 As Anambara elections draw closer, Governorship candidates and Eagle Elders for him urge the federal government to get military out of the south-east. And on the collapsed building in Ikui, death tolls still under rise as Governor Songulu visits. This is Plus Politics, I am Mary Anacor. Candidates for Saturday's Governorship elections in Anambara state have spoken with one voice on the security or insecurity threatening the polls and urged the federal government to urgently demilitarize the south-east zone and stem the heightened tension between the security agencies and the utes. In the same vein, the Chairman, Independent National Electoral Commission Professor Makmoud Yakubu has restated that the election in Anambara state must hold. We're joining us to discuss this are Analyst Sonny Maduka, Francis Chilaka and Security Consultant, Best Man Jumbundzi. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you Mary. Alright, I'm going to start with you Best Man because you obviously are a security person and one of the major problems or one of the reasons why many concerns have come from Anambara and without Anambara is because of the insecurity in the land. But I'd like to ask you, for someone who's looking from the outside in and all of the reports that we've been hearing, what do you think is the reason for the insecurity in Anambara state? We've heard the candidates for the elections, especially the former central bank governor, saying that the insecurity in the state is politically motivated. Is that what you think? Oh, remember I was on plus TV earlier in the year and I made a statement and I said, when the elites, the leaders, those who should know in South Eastern Nigeria, when they were obligated their responsibilities to non-state actors and when they were supposed to oppose the activities of these non-state actors, they all kept quiet and keeping quiet then has metamorphosed into what we have now. So it is a function of both political and well to a large extent, there might be some substance in the agitations. But by and large, I think it is the failure of the elites to control the narratives in the Southeast that have led to where we are today. You're from the Southeast, if I'm not mistaken. And you're saying that this is mostly failure of the elites, not necessarily the leaders but the elites, which means that you're talking about, it cuts across whether those who are holding power or not, the leaders of thought, the traditional leaders and the government. It's cut across. I made an example on the paper I submitted recently. I said the difference in the Southwest is that the Southwestern elites will not abdicate their space for non-state actors to decide or to shape their narratives when suddenly it will start his own. The people that mattered in the Southwest shut him down and they assured he didn't dictate their narratives. But in the Southeast, most of the elites were playing the whole street. Most of them were looking for political elements. Most of us kept quiet and it has snowballed into what we have today. Like I said earlier too, there will be some element of substance in the agitations but it will never work where you leave the space for non-state actors. And that's the consequence that we have today. Talking about substance here before I go to others, the substance that you're referring to in the agitations, one of the reasons why they have been continuously sat at home is because they're saying, iPop, that their leader needs to be released unconditionally. Now there are other issues that might also have substance, I guess, which is that they have been getting the short end of the stick. They have not necessarily been listened to. They've not been catered to as every other part of the country has been catered to or listened to. And I'm going to ask you again, as a security person, in dealing with these issues, whether it be political or not, how well has the government, not just the state governors, but even the federal government dealt with this issue as opposed to the federal might that we see every other day? Really, the issue of release of non-state actors unconditionally might not just be realistic. Because what some of us will have to take for is the free and fair trial. A trial that is free and fair does not manipulate it. Who's to determine the fairness and the fairness of the trial? Because that, again, is something that needs to be called to question. Can we truly, looking at how the judiciary, how a bit wonky our judicial system has become and how much influence the executive has on the judiciary, can the common person have trust and hope in that wonky system? Well, one of those who believes that Nigerian judiciary to a large extent is the same. Yeah, the corruption everywhere, we have corruption in every strata of Nigerian social, political, economic life. But you see, judiciary to a large extent, I'm not saying they are perfect, I'm not saying they are where they ought to be, but to a large extent they've maintained a level of appreciation that's probably magnified in other sectors. Now again, when you say release somebody unconditionally, are we setting the right precedence? Now, it didn't start with this government. We've had agitations all over, even from Abbas on job. When Gani Adams was doing his own in the southwest, how about a shoot at sites? Any OPC person? It doesn't make you write, but at least we involved. And the failure of government, the failure of institutions, way back is what I'm feeling today. And the governments, yeah, I might not give a pass mark to this government on how they've handled the issue of agitations, national, all these ethnic nationalities. But to a large extent, I think they should let justice take its course and we cannot abdicate the space to non-state actors. Now I just mark the end of the nation. Okay. Dr. Madagaw, I'm interested in where Besman dropped it off. He's saying, he's talked about abdication of responsibility. He's talked about the fact that we can still depend on the judiciary to have a free and painless case for Nambi Kano. But that's not necessarily the crux of the matter. An election is coming up in a few days and all the candidates who are running for office, traditional leaders and those in the state are saying, we do not want the level of security, especially the soldiers. We want them to be taken out from the South East so that we can have free, fair, incredible elections. What should take on this? Okay. I think the problem is, as I just pointed out, the issue that the foundation of this problem, we have to look at the foundation. It's not about the state actors. I think we're having connection issues with you. So I'm going to go to Mr. Chilaka. Just as I asked the question, can we trust the process in the case of Nambi Kano, but also the people in the South East are saying, we do not want the army. It's an election. The police is enough. We've seen how many thousands of policemen have been already posted to the South East, especially to Anambara state and knowing that the election is on Saturday. But we've also seen videos of people, a particular candidate who was live on television and we were hearing gunshots go off. We've also seen all kinds of things happen in Anambara. Should the federal government be risking that? I think let me start with the issue of Nambi Kano and the position of the Igbo leaders and the religious leaders asking for unconditional relief. We need to tell ourselves the truth. I do not believe in it to be shared and to do anything good because one, and I don't even believe in the government doing anything good because you need to ask yourself, why wasn't Nambi Kano brought back into the country? We need to find, we need to look at issues politically where they are. How was he brought back into the country? If the way was smuggled back into the country, does it show you that the government is ready to give justice to him? That is on one side. On the side of the election, I am really, really, I must say that I'm really, really shocked and I'm very, very unhappy that the government has decided to deploy this number of soldiers, police, security personnel just to Anambara State. You know what is going to play out? I call the same, sit at home. Federal government is saying there's going to be an election. Now, tell me, who would come out with this number of security personnel? Who would come out to come and vote? Well, most of us have said that the elections will hold and that they're guaranteeing some level of sanity and safety. They're guaranteeing that people can come out and vote. I want to correct something. iPop has not necessarily said that everybody should sit at home. iPop is saying they as a group will sit at home. But whoever wants to go out and vote on that day can go out and vote. So really, they're not standing in the way of voters, are they? Already, you know that there is fear in the South East. People are already afraid because we're all here every now and then it's a fight between the police or the army or the unknown gunmen. So what is the guarantee, you know, when you ask people to come out and vote? You know, what is the guarantee? When nobody has been able to arrest this so-called unknown gunmen? And when we allow them, when the government allows them to open, you know, it is after they finish operating that you not see the security agencies coming out. So it's not just coming out to say come out and vote. People need to be assured that there is no security. And then on the other hand, with the number of, like I keep saying, the number of policemen out there and soldiers, it can also be difficult for people to come out. People are already scared. I didn't want to wait. I think I have already said it from day one that the issue in the South East is an issue for dialogue. I had expected that before these elections that the federal government would have entered into dialogue with all agreed parties to find a way out. But it appears that the federal government is insisting on, you know, being forceful about it. So the question is, if tomorrow, even Saturday, you know, answer bullets going up in the sky and all of that, who would now be the one to protect the people? Now, just as you said, it is actually fear that the city at home could harm, you know, the election via voter apathy. But then the Southeast Monarchs and religious leaders had on Monday called for the release of Namdi Kanu. They also asked for dialogue and adoption of political solution to resolve the issue. But it's Wednesday. We have Thursday, Friday, and then it's Saturday. If the federal government and the state government were interested in a resolution of sorts, could that have not been done before now? And again, why has it taken so long for all parties concerned to come to a table to deal with this issue? If this is the resolution that the leaders in the Southeast have come up with, including the governors, there's been a joint statement by all the candidates, by the way, asking for demilitarization. But why has it taken so long close to the eve of almost the eve of elections? Well, I would say this to you. I think that a lot of people have thought that elections were not vote, considering the hostility to vote in the state. And when it dawn on everybody that elections were vote, we should look for ways to protect the lives and properties of those who would come to exercise their civic rights. And I think that it's better late than never. The decision to ask for negotiation, the decision to ask for a roundtable discussion is not too late. The windows are still open, and I implore the state government and the federal government to take advantage of that. I hope we have him back now. Yes, great. Now, I want to go to other issues that have been raised in this communicate by not just the joint letter by the candidates, but of course the leaders in the southeast. They're talking about the fact that they've heard addressing the use in the southeast. They've said that they've heard the cries of the young people, but they're urging them that those issues will be addressed. They will come out en masse and vote peacefully and in an oddly manner and then of course hoping that the issues that they have raised will be dealt with. Now, I'm not in any way saying that the young people in the southeast should not listen to their elders, but I'm asking, what's the certainty? Again, I just asked Chilaka the question judging from the time that this has been going on, if there was a willingness on the path of governments both at the federal and state levels to deal with this issue, could it have not been dealt with before now, but so what is the guarantee that this is not just lip service to the young people so that elections can hold, but when the elections are over, is there anything that these young people can hold on to? Will there be a change of attitude towards the people in the southeast? Will they be listened to? Well, let me just start with what Francis said. The problem in the south is that they hadn't had push-off leaders in the federal government. Just as yesterday OBJ came up and said, look, you need to listen to this young man. The monarch, some of the governors have even come out to say, look, it's time to listen to this man. What we are seeing in Anambra is nothing but an issue of dominance, military dominance. You see, you don't see anybody coming out except few people who just manage to come out because the tension there is much. How can you put up 40,000 police people in a state? 260 are more cars for a election. Military everywhere. How can you come out? Most of us that are here are telling our people, look, be careful. I wanted to travel. As somebody said, don't travel. This is the problem of the nation in the east. And the best way to solve this problem is not by a military might or telling people that we can dominate you, we can deal with you. And that is what the federal government is doing. This is a time for us to have a sovereign pressure in thinking. Thinking deeper. How do we dialogue with people? How do we see that human beings matter? Of course, you know, where people can be saying we will dominate you, we will deal with human life matters. And if we know that, then we don't need to do this dominance in miniaturism. This is democracy for crisis. This is not a military dictatorship era. But one we are seeing now. But Doctor, this is not the first time that we've seen soldiers deployed for elections. This has happened consistently under this administration. So this is not the first time. So why are we crying foul now that is happening in Anambra? We must start from the time to start talking about the abnormalities. The absurdity in this regime is becoming something that you can't even fathom. For instance, soldiers, as far as I'm concerned, are only on the list, whether it's a critical breach, understandably. But today, what we see is a military analysis to quell internal crisis, which is not supposed to be. That's why we have policemen. So now you are bringing a ministry, you are bringing our workers, you are bringing every type of security into one state. It is, believe me, nobody will come out. Mosul, it has no credence. When you talk about people that people will respect, they used to will not respect Mosul, because to them, Mosul has betrayed them. When they pass it, they have a little bit of credence. It's empty. And that is why I am still advocating. Many of us are talking, please, whatever is going to take the further government. Come out of your high house. Discuss with people. Let's talk. There's nothing wrong in talking. A lot of people are saying certain things. For instance, let me give you an instance. Some people, people, some people men people, some people destroy people. And at the end of it, they are giving, what do you call it, they are giving freedom. They are giving, they are calling the pen time. And they are giving incentives. How on earth can you justify that as somebody who is talking? And you are judging that person. It's injustice. Let's go to the round table. Let's know what is wrong with our country. Because as I said, today, my brother, my sister, we're having a problem at our hand. And at Lambra State, it's a test case. And I'm telling you that the people that will come out that day to vote are only coming for their own whatever, you know, your life is at stake. Because the military presence there alone is enough to destroy people for coming out to vote. But it's the military not there. I might be wrong. Again, perception is key in issues like this. The military supposedly is there to protect people, to make sure, to keep the peace, to make sure that these unknown gunmen and these perpetrators of violence do not take over or hijack the elections, I'm guessing. And so is the police to keep the peace, should that not be an assurance of sorts for people to come out and vote on mass, at least as an assurance? No, no, no. In fact, the presence of military right from the beginning without shouting that there's a way to democratize the Southeast. The presence of Southeast is even why we're having this seat at home. Because we've discovered that many people, when they go out, they end up being jailed or being arrested and called and let them either have hope or it's here. Many of the youth are in the jail today. So the best option, the best strategy that I hope came out with, oh look, instead of our youth being killed or arrested or whatever, let's sit at home. Sit at home is a strategy. It's equal to tell you that the presence of military is not welcoming. Isn't that a flawed strategy? You are saying in one breath that you want to have free for credible elections that you can choose leaders that would be able to reflect what you want and the gains that you want in the future. But then you want to stay at home and not come out to vote. So who's to say that that election may not be hijacked by the same politicians who you do not want to come back to office? Is that not a flawed strategy? From the beginning, there's already flaws in there because what you're seeing, if you look at from your opening statement, the political-motivated idea. So what we are seeing today are military men from the federal government. And that's why they are muscling everybody because they have probably a candidate they want to vote in. That's what I'm seeing. If you want to put up a credible election, everybody should be free. There should not be tension, but today there's tension everywhere. If the Anambarians stay at home, have they not helped? If what you're saying is anything to go by, you have helped to put the last nail in the coffin because that's what supposedly the politician wants. If you're saying somebody wants to hijack the elections for a particular political party, then if everybody stays at home, of course you give them room to win. Why not come out and exercise your franchise? This is my question. No, look, look, look. There's going to be clear cards, open and free fair elections. As of today, you know, when you bring in the military, you are no more bringing fairness to it. When you bring in anything that will give tension to civilians that are going to vote, you are no more bringing fairness to it. So these are the issues from the foundation that's falseness now. Let's give this idea about election a free will. Let police be in charge. But bringing in the military, you know what 260 or more car means. If you use that in a situation for any of this, it's not a state that we're having problem. I think most of what we're talking about bandits will have gone. You're bringing this if we place that people say, look, we are going to see that it's not a world zone. So that's the problem. There's already falsehood and there's already foundational falsehood in whatever we want to deduce because there's already a conspiracy theory that somebody wants to use this to intimidate others so that they will be a judge, the winner, come after the 60 November elections. Okay. Let me move to back to best man. You've heard what all the guests are talking about. Everybody seems to be saying that the presence of the military is a deterrent of sorts, not necessarily to the unknown government, but even the voters themselves. So it's a few days to elections. How do you deal? How do we deal with the issue of voter apathy vis-a-vis, you know, the militarization or the militarization of a number of states? I was listening to Mr. Chilaka and I could sense a feeling of populism and I'm trying to be, I mean, to be to the gallery as it is. I have been involved several in polling in elections in Nigeria, both as observer, as well as on the starting level. Even of two things. Even there is no election in Edinburgh postponed for dialogue, for there to be a more conducive environment. What can stay happen tonight? What can I say announced tonight that we're postponing the election by two, three weeks to give for much if the election must hold. I even believe the security on ground are not enough. I remember in the state during the election, the people were saying they wouldn't come out to vote. But when they saw the number of security personnel, police, soldiers, civil defense and others, it gave them confidence to come out. It is either the alumni election is postponed for this dialogue that we talk about or they should even deploy more security to give the people confidence to step out and vote. Because this, the presence of the military, the presence of the police, the presence of security apparatus is the only guarantee that will make anybody step out to want to vote. So, and you see, when people make a decision that to the war zone, for example, it doesn't follow. Don't forget, Niger State alone is bigger than the one on southeast put together. Don't forget, Borneo alone is bigger than the one on southeast put together. I will deploy more military men to the north than any part of the country in the last 10 years. So, let's be honest. I agree totally in dialogue and that the dialogue that failed to happen before also contributed to where we are now. So, if you are going to just wake up tonight and say, following ideas, we postpone this election by two or three weeks to allow for further engagement with the agitated people or they should even send more personnel to Anambua if the election is going to hold on Saturday. There are so many people that are not in Anambua today because they feel they are not secure because of the security person, they are not even enough. Okay. Quickly, because we're out of time, I'm going to give Francis and Dr. Madukah just quickly a minute to just wrap this up. Francis Bestman is saying that you're playing to the gallery. Well, he talked about the Kitih State and I got the last one and I would keep asking the kind of situation in the Kitih State as I've been, is it the kind of situation in Anambua today? I don't know when last you went to the north southeast and I think it's when people talk about the southeast, let them just don't sit down somewhere and talk about southeast. Go to the southeast and find out what is happening there. You cannot walk on the street of the southeast today as in Nigeria. You cannot dress up properly and be walking and driving your car very well in the southeast, especially Anambua and New York State. It is hot. So all they're saying is that when you militarize the whole environment, you are also creating more fear in the minds of the people. Okay. In other words, we're saying right now that the Nigeria Police is incapable of internal security. But that's why you have the army. Isn't that why you have the army? If you say the police is incapable, that's why you have the army. You know that the crisis we have that has gone out in the southeast was caused by the army. When they started their AK dance and all the dance they went to do in the southeast, this is where the problem started. We must stress ourselves back to where the problem started in order to find the solution. All right. Dr. Madagart, your last two cents, please. Yeah, because I want to take on and say, please, sorry. I was in the east just a few weeks ago and I wish you, you didn't see what we saw and see how our youths are being handled, arrested. You cannot wear black and black in the south. You cannot wear yellow and yellow. There are some colors you cannot wear and they will just arrest you. Every pole in the southeast is manned by many three. So the scenario you presented in Akiti is very, very different because when you're talking about Akiti, there was no war then. As of today, let me tell you, there's war in south. It's whether you want to believe it or not. And you cannot fight war with war. Dialogue is what we can use to down the tension. Just like you said, I think the third argument can still extend this election period so that dialogue will be, you know, taken into consideration. Thank you very much. All right. I want to say thank you, Dr. Obe, Sonny Madukai. I beg your pardon, Francis Chilaca and of course, best man, John Bonze. Thank you very much for speaking with us. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Yes, we keep our fingers crossed and look forward to September, November, the 7th in Anambra State. Hopefully all things go well, but we'll take a quick break and when we return, we'll be analyzing the Koi building collapse as we speak. Dead bodies are still being brought out from under that rubble. Stay with us.