 Chris to Spain an ICANN board member in a long-time figure in the country code top-level domain sphere Chris in the early days John Postel handled most CCTLD delegations directly When ICANN was formed the CC registers disputed a lot of the ICANN fees. There was a lot of contention Tell us about that period. It was wider than the fees Brad. It was it was the whole ICANN concept CCTLDs was a sovereign still are and when I first came along to ICANN in 2000 November 2000 a lot of CCTLDs turned up to ICANN meetings to make sure nothing happened There was a an argument going on about The the the legitimacy of ICANN and more importantly even if ICANN was legitimate Whether the CCTLD world should bother to be involved and and should they pay them any money was of course a major part of that question as well as Should there be contracts between? ICANN and the CCTLD manager so for the first few years from say 2000 the CCs would meet to talk about that and eventually in about 2002 Enough people in the CCTLD world felt it was worth exploring Having a an inter a proper interface a separate CCTLD interface with ICANN apart from the originally the DNSO the domain name supporting organization Included CCs, but they left and so the question was should we have our own our own organization and as part of the As part of looking a look at ICANN structure a review of ICANN structure When we moved to what we have now the supporting organization model There was a call for there to be a CCNSO and that then took quite some considerable time to corral enough enough CCTLDs together To make it to give it critical mass so that it was possible to negotiate the formation of the CCNSO In those early days now is it an oversimplification to say that the CCs sort of didn't automatically assume ICANN authority Well, they still don't I mean they they they accept that ICANN has its role right and that they have their role and CCs can choose to be There's no because there's no contractual relationship unlike in the gTLD world where every gTLD is in is in a relationship with ICANN in The CC world with a few small exceptions. There is no contractual relationship So what that means is that the CCs come voluntarily to ICANN? At its baseline at its absolute baseline all a CCTLD Manager really cares about is the IANA function and as long as the IANA function works So the CCTLD manager can update a phone number in the database or change and address as long as that works And as long as it's stable CCTLD managers at the base are happy. There's very little Policy at a global level that has any effect on CCTLD's one example is the interpretation of RFC 1591, which is the RFC that John Postell wrote To govern the way that a CCTLD Management could be transferred from one body to another and CCs have completed now a Policy development on on how that should be interpreted now the interesting thing to remember about that is that that is a global policy That tells ICANN what to do not a global policy that tells the CCTLD's what to do and so this this independence Each one being sovereign coming voluntarily in my view actually significantly contributes to the legitimacy of ICANN because you've got Non-contracted people who run their own TLD Turning up and involving themselves in the ICANN model because they have to not because they have to but because they choose to so Was there an assumption on the ICANN side that equation in those very early days that the CCs would fall into a line or or Yes, absolutely the ICANN at that time ICANN's I mean ICANN was like a small number of people so individuals views You know held held sway and there was a for quite some time There was a view that CCTLDs would sign contracts that that would happen and CCTLDs would be obliged to make financial contributions And it just it just didn't happen because it was never going to happen. I mean Getting the CCNSO fought in itself was was we really got it across the line in Montreal in 2003 Not because we had a lot of CCTLD managers willing to Do to be in it, but more because the vocal voices against it Just accepted that they wouldn't join but they would not try it they wouldn't block it So in other words there was no active Blocking by any CC there was a little bit of active blocking but not enough to make it Yeah, very small number and not enough to make it an issue So when we set it up the the the the bylaw said It doesn't officially become the CCNSO Until you have four members in each of the regions. So you've got Europe Asia Pacific Latin America and Caribbean Africa and You think about that for a second you've got to get four members in each of those regions now The North American region is already a challenge because there aren't actually that many North American Members of the North American region and in fact, we're in Puerto Rico right now and Puerto Rico PR was a founding member of the CCNSO In in Africa we had we didn't have an issue in Africa We we got four members there Asia Pacific was okay because we had Australia and New Zealand and Taiwan and and one other which I can't remember but Europe was a real challenge a real challenge Because the the seat of the the seat of the antipathy towards ICANN was based in Europe and So you had large CCTLDs who simply wouldn't join So the Netherlands was this was a fat and L was a founding member and in the end we had to get Gibraltar became a became a member and We couldn't find a fourth member But because of the quirk of the ICANN regional setup that says that if you are if you are a Protectorate you are part of that region. So the French Polynesian islands are actually part of Europe We managed to persuade the Cayman Islands to join as a European member of the CCNSO Was it naive in the early days on the part of ICANN to assume that the CCs Would just fall in line I'm not sure there was an assumption that they would do that and I don't think anyone was was naive But I do think that there was a there was a Real does a real need I think from the point of view of of legitimacy of making ICANN Legitimate in this area to be able to show that you've brought the CCTLDs along There's I mean it's the same thing in respect to governments if you hadn't got the governments in right then How can you say that you have a you have a multi-stakeholder model? You just can't you've got you've got as a trade organization for GTLDs So there wasn't I don't think it wasn't night I don't think there was a sort of like it was really just like we have to have this And this is how we're gonna get it and over time that we kind of wore We wore it down to a point where people okay Well, we'll accept this and and I think that's worked pretty well You wore it down how oh just well well in various different ways by those of us who were sort of Committed to the multi-stakeholder model and wanted this to work by by Tempering the the agitation from the ones on the other end of the poll who just said not interested never do it We kind of brought the parties together. I mean Montreal was we spent I Spent Bart Bozwinkel from .NL, Bernie Turcotte from .CA and me and Alejandro Passanti and Hans From Netherlands on the board spent five days in a basement in Montreal in the Sheraton Hotel in Montreal Nutting out the final bits of the CC of the CCNSO and this was what time for him again? 2003 Montreal and then what had happened was that the the deal Had to go to the GAC to the governmental advisory committee to be Yes tick endorsed and had to go to the CCTLD room and had and have enough Buy-in from the CCTLD managers in that room for us to be able to say We are now going to push the button and see if we can find the four members from each region and during that Time that afternoon there were three or four hours The GAC chair was Cheryl Tamizi And he was obviously chairing the GAC and I was the the sort of the the the the nominated negotiator if you like in the CCTLD room and Cheryl was Explaining to the GAC how this was all going to work and they should endorse it And I was explaining to the CCTLD's how it's going to work and a number of CCTLD managers Even at that late stage were running between the two rooms telling the GAC that it wasn't going well in the CCTLD room And this telling the CCTLD room. It wasn't going well in the GAC. Fortunately Cheryl and I were on Messenger with each other Messenger remember that? So she how long ago it was right and and so we were able to make sure that that nothing nothing went wrong But it was touch and go and that was obviously a critical moment. Oh, yeah What were some of the others? Oh IDNs. I mean IDNs was was It's the thing that I'm probably The proudest of that the CCs did the fast the IDN fast track because of the expansion of inclusivity Yes, I mean what happened was that we were at an APTLD Asia Pacific TLD meeting in Dubai in 2007, I think and Teresa Swineheart that from ICANN Janice Carclans who was then the chair of the GAC and I were at this meeting and we were in a session and the Wave of passion that came out of that room It's the first time we've had a meeting in the Asia in the Arab region in the Asia Pacific thing The wave of passion that came out of that room to say we this is ridiculous We cannot use the internet properly because we cannot type in our script was so amazing that At the coffee break Janice Teresa and I went stood in at a table in the hallway with it with literally an envelope and a pen and Wrote down how could we make this work? So that it happened quickly Knowing that a full-blown policy development process would take a considerable amount of time sure and from there We developed the concept of having the fast track. The fast track was the first time in In ICANN where the GAC had been prepared to actually Nominate people from the GAC to actually be on a working group the GACs way of working previously had been we don't do that We're all in it together And you just tell us what you're doing and then we'll sort it out later But they actually agreed to put individual people on the working group we had at large So it was actually the first cross-community working group in ICANN although we didn't call it that then and that worked to build The fast track and to make that work so that IDNs were able to be to be launched Now I have a terrible memory for dates and times and I cannot remember the date it was but I do remember it was in Seoul and I was I was chairing the CCNSO Peter Dengate thrice was the chair of the board I think Avery was I don't remember if I think it was Avery was GNSO chair and the board passed the resolution to launch the IDN fast track and Everyone in that room was in tears Because it meant so much. It was an extraordinary moment There is to the layperson to the ICANN world. There is I think not clarity In terms of the relationship between CCs and the respective governments Yeah, well, that's that varies from CC to CC, right? So you have some CCs who are our government But they are they are just people they're people nominated by the government and you know China is an obvious example of that There are some CCs that are entirely entirely independent of a government now most of those are Our Legacy ones that where you've got still got an individual who's running that CCTLD who John postel nominated not all but most And they are they might talk to their government, but they're entirely independent of them You have some that are academia universities running them Because a lot of John's nominations were obviously clearly in the universities Yeah, and then and then you have the ones that have the sort of middle ground model which is usually a Sort of membership based independent organization that has a good Either a liaison role government either has a liaison role or in some cases an oversight role in respect to that organization So it the relationship varies, but if you want to run a successful CCTLD You pretty much need to have a good relationship with your government So in that context Chris was their concern on the part of many governments about this Involvement in I can't in those early days Well again, I think it varies from government to government. I mean there are some in those days there were some CCTLDs who who wanted Who didn't want there to be anything too? Loud or too far above the parapet because their concern was if government actually wakes up to us then we're gonna we're gonna have a problem Then there were some who were you know who were government and so on I think it was a mixed bag I think in the same way that the CCTLD managers some were for ICANN some were didn't care somewhere against whatever the same thing applies to governments And it still does I mean there are still you know There are governments in the today that you know don't feel comfortable with the ICANN model and there are governments that do In this project we're obviously looking back in time But looking ahead for a moment is it now just an automatic given that CCs are within the ICANN sphere with Part of the ICANN Process a part of the ICANN community. Well again, I suppose it depends on what you mean I mean if you mean is it a given that that they will Speak in terms of involvement. I mean it's in terms of involvement. No, it's not a given I mean a lot of CCTLDs do come a lot Quite a significant number do come and I mean in that in respect to the CCNSO We've probably reached the sort of 80-20 point Well, you know the getting the last bunch of members is much much harder than sure, you know, it's changing Because of the break now of the line between CCTLDs and GTLDs because you've got CCTLD managers running GTLDs now because of the new GTLDs and you've got you've got geographic Names appearing in the GTLD world. I think that's making Bringing the two sides if I can use that word together Stress is what holds buildings up and the stress between those two organizers GNSO and CCNSO is actually quite important because it's it's it's it binds ICANN together and the more the CCTLD Community kind of needs to involve itself in what's going on in the GNSO world Whether it's from a protectionist points of view or from a I'm involved points of view The more we actually come together as a community. No, it doesn't mean we get we necessarily agree with each other But at least we're in the same room Discussing it. So in the future, I think right now I think it is changing and there's much more cross-community stuff than they used to be the silos are kind of breaking down You you made a point of mentioning I think it's an interesting point that CC involvement was a form of validation of the ICANN model. It contributes to the legitimacy. Absolutely. Yes Did I can see it that way in the early days? I think some people certainly did I mean some people I think some people just felt that they had to get the CCTLDs involved because they were You know 246 of them and they'd all pay money So that was good. Yeah, because there wasn't a lot of money, right? But I think that Others were clearly felt and that the CCTLDs are critical from the point of view of Building the base of defensibility of the eye of the ICANN model. Otherwise, you can't really say you You're doing what you do because you haven't got a significant portion of the CC of the of the DNS in your on your on your side Chris was there ever a concern either in the early days or right up to present that on the part of the CC operators and part of the CC community That they were taking seconds Second seat to the the genera No, they wanted to take second seat because that what they did they didn't want I can to be to be influential in the in the CC world they wanted I can to concentrate on the GTLD world And so basically the CC in the early days. Yeah. Yeah, CCs were basically quite happy to have their own room And I mean there was talk at the time of you know, we'll pay we'll pay for our own room And we shouldn't take the money from ICANN and if you go if you go back and look at the bylaws When we when we set up the CCNS so it was critical and this took a long time to get agreed It was critical that we the CCs actually have the right to decide Who their staff support is and if the CCs are not happy with that they have the right to say Thanks We'll create our own and we'll pay for it And that was a really important point because people said well We kind of if we're having to if ICANN's staff are going to be providing us with all of this stuff Well, they will clearly we'll get captured. I mean it hasn't happened, of course, but then you know, we've got but Boswinkle so You expressed a great deal of pride. In fact, you wore the pride on your face when you were talking about ITNs Yeah, no one's been more involved in the development of CCs and bringing them within the ICANN world Then probably you have What other points of pride do you have? Well, I'm gonna answer that before I do I think I must acknowledge The work that Leslie Cowley did when she took over from me as chair of the CCNSO because what she did was work Really hard to to increase the membership. So, you know, that really does need to be acknowledged. I think probably Setting it up. I mean, there are lessons to be learned in what everyone in all sorts of ways what everybody does I mean, I think for example one of the things that the CCs did is when we set ourselves up We've got our four members and in each region and the first thing we did was a review of ourselves because we thought well This is we've now we're now here. We exist now We need to find out what we need to change in order for other people who haven't joined to join and that first step was actually Broke down a lot of barriers because people went. Oh, okay, so You're not just gonna close the doors and carry on but I think I mean in general terms Brad I'm just I just think this model is so is is so interesting. It's extremely hard work But it's so interesting and so and so important as a model that that For me Having CCs actually agree to be part of it. It is the most important thing I mean, how can you I used to say this to people. How can you you're in at home? Claim your right to run an independent CCT LD where you're not run by your government. You've got a membership based organization and you run it and you say you do outreach How can you do that at home and claim the right to do that and then not support the equivalent model? Internationally, it just doesn't make sense. Otherwise, you know, you're it's your legitimacy that's on the line. What came back at you when you were Oh, what it's nothing to do with that. It's not it's not you. It's them You know, it's all of that stuff all the stuff about well, it's not that it's about will I it is joining? I can that's sorry is joining the CCNSO putting me in a contractual relationship with ICANN No, well prove it to me And we had to have a lot of that kind of I make this claim and until you prove to me that I'm wrong I'm not going to do anything So the responsive will know actually you have to show me that your claim is right They wanted to prove proof of a negative exactly But I think you know that was a long time ago when we have a very vibrant CCT LD community and a lot of people who were You know very antsy have now turned around and and and a part of it And that's definitely something that I think we should all all be proud of I think I think I can should be Proud of of its relationship with the CCT LD community. I think the CCT LD's Generally are pretty proud of what they do and that's great. It's fascinating history. Chris to spame. Thank you very much. Thank you