 Good morning and welcome to this week's edition of Encompass Live. I'm Emily Nimsacand here at the Nebraska Library Commission filling in for your regular host, Krista Burns. Encompass Live is the Nebraska Library Commission's weekly online event. It covers a variety of library activities and topics presented by NLC staff sometimes or sometimes guest speakers like we have today. These one-hour sessions are free and they're offered every Wednesday at 10 a.m. central time and they include things like presentations, interviews, book reviews, web tours, many training sessions, Q&A sessions, basically they cover a lot of different things. Today, as I mentioned, we do have a guest speaker, Sally Gibson from Creighton University is here to talk to us about letting the patron drive. Take it away, Sally. All right. Thank you, Emily. Hi. As Emily mentioned, I'm Sally Gibson. I'm head of technical services at the Reinhard Alumni Library at Creighton University. The Reinhard University has three libraries and the Reinhard is the undergraduate and graduate school. We'll deal primarily with the arts and sciences and the business students and so we decided to start with demand-driven acquisitions and patron-driven acquisitions. I hope many of you are familiar with those terms. We began in May 2011 and so I kind of want to give you an update, an overview of why we decided to try this, how it's going, what our concerns are, and where we're hoping to go in the future. So, I'll start with, all right, let me start with collection development at the Reinhard Library. And we have our book budget that we divide between the departments and the library and 75% of that book budget is given to the various departments in the arts and sciences and business. The faculty are the main selectors for our collection and they have multiple approaches to selecting materials for the library. Some departments gather and submit their orders at the end of the deadline which we give them for March and so they'll do nothing throughout the year and then we'll just get all their orders towards the end of the year. Others will work throughout the year and submit orders and kind of continually build the collection as the academic year is going on. Others will just send over the publisher catalog and tell us, order everything that's in here which as you know, it really shows that they thought about the process and things like that. So, it's up to the librarians to kind of fill in the gaps, look for the multidisciplinary titles they're getting lost, kind of look for introductory materials. We have a collection about my librarian who noticed that for the foreign language materials no one was really going through and getting basic grammar books on those various foreign languages they were able to fill in there and we also kind of try to look for things on current events and current awareness so that our collections up to date. Now the faculty, many of them really enjoy being selectors and are very proud with the relationship that they have with the library and they really feel that it's building a stronger collection with their input. We get kind of frustrated sometimes because I certainly last year for the 2012 fiscal year, communication studies, they're ones that tend to wait until the end of the year and submit the orders and they ended up not submitting any orders for the entire year and so then we had to go in and kind of pick some titles up in communications since they hadn't submitted any orders. We don't have a print approval plan which I know is common at many university libraries but we do have a slip plan and we work with Yankee which is our primary vendor and so that kind of gives us some idea of the titles that are coming out and what's going on so we tend to have, we have a method, sometimes it feels like it's a little bit of a hodgepodge approach but we are attempting to build a strong collection and we certainly are strong in the area of theology that's been a primary focus at Creighton and that one, the theology department feels that they do a very good job and things like that but we definitely have some areas where we can work on improving. So what's happened with the use of the Reiner Collection and when we were looking at starting demand driven acquisitions in May of 2001, I kind of went back and looked to see what we had done in 2010-2011. We added 4,872 print titles. We've got the Springer eBook collection, the entire subject collection since we work with the medical school and the medical library, we felt that getting the entire package even though there'd be some subsequent areas that weren't of interest to Creighton was the way to go and so that's really added a large bulk of our eBook titles there and then we also had the E.Bury Academic Complete Collection and we started that about three years ago when we did the entire subject range and that's been really popular. We kind of played with the eBooks in 2000. I think when everyone got those net library collections and kind of was trying out how it was working and things like that and I think many of us were kind of frustrated with a checkout feature and kind of using the interface in general and so with the E.Bury rendition, their interface was easy to use, clean, it's been really successful. It's taken off, it seems to grow each year. In 2010-2011 our eBook usage increased 29 percent. This past year, 2011 and 2012, it increased 49 percent so the students really are using that E.Bury interface, they're using those eBooks and I really felt confident that that was an interface that we could use and work with. Our print circulation is down 5 percent so we're kind of holding steady. We're a little bit down but you know certainly the eBook usage is taking off and I think that's where student comfort level is, they want to get in, get out, get their material, have it available and so we felt that by working with advanced driven acquisitions and eBooks would certainly be successful. So we also looked at kind of our eBook usage versus print usage and I had a sample of 46 titles that we had held both in print and eBook. It's not our intention to buy titles in both formats but because of the academic complete collection we did have some overlap because we'd already purchased the print titles and then we happened to get in the eBook format. So I was able to kind of look at the sample, I did a variety of subject areas just to kind of get an idea of what's happening. Certainly I thought the eBook usage would be higher but it's kind of a mixed bag, we had 17 titles that were not used in either format, 11 were used only in print, 7 only in eBook and 10 in both formats and again it's kind of hard to look at these statistics because as you can see I had user sessions of 233, I had 24 checkouts but with the eBook obviously your statistics are going to count each time someone goes in the book and then when you've checked it out you don't know how many times they refer back to it when they use it throughout their checkout period but it did kind of give an idea and I would expect the eBook usage to be higher that I would hope and that you know checkout period you just you can see that I checked it out and that's about it but I could see that they are using the eBooks and I'd heard from other presentations that I attended that if you had books in both formats they tend to have higher usage and you know certainly no one has the budget to go and buy all their books in print in eBook especially when we're trying to build our collections we want to have as many options and titles available it doesn't really make sense to use your limited funds on buying a title in two different formats but if we have to have some overlap then that was a way to certainly examine what was going on and then I kind of looked at the eBook versus print circulation or usage and I looked at the time looked at some subject areas from 2008 to 2011 for each year I just looked at the titles that were either checked out or used and you can see that the eBook usage is growing each year it's getting it's spending more and more and biology and business certainly have the highest usage for eBooks but they're still only in the 50% range biology is at 56% business is at 57% so the usage of print is not stopping or going away I mean they'll graduate they're gradually building to more eBook but they still have a long way to go in terms of just being a primarily eBook usage of the collection history and political science are certainly coming on strong religion for 2011 the usage is at 19% so we do have a strong print collection in the area of theology religion but it is building each year and so most of the subject areas are between 20% and 30% in terms of the eBook usage so I really felt confident that if we started getting titles on the demand-driven acquisition platform that the comfort level with you using eBooks is there and so we won't have anyone who is not especially at the student level who's not comfortable with using an eBook so why try demand-driven acquisitions and I will say for the public libraries out there I think they tend to chuckle this is kind of more of an academic library and fight phenomenon public libraries have always kind of bought what their patients wanted and requested and they've been really in tune with getting what people are asking for and academic libraries have tended to kind of build and try to have something available just in case and maybe someone down the road might need it you know this might be coming out later on we need to have it now and so demand-driven acquisitions is really helping academic libraries move away from the just in case to more of a just in time phenomenon and it's certainly giving us more electronic content people are not wanting to come in and check out the book and go home they're wanting to you know look at it online have it available refer back to it later if they're doing their paper at two o'clock in the morning they can go in and get what they need especially if they discover they don't have enough items and they need to do some searching to find some more resources also a cost-saving ability we certainly all have bought the book that did not get used for ten years and then you ended up weeding it out of your collection it no one ever opened it you know it's in pristine condition brand new but no one wanted to look at it if they haven't looked at in ten years probably not gonna ever look at it so certainly it was a purchase that didn't need to be made also this is gonna change the way our collection development process is done as I said before faculty do a lot of the selection if I've got those titles already in the catalog for people to discover maybe that'll kind of shift some of the collection development onto the students this also could be an alternative to ILL you know if we can just do a short-term loan or even purchase the title rather than interlibrary loaning certainly we'll get there a little bit faster then they'll go in find it and use it right away and also patrons can be better formed about emerging trends areas of research and the change in their program direction sometimes they're a little bit slow to find out what's happening if there's been a change in focus new faculty members come in and maybe they haven't gotten many titles in their subject area before but they suddenly are doing a class that's got a strong emphasis on this new direction and we just don't have many items in the library yet and this is certainly a way to kind of fill in the gap and see what the usage is headed and what people are needing and what they want to have access to now there are some concerns about demand-driven acquisitions about two years ago eBury did a pilot project and they worked with various libraries throughout the country and they kind of did a large load of items I think you had to load like a hundred thousand titles into your catalog and then you just kind of went to see what was happened and Duke University was kind of the horror story they went through $30,000 in like two weeks or you know just this they put it out there for everyone to use they wanted to see what was happened and it kind of was a budget buster they really went through and did a lot so we all kind of were like well you know I can't really spend $30,000 in two weeks or even a month or even two months and certainly you know I certainly can't keep that pace throughout the year so there are some concerns about you know how do you control the budget you know how do you monitor but they Yankee and any of the programs have some options in place so you can kind of keep it keep a handle on what's happening also digital rights management restrictions you know are we kind of limiting the use of the titles are we unnecessarily causing some problems is certainly when they are coming to you know not many people want to print out an entire book but you still can't do that in many cases the publishers are limited to a couple chapters couple pages you know certainly trying to not have people print off all the books and then how large of a pool do you need of the titles you know a hundred thousand titles certainly sounded way large and I was hearing you know maybe needed a 25,000 titles maybe needed to start small and only do 5,000 titles maybe a thousand titles and it's really what was the right mix and what was what was the best way to go and at the time we started people are kind of all over the board I think every library approaches it's differently you really have to find out what's best for your library and what direction you want to take and what your comfort level is and also we didn't want to shortchange our collection you know who knows what was going to be bought and were we comfortable with that we certainly take pride in building a quality collection that meets the needs of the Creighton community and we want to continue with that path we don't want to suddenly have titles that really we wouldn't have bought otherwise so what's the optimum size so I was pretty conservative for our initial load I kind of went wanted to kind of take a little tiny step into the pool you can say and so I started with about 500 titles for my initial load and then how long do the title stay in the pool again everyone's done it for wide variety approaches some people leave them in for six months a couple people are planning for a couple of years I'm planning on leaving them in there for a couple of years I really feel a lot of times that the topic comes out it's used later certainly it's not like it's a bestseller that everyone's hearing the buzz about these tend to be more academic titles university presses and so it's definitely something that they'll discover and they kind of need a couple of years to discover the titles and it's not really harming anything to have that title available and do you want to limit by publishers you know certainly this is one way to make sure you only have titles that you are comfortable purchasing also do you want to that how many do you want to do a short-term loan there's a variety of ways you can set up your program and many people do the short-term loan and then they'll purchase and so you can determine how many short-term loans you want or if you don't want to do short-term loans at all I do want to set a price cap you know certainly if you're not comfortable having someone have the ability to buy $200 book you can set the price cap at any level that you're interested in and then how will the vendor help me I'm going to need a variety of reports I need to know what's going on what's happening with the collection what's happening with the DDA title pool what kind of feedback and support am I going to get from the vendors and you know what am I actually doing and finding out and I need to know how are they going to help me and then what's the role of the selector I think some people are a little concerned that their role as a selector for the library collection is going to diminish if we've just kind of turned it loose to the masses and let anyone pick what they want and so these are some things to consider kind of find out you know what's going on what's your comfort level and see what's happening so I kind of want to talk about what demand-driven acquisition does now at this point there are several vendors that provide the service we're working with Yankee but EBL provides it EBSCO provides it and they all kind of have the same premise the user will have some activity or trigger that causes either a loan or a purchase and for ours with Yankee if someone looks at an e-book for 10 consecutive minutes then that's going to trigger a short-term loan or if they look at 10 unique pages or if they have a page that's copied or printed they really have to engage with the material if they look at the front or the in matter then that's not going to count as a trigger also if you've got someone who opens the book looks at the page and then talks to their friend for 15 minutes while e-berry software has the ability to determine that you know this is really dormant there's no activity here and so you won't get charged for someone who opened it stopped using the material but you know certainly met the 10-minute rule so they have to be actively engaged and actively using the content for you to have a trigger and then there's three short term loans that are available you can do the one-day short-term loan which is 10% of the list price you can do a one week which is 15% of the list price and do one month which is 25% of the list price and we decided to do the one day short-term loan to kind of see how that was going I felt you know if they got in they used it again then we could buy it because they probably are actively engaged with the title and studies have found that the items picked from patron driven acquisitions tend to be used again so that was something I wanted to kind of look at and be aware of it's you know if we did the one-day loan is that really giving us the optimum for getting the titles that we need that are of use and that will be used again because we certainly are trying to avoid the long-standing habit with many libraries of buying something that never got used and then we also worked with Yankee to kind of monitor our plan so that it mirrored our split plan we kind of wanted to have a wide variety of subject areas set a price cap at $125 originally we wanted to do a price cap for humanities social sciences and business at 125 and then have the sciences at 175 but we're only able to set one price cap so we just put it at 125 and that way we kind of would only purchase titles at 125 and below then we did the short-term loan and then we purchased the item we also did the single-user option now many people think oh ebooks we need to have multi- user you've got you know what do you mean there's only one single user but many of the publishers are only providing the single-user option and so also we really felt that most of the time these that titles that we were purchasing were really only going to be used by one person now eBury is coming out with something this fall where you can kind of upgrade either temporarily or on a permanent basis if you have a title that has a single-user option and someone tries to use it when it when someone else is using it then you can do a short-term loan and that will provide access to the person but again this is only available for the titles that the publishers have said yes we all allow multi-user options or you can set it up so that you can upgrade to the purchase of the multi-user option when we started and previously you had to determine before you even purchase whether you're gonna have the single user option the multi-user option and now they're kind of giving you a way to kind of upgrade if possible so that you can go to the multi-user option but currently with the single user option you do get a message saying that the title is currently in use and that you can ask to get an alert that tells you that the title is available and I tested it out and when the person closes the book then the person will get the alert about 15 minutes later but again I think there's just something in many people's minds that e-books should always be available for everyone and they can't believe it's in use but e-bra has also done several studies that kind of look at the overlap between users is usually minimal it's not a lot unless you have a class obviously where everyone is supposed to read a chapter and everyone's trying to get in at the same time then you're gonna have overlap but in general these books tend to be used by one person at a time and a single user option is usually fine so we did our first record loads in May 2011 and again I said I was rather conservative and I only loaded about 500 titles and so by October 1st of 2011 I was up to 990 titles and I was really kind of discouraged we had some usage we had some purchases but I didn't have a lot of activity I was kind of hoping for more activity and so in December I decided to kind of do a larger load and change up my profile and so I added about 10,000 titles in December to kind of bring up the pool and another rule that's kind of emerging that I think is working for Creighton is kind of have double what you would purchase any year for the print collection so in 2010-2011 we bought 4,800 titles and so by doubling that and having that in our DDA pool I kind of had double what we had purchased in print and the next half kind of the spring semester we certain our usage went up in terms of the short-term loans and the purchases and I also decided to allow publishers that did not allow for a short-term loan to be in there previously I said no if they don't allow for short-term loan I don't want it in there because I want to have the option of doing a short-term loan but in December I added titles that if you used it once you bought it so now in September of 2012 we have 10,000 titles in our catalog they're searchable in the library catalog they're searchable on the eBerry platform and then we also have summon a web-based discovery service and they're available there we're using the eBerry number the title control number as a way for us to know that this is a DDA title we also worked with Yankee and we put demand-driven acquisitions in one of our 900 fields so that we know that's a demand-driven action acquisitions title and the records created not cataloged we outsourced our 30 work and so I didn't want to send records off that we didn't actually own because I certainly don't want to pay for authority work for something that we might delete down the road and then we can FTP our discovery records from the Yankee site and we load them weekly and at first when we were loading we would kind of open them and mark at it to look at them see if we were happy with them but now I feel that they're good to go and we just load them we don't even bother to look at them anymore and so here's what a discovery record looks like and we're pleased we feel that it's flushed out enough it's got enough information people can find what they need and you know we worked with Todd and what we wanted to use for the column or we use internet for our ebooks and then we have the nine five five we have the Yankee demand-driven acquisitions and then you can see that they've got subject headings and information along those lines and so we're happy with the discovery record and feel that that's sufficient information for people to find it so what's happened in the year so we've had 204 short-term loans and 67 purchases and so we've only spent five thousand seven hundred and seventy nine dollars so the fears that I have that maybe be out of control we're unfounded it's certainly manageable this is a amount that we are more than comfortable it's spending I was happy to spend even more and then you can really see the difference between having the larger pool of titles in your DDA collection from May to December we only had 31 short-term loans and we had five purchases so in that eighth month period we just had that limited amount in the next eight month period we were up to 173 short-term loans and 62 purchases and the usage statistics are really kind of mirroring the academic school year we really had a lot a lot of activity in March April May and June we have a pretty active summer one session which happens in June and so we really you know we probably had between 20 to 40 short-term loans each month and then about 15 purchases during those months and so it kind of you could see that it's happening as the academic school year has geared up your loans and your purchases are going to increase there and definitely mirrors what's happening in the school year now Yankee will send out an email every time you have a short-term loan so you'll get an email saying that you had a trigger activity and sometimes they'll combine a couple of the titles but you can see certainly as it's happening what you're spending and what's going on and then they'll send out an email when you purchase the title and it'll say notice of activity and that then you can see that you've bought the title so you can see the difference on the emails between the loans and the purchases but those do come directly to you so you're able to kind of monitor what's happening and what's going on with your budget because I think we're we're still concerned about that but you can definitely see what you're spending what your loans are and then also look at what people are buying and may we had someone who purchased a literary criticism on the Hunger Games and I was very excited because I didn't think we would have had that title in our collection at that time but it was certainly right at the height of when the movie was out and someone who wanted to have literary criticism was able to find some information on the Hunger Games and they got what they needed so I felt like in terms of timeliness of the collection we're certainly there now with our DDA title list because we are loading those titles as they're available and therefore making them available to the Creighton community. So then what's happened with the different subject areas and this is based on the book store categories but as you can see we're all over the board but we also kind of mirror where our high number of e-book usage was because if you'll remember when I had looked at the categories business and economics that was 50 percent of e-book usage for the collection and checkout so we had certainly that was our highest for a number of ones but political science history and religion social sciences coming on strong computers actually get a little bit more usage on the e-book platform than they have gotten for our print collection so that's nice but again having all of the subject areas available was helpful because we certainly are in a wide variety and we're not focused on just one subject area so it is getting used throughout and then when you look at the publishers John Wiley has been very popular ABC Clio and then the Paul Grave McMillan that was one where they did not allow for a short-term loan and that you had to if you used it then you bought it and so we ended up buying 23 of those titles and then when I've gone back and looked at the statistics you can you'll get a report weekly on kind of your DDA activity and one of the columns will tell you when the book was last used and I found that 11 of the titles were only used once and all of those were the titles that we bought them the first time they were used rather than doing the short-term loan so now I've removed that feature so I tried it tried it for you know a semester of having the publishers that did not allow short-term loans we make those available but I've changed that I've gone back to just I want to do a short-term loan and then I want to purchase the title because I feel that's the best use of our pool and the best use of our money because it's certainly the highest usage of the titles that didn't get used again were the ones that we bought on the first time so that's not alleviating the problem that I was trying to address where we bought things and they never got used and then Taylor and Francis and Cambridge University Press were the kind of the next highest publisher so certainly publishers that we would buy in the print collection and e-book collection we would select ourselves and what the community is purchasing is matching what our expectations were and so then we look at kind of the use of the Reiner collection from 2011 to 2012 and then we added about a thousand less of our print titles we added 3800 the e-book titles was about the same and many of that does come from the e-berry academic complete collection the springer collection our e-book usage was up to 49 percent and then our print circulation was down to 11 percent so it kind of matches what I expected we're kind of holding our own with the print e-books taking off but I really feel like we're making these titles available and they're there for the people to use so that means to kind of the dda questions what have I found out what's been addressed what am I looking at now what do I need to be concerned about in the future and I feel that for Creighton the number of titles in the pool having it double what you purchase in print each year is a good match I'm really pleased with the loans and the purchases that we had in the spring semester and we seem to be on track this fall semester for usage that I would expect so I felt that double what you would buy in print is a good rule of thumb to use how long should they stay in the pool right now we're just going to leave them in for a couple years we're going to wait and see what happens it's not really causing any harm to have them there and we'll certainly make them available and see what happens now what type of reports will you get Yankee will send now a weekly report telling you the title what was loan what was the list price how much the trigger cost they'll also tell you when the first usage was and when the last usage was and I find this very helpful because I could see is there a pattern on are they used again and one of the first titles that we bought no fear of failure was used for a class one year later in June and so that kind of shows that you need to give it some time to see where the usage is because certainly if it's used in February might be used in February again or it might be used a couple months later and then when I looked at our purchases to kind of see do I need to do the short-term loan for a longer period than one day right now I don't really have a definitive answer we had 11 titles that were only used that one time then I've got 10 titles that were kind of used a week later so maybe for those you know one week short-term loan would have been sufficient I would have not have had to buy it and then 22 titles were used within the one month period and then I've got 24 titles that have been used throughout several months and used again and again so I don't feel that I need to change our policy to extend the short-term loan period I'm still happy with one day and that but certainly something I'm going to monitor and see if that's something I need to change right now maybe a month is sufficient but we do have most of the titles were used throughout the months but it's only 35 percent so I don't really feel I have a definitive answer yet and then do we need to purchase cataloging records we had decided that we would do cataloging records from Yankee they gave you that option they're $2 a record now as I showed you before the scope discovery records pretty fleshed out and has a lot of information so what we have done is if the titles purchase then we just change the 001 field instead of using the e-brain number which is kind of our signal to ourselves that that's either in the academic complete collection or it's a DDA title but in other words we've not purchased it we changed the 001 field to have the OCLC numbers and then we know we bought it and at that point we don't really use the cataloging record and we haven't changed it so I'm probably going to stop purchasing the catalog records and that we're happy with the DDA titles and how those records display and what information they have and we feel that that's sufficient and then I kind of looked at you know what have I saved you know are we doing pretty well in terms of the budget and looking at the short-term loan titles I spent $1,000 on the loans but if I purchased those titles I would have spent $8,866 so in one year I've saved close to $8,000 on titles that really were only used that once for a short time you know one day and I haven't so I haven't bought anything that you know what's going to be used again we certainly kind of addressed that issue by having the loan and then we did have some savings there of $7,800 and so I'm really happy with the way the program is going and the DDA is kind of matching our print circulation our highest areas of circulation our philosophy and religion language and literature sociology and history and that we have seen a lot of activity in those subject areas and again business is matching where there's a lot of e-book usage on the eBury academic complete area and so we've had a lot of loans there and so overall I feel like I've got some of my questions answered of what I'm doing Yankee and eBury are constantly kind of refining what they let you know and what's going on the report has changed a little bit they used to give you titles that maybe someone looked at the front or in matter but didn't actually trigger a purchase they no longer do that now they're just giving you the list of titles that were trigger or purchase and then also you can go on to the eBury platform that's where you can get the you can get records mark records that you kind of like there but you can also tells you what records need to be deleted and we've had had some titles that were in the DDA pool that are no longer available on the eBury platform for whatever reason and so I just go in weekly and kind of delete and get that report and do the deletes and get the information there and then the eBury platform what you can look at your usage there too and see kind of the downloads or the page views and things like that and then I've said it so that we do not download single-use eBooks for the academic complete collection since I have multi-users that people are allowed to download that but for the titles that just have the single user we're not downloading that and that's so that's something to think about and maybe look at but right now we're not going to let them download and so I do feel that I'm getting sufficient information to kind of monitor what's happening with the collection and what I need to do and I feel that we're also examining our collection more in previous years we kind of just bought what the faculty told us to buy and we still do that to the majority of the extent but now we're kind of looking at you know what areas are getting used are they getting used more on the eBook side are they getting used more on the print side do we need to make these titles available what's going on and so it's really giving us some information and some ways to think about our collection and managing our collection and what we want to do in the future and so I'll end with I'm really happy with how the demand driven acquisition program is going and certainly something we're going to continue in the future and that's all I have if anyone's got any questions I'd be happy to answer them thanks Sally yes if anybody has any questions there are two options for asking them you can either type them in the question box and I will see your text question there or if you do have a microphone we currently have you all muted but if you would type into the question box that you want me to unmute your microphone I can do that and then you can just ask your question over there so either one of those is an option for asking questions I know in the past I've been asked you know for the short term loans so I just take that out of the book budget or have I had to take it out of a different account since it's really more of a rental or lease rather than a purchase but we're able to just take it out of our book budget and kind of treat it like a purchase so great that's a good thing to know you don't have any questions coming in here yet perhaps you've just covered everything so thoroughly Sally maybe I don't know well if you do have any other questions I'm sure Sally will be more than happy to answer emails after the fact and you know we can touch with us and we can pass along your questions to her but oh we're just a couple more minutes here anybody's typing that's right and this takes a while there's a little bit of lag time when we're doing this via online and waiting for people to type things in it does not look like we're getting any more questions so I guess I will just say thank you Sally it was a great presentation we're glad you were able to do this for us well thank you very much and again feel free to contact me if you have any questions and thank you Emily I really enjoyed getting to present in a webinar I hadn't done that before so it's kind of a new experience excellent well you did very well now thank you all for attending Encompass Live and we'll hopefully see you next week