me talking to you about it has been therapy for me. And I think that sometimes if you have a safe place where you can tell your story and be vulnerable so to speak, and allow yourself to get it out of how you feel because it's natural to fill those things. I think if you have a safe place where you can talk about it to those who they experienced it with no judgment, because that's the other thing the judgment zone. So, if you feel like there's no judgment we sign a non disclosure you're not going to repeat it. Right, right. What about the people that, again, they're afraid, right, fear, fear of failure, we get the fair they haven't even failed, they're afraid to do to do something because of the fear of failing. What do you say to them. Well, maybe you shouldn't do it then if you're not afraid. Just let it go. No, I'm horrible. That's terrible. But no, no, I mean, look, I tell you all the time. Hey, look, maybe you're not cut out for this. You know, That was actually said to me when I was going through it. They said, Well, maybe government contract and isn't for you do something else. And, and, you know, that's, that's something to think about that's something to think about. And it didn't come from a bad place. It hurt. But it was true that maybe, you know, you have to give me some other ideas. In other words, they were saying I'm going to give you some other ideas I didn't ask for the ideas, but they're like I'm going to give you some other ideas. So, I mean, like, how did we get here, you know, how did we get to government contracting. Like, if you asked the little girl or little boy, what do you want to be when you grow up, are they going to ever say I want to be a government contractor. No, no, I do hope to change that one day, but not today. No. Right, right. That's not the first thought. I mean, we have to go to the schools and, you know, on career day talk about it so that they can understand. Because that's why I ended up getting into government contracting is because of exposure. Had I not been exposed to a minority owned business and work for them that I would have never started. Same here. Same here. No, absolutely. However, I, you know, I have the utmost belief and sincerity that our government needs us more than ever now. They need good people to come into the space. And so that's, that's one of my reasons for continuing to spread the word and the education. Because despite all of the turbulence that you've experienced, the, the majority of these companies out here for 200 companies are feeding off of government contracts. Right. So there's something good about it. And a lot of people, a lot of corporations have started their organizations like Nabisco off the backs of government contracts, like Palantir, okay, SpaceX. So these organizations were funded, supported and built, turned into major, you know, international companies because of US government contracts. You're absolutely correct. And over and above, small business contracting isn't steadily increasing. We exceeded $130 billion 2019 2020. And that's more than an NFL and the NBA combined. Wow. So for me, I think that it's, I don't think you can ever say enough about government contracting. Because if we get the right people in here, we get and we start educating the kids in the schools, then we can attract top talent into the space into this field, and to continue to help our government improve and do all the wonderful things that it does for its citizens. Yes, and Eric, and working for those companies help that will help a lot to build up their experience so that when they do decide that they want to go into government contracting that they have that experience they work for Fortune 500 company they've seen government contracting working, you know they've seen the intricate parts of it. Okay, let me change the subject. It's a question I've been asking recently that has created some unique answers. Okay, if you've heard my podcast you probably heard me ask this recently on a newer episodes. Name your happiest purchase that you make recently from Amazon. Okay, so listen to this. Okay, I am the Amazon queen. I mean, like, with the pandemic. I absolutely don't go outside. Right. Okay, Amazon delivers everything. Okay. I mean, oh my goodness. I ordered a phone case for my new iPhone 12. I've ordered food, a holder for my, my cell phone and for zoom meetings and everything. There's nothing that I haven't ordered from Amazon. You know, it's interesting is that it's funny to say that I, you know, I moved recently this year, and I've been ordering stuff from Amazon, and I'm so annoyed with all these boxes now I have. Yeah, right. You know, no, how could you possibly be partly because imagine you have to drive your car right into the store. You have to bag it or let them bag it then you have to carry it out put it into the car. And bring the box or the bags into the house, as opposed to letting in your doorstep. Like crazy and they run scared to death because I'm a big dog. But yeah, I mean, it's the best thing since last brand. Right. Well, well, well, you know, it's interesting. We didn't even talk about no Amazon is wonderful. That's why they're, you know, they're worth it. Look at that. See, there you go. No, I mean, look, everything here, my microphone. Look at this thing. My camera, all my lights, everything here. So, now, there you go. You're in the healthcare space what other industries sectors are you in healthcare services. Mainly staffing. Okay, yes, it staffing administrative staffing. Okay. And what kind of things are you looking for now like what kind of what areas are you in what where do you want to go, you know, how do you want to expand your brand and reach. Well, I really, I mean, out of all the things I've done, healthcare has been my bread and butter. That's the one thing that stuck with me with care staffing. Yes, healthcare staffing. And I talked about local attendance, which is temporary positions. That's temporary positions so we sent them all over to all the military treatment facilities to, you know, be a hospitals everywhere. The one thing that I really want to tap into is travel nursing. It's a billion dollar industry and there's only two companies that have half of that. There's two. Yes, there's only two companies that have half of it. And so I really want to work the travel nursing a little more. I had a subcontract with one of the bigger companies doing travel nursing so building up my database on travel nurses and also providing the lodging, because when I was working with the doctors or locals, I would ask the facilities, well, do you have a place they could stay because we have to provide housing, you know, per diem, and all of those things and that's the same case with travel nursing. So I really want to tap into travel nursing. We have a couple of our students in our government program that our staffing and one in particular work with nurses. Really? Yeah. Yeah, and we've done with behavioral health is is huge. That's a huge thing we've done. Yeah, and, and the behavioral health of really, I mean that that's close near and dear to my heart. Yeah, let's talk offline about the behavioral health I have some experience in that area. Okay, sounds like a plan. Yeah, that's good. So you went through your ups and downs you came back around, and you said you love the experience. What do you say to the people listening we say to the new entrepreneur listening that's taken. I don't know if I want to go through that, you know, or sounds like fun right is it fun. Is it not fun. I mean, you know, it depends. Do you think it was worthwhile. Do you think it was worth it all. Yes, I was a stone throw away from my children. My office was like five minutes from my house. My children school was five minutes from my office. I mean like basically I'm being facetious but I could hear my children, like I could get to the school. When I got into my house, I mean I was hands on with my three boys. So, and sometimes I had to put hands on my three boys, but I was definitely hands on. And so, I have no regrets, it got me to raise my three boys, and I think it was worth it even the down was worth it because it brought something out and me, and it taught me that it's not all about business, it's about relationships, it's about family, it's about, you know, just giving back, it's more than just government acting. It's really about those relationships that you build along the way, and what you learn. And like, I wouldn't take it back, I wouldn't take it back. Right. Yeah, I think it's about the experience. And for someone who's interested and thinking about it, you have to do it when it's ready, when the right time for you, you know, I mean you can't decide oh I'm going to do it because Roberta did it and she was successful and she lived through it. Because if you don't live through it, and you know, don't, you know, I don't want you to say well she did it. Everybody's story is different. And so government contracting is awesome, especially for minorities. I think it's a great place for minorities. I am a product of the government of the government's programs, and it's been very good to me and without those programs I wouldn't be here today to speak on this podcast. And that that is one thing that I always tell people this, for me, I have not seen any other programs like this in the world, right in any field in any industry that support small businesses and I've traveled to other countries, and people said, you have what you got a program where like they said, what do you have. And they just don't have this in other countries in the same form shape capacities where they actually promote small businesses promote entrepreneurship. Like you said, even, even if you if it's for just nine years it's still nine years is a long time. You had a lot of opportunity to make whatever kind of money you want to make in that timeframe, right, and to build whatever type of organization you want to build. You, you know, but you had a choice you had the option. Right. And that's what I say, like, even when I was going through it. I said, no one can take that from me, no one can take those nine years from me no one can take the 19 years from me, you know, it wasn't all peaches and cream, but it's my story it's my experience is my journey, and no one can take that from you. Before you started working for the government. Can you tell us like a odd place that you worked up before an odd job, maybe in high school or college. Oh my goodness. Okay, so in high school I had so many great jobs. I get to only say one. We want to we want to make you more normal. Okay, so let me tell you, I worked at Roy Rogers. It's like they sell fried chicken and biscuits and all that. Okay, so I worked at Roy Rogers, and they used to make this strawberry shortcake, and they will put a biscuit at the bottom of it and then ice cream and they will put the strawberries on top it was the best thing ever. So I worked there. I also worked at the grocery store at super fresh. And so I was really good I was a cashier, and I was the best like I can get you to my mind really really fast bag your groceries really really fast. If I ever go to the grocery store I'm always like these people, they just can't do it. And then when it's time to do so check out I'm not that good. I was really really good. So, I did that and then I worked at rib runners on Columbia Pike in Arlington, Virginia. And it was a barbecue place so they would just like deliver your, your ribs to you, you call in, and they would deliver them, as well as you could like just come in it was like, like I said a carry out so you could come into a window. Yes, but the beauty of it is I was in high school when I worked there, and I was running the place like I knew how to cook I knew how to answer the phones I knew how to do so much like, while I was at rib runners so that was like and then I even helped the owner son, open up a bar in, oh man I want to say, Springfield, it was in Springfield. So I helped him with that store, you know showing them how we do everything on the, in the store in Arlington. And then from there, let me tell you where else I work. I worked at the Macy's. I worked at the Macy's City, when it first like opened. Yes, I was in high school there. You know, so I had some pretty good jobs and I was good at everything I did. No, well, and that that's, that's probably why like you said you're still working today you had good work ethic. Thank you. Yeah, no that's true. That's true. If you weren't doing this, what do you think you'd be doing. Well my kids say that I would be a good motivational speaker. It's the funniest part about it, that so my middle son thinks I'm great at motivational speaking. So my youngest son thinks I'm horrible because all I do is give him a motivational speech but I don't help him get anywhere. He's like okay right now what do I do. Now what I do. I kept you up now go do it. I like that he's like you'd be great voices but okay now you got me motivated now what do I do that. Exactly. And my oldest son doesn't want to hear it. He's like, are there ages now. Oh my goodness, I told you I will have to kill you. Well you said one was 24 so I mean, so I mean it's seven and five years between the baby so I'm not telling. And he's 23 so that get that. The youngest is 23. 23. Okay, all right. So people do the math on that. I started my business when I was 30. Nice. But you jumped out you jumped out there. Yeah, I was a little disappointed too. I wanted to be like I started in my 20s I wanted to be able to say that was 30 years old. I mean, it's okay but I wanted to I was like, I missed it. But that's that's I think that's great that you're thinking back then did you did you always want to start a business where I just came out of necessity, like you said. Um, I think I did, but I am like I said I came from a family of eight. And, you know, my mom was able to take care of us. And it was very difficult. It was very difficult but the beauty of it is is that although we were poor. We lived in Arlington, we didn't own our own home, but I was in a good education system. And so I think that helped me out a lot because my mom wasn't in a position to help me with homework. I mean like I never had a parent sit down and help me do my homework. And so I think that the educational system in Arlington was so great because I was in English as a second language so that I can learn to read so that I would be able to read yes, because you didn't have the parent at home. You know, like what I did with my children they were able to read at a very young age, because I was involved. My mom was a homemaker. I mean she took care of the home, we were cleaning, we were well taken care of well fed and all of that and then, you know, you go to school, and you learn. And so, and that so I'm thankful that I was in that environment, because I think that helped. And that's why I say, I feel like I'm a product of the government's programs because you could be in Virginia you could be on section eight. And you could be living right in a neighborhood with other homes and you know no one would know you get to go to the same school so on and so forth. So I think that the government has so many great programs if we take advantage of them. You know that that people that are in inner city programs for the children, education, all those things will get you to the next stage. But I wanted to be a school teacher. The one I wanted to be a school teacher and I told my oldest brother and he told me that no, they don't make enough money. So he shot my dreams down. I told my mom I wanted to be a social worker, and you know social workers will take your children from you so she was like no, like you better not. Right. Like you, you want to be my enemy. You take people children. Yes. So my mother was like, no, you will not be a social worker. So now I hire social workers and I hire all of these professionals to work for me. That's good. That's good. My sister recently said she's always want to be a cafeteria lady. Okay. Yeah, she says she loves it because she get to talk to the kids, like when they come to the lines. And you get like she says, which makes a lot of sense. The cafeteria lady is the only one that knows all the kids. Right. Right. The teachers don't have their classrooms. Right. Sometimes the security guards knows, you know, but I mean really the cafeteria person sees all the kids come through the lines. So she says he interact with all of the kids. Eric, Eric, that's such a beautiful person to be because I still remember the camp. Because the days you don't have money, you know, they let go. Yeah, make sure you get your favorite milk because I didn't like chocolate. I don't like chocolate. So she made sure I got my milk and I didn't have milk and all of those things. And so that act of kindness. It just makes your day so much easier. But I got a top one. I got one to talk for you. Okay. Mr. Custodian at our school was amazing. Like, all the students knew him. Yes, Mr. Porter. He like really took that school. I mean anything that happened, you knew Mr. Porter was going to tell. Well, that's what I brought up. I brought a custodian there. They're also very well known. And then when you get to high school is the security guards that you know, right. And that's the other thing I was like most likely not to succeed. Really, I don't believe that I'm telling you go go look it up. I don't believe it. I would look it up but I know you won't tell me the year so we're going to leave it low. So listen, let's we're wrapping up here. I know the people probably, you know, there, there's still a lot of questions and we only get I only get one hour to talk to you. So I know you've got a bunch of stories to share and tell and we're going to have to save that for another time to come back because I know in that 19 year journey. I mean there's a lot of. And that that we can't possibly cover in this timeframe but again I want to be mindful of your time and also people listening to this shows just share some parting words for folks out there. Any quotes that have helped you or touched you along the way sayings things like that, that again will turn this will be your motivational part to give back. Believe it or not, believe it or not, 50 cents book, the puzzle harder that really touched me he has a lot of quotes like in the beginning of each chapter. And some of them are like, you know, be the first person arrived at the office and I remember when I worked for me, I would even. Oh my you have the book. Well, I have so I have this one has a lot of quotes in it. I have a hustle hard I have that one on audible. But that hustle harder. You read this one. I read some of it. I didn't read the whole book, but but the hustle harder really touched me because he went through the bankruptcy, he went through so much and he was able to overcome all of it and it just really motivated me the other person that motivated me a lot was Perry believe it or not. He said that you know hold on to your business, because your dream and your company is like an answer to somebody else is tied up into somebody else's dream, or somebody else's vision, and their life, and it's true because had Mr being of L&E, and I had his business, I wouldn't be here today. And he in that company, it put out so many entrepreneurs that are government contractors to this day. Big time government contractors, we were young, we were vibrant and we work for him, and he wanted us to become entrepreneurs he didn't hold us back. And like the, you know, retired Colonel, Deborah Scott Thomas, if she didn't have her business if she didn't have that dream, I wouldn't be in a position, I wouldn't have been here. And so she would always say, your success is my success. And so it's true. And so I want to be the Lindbergh beings and Deborah Scott Thomas of the world and help other young entrepreneurs to live their dreams. Whatever that may be, if it's not government contracting whatever it may be, but at least you can look to me and say, Roberto was there she did it, you know, and I can do it too. Wow, that's great. How does the one reach you. Oh, it's www.amora.com. And you can reach me at info at Amora.com. I'm going to share that site real here. If you're leaking it's a m o o r er.com. You got it. You're also on LinkedIn as well. Yes. Okay, and just give us that email address one more time and we'll have it we'll have it on our notes page but just for people that. Okay, it's info at Amora a m o o r er.com. So Amora is Roberta more. So I took the a at the end of Roberta and I put it at the beginning of more, and I took the R from the beginning of Roberta, and I put it at the end of morse that's how you got a more. And I mean, I don't know if we're still recording but I said I'm like Tina Turner, that the only thing I got was my name so this is, this is not my name this is his name. So I kept my name. Grab three more boys. All right. No, that's great. That's great. Now listen, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your story coming on. I would love to get into more details with you on a future episode I really I am. I'm more the guy that's interested in the stories of not just the rise but you know the other side of the coin. Like I said I have my own story that I experienced. And we have a lot of things in common I went through a million dollar lawsuit. I rose it millions of dollars came back down was sued and so. We share a lot of similarities and, and one of the things that Jim Rome says is if you know you're going to get millions of dollars you better become a millionaire and meaning that your mindset your habits or activities and all those other things. And that's what I hear you talk that's what I hear when you hear like the 50 cent talk that's what you are, you're becoming that person that's ready to receive that. And so, you know, that's kind of where we all were at and now we're coming back into that, that second round, so to speak, or some people third round. But yeah, definitely. Like you said, necessity will make allow you to do some really creative things. Yes. And I love that you're all about your creative things that you did. What you know this is your this was your warm up. Oh, and it does take me some time to warm up so thanks for your warm up so thank you so much for coming on today I appreciate it. And thanks for being on here. Thank you so much for having me it was a pleasure. Alright, take care. YouTube.