 How's everyone feeling after lunch? Cobcoma I can relate that's why I was doing some stretches just now If anyone wants to stand up and stretch a little bit. I want to object. In fact, I encourage you to do so Thank you so much for having me. I look forward to sharing a bit about how we can rewild agile Great on us taking the lead leading the change Yeah Wonderful, I was wondering how I should introduce myself because I am not actually an agile practitioner Although I did take my certified scrum master during the height of the lockdown Of you know the pandemic in Singapore The government gave us I think $500 worth of credits on the skills upgrading portal and I went online and thought and saw Just about every listing that was relevant to me had agile in it Agile marketing business agility, then I saw certified scrum master that I thought okay That's normally quite expensive. So if I can get some government money to do it. I will do it. So that is my Background Into the world of agile although working at Contra Fedge with Dave Snowden We have always been you know adjacent to agile and Kenevan is pretty well diffused into the agile world by now and Wondering how I should introduce myself I did I came across this quote in a blog by David Heinemeyer Hansen Who was the founder is the founder of base camp and 37 signals and now he writes a lot and He wrote quite recently 9th February is also hyperlinked on the slides later Is that it's easier to break the paradigms if you're not a meshed in them on the daily? And this is very very important to take note of This is what in complexity science. We call pattern entrainment Usually when you start in a new field on a new job, you don't you so everything is fresh You're looking at it with fresh eyes But as you get as you get entrained into the patterns the daily Routines of work it becomes more and more difficult to break those patterns So I wanted to introduce myself with this quote because I'm not an agile practitioner I don't consider myself an agile practitioner. However, what I've been doing for the past 14 14 years of my career is to help Organizations tackle their complex problems and by that we usually mean humans and human interactions So I'm hoping that what I'll share today will have broad applicability Not just an agile if you're an agile practitioner But also in general in the organizations that you work in and also beyond that possibly What is rewilding back to the topic? Rewilding aims to restore healthy ecosystems by creating wild biodiverse spaces that applies to ecology and this slide Usually it evokes a few laughs and people when they see it because on the left You see the ancestors of all the different pictures you see on the right and I love dogs I will say that she was I'm not my particular favorite. So apologies to anyone who loves Chihuahua's But it's an urban tale in my family of how I was chased by Chihuahua who is this small but absolutely Absolutely deserves the title of ankle biters because that's literally what they do So agile has been domesticated. It's been 20 plus years because the agile manifesto was signed about that long and Actually went back to read extreme programming for instance and other books and What they were talking about in those books is Essentially all about complexity. How do you? How do you look at all those interactions those individuals over processes the customer collaboration all of those human interactions? It is complex in nature And Right now we have these issues in the current state for anyone who attended the workshop day before yesterday called the future backwards We actually had different tables come up with describing the current state of agile and then to look at the future And the make one of the recurring themes I saw was how do we scale agile and agile is in a state of sclerosis, right? It's not as agile as it used to be and these are just some of the issues that we see is not exhaustive And it's not just an agile. I would say in almost any field you can find these issues for instance recipe users People see agile as a recipe they see scrum as a recipe you have and that leads to a certification racket you can have however many letters behind your name and people say okay, maybe you'll be good to hire because you have those letters over your name But the reality is as mentioned just now I took a three-day course and I can put CSM behind my name if I wanted to but actually I don't want to Because I've never actually had the experience of being a scrum coach of the team in an organization And this I just this is just a flavor of some of the issues that we are facing and also I Debate it putting the last point in because that could be slightly the wording could be slightly contentious But I couldn't find a better description religious adherence to your different To all the different, you know flavors and strands of thinking within software development and agile These are just some of the issues in the current state again non-exhaustive and you can find them in many other fields This is where we are at How I'd like to take you through this talk is to actually bring us back to basics I've actually removed the one about working software over documentation because I think that's fairly obvious I wanted to focus on these three y'all remember this. Don't you? Yeah, it's the first thing they teach you in just about any course I wanted to talk about individuals and interactions over processes and tools, but more specifically the individuals and interactions Anyone heard of Kinevin? Kinevin framework. Yeah Kinevin is a Welsh word that is Apparently very difficult to translate into English. I'm not Welsh. I spent four years in the UK specifically Wales It is loosely translated as the place of your multiple belongings What that means is that our? Upringing our ancestry where we grew up Where we went to school where we worked all of this Contributes to our overall identity The anyone recognize the backdrop of the slide Yeah, that's Singapore isn't it? It's so shiny Great photographer managed to capture it like a mirror. However. I wanted to show you this Same vantage point in 1960 the year my mother was born That is her Kinevin And it's also really starting to think that in 1960s when my parents when my parents were born. They were born as British subjects Starting to think that isn't it? I'm not sure. I mean probably quite a few of you here could relate to that as well But so much has changed from there to there But both of these are Kinevins in Singapore the place of your multiple belongings Where do people come from they come to you as fully-formed adults to your teams to your organizations? But somehow that is forgotten the moment they joined we Try to fit people as cards into a machine But we need to take a step back and realize that all of these multiple belongings Effect them and their identity and how they behave. We can't change that but we can try to understand and manage that But the Kinevin framework Quite familiar I think to anyone who's Watched any of our videos is a sense-making framework or decision-making framework. I love Fred's The way he frames it as for problem analysis I think in software dev especially that is a perfect description of what this framework can be used for The seminal article in 2007 in the Harvard Business Review Titles that titles Kinevin as the leaders framework for decision-making And I won't spend too much time on this because I want to give you really really practical tips and tricks for individuals and interactions over processes on the right side you have clear and complicated domains Those are audit systems. That's where you have things like bookkeeping Auditing it follows cause and effect you sense categorized respond data to data or you sense data Analyze it and respond we don't deal with that too much on the left hand side is where life gets really interesting In the chaotic domain No one really should stay there for too long because the energy cost is very high if you think about an emergency or Disaster response of fire the main thing to do to stabilize the system is to first act in it And then you sense all the different streams of data that's coming out and then you respond accordingly That is also the domain of novel practice because things that happen are so chaotic You may not necessarily have past experience to rely on to act in it So humans we really should not stay in chaotic for too long Where most of human interactions take place is in the complex domain. I like to say that when we're outside the workplace we don't Interact with our family and our friends as if we were in the office. We don't have KPIs We don't have objectives. We don't have project plans We just live our lives and we interact with each other as human beings Somehow that is lost the moment we step into an office. That's quite sad That's part of what rewilding is we need to take a step back and remember our humanity So in a complex domain You probe these are like multiple little experiments that you run in parallel Critically you sense the data that's coming out of it and then you respond accordingly and let's not forget that little Space in the middle called a peria or confusion where no one can decide where they're at A lot of people are disagreeing you can stay there or you can choose to move into a complex space so that's kind of an in a nutshell and Also a fantastic visual rendering of Kenevan by Martin Berg Just leave this here. You can look at it later I wanted to move on into customer collaboration to highlight customer collaboration over contract negotiation but really focusing more on collaboration and interactions and These are three methods based on Kenevan and complex system for increasing interactions and enhancing collaborations And this is something by the way, we don't just teach it. We actually use it Internally in our own organization, but also with clients whom we help And all this as you can as you have noticed by now have to do with how do you interact and manage? humans the first one we have is entangled trios Beyond pair programming. What can you do to introduce a third party to it? One thing we have done is to take a senior database or systems architect with a recent graduate from computer science and critically Someone who's trained to talk to users someone who understands users which is actually quite a unicorn in my in my experience It's quite hard to find these people and Then you get them get these trios you can form four to five trios of three And then put them onto the same problem and to see what what each trio comes up with and You'll actually find that every single trio comes up with different takes on the same problem And not just in programming you can do it in organizations as well in product and just about anything you can think of in a social Resilience project that we did in Wales. We actually did transgenerational intergenerational trios We got someone from an older generation with someone from in their grandchild's generation and someone in civil service of government So that they could look at social problems together in a very local context and be able to come up with a stream of solutions So it's not just in organizations or in programming. You can apply this to society as well Next is unarticulated needs mapping has anyone ever met a user who knew what they wanted or at least said they knew what they Wanted I see grins. I see chuckles Reality is very few of us actually know what we want at any given point in time Especially if you're put on the spot in a in a very artificial context Understanding your needs come from daily interactions from actually using a thing of actually being in an environmental context We cannot forget context one way we do unarticulated needs mapping is actually for users to keep a journal A daily journal just like how you might have kept a journal or diary when growing up About but in this case not about your day-to-day life But they are day-to-day interactions in the office or working on a product or across teams Because you can't articulate what you don't know It's not known to you yet But as it comes to you and if you make a note of it daily and then compare across teams You'll be much more effective in gathering and mapping all of those unarticulated needs and then at some point they become not Unarticulated actually become articulated so that you can then work on it say get an entangled trio to work on it Last thing well the third method that we use a lot is distributed ideation and feedback It means we need to increase the cognitive diversity of All the feedback that we're getting so not just one group of users who are quite homogenous But make it more heterogeneous look for different users with different perspectives a very An example we like to use Now distributed ideation and feedback is not the same as crowd sourcing for instance, although you can draw some parallels to that Example we like to use is farmers guessing the weight of a cow at a country fair None of these farmers will get the correct answer, but the average of all their guesses is Close about maybe five percent off from the actual weight of a cow and there are statistical and mathematical reasons for that I won't go into that, but you can look it up online. It is an actual thing What this means for us when we distribute ideation is to get a whole range of ideas From Mavericks from people who really think outside the box rather fit from from just your standard user groups What this does is that you can generate a lot of new ideas You can also throw and tangle trios at those ideas to start to develop and to look at different products Okay, how do we respond to change and I want to you know, you know, you had sessions on change. It's such such a huge topic I also help clients with change management and transformation and Every single time they say, you know, we have the systems We know what we're going to implement for instance SAP actually what we need help with is managing the people managing everyone's thoughts and feelings and emotions that they bring to the workplace Into a change management plan that is what's really tricky for them and What to do we have what we call the frozen to strategy or change has anyone watched frozen one the Disney movie great Frozen to the follow-up Okay, so the true heroine is the one without the magic the younger sister and then she sings the song When it was lost in the woods all I can do is do the next right thing because she doesn't know what to do She's lost in the woods. I hope never to be lost in the woods. Dave Snowden has taken me on mountain treks in Wales I survived but I imagine myself not having a guide not knowing what to do That's really scary, but all I could do to survive is to do the next right thing You really have to feel your way around when you want to respond to change over following a plan What you need to do is find what we call an adjacent possible What is the next most possible thing I can do for change and that answer is not Doesn't come to you in an hour It comes from interactions it comes from to go back to the previous slide on those methods It comes from working with entangled trios. It comes from getting distributed ideation and feedback That is how you can start to look for the adjacent possible and do the next right thing and It's extremely agile You have to be to adapt to change We have some heuristics for managing complexity. If you remember chefs versus recipe uses The first thing you can do is to optimize for granularity So Kent Beck wrote in extreme programming and I actually went and reread the book What's the smallest possible thing that could work? How do you decompose things into the smallest possible units that are coherent and then to recombine them Don't repeat not repeating them or aggregating those small things, but recombine them It is in the recombination of these small things that you find new patterns and break the old ones You also need to disintermediate decision-making what that means is to remove layers of interpretation and mediation from decision-makers to the users and the raw data which is usually in this case users and Then you need to distribute cognition It's quite similar to distributor ideation Get lots of people from different backgrounds to look at the same data in parallel without Consultation that's a very important thing so that they can give you a whole range of perspectives And you know that they have not talked to each other or colluded So I wanted to recap what can rewilding do for agile the concept of Taking us back to the roots. I read an article just a few days ago from in the Guardian and This man now 40 years old but as a boy in the south of England used to do free diving in the sea And when he was free diving as a boy It was the sea was the seabed was full of kelp and kelp is extremely important for marine biodiversity But now at his age at 40 that has mostly been dredged up from fishing trawlers And it's really really sad because it means that the sea is no longer as healthy as it used to be a marine life It's no longer as healthy as it used to be and what he has been doing in his garage on his own time And he's just an NHS technician. So he's not really very rich He is trying to breed algae so that he can go plant them in the seabed during winter Free diving from the shore in winter that that is to be applauded What he's doing is to rewild the seabed so that he can restore balance to the ecosystem Okay So what this means for agile is that we we need to restore these ecosystems to the point where they can take care of themselves We need to reconnect with who or what matters that means with each other and with our stories It also represents hope for the future of agile. I'm not gonna stand here and say that we know what the solution to Scaling agile is I mean we have saved when we have other Frameworks for that what it means that is that if we can start If we can start to look at the granularity of agile break things down to the lowest possible coherent unit How can we recombine that? How can we look at new ways of scaling? How can we get more in touch with raw data with user stories so that we can make better decisions faster? How can we get more diverse perspectives so that we don't fall into groupthink? All of these heuristics all of that can help us rewild agile and that's the end It's 30 minutes I kept it quite brief because I wanted to leave some time about 15 minutes or so for questions because I know that that's quite a Bit of material and I think you might have quite a few questions. So I wanted to leave this time open for that Any questions thoughts comments? Thank you Jules for the great presentation When you speak about the three heuristics, I can understand the This is a This intermediate decision-making I can imagine that can you give some examples of distribute cognition and Optimizing for granularity that way I understand if what you're saying is what I could I should interpret? absolutely I'll start with this Immediating decision-making this comes with a health warning because you are playing with power dynamics And we have to accept that power dynamics as part of life part of organizational Yeah, just part of organizations, but Not an agile example, which I think hopefully I will make the point better is that we were working on a project With Singapore government and we were looking at social resilience. We were looking at how can we Strengthen the fabric of the nation. I think every government is interested in that But there are so many diverse perspectives. We're all voters. We're all citizens. We all have a say How can we manage all of that? How can we get decision makers? In this case the policymakers in touch with the stories that people are actually telling each other and sharing on the street This is what we mean by this intermediation intermediation the mediation usually happens when people write policy papers When they put forward and lobby what you know a pet project that they want But if leaders if decision makers are able to interact directly with the people That they are serving or the people that we're building products for That is how we can make better decisions faster and just a caveat We're not saying that mediation doesn't have its place Middle management exists for a very good reason. They are the engine that drives things forward But in many cases there is a lot of bottlenecks and also people start to develop their own pet projects and their own Behaviors and that can really start to constrain what a decision maker or leader sees So if a leader wants to disrupt patterns and find out what's really going on go straight to the raw data Go talk to some users. Go talk to some citizens That's an example of this intermediating decision-making and as I said not just in agile Across organizations Anywhere in life, I would say for distributing cognition Again to give another non-agile example in an organization How do we find those mavericks? How can we find those bright spots the people that always think out of the box in many cases in most organizations? They have to hide themselves if they want promotions if they want to move through the ranks They you very quickly find out that if you stand out like a sore thumb You can be very very easily smacked down again, but we need those people These are the people with all the ideas that will help us look at things in a different way. How can you find them? Right. What what how can you create conditions that feel safe for these people to make their views known and not just to give An entire platform just to these people this group of people But also to let to let them surface naturally in the entire environment That's what distributing the cognition means And for optimizing for granularity So this is something we do internally quite a bit with all the different methods that we have you had a taste of future backwards we have knowledge mapping and Decision mapping as other of our methods and we have a knowledge management method called ashen Well, isn't actually an acronym it stands for artifacts skills heuristics experience and natural talent Put together ashen and these five things Represent what is naturally available in an organization? What are the artifacts like written documents archives? What are the skills that you have in your workforce? What are the heuristics that you have developed in your organization at the time? What is the experience levels of different people and what are the natural talents that are emerging if you look at all of those? And you break those down into their lowest coherent unit. You can start to combine and say, ah, okay We have actually quite a high level of Natural talent, but they don't really have enough experience. What can we do to raise that experience? Or we have a lot of artifacts we have Tons of storage of all these archives. Okay, and maybe I think what we're lacking is experience So how can you break those things down into the lowest coherent unit and then recombine? So that is an example of granularity. I Hope to answer your question I have a question about managing complexity I At least I'm getting this initial sense that for some of these things you'd need a lot of At least a lot of people doing a lot of things simultaneously to or Generating a lot of data so that you can have better decision-making What would you suggest for say a smallish team of say ten people? Three technologists to product people. I mean at those small numbers you don't really have But you only have so many people with so much background. How do you? Try and implement some of this with a small team Good question. We do work with small teams and then groups of small teams interestingly, I Actually think that sometimes the smaller the group the more complexity there is It's sometimes ease and you know, this is just my personal opinion It's sometimes easier to look at a larger system and be able to detect patterns of what's happening Then for a very smaller team where everyone knows everyone That has its own layer of complexity, which I'll be just be very frank. No one has cracked a code for that No, but but there are ways to manage it because in complexity We make the argument that it's more important to manage and influence the interactions between Human beings then to try to change or manage the human beings themselves This goes back to Kenevan up the place of our multiple belongings We really cannot hope to change people fundamentally for who they are and at some level we have to accept that that is what it is However, we can change the environment in which they interact We can change the way they interact how often or maybe they need way more interaction Also allowing them to run allowing but encouraging them to keep those daily journals of their frustrations No, for instance a test this journal will look very different from a product manager's journal However, they are all looking at the same problem or the same system or the same product that they're working on Looking at all those diverse perspectives, but without them talking to each other Which is what keeping a journal is about allows you then let's say if you are you know Scrum master or coach to then look at this look at this the the system of that team as a whole to be To be able to understand what you should do next that is the next possible thing you could do understood and Obviously, you'd have to build an environment in which they feel comfortable sharing journal with you without fear of Absolutely, absolutely Yes fear of recrimination fear of standing out is definitely huge problem Which is why we recommend keeping anonymous journals. However, of course in a small team You would know who they are, but that is less important than people feeling comfortable Journaling, you know their daily experiences Thanks, thanks for your amazing presentation. I just have one question about you know encouraging increasing interactions and enhancing collaboration the first thing that you spoke about is Trials or trios, you know entangles entangled trios. How critical is having that entangles cryos trios in building that? Yeah, so how do you go about creating this trios number one and You also mentioned about divers Divers trios how how important is to how do you you know build this diversity in building this trios? Okay, and what's your experience experimenting with it and what's the result that you got out of? Building this trios. Okay, great question The rule of thumb the heuristic for creating trios is that they cannot come from the same background Each of the three people cannot come from the same background. So you cannot have three system architects in a trio You cannot have three testers in a trio. They have to come from different backgrounds in this case. I'm using an organizational or software development Example I gave the example in that government project We ran in Wales where we had someone from an older generation someone from a much younger to at least two generations down And then a civil servant Okay, so it really has to be different because what we need is those different perspectives to work on the same problem so in in programming it would be as mentioned a systems architect, but much more experienced someone who has essentially Decades under their belt with a recent graduate From computer science and then a user who is not a techie It has to be from three different backgrounds for an entangled trio to work I hope that was clear and your second question was about the ideation Also, it's about building the diversity in the trail and You made the statement that is somebody who's more experienced can influence the lesser experienced person somebody who's just fresh His point of view can be completely influenced by the person with a lot of experience and you know, maybe some you know Authority in a specific topic How do you balance the different perspectives in a trail to make sure that it is not biased with the most powerful person in the trail Good question. You can never predict or plan for it. What you need to do is to monitor it Because you can't predict how Three people will interact when you put them together. You you have a rough idea Let's say if you already broadly know them and their backgrounds You have a rough idea of how they their personalities may or may not clash That's a very important thing to look at But you have to just start by putting three people together and Seeing how it goes and if it really proves to be a problem Then you may have to disrupt that and change the trio a bit But if you have some faith in people and let them work out their problems It generally works out because also they are from three very different backgrounds Okay, thank you Do you have some examples an agile of teams that have been rewilded successively at this point Sorry, could you repeat that you have some examples of teams that have rewilded agile successfully at this point Not quite this brand the rewilding brand that we came up with this about a year and a half old So we're still working on it in terms of examples, but I'll definitely report that I will say for entangled trios We are work. We are using it on ourselves within our organization. So for instance, we have a marketing trio We take three people from different backgrounds Right someone you know one of one of the team is from finance and admin and you say what what does it have to do with marketing? No, we actually are putting them together so that can give us their perspectives from a finance point of view But how marketing could be done or done better same with product trios, etc within our organization Hi, my name is so honey and my question is There definitely is a cost associated with rewilding agile in the form of maybe cost time skill building I want to understand your thoughts or perspective on how do we manage those risks? Very very good question. We are in an age of budget constraints and expect we are expected to do more things with less money or resources Unfortunately, not just in agile but everywhere else. I would say that yes, the outlay appears to be Higher than say sending someone on a three-day course however, nothing Sustainable ever comes that easily or perceived to be that cheap and but if we want to rewild agile and to Start to and to remember where it came from then it's an outlay that we have to take on I mean that there is the concept of there is the concept of sacrifice some sacrifices have to be made and To use the example of recipe users and chefs. I don't consider myself a chef. I Consider myself sorry a little more than a recipe user. However, and that's because Sorry, but there was that slide about recipe users and chefs because my mother trained me how to cook But she didn't start me off with standing in front of a walk Also an eight-year-old nine-year-old should not stand in front of a hot Chinese walk. I Started off by doing prep right Shelling prawns. I still hate shelling prawns to this day, but I had to start from there I had to understand the basics of food preparation. I had to understand ingredients I had to understand all these building blocks of cooking before I was considered competent to first of all use her knife And to use that beloved walk That and that that that the cost associated with that that training apprenticeship model is not cheap It's the development of a human being But this is also this also, you know harks back to how Nowadays humans and organizations are mostly treated as cults in the machine because it's seen as being more cost efficient But actually what is the true cost of that you have to stop and think are we developing humans to be who they could be if They became chefs and not just recipe users because a good scrum master doesn't just take a good scrum master If you see them, isn't someone who's taken the three-day course and then suddenly they know exactly what to do You have to earn those stripes. You have to be in the thick of it. You have to be working with your teams and That is not easy That is really not easy, but there's no other way to rewild edge on to take us back to our roots without that without that That's my personal opinion. Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions? We're just about 45 minutes. I think yes Any questions? Thoughts comments feedback I was really tickled when the rest said I think yesterday. Oh, no, maybe on the first day and the opening remarks Go hard on the first-time speakers Hi a good topic and very different way of doing the things So so far you said that there are no Case study as such that you have because it's still in progress But you have you know history of what? The rewilding of a child yet, but have you seen any anti-patterns so far of what all things that you have implemented? At least let's say for diverse trios Combining three people together like are there any anti-patterns anti sorry anti-patterns Anti-patterns. Yeah. Oh, I love this question anti-patterns Huh, actually, no, I would say that Patterns are being broken. Is that what you mean by anti-patterns? Yeah, so somebody said that like Among three Somebody could be senior and then they can dominate that that could be one Something similar Like we know for pair programming again the senior developer and the junior developer that that can happen now We are including one more person here so Of course the complexity increases But then some somewhere similar on the similar lines. Have you seen? Things breaking more rather than you know building effectively I Think so far when we seen one example of a trio not working out But that was also because there were really long-standing personality issues to begin with and It was very difficult in hindsight to see how that trio could ever have worked in the first place So that's why I say you need to be very conscious of the personalities of any histories before you start to put trios together However, you can depersonalize a Trio because you're getting people together to work on a problem or a product So hopefully it becomes less about the personality clashes or tensions that is about working together towards a common goal Would you say that a driver's trio is basically a parenting? Parenting yeah, because you yourself said that your mother actually Taught you and then well, that's more recipe users and chefs. That is the apprenticeship model Hopefully not parenting This station people's you know adult lives. It's more about mentorship and guidance For recipe recipe users versus chefs however for trios No, actually, there's very very light monitoring of what goes on the proof is in the pudding as the English saying goes What they cut what the trios come up with will be the proof of how it's working one final question Okay, one more Thank you So I really like the frozen to strategy, but can you give a few examples? Like in your work outside software Like how do you go about identifying the next right thing to do and then as a story a short story on that would be nice Okay How to identify the next right thing to do? Let me just get this so the image that you see is actually from Data a data set from our sense maker software So I think I've mentioned before that at a connevin company all of our workshop methods and ideas are open source on our wiki So you can for instance take future backwards and run it on your own teams. However, we do Develop our own proprietary software So we know a little bit about software development and the dots that you are seeing are actually stories that people have shared Hey, we have we have anonymized The entire data set and you won't see any data behind it You won't see any stories behind it anyway, but each dot represents a story and The the color gradients are actually where the clusters are forming Right and all of this is based on the way that people index or tag their own stories That then gives us the calculations for how we can put it on an x y axis for instance so I don't think this points, but if you look here There's a cluster and we can say, okay, what is actually our ideal state whatever your x y axis is for instance time For off delivery versus cost of delivery So if you imagine that's your x y axis on the top right There's not a good place to be where you have a lot of time and a lot of costs associated with delivery This would be the most ideal wouldn't it but we're never here You can you know and really depending on your organization you have to decide okay Where is our ideal state for cost and time of delivery? So maybe somewhere in the middle some put it there, but okay, what we can see From the stories that people are telling is that they feel that we are set somewhere around here But that's too far towards a lot of time and a lot of cost of delivery Ideally we should be here But that's too far to go from there So what's the next right thing we can do to shift the pattern so that more stories are being told and shifted here And again, you can see it's very very contextual You have to actually look at the stories that people are telling do more interviews To understand okay, so let's run those multiple experiments and see if after three months or even two months If the story start to shift to our ideal state here This is what we mean by looking for the next right thing finding that adjacent possible and doing the next right thing Here we may never achieve it and we have to be okay with that But here's more achievable. So what can we do to shift more stories not just from you know internal users? Sorry from internally and from users also from customers