 Thank you everyone for joining us here today for this webinar on utilizing emerging technology to streamline good land governance. I'm Yulia Pamphill and I'm a senior fellow and director of New America's Future of Land and Housing Program. Inefficient and inaccurate land registry systems, lack of standardization and transparency and lots of paperwork remain common challenges to good land governance around the world. We appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedules to contribute to this important discussion. This webinar has been convened by a land portal, foundation, midi-chi land governance, the Regional Center for Mapping of Resources for Development, or RCMRD, and the United Nations Settlements Program, UN Habitat. The goal of the webinar is to demonstrate how emerging technologies have the potential to streamline good land governance. Our dialogue today will begin with a presentation of the latest results from midi-chi land governance work over the last several years using blockchain and other technologies such as drones, cryptography, and artificial intelligence to provide user-friendly, low-cost land administration services and systems around the world. This will be followed by a discussion among our esteemed panelists, in which we will ask each panelist a few questions, we encourage a rich discussion and questions from the audience, and we'll reserve most of the last half hour to respond to any questions that you may have. Please allow me to introduce the panelists. Rania Elton is the Director of Marketing and Public Relations at Midi-chi Land Governance, a public benefit corporation that promotes economic development and full financial inclusion by helping individuals establish formal ownership of their homes and land. She has an MBA from Stanford University and prior to MLG, she worked on improving internet accessibility to low-income families joining MLG in 2019. Founded in 2018, MLG has expanded its presence on the African continent by helping governments establish land management and administrative systems using 21st century technology, notably with gender equity as a priority. Carol Boudreau is a senior land and resource governance advisor at USAID, where she supports the agency to design, develop, and implement programs to secure land tenure and resource rights. Carol also supports efforts to develop policies and practices that reflect the key role land plays in achieving development objectives. Omar Silla has been acting director for the Regional Office for Africa in the United Nations Human Settlements Program, UN Habitat, since January 2020. Before that, he was branch coordinator, urban legislation, land and governance in UN Habitat, and from September 2015, head of UN Habitat's land and GLTM unit. And finally, Emmanuel Necoranziza is the director general of the Regional Center for Mapping of Resources for Development, RCMRD, an intergovernmental organization with 20 member states in eastern and southern Africa. He has also served as the director general of Rwanda Natural Resources Authority and chief registrar of land titles in Rwanda, where he initiated and facilitated rollout of a nationwide land registration program. You, the audience, are of course warmly invited to participate as well. We'll start with a panelist dialogue, but then open the webinar for Q&A. If you have questions, please post them using the Q&A button at the bottom of your screen. Please do not use the chat box for questions. Without further ado, let me first give the floor to Rania Elton, speaking on behalf of Dr. Hussaini to present Medici Land Governance's latest work, Rania, over to you. Let me go ahead and share my screen. Thank you, Yulia, for the kind introduction. So who is Medici Land Governance? Let's go ahead and start there. We're a public benefit corporation with global operations. Our mission is to promote economic development and full financial inclusion by helping individuals establish formal ownership of their homes and land. How does MLG do this? Well, we use blockchain and other technologies, as Yulia mentioned, such as cryptography, artificial intelligence, and others to support land governance, titling, and administration with a secure public record of land ownership. We support governments with land valuation and taxation, public records on the blockchain, land administration, and systematic land titling. But more importantly, we're here to talk about streamlining good land governance. And I'd like to talk about how MLG defines good land governance. The characteristics that help us define our approach include accessibility to all citizens, including women and vulnerable groups, being customer oriented first, inclusively cost effective, transparent, secure, and sustainable. Our projects span the globe. From Wyoming to Zambia, we've created products and solutions to help city municipalities and national governments streamline good land governance. Let me highlight a few examples of our work. For Rwanda, we are collaborating with the Rwanda Land Management and Use Authority and Rwanda Information Society Authority to build and implement a web based paperless registration application called Ubutaka App. This app is designed to reduce double selling of land, identity fraud, and repudiation associated with land transfers by sale. The Ubutaka app is built for land notaries and registrars, and is the world's first application to incorporate the use of a fingerprint scanner, signature pad, and camera for the collection of biometric data against non repudiation, public key infrastructure for identification of land notaries and registrars, and a public blockchain for safekeeping of land based transactions in an open and transparent way. The Ubutaka app is currently being piloted in one district in Rwanda, the Casabo district. Through the pilot, we've seen that the application significantly improves the speed with which sellers and buyers can transact. In most cases, this is only one to three days. Ubutaka also reduces the transaction burden for Rwanda citizens. By using the app, they don't have to pay to print documents, they don't have to complete paperwork, and they need only make one visit to the land notary to complete their transaction. With the use of PKI and blockchain, Ubutaka app also makes land transactions more transparent and secure. MLG, Arela Mua, and RISA are actively exploring scaling Ubutaka app across Rwanda. In Zambia, MLG is providing systematic land titling, land administration, and payment software to enable the issuance of 4 million certificates of titles on state land over a period of seven years, the largest systematic land titling project ever embarked upon in the nation. MLG is in fact the first external company to invest resources upfront for guaranteeing security of tenure by issuing titles to Zambians. MLG's approach to systematic land titling through the systematic land titling process reduces costs and improves efficiency. First, our data collector application enables data collectors to gather landowner information, documents, and signatures using tablets at the landowner's location, bringing the application process to the landowner and reducing data loss that can be experienced with a paper based process. This helps both MLG and the government of Zambia reduce inequalities of access to land ownership due to income differences. Second, our government approval application allows each government office to review records, survey diagrams, general plans, and documentation. Once satisfied, capable authorities can approve each area electronically and sign where necessary. The recent approval of e-signatures in Zambia will further expedite issuance of offer letters and certificates of title. And lastly, our integrated payment system allows invoices to be created in sync with the government approval process and communicates back to the government approval application when payment has been satisfied so the certificates of title can be issued to eligible property owners. In Liberia, we're implementing a pilot project to issue land rights documentation to up to 1000 landowners in Monrovia. In partnership with the Liberia Land Authority and the Ministry of Finance and Development Planning, the project is modeling an approach for systematic land titling and digitized land administration. To do this, MLG used drones, our tablet-based data collection application, and our land administration system, LandM, to strengthen land rights for urban citizens. And our work also is in the United States. We are using blockchain and other advanced technologies to make land records more secure. In New York City, MLG is implementing a proof of concept with the New York City Department of Finance to record 500,000 condo records on blockchain and to develop a prototype aimed at reducing deed fraud. From making Teton County the first county to put land records on the blockchain to helping the island of St. Kits map their entire island by building an all-encompassing cadastral system, MLG supports governments around the globe to become paragons of excellence in land governance. By creating customer-oriented, cost-effective products designed to maximize accessibility to all citizens, MLG is standardizing land ownership and enabling landowners to participate in local and global economies. Thank you so much, Rania, for that presentation. It's really exciting to see the ways in which these new technologies are improving the speed and, you know, reducing the cost of issuing land documents and also improving access and transparency. And it's exciting to see how governments are responding by, you know, thinking through ways to make the process easier, for example, the e-signature law in Zambia. Thank you again. We'll come back to you in a bit for some more insight into MLG's work. In a while, let me now get the floor to Carol Boudreau. Carol, in your view, what are the challenges that we need to overcome to make the use of these types of new technologies reality? Thanks, Julia, and thanks to everyone who's joining us today. I'll share a couple of challenges from a donor perspective. So maybe a first challenge to think about is that the requirements and processes that are in place to work with us as a public donor are just frankly not as nimble as they could be for those working in the tech sector. So maybe a place to start is by asking how can large donors like USAID adapt to a swiftly changing technology or technological landscape and how can actually we improve some of our processes and requirements so that we're more attractive as partners for land technology companies. Okay, so next, so a little bit of a focus on us to start it, but then next, I do want to say that just because a technology solution exists, this doesn't necessarily mean there's a demand from either government partners or importantly consumers or local people to use that solution. So I think an additional important challenge is to understand when, under what conditions and for whom an exciting new technology solution might be appropriate. Another challenge that's always present is overcoming resistance to new methodology. So particularly when these approaches threaten existing jobs and privileges. Maybe I could share a brief personal example. My father was a stagehand at a theater in New York City for his whole life. A lot of years ago, computers started doing some of the work that stagehands who are the folks who are working behind the scenes of theaters. Computer started doing some of the work that stagehands had done up till then stagehands weren't very happy about the change, because now theaters could do the same or even more work using less labor and land technology is pretty similar. So naturally it's the case that some people are not only not happy but may actually be obstructive and not support changes that are exciting with clients that we were just talking about and finally, I do think it's important to know that documenting land rights with the support of land technologies, it requires a very careful rollout as it could actually exacerbate inequalities when it comes to access to land. So technology can be an integral part of maybe should be an integral part of the land documentation process, but it's usually not a standalone solution. Thanks, Julia. Thanks so much, Carol, and thank you for bringing the example of your father's experience and for touching on some of these challenges that go along with the rollout of some of these new technologies we're seeing. Let me now turn to Umar. Umar, could you tell us a little bit about the use of the social tenure domain tool as a land governance tool by the Global Land Tool Network. Thank you very much, Julia and the colleague who organized this panel and talking about new technology and land governance. And I think this discussion is really timely if you realize that you know how Africa is behind on this land registration system and others. And we realize that up to now I think 70% of land is out of the record, which means that we need a new paradigm because I think a lot of has been tried in the past. But we see as well, a lot of failure on the way that we address the issue of record. So now I think technology could be a good example in accelerating, you know, the establishment of land information system, the establishment of a sound land governance system in terms of efficiencies and democratization and others. But the question we need to ask ourselves in the context of Africa is what do we need, what are the prerequisites for this technology element to be successful in Africa. Knowing that we are operating in different, you know, land region system in different environment where we have conflicted land tennis system where the customary statutory system, which means that I think the ground is not really easy. And I like the point that raised by Carol saying for whom we're going to digitalize or for whom we're going to, you know, act on that. And I think we need to take into consideration various stakeholders on the issue of digitalization and interest as well. And that's the reason why as you may know it, the global network has been busy for 20 years looking into this matter, what could be the model we want to establish to make sure we are addressing, you know, those are right of land rights existing in the ecosystem of Africa, including customary system, informant system and others because we believe that the conversional system has failed to really offer this to new secretary to everyone. And one element we have been looking at you mentioned in Julia is a social tournament model is about linking right with social, you know, dimension of things and I think the social tournament model has been developed by global network to promote approach in land rights recording where land conversional system are limited, but also the tool is promoting land governance through its innovative framework, along the continuum of land rights and suitability to support the feedback approach in different contexts. So STDM what is good it is an open source tool integrating GIS framework and database system for robust data management storage. It is also integrated with mobile application and hand held geographic position system for offline and online data collection through an easy to use interface that can be managed by communities with less technical skills. That is a more innovation I think we need to talk about this STDM, you know, this possibility of community to handle it by themselves and to apply whatever they want into this application and create kind of a discussion around this issue of land governance and lantern registration it is fundamental. But also technically speaking we all know that STDM framework with its source code for users to extend and customize in different context and users is flexible, you can add up to many contacts and many users. As I mentioned is a patch battery approach promoted by GLTN through partnership in localizing the tool and creating awareness, improve the adoption of the tool and is in increased perception of tenant security informal element. So this tool has been tested in many countries for now I think we have been engaged in Uganda, where we have a progress is low, land low on addressing the issue of customer system. Zambia as well where we see reconciliation between statutory and customer system, and even outside Africa in Laos, we are working on establishing customer land certificates that are recognized by local authorities and national government. Today in Uganda, I think we have a really small than 25,000 customer certificate, you know, over the last two years, and this was an opportunity as well to bring civil society, community leaders around the table to discuss about mapping, discuss about data, and to discuss about different right that need to be captured into the STDM. But now another stage we are going into is how to streamline this STDM application into the formal administration, establishing a land registration system. And I think there's some experience going on very positive in a way that now we can get out of this paper base and get into more elaborate, you know, record system but also on process of the request get, you know, from communities. But it is work in progress, as we know it, technology is evolving rapidly, and this STDM is subject to many reflection, to many institution, looking away for taking to another level from there, maybe we can go to scale. And this is what I want to share on this experience, what must take for me is really when talk about digitalization, how to take into consideration different type of right but also the context of African land rights in a way that they are diversified and also some time conflict. Thank you very much for this first question. Thank you very much, and thank you for touching on the important aspect of the flexibility of STDM to really allow communities to determine for themselves the type of land mapping documentation they would like to partake. As a follow up question, are you using any of the emerging technologies that Rania mentioned in the presentation or others to implement STDM? Right. Of course, Julia, because as I mentioned, STDM developed my open source and considered as a popular free and open source package in GIS, the OSFAS information system and database system. There was a reasonable integration with several technology in the mobile and web ecosystem, which proven reliability and strong users support communities. So on the other side as well, the framework of STDM is extensive and support range of data from different source. The framework of a name real vehicle system and satellite imagery as support to provide large scale based map for participatory boundary documentation and verification. I think that's something we are using in line with what Google is doing as well. In all the context, territorial methodology for data collection using total station and real time kinematic and all the global navigation satellite satellite system, receiver and accommodated as source of data. But the de facto approach of STDM is participatory approach, as I mentioned it for affordability, accessibility and sustainability at the community level, just to confirm what you were saying. It is quite convergent and synergy on this different gadget and devices existing to make efficient, you know, this STDM, but looking into participation and ownership from communities over. Thanks so much, Omar. Emmanuel, let us turn to you. Could you please tell us a little bit about the work of RCMRD and also Nelga. Thank you very much, Yulia, for your introduction and thank you Medici land governance for organizing this webinar. It's very important as everyone has pointed out that this discussion is being heard today. Allow me to first introduce RCMRD, Nelga and then the work we are doing together. The Regional Center for Mapping of Resources for Development or RCMRD is an intergovernmental organization set up by UNECA and OAU, now AU, almost five decades ago with a mandate to support member states in getting better understanding of your natural resources, planning for the use, sustainable use and monitoring them using many Earth observation and IT capabilities. Today it has 20 member states, from Southern Africa or from Sudan to South Africa, but our work is not limited to these countries. We see Africa as a whole, as an area to support, as evidenced by the portfolio of projects we are running in Ghana and Okinafaso and the recent training we are giving to staff from the Liberia Land Authority. So in executing the mandate, RCMRD does it through project implementation, current involved developing limbs in Marawi for example, capacity building, providing advisory services and research. On the other hand, the network of excellence on land governance on Nelga is a partnership of leading African universities and research institutions with proven leadership in education, training and research on land governance. The network aims to promote research in the field of land governance and provide necessary data to support government policies, programs implementation, as well as monitoring these programs. So with the support of GIZ, RCMRD is working with another private company called Your Consult International to establish a land data hub to support the work of Nelga. Of course, as you can imagine, these research institutions require data to do the work as expected of them, and current it is being executed in Senegal, Botswana, Tanzania and Rwanda. So the objectives of the data hub are to accumulate country and region specific sources of land related data and guide the user in accessing this information, provide necessary data to monitor government policy and program implementation, as well as enable researchers across the continent to carry out a private research to inform policy dialogue and reforms. The key data sets are considered for inclusion in the Nelga data hub include land administration boundaries, land tenure and property rights, mineral and mining rights, land cover, land use maps and plans, land conflict and land grabbing, grabbing mapping, country development plans, even list of land experts in the region, as well as the other census data and household micro survey data. But of course, this is just one hub among the many that RCMRD hosts. I can just give an example of the regional resource hub that the center hosts on behalf of IUCN, that covers all data by diversity and protected areas in eastern and southern Africa in 24 countries. We also host a forest observatory that includes your special data on forestry in a number of African countries. And of course, the work we do on GIS generates lots of data that we put on our web portal and is free accessible. As I said, we support our member states in all these projects and they cut across different your special fields, but more important in land governance. We are involved with mapping or using IT to develop applications like we've done in Malawi where we have developed a mobile application to capture land data and as well as developing land information systems. So we are there to support using your IT and IT capabilities and we see the work of Medici particularly in Zambia and Rwanda which our member states as very complimentary to our mandate. Thank you very much. Thank you very much Emmanuel for telling us a bit about these very rich data sets that RCMRD is able to host and also support governments in using. I'll turn back to Carol. Carol several years ago USCID launched the mobile applications to secure tenure program, MAST. Could you tell us a bit about how this program has evolved and what have been some of the results? Sure, really happy to and really happy to build on what the other panelists have just been sharing with us. So first, let me clarify that MAST is really a participatory process. It is not a single application. And the important thing is that the process brings many stakeholders together, local people, civil society and government all to talk about and decide how they want to arrange their land uses and if appropriate address ownership status. So we can see MAST as a mechanism that promotes local dialogue and mediation around land uses, land management and ownership, which means that MAST can help me a whole variety of land and resource governance goals. So this approach started a number of years ago. It grew out of an idea that Scottish land sector expert Robert, excuse me, Rahman McLaren outlined in a paper in 2013 and the idea in the paper was, okay, well, how can we leverage all this new technology that we were seeing and have that technology used by trusted local people to leapfrog some of the barriers that can inhibit efficient and effective delivery of land administration services. And Frank Pachel, who is now at the, is now at Kedasta, but was at USAID at the time, began to work on MAST in 2014 with an initial small scale pilot activity that took place in three villages in the Uringa area of Tanzania. So I was working with local partners to raise awareness of Tanzania's land laws. This is what part of what we mean by a process. So the pilot worked to raise awareness of the Tanzanian land laws, and it spent a lot of time working on talking with local people about women's land rights, and of course it explained the new process that was going to be rolled out. And this was done through local meetings and engagements, and with the support of village councils in Tanzania. Importantly, the pilot also worked with young women and young men to actually do the mapping and the field data collection using tablets and the applications. The village committee members were also involved. They were, as was the local district land office, which received and process data into customary certificates of rights of occupancy, CCROs in Tanzania. Okay, so what were the results? The pilot mapped about 4,000 parcels, and the cost per parcel was about $20, or excuse me, the cost per CCRO was about $20. It was very gender positive in that nearly 49% of the parcels were registered in women's names compared to about 27% before the pilot. But there were challenges. This is why we do pilots. There were challenges delivering the formal CCROs, officials at the local land office did have some challenges processing a much higher volume of applications and documents. So we did work to improve those work streams and eventually we're able to support the introduction of electronic signatures, which we've mentioned before. Because these results were pretty positive, the government of Tanzania was encouraged to continue. And so we launched a larger scale project in Tanzania through the USA admission that allowed us to scale up the process and to professionalize the process of delivering applications. This further reduced the cost and particularly reduce the cost for village land use planning. This is important in the Tanzanian context because costs per village land use planning was a step that had to be taken before CCROs could be issued. And the costs for doing village land use planning before introducing masks were about $10,000 per plan that was pretty expensive and difficult to manage. And they were reduced down to about $2,000 per plan. Over the course of the last couple of years, then through the scale up of masks, we've mapped approximately 98,000 parcels in about 65 villages and reduced the cost to approximately $8 per CCRO. Other donors in the meanwhile explored using this approach. And so the approach was taken up by the land tenure support program, which was funded by the UK, the Swedish and the Danish governments and their development agencies. And our understanding is that they have also delivered CCROs and mapped approximately another 300,000 parcels. Now some civil society organizations are using the application, including the Jane Goodall Institute. The project coming to a close and to promote sustainability USAID supported a process to transition the project team into a local NGO in Tanzania, and they will be providing fee for service approach. So at this point, we understand the World Bank is likely to adopt this technology and further scale it. But we haven't just used the master approach in Tanzania. We've also adopted and adopted the approach to using Burkina Faso, Liberia, Mozambique, and Zambia. Oftentimes to map and report customary holdings so that local people can protect those holdings as well. So I would say to conclude USAID is always excited to work with partner governments and others to support new efforts to expand how we use this interesting approach and these technology tools. Thank you, Julia. Thanks so much, Carol. And that's a great description of how the approach grew from a pilot to scaled implementation over the years, which of course is what you want to see with the introduction of these sorts of approaches. Omar, turning back to you, UN habitat is working on digital urban governance. What can you tell us about the Web SIG app? Thank you, Julia. I'm happy that today we are talking about urban land because I think this point connection between urban rural land has been overlooked for years and I think we have been most focusing on the issue of rural land. But with the trend of urbanization we are seeing in Africa, where we are expecting Africa to reach this urban transition by 2040, which means that more people living in cities and rural areas, I think we need to give attention and to find a balance between rural and urban land in a way that as well. We see a lot of challenges coming in cities because we are not well planning our cities and today in Africa, we have more than 46% of population in cities living in formal settlement and what does it mean for those people? They don't have access to tenant security. They don't have access to decent living with the condition system that I believe that the new paradigm is in which we need to operate as a land actors is to really connect rural and urban. And this has been captured by UN Habitat because if you look at the new urban agenda, I think we mentioned those three dimensions, social dimension on equity element, environmental dimension, now we have climate change element happening everywhere, but also the finance and economic dimension is how to leverage land to support investment, whether it is in cities in rural but at the same time looking into the continuum in terms of value chain between rural and urban because they are complementary and not distinct. I think it's very important to start with this analysis because UN Habitat has established what we call the urban observatory, which is overseeing coordinated urban data collection and analysis as a global level and to monitor and track cities performance on these digital indicators. And this global indicator has been very active on promoting this indicator 1.4.2. We have been championing the World Bank and I'm happy that this is HDs now, these connections we recognize. The global observatory assists the instant and data capacity at national and sub-national level, providing platform to facilitate effective knowledge exchange and promote evidence-based governance, build on the sharing base. But in order to promote information analysis to all stakeholders, UN Habitat has developed a number of partnerships including the global platform expert in the cities to develop a web solution called WebSIG. So this platform hope to identify and establish cadastres at the common level to avoid land conflict but at the same time to provide those relevant tools for better management and use of the land including land use planning and related element. And therefore this is complementarity with the previous work that UN Habitat has been doing on the SDDM, on the Stabic land information system, which means that this WebSIG will promote this access to data, but also this land information system that can help local government and others to create a decent environment for discussion, but also for attracting investment, and therefore address those challenges we are seeing in many countries right now in the urban area, which has become a gray zone, where you have a lot of conflict and a lot of land grabbing, so I can say this WebSIG will promote as well better land governance and transparency on land allocation distribution. Thank you very much. Thanks so much, Umar, and thank you for pointing out this, you know, UN Habitat's work to really link the urban and rural landscapes and not see them as two separate worlds, and it's exciting to see how WebSIG will help promote land governance at this rural urban interface. And then, while turning back to you, you have mentioned that RCMRD hosts multiple data repositories and has a mission of supporting member states in getting a better understanding of their national resources, mainly through the use of Earth observation and IT capabilities. Could you tell us a bit about the different approaches that member states are using to gather this data in new and interesting ways? How has their approach to data collection changed over the years? Thank you very much and thank you the other panelists for pointing out some of the experiences in the countries. Of course, from what Karo says Tanzania is one of our member states, so some of the work that is happening there, we take notice of it. The same applies to what Medici is doing in Rwanda and Zambia as I mentioned earlier, but there are also other examples of what other countries in our membership are doing. I gave an example of Malawi. As a center we helped Malawi, for example, begin mapping the traditional land management areas before they can be able to map their customer estates. They chose to first map out all the traditional land management areas and they were able to get titles. Now they are at that stage where they can go inside these traditional land management areas and map out individual estates. And what you've done with them is you've used advances in earth observations and develop a quick app that can be able to capture land parcel boundaries very quickly, transmit the data to a database system and be able to process it quicker. But of course we said the potential for technology is very high, whether it's IT, whether it's earth observation technologies, but the uptake is still very low by any standard in our member states. And I think it's really a duty of all of us to make sure our countries benefit from the so-called fourth industrial revolution. So there has been improvement in capturing data boundaries. I mean, when I began my surveying career maybe 20 years ago, I just measured in one point. You take a whole week because you'd have to get control so many miles away. But today within a few seconds you can be able to pick coordinates of a whole parcel at centimeter or even millimeter accuracy. So this is a great level of improvement, as I said, both from earth observation perspective, but more importantly, what can be done using IT, especially on processing data and being able to deliver services at speed and low cost. Thank you very much. Thanks so much Emmanuel for pointing out these exciting improvements that really have been happening over just a short time span. So it's exciting to see what will be coming next. Carol, turning back to you, I understand that USAID incorporates geospatial analytics in environmental and also land and resource governance programming that it supports. Geospatial analytics, of course, is a combination of GIS technology with scientific methods and processes to transform data into visual actionable information. How are you linking with other countries in this regard? Yeah, thanks so much for that question. You and I have known each other for a while so you will know, but I will just be transparent for the audience that I am not a geospatial specialist or advisor but at USAID my colleagues, Janet McConey are geospatial analysts and they both have very deep expertise on land issues. Ioana and Janet are regularly using their skills and their experience to help develop a variety of analyses for USAID missions and for our operating units and this work is interesting. We have included issues such as identifying areas where artisanal miners are operating and using data to help formalize mining claims. It's also been used to support land use planning and analysis of land allocations as well to identify areas with high levels of food insecurity so that we can explore how tenure arrangements may or may not contribute to internal displacement and migration. And then finally in some other areas this work has helped us to identify challenges that are associated with deforestation by looking at historic deforestation patterns and some of the potential drivers of deforestation. So this is a little case of what my colleagues Ioana and Janet are doing. Thanks, Julia. Thanks Carol and it's so exciting to see these use cases and just see how this sort of analysis can kind of make the invisible visible if you will sometimes for the first time. So how do you see the future of geospatial technologies supporting countries to improve land governance? Thank you so much. So I actually think there's a lot to be encouraged about and particularly we've just heard a lot about how technology continues to evolve as that technological evolution continues. It should continue to be easier and less expensive to use new or improved tools and to adopt more participatory methods to map and analyze and plan out land uses more accurately. I'm sort of echoing a point that Umar was just making this will be especially important for mapping informal settlements in peri-urban and urban areas and for improving the tenure security for urban dwellers, giving them better incentives to invest in and upgrade these areas as urbanization trends continue, although this last year was a little unusual. I think the potential to provide new opportunities for cities to map these areas and then to generate revenue associated with residents who are in those areas. This is so exciting because it can support additional service delivery. Secondly, I think I'm really encouraged about the role that technology can play with some caveats, but I'm encouraged about the role it can play to identify and help protect indigenous and other customary land claims. And this is important right now. The demand is increasing to understand where indigenous peoples live and to clarify the extent and the nature of their territorial claims. It's also important to protect areas under indigenous and customary land governance systems from a whole variety of potential encroachments or competing uses. We know from a growing body of rigorous evidence that in fact there is a robust relationship between securing land and territorial claims of indigenous peoples and reducing deforestation. So if we can do more using technology to identify and protect these areas, this will be extremely important and maybe particularly to meet all of our climate goals as well as to protect the claims and rights of these communities. Finally, I noted a little while ago and I'll just close by re-emphasizing that we should adopt technology to meet land governance needs but in context. So technology should be adopted to meet local needs and it should be carefully adapted to build trust with local peoples, trust in the process and trust in the data, rather than the technology solutions themselves driving the process. So at the same time, while technology can help improve transparency and reduce corruption and make services more accessible, it is not a panacea, but it does deliver some important benefits. So ensuring that technology meets those local needs is critical. Thank you, Julia. Thanks so much Carol and I really appreciate that last point that you made about adapting technology to meet local needs and I appreciate the perspectives of everyone on this panel who is working in some way to really make that bridge with local communities and with governments in this technology adoption. For our last question of the panel, I'd like to turn back to Umar. Umar, what is the vision of UN habitat for using technologies to improve tenure security in human settlements? Thank you, Julia. I mean, after working in this land sector specifically in Africa for more than 25 years, I believe that you will not win the battle of development until we improve our land governance and system in Africa. As mentioned by Carol, we have a lot of delay on addressing this matter and missed opportunity as well, because today how much country is harvesting, you know, the land value capture or land based financing to support service delivery in Africa. They are little and based on the study we did, for example, in Kisumu on the own source revenue, it has been proven only 13% of the value of land is being used in Kisumu as a source of revenue, which means that you have 87% of the potential dormant somewhere, which means that the local government authority are sitting on a good mind. I can say that. Second point, as we're looking at the trajectory of Africa, I think Carol has mentioned the issue of instability, because land has become a source of conflict. What we see in the Sahi regions in the whole of Africa, you know, more than they are related to control and access to land, which means that today when it's come to human settlement, it's good to open our eyes and see how best we can, you know, embrace those complexity and not, you know, going around. I mean, as we see it in many countries where people are just saying it's complex, we will not touch on it. But we need to touch it because it's part of the system and it's part of the development pattern for Africa, and we have to make it clear. This is important for UN habitat. Of course, we are on this transition, you know, using technology to accelerate, you know, the land governance improvement system, but also access to tennis security. But at the same time, we need to question and look at some elements of sustainability on this new technology. What does it mean for this technology to be able to serve the purpose and not create a new elite capture in the land governance system. That's some risk we are seeing in Africa. You mentioned the resistance of some elite on this modernization of land information systems from country. I think five years back I visited chat. There was a huge operation on land information system establishment and modernization of the cadastral system. But every time, you know, the system was broken. Why? Because people were not ready and there was support of the system. I don't know what I'm talking about because in Rwanda, people have been supporting, you know, doing support systems have been taken together for many days. From there, I think what has those, you know, safeguard system established, you know, to make sure at least this system is conducive really to acceptance. The second point, which is very important, first financing as well. So I think for now, as mentioned by Karol, he brought the perspective of learners. But what are those countries in the national budget, this land information and digitalization system, few of them. Rwanda, I think there is one or few of those countries are doing it. For me, it's time to articulate the need for land governance with national development plan and include it with the national development plan to make sure at least it's a priority for the government. And even some countries, they don't have minister of land, even. It's just, you know, it's just really mess up with others issue, you know, and the cross sectoral element where you don't have visibility and importance of the land. The last point I want to mention capacity. I think this is very important. If you look at the level, you know, of capacity of many land administration system, you may question how this, you know, land information system and digital system can survive. Because many of them are not trained. And the poor quality of the stuff is very, is very, you know, disparately sometime. I mean, we see all the challenges in many land administration. Linking, you know, this technology system, capacity, financing and policy, I think it's fundamental. And I think that's where this very important. How we can work together, bring our mind together and make for, you know, some kind of progress on the way we support member states, the way we support local government is very important. And that's what strives to get in, what strives to get in. I think we have been working many actors in the room today on promoting this collective vision on land governance in Africa. And I think let's work together, and we can overcome all these challenges. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for those words, Umar. And I'm so glad that you brought up this question of financing, which I think is often the elephant in the room who is providing funding for the rollout of these services and why, you know, how could governments be prioritizing land tenure more in their own budgets. And if not governments, then what are the other models for funding land registration at scale? I will, before opening it up to the Q&A, I will turn it back to Rania for just a few closing words, and I'll just remind all of the audience members that you can drop your questions into the Q&A feature on the bottom of the screen and we'll try to get to as many as we can. Over to you, Rania. Thank you, Yulia. I just wanted to say thank you to all the panelists. Omar and Carol, STDM and masks have really been an inspiration for us at MLG and we love learning about the work that you're doing and the lessons learned. Emanuel, the work that your organization is doing is critical to the sustainability of our work. As you said, our work is complementary and I hope we have an opportunity to work closely alongside one another. In fact, in line with our public benefit goals earlier this year, MLG signed an MOU with the Sustainable Development Goal Center in Africa to advance Africa's overall development goals and the SDGs 2030 agenda over the course of two years. I wanted to address some of the challenges that have been raised by the panelists. Yes, technology does have the risk of removing jobs. We overcome this by retraining people and trying to bring more and more people into the system. There are also challenges of user adoption. One way we see to overcome this is to identify the problems that government and land administrators want to solve, then to build the products that help solve those problems. And that's it for me. Thank you, Yulia. Alright, we will turn it over to the Q&A portion of this webinar. And the first two questions are back to you, Rania, and I'll just ask them together. The first is about the coverage of the system implementation in Rwanda and Zambia. So what is the current coverage of MLG's work and is there any plan for nationwide rollout? And then the second question is how does MLG deal with cases where the needs or the wishes of local communities might clash with the government's plans or policies? Thank you. So in terms of the rollouts, as I mentioned before in Rwanda, the pilot project was in the Gasabo district, but the government of Rwanda and MLG are looking into the potentiality of rolling out nationwide. For Zambia, this is a nationwide project. We've already gone through Lusaka and we've actually moved up into different provinces. It's 4 million titles on state land across all of Zambia. So this will be, as I mentioned, I think in my presentation earlier, it's the largest nationwide project to date taken on in Zambia. On the second question, you know, MLG does not get involved in disputes on a large level. You know, to the experiences that we've had so far, we have not had, you know, distinctive clashes. It's not something that we would necessarily get involved with. We work really closely with the government to make sure that the needs of the communities are met, and that's how we design our products. Fantastic. Thanks so much, Rania. This next question is to all of the panelists, so please feel free to jump in. What is your experience with women? And I know, Carol, you addressed this in your remarks, so if you'd like to elaborate any further, great, or if not, that's fine as well. What is your experience with women's access to and adoption of land governance technologies? And what are some of the successful approaches that you've seen to help women use and benefit from these technologies? I'll start, Ilya, and I'm sure my colleagues on the panel have additional remarks. I would say that for USAID, this is a hugely important issue. We place an enormous emphasis on working to help secure women's land rights and to raise awareness of the benefits that those land rights provide not only to women themselves, but to their families and to their communities. So the mass approach, for example, will work in a context-specific way in different countries to raise awareness with community members, women and men, about the rights that women hold under the formal law, but also working customary areas to talk about the benefits that can accrue to families by placing women's names on some documentation or placing names of daughters on some documentation. So there's an awareness-raising component to the work, but there's also oftentimes an engagement with women as parent surveyors or as data collectors to bring them into the community to demonstrate that they can do the work. So they are acting as role models for other women in the community. They may have more trust of other women in the community. So they have been involved in the mass process basically from the beginning, from the early stages of the process. We were trying to make the process gender responsive and certainly gender aware and have maintained that focus over time. And in fact, in some of our project areas Mozambique would be a good example. We have just a really remarkable uptake from women. The majority of parcels being mapped and reported are in women's names in some locations. So it's been a core part of the project from the start. Thank you. I would say also, I mean to many of Carol's points, the only way to really address diversity and inclusion is to include the most diverse people when building products at MLG. First, we develop technology with diverse users, including women and other vulnerable populations in mind. Second, to Carol's point as well, we aim to hire at least 50% women to implement our products and to provide hands-on training. Third, we monitor use and take feedback from users so that we can continue improving and making our products more accessible. There are many problems that as creative as we can be, we won't understand them. So we have to have the users demonstrating and communicating those problems to us. The demographic data of our data actually allows MLG to evaluate the impact of and to improve, improve upon sensitization efforts to reach underrepresented landowners, including women. So it's something that we're continuously designing around because if you're not then gender equity will not actually be achieved at all. Thank you. Maybe I can also make a quick comment, at least based on my experience in Rwanda when we were running out the national land reform program. I think over the period where we registered over 10 million parcels of land, we used over 100,000 people involved in the process across the country, and by and large, a good percentage of these were women. So during the program, we made a deliberate effort to make sure all groups were represented. For example, when we're holding meetings, some of the meetings were women only to address issues of women, or to make sure their voice is heard. When we are setting up committees, there was a minimum percentage of women that have to be on these land committees. When we were recruiting our data recorders, our parasaviors, we ensured there was equal representation of women. Even in the work we did, we constantly consulted with a gender monitoring office on issues of gender, and the result is clear to see. Today, when you look at the land ownership statistics in Rwanda, actually women only held parcels are more than those held by men, far from what used to be in the past. So there has to be a deliberate effort both in the process and actual activities that are undertaken during this program. Otherwise, the ability to use technology and push the process is as good if not better in certain areas than the counterparts. Thank you very much. Fantastic. Thank you. This next question is a really, really interesting question to those of you who have worked with blockchain or cryptography in support of land administration. The question is, to what extent does the use of these technologies help solve a really critical challenge of proving identity in the context of widespread lack of identity documentation. Thank you, Julia. This is Umar. I mean, when it comes to the discussion about blockchain in the context of Africa, I will take it with some question. Because we see really the challenge that land system is facing in Africa in lack of clarity on different regions and others, and we need the blockchain is just give you what you put inside. For me, we need to look at the basis for this in Africa and clarifying the land system. Right now we have a lot of conflicting interests on the land system, but also regimes, statutory and customary system. The question is how to harmonize those different view to get in a very coherent and coordinated system that can be captured by blockchain. I think that's quite for me, I recommend to really to go slowly in the context of Africa with blockchain, but also do the, you know, kind of preliminary research and analysis of that because I believe that we need to change policies. We need to need to the system is regulatory framework may offer that otherwise you create more conflict because we see land grabbing happening in many countries where you have people coming and just, you know, take land without, you know, do process these communities but also with the support of government. Those who are familiar with West Africa in Mali in Kati, where you have a disaster, you know, of the grabbing, you know, the land. I don't think you can talk about, you know, first registration on this particular context. At the end of the day, you are creating a lot of communities and deprivation from land right. This is my portion on blockchain in Africa, of course is subject to discussion but I think we are not there yet in Africa in the context of policy and maintenance system to really put things very sophisticated. Thank you very much. So I, I just wanted to pick on what Omar has just said. In just saying that I mean what we're talking about in the streamlining plan governance you're talking about three key elements. You're talking about land, which is the object, the parcel, you're talking about the party, who is the person or the organization owning the land and the rights. So our effort is to see how best can we connect the three. And Omar is coming from the rights issue which is really the critical part. Before you get to the measuring the plot which is the object and registering the individuals, you need to clarify those rights issues. And that takes a long period of time through policy reform. I mean when even we talk about the program in Rwanda, they fail to recognize the fact that this goes way back to the 90s. What people only record is what we did from 2008 2009 of 2013. But the process had been going on since 1999 when the policy was there was nationwide discussion consultations on how to handle and what does that mean to the people. So that process cannot be shortcut. You have to take it through and I think that's what Omar is mentioning. But at the end of it, these tools come in because once you have defined what the rights are, how they are connected, then you need to go to the next step of identifying the party who owns and blockchain comes in. You have to identify the parcel as observations come in for measuring the parcels. So all these tools are there but that fundamental basis fundamental work on the policies on the consultation on the definition of lies on the clarification is very, very critical. Thank you very much. And I wanted to just jump in and say, you know, identities, as we've already discussed here is an overarching challenge because in many cases people don't have verifiable identity that allows them to prove their ownership or interest in a property. And I will say in Rwanda we're using blockchain and PKI so it actually can be done with the right infrastructure. It's not a customized it's not a fit. It's not it's not useful for every circumstance but where there is the right infrastructure it is it is the right way to address any of the identity issues. It's key that you keep personal information off chain, but signatures on the chain. Those signatures are created using PKI so identity can be verified. It's very secure and trust it's a trustworthy and very secure way to prove identity. And it actually helps ensure the security of all parties interested in land. There are other identity solutions out there. SSI, which is also PKI based tapestry. It's a concept by New America. And you know there are other ID solutions that exist with varying levels of security and functionality, biometrics, cards, etc. But it goes back to my first point the right infrastructure has to be there to use blockchain as a solution. And just to reinforce what you were saying, I think the issue is not just about technology, as mentioned by Emmanuel, it's a really change to follow and the social dimension in the context of Africa is so deep and so important to take into consideration. Let's see where to start because we need to have frank discussion in Africa as well. We cannot just come in and out and bring another, you know, approaches which are not capturing the reality on the ground. That's the reason why we have 30 years of failure on land reform in Africa. Let's be frank and have a new starting point and look at the reality and see where to start and what are the fundamental we need to address before we get to the sophisticated part of things. Otherwise, we'll mess up again. Sorry about that. Thank you very much. I'm 100% with you. I mentioned earlier my family's from Sudan and my dad always says why can't we do all the things that you're doing at your company in Sudan and I'm like dad, very far, very far from that type of solution. Thanks so much for that discussion. I will turn to an observation from one of the audience members that in Africa in particular there have been a lot of small or local land titling initiatives that are locally started by aren't able to grow and scale to a national level or a sustainable level. And the question is, do you the panelists consider new technologies to be helpful in achieving this goal of scaling and sustainability. And I'll throw a second question of moderators prerogative of how do you if the answer is yes. How can you work to make sure that these actors have access both to the technologies and to the skills and support needed to maintain them. I'll jump in Julia. So I would say that technology was really pretty critical in helping to scale the master approach in Tanzania. And importantly, the iteration of the technology over time to try to make it more useful for the government of Tanzania to make sure that it was supportive of the first step in the process that village land use planning. And as well as then the next step which is the CCRO application process and the delivery of the CCROs. So I do think that the technology in this one case the technology was was helpful, and it helped that other donors were willing to also test out and help improve and and hopefully to scale the technology across the you know, into a to a larger extent and across the country. What so I think your second question is interesting too though it's like, how do you then help make sure that the technology is the right skills, the right skills are available or the right access to skills building is available for people who are going to use that. And I think that isn't really tricky and challenging question for public sector donors, but I think, you know, we're, we're interested to see what happens with the, the transition of the mass program in Tanzania from being a donor sponsored program to being kind of a fee for service program and, and then you're, you're almost adopting a kind of a market, right, you're kind of adopting a market oriented methodology and usually things are sustainable when they meet the test of the market. So we'll see what we'll see what happens over time but I think that test of the market is important and presumably that gives that users incentives to really understand the technology and continue to improve their skills and and further improve the technology over time. Thank you. Yeah, I also have a comment on that. There's no doubt that it makes a big difference. But without repeating myself, sorting out the soft elements of policy, then the mechanical elements of speed technology definitely makes it you also have to be very careful on how to apply. Yeah, am I clearly coming through. And then you all you cut out for about 30 seconds if you wouldn't mind just quickly repeating for the benefit of the audience, just about the last 30 seconds. Sorry, I just I was just saying that definitely technology is very critical for the downstream elements of this process, as long as you've sorted out the soft elements of policy, etc. I was just giving a simple example to show how you also need to adapt the technology. And I was giving example in a random where we had a debate of whether to use mobile tablets for recording parcels or actually printing out maps and drawing the boundaries on the papers. So our decision was let's use the papers because if you let the map sheet on the ground, and bring the villagers or the land owners there they can be able to participate better than having a gadget which they can't even touch. So you have to be very careful how you bring this technology but definitely it can make a big difference on the efficiency downstream. Thank you. Thank you. I'll turn to another observation and maybe I'll actually turn it back to you a manual. I think you might have something interesting to say about this and then to the other panelists to jump in as well and the observation is that oftentimes. First time land registration is funded through often through donor support, but then the challenge is with sustaining that system after that first effort is finished and the donor support goes away. So getting back to this point Omar that you made about the financial side of securing land tenure. So I'm curious. And then you all of course Rwanda's national land registration program is now you know happened now almost a decade ago so I'm sure that you've seen this experience of what's happening with how do you sustain the land registration and subsequent transactions. So I'm curious whether you could speak a little bit about the financial side of this question. And then Carol, Rania or Omar, if you have any insights as well please jump in. Thank you. Just make a quick comment to say that the issue of sustainability is not an easy one to bring up at the beginning of a program like that. And it was always debate between us and especially the development partners, because there's normally a push on the quantities of how many parcels you can be able to measure how many paper titles you can be able to get out without thinking what happens the moment all those things are there. I mean you begin assisting for example in Rwanda where National Registry had less than 20,000 titles that they were managing for all those years. All of a sudden you are pouring in over 10 million and you must have assisting to manage this because transactions will happen anyway. So even before you talk about the finances, sustainability is very critical but unfortunately people who are starting off it's a question they don't listen to very very critically. So they have been some chance successes in Rwanda but I want to admit that they are chance because they were not really properly worked out from the beginning. So the issue of finance is one of the simpler ones because the initial investment as I gather from Rwanda, which was over 60 million US dollars is due to be recovered by next year which a short period of time in terms of any investment. But there are many more aspects around that. The public sector, how many of us are going to manage these people, the skills that are required going forward. So all these things are very critical and very often investing in that time to do the sustainability plan. Politicians don't have time for that so you need to find a way of convincing them to listen to you that this is as important as the difference in next paper title that they are asking you to deliver. Thank you very much. Thank you Julia. I think building on what Emmanuel has said, I think this element of sustainability should be reflect early stage on the establishment or your learning information system. Unfortunately this is not happening. What type of business model do we need for the system to sustain itself. One experience when I spent five years in the Democratic Republic of Congo in post-accomplete area. And despite the vulnerability of people, people will come and ready to pay for securing their land rights, which means that the political will is there sometimes. No, the will is there from communities. I think what we need is an enabling system for that. If you look at many countries, the cost to get title or get document is so high in terms of transaction, you know, social transaction because you have a lot of corruption along the line, but also in terms of costing. What are the, you know, the maximum minimum price that you can put and people can afford and pay it? I think if you have one million people paying for the services, the system can sustain itself, but you need some safeguard system and some business model you can answer to this question. For me, the last point I can make is let's see what kind of business model we need to include in this early design of land project and program to make sure at least you are thinking about the sustainability element. Thank you very much. I'll be very brief, you know, sustainability. It has to be paperless. And to Omar's point, the will of the people is there. It is a reflection of the governments when they're not willing to really participate in the larger conversation of creating a sustainable future for their citizens. When I talked about infrastructure earlier, it's not just the land infrastructure, it's the infrastructure of the people. You know, if the people are willing to build a sustainable future, the governments that are willing to do that for their citizens are ready to move forward into a sustainable and cost effective future. Yeah, I would say, I think my colleagues have made excellent points here I think more is point about getting the business model right and thinking about sustainability early on is is critical. I think my experience is slightly different from Ronnie is I'm not sure that the willingness to pay is there everywhere. That makes sense right in some places the value of the land is higher people are much more willing to pay to protect or capture the value of their lands in some places maybe in some rural areas and particularly maybe in some places where security is perceived to be quite high without documentation. There may be somewhat less willingness to pay so I think also understanding like the context and providing the right solution in the context is critical so yeah it's really important to do this work particularly in peri urban and urban areas as we said earlier to help build the economy based for governments to deliver services but I'm not sure we should expect the same sort of outcomes in some areas where there just maybe less pressure on land, recognizing that pressure is increasing everywhere but in some places there's still is relatively less pressure compared to peri urban and urban locations. Thank you. I clarify when I say the will of the people it's not just to come in and pay the high costs, I mean, the will of the people to develop better systems, lower payments, zero visits. The times that I've gone out and had experiences with landowners, they really want to get their property, they want to get the title this means that they needed to be cost effective. If the will is there, the governments should recognize that and work to create more cost effective sustainable solutions, those two paired together are, you know, the only way that we can create a sustainable future. Thank you. I'm so glad that we're starting to talk about business models because, you know, actually that's something that New America is thinking about quite a bit we just released a series of briefs related to how different organizations and NGOs are working to finance land on demand land registration through base models and other models. I think it's a really important question. And I'll follow up with a question from the audience that sort of gets to the part of this conversation, which is, do the panel think that the solution to land rights registration in Africa should be provided as a public service, meaning that the government is providing systematic land registration, or is there a role for private or independent solutions that can offer security of tenure through, for example, decentralized registers. So I will open it up to the panel. Yeah, I think this is a very interesting question, you know, and yes, looking to different fronts of privatization we see in Africa over the last 30 years, of course, a lot of this utility service has been privatized and of course we need to look at different I mentioned when you talk about privatization of private sectors affordability, the level of revenue of communities as well. So if you have communities where you have or generally in Africa, 80% of people being in the informal sector and informal economy, I think those are some parameters they take into consideration. A certain point as well, take into consideration the nature of land, which is on the domain of sovereignty. I think it should be service delivery from the central government to local government and going touching now to the communities, because right now I think what opportunity we have in Africa is how you can build on the decentralization process to make it close as you know land service delivery to communities and it takes a Uganda is looking into this model Zambia is looking at this model with the role of traditional authorities and others. So at the end of the day for me the service delivery as part of the role of state is very government is very important and that way as well we can answer some transparencies and some guaranteed equity from communities members. And these two premature to talk about privatization is particularly because as mentioned by Emmanuel, you have a lot of implications, you know, on this in terms of protections, but at the same time, in terms of decision making from the central government for me. One question we need to take is really the decentralization system at later with land governance and how to help communities to play better role and greater role on this land administration of their own land. Thank you very much. Yeah, I also think this is a really interesting question and as Omar says there are increasing examples of non state provided service delivery and that that's really interesting to see and of course Medici is one example of that. I think in it may be a point that we should also note is that in many of many African countries particularly and then in countries where there are indigenous populations. There, there is another set of authority that exists right and these and so understanding what is it that customary leadership or traditional leaders want and how can they deliver effective land tenure security. So they're meeting the needs of their constituents is also important in that system may exist side by side with a formal sector system and so I think, you know, an important question is understanding both how is running was saying earlier how to deliver what it is the constituents want whether they're in urban peri urban settings or under customary land governance system, meeting their needs, protecting their rights, providing them with sufficient levels of privacy doing that in a cost effective way. Some of that can almost certainly be delivered by the private sector or the non state sector, but ultimately is more points out right virtually every country in Africa is the ultimate title holder of the land. And so it is going to be critically important that land information systems continue to to provide to be probably managed by those government actors and so we can hopefully play a role in supporting partners to over time. It's been a long process but over time deliver more responsive systems to their constituents which is also something Ronnie always getting at earlier. Thank you. I think there's room for both. Thank you very much Julian maybe also a quick comment. My take on that is not far from what Omar says, in the sense that especially when it comes to fast registration. I think fast registration, I feel there is a responsibility for the public sector support the process. But depends again on the country, because if I talk about one, when we approach systematic registration, the reasons were different. People talk about revenue correction talk about rights hours was more political issue, looking at our history looking at stability and the, the role of learning the whole process, we felt this has to be fixed. And because of that greater good for the political stability of the country, then there is an imperative on the government really take it up and make sure it is delivered. But even alongside that the support of the private sector was critical, because some of the statistical elements some of the technology, it needs to come and work alongside the government. But then later on, as you come to transaction improvement of the system, I think the private sector can take the role bigger role and government goes in the backside when the foundation is already there. Thank you. Fantastic. Well, we have come to the end of our questions. We have a few minutes left. I would just like to note that as you exit before you exit the webinar, you'll be asked to take a short survey. Please do complete that survey because it helps land portal improve the quality of these great webinars. So before closing, I would like to ask each panelist to very briefly provide any final closing thoughts, please keep your comments to about 30 seconds. We'll start with Carol, then move to Rania, then Emmanuel and close with Omar. Over to you, Carol. Thank you, Elia. A very quick thank you to Land Portal, Mibici and New America Foundation for supporting the portal. It's been a pleasure to be here with Emmanuel, Omar, and Rania today. I think my final words would be there is just such a lot for us to be encouraged about with regard to land technology. As long as I think we consider the potential for some disparate impacts and make sure that our processes are inclusive, it's a bright future for us in the land sector. Thank you. I'm pretty sure I was supposed to go next. I think we've talked so many of these talked so many talked about so many of these issues. The great thing about this group is this is not a talk is cheap team, everyone here so involved in creating the right solutions and finding the right ways to build the infrastructure appropriate to streamline good land governance through technology, digitizing records and engendering trust and security and data by diminishing human error is critical to the work that MLG does. I hope in the future I can partner with everyone here to create new opportunities in many of the countries that we operate in. Thank you. Thank you, Elia. I might just be a big comment to really thank Mibici for organizing this platform, because I believe, I mean, again, from my experiences, we might come to this problem of stream running land governance with a lot of academic knowledge. The next one to the project is actually what you learn from colleagues is what you learn from experiences that actually matters. So engaging like this helps us learn and I believe from here I take one or two things. So greater engagement being open to learning and having an open mind to different approaches is very critical and that's why I'm very grateful for having been part of this forum and look at more engagement with the panelists and other people within our space. So thank you so much. Thank you very much, Julia and Mibici and those who initiate this webinar. I'm really glad to come back to this circle after two years of disconnection is my new responsibility but always exciting, you know, to see the level of engagement, you know, from different perspectives to really, you know, support the land governance element in Africa. As I mentioned it, we shouldn't be shy in really bringing innovation and get into new path on the way we see, you know, this land governance because it's needed without this element of land. I'm not sure that we can, you know, alleviate poverty and reach the sustainable development goal. Connecting land governance and technology. Yes, Africa need technology, of course, and we see a lot of breakthrough on technology here in Africa. Kenya, you know, this M-Pesa payment, which you are now doing, you know, all over the world now on, you know, electronic payment. I think those are some innovation, but we need to understand that technology is an ennobly and not an end itself. What are those ingredients behind it that we need to address to get to this point of efficiency of the technology is very important. And I believe that if you work together and leveraging on the global working group and as an institution to bring together our head around and not going into competitions, this will help, you know, beneficiary because at the end of the day, we still have people struggling to protect their land rights and I think I'm very glad that we are doing this partnership and let's move it on. Thank you very much, Julia, for your facilitations. Well, thank you very much to all of you and I will close this webinar by reading out loud a comment that was just dropped into the chat. It was so exciting to have you guys as very brave panelists. And I really appreciate that comment because this panel really, you know, wrestled with some difficult questions and had a very frank discussion which is always so helpful to have. I congratulate all of you. Thank you for sharing your time with us. Thank you to the audience members for attending and enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Carol. Thank you to Rania and thank you. Emanuele, we see Nairobi, inshallah. Bye-bye, everybody. Bye-bye. Thank you. All right. Let's meet. Organization. Thank you.