 Hi, my name is Sandy Baird and I'm a citizen activist and I'm here with another colleague of mine by the name of Kurt Mehta who's an attorney and also not much of an activist But a really good scholar an active active an active scholar and Very interested in politics and political affairs and we're here today to talk about and also Kurt was born in India. That's right You didn't live there very long though. Did you ten months ten months and then came to the states is now a citizen Of course of the United States and a practicing attorney And we're here today to talk about the coronation of the new monarch in England from various points of view Given the fact that India was a colony for a long time, but I want to remain remind our audience that was so were we so we're away and and I just want to talk about the Problems that maybe people see and having monarchs still rule them or maybe not maybe not quite certain about your view But also the view of the monarch in other countries like India. So what's going on? Did you watch the coronation? I did not watch the coronation live. I did read about it in advance of the coronation as well as Subsequently and I did see a lot of clips on YouTube of the coronation partly out of curiosity and partly because I knew we were going to be discussing this on our on our program so what I Again, I was shocked at the kind of slavish attention that the United States gave to this Because I don't I'm not certain that most Americans understand what the United States really did in 1776 between 1776 and 1881 when the United States threw those guys off our backs and became a republic and so I'm not certain why Americans seem so still fascinated with this. Well, I mean, I think it's partly because the historical background demographically speaking of our country the US it was largely composed of enslaved Africans and People that came from Britain You know that claim that they this part of the country, right in this part of the country That's correct. Yeah in this part of the country and then you know, then we had people that came from France also Right to the north right right to the north of us But I think that historical link between the United States and Britain during the course of the world wars Anytime after in part the the war of 1812 and The only time we were invaded correct except for 9-11, right? That's correct. Yeah, where American soil was actually Violated violated. Yeah American soil as we know it not talking about Pearl Harbor, which was actually not a Hawaii was not a state exactly when the Japanese attacked in 1941 but I think there's there's always been a this cross-Atlantic or transatlantic relationship between Great Britain the United States. I mean we share a language. Mm-hmm. We share a culture an overall arching culture You know so There's there's always going to be that link and then of course as I mentioned, you know the the relationships We had during the first and the second world war We're on the same side exactly a friend of mine called me though yesterday and she was kind of making the point which was a bit unusual for her and To say that the national anthem of England is God save the king, correct? God same tune as America. Yeah, I mean my country just of thee versus God save the isn't it something it's essentially. Yeah. Yeah, I mean song song. I guess yeah We weren't terribly creative given no, no, no, maybe we were making a point. Maybe maybe maybe we were making Monarchical point or we could have been making a point stating that you know, we are kind of still brothers and Do you think most Americans really feel that way? I I think the The commonality in language Religion to is quite yeah to a lesser extent now I think there are more Catholics in the US than Protestants, but Britain, you know with the exception of Northern Ireland, I think you know being largely a Protestant country Demographically, it's it's you know, we are different. We're more diverse in that respect with a number of Catholics We have but I mean I want to you know Go back to what I said about the first and the second world war This was further reiterated after the September 11th attacks when Prime Minister labor part prime minister at the time Tony Blair came to the United States and Was in the Rose Garden with George W. Mm-hmm, and they further Reiterated the strong historical ties between the two nations. Yeah, and Britain although largely the you know the Iraq and the Afghanistan Wars were Manned or womaned by by American soldiers I would say you know Britain probably had the second largest contingent and In both Iraq and Afghanistan. Well, but that could be also because Britain especially after World War two remained The colonial kind of boss or of those two countries in particularly and in of yeah Iraq they had a large play. Yeah, Afghanistan Yeah, Afghanistan they left kind of what their tails between their legs 1800s Part of the so-called great game between Britain and Russia over Afghanistan and nobody won that right But so I mean my point is you know we you know whether there are people that like it or not You know we do have very strong links with great Britain. No, I'm not I understand that but I want to go back to something That you said yes, but the country is deeply divided and always has been and I'll tell you why which one which one This one okay, because we are also part of Latin America. Yeah, all right And I want to go back to something that I taught at Burlington College for many years I taught at Burlington College and I constructed a class Which I wasn't I mean I had thoughts about it, but I didn't realize how deep That I was thinking about it and I called the class the creation of the Americas Yeah, all of the Americas not just the United States, right, but all of the Americas including South America the Caribbean and Kind of not so much with Canada, and I'll tell you why so all of Basically United States and South and also in the Caribbean and these are why so-called new world the new world Right, but I'm deliberately kind of excluding for this moment, Ottawa. Okay, Ottawa not Quebec Okay, all right, so my my thoughts at the time had been fueled by Lourdes Perez who was a colleague of ours years to at the University of Havana in Cuba one time on the 4th of July Prior to me teaching this class. She actually called me from Havana on the 4th of July She said congratulations on your great struggle for independence Okay, and the reason she said she said that revolution meant so much to the Americas and I thought Probably that's true. Probably that US anti-colonial revolution Was really part of a new world struggle against the problems of the old world colonialism monarchy feudalism the Lord the idea of Lords and Ladies, okay So when you think about it after the our revolution, yeah, it was really quite radical. It was yeah, it Said we're not gonna have monarchy anymore. We could have had monarchy We could have chosen something like Australia something like Canada Staying within the English Empire keeping that government, but having more or less of a constitutional monarchy But we didn't right the United States separated from England separated from monarchy and was really a very radical revolution because it also Did got rid of the idea of the House of Lords it got weird of privilege Birth privilege and established a republic. Okay, wait a minute from a jury standpoint I completely agree which is extremely important because You know very important, right? I mean, I think the facts on the ground were probably a bit different But that being said it was a step in the right direction. Absolutely privilege right at least our laws We're not constructed with to favor it with yeah, and it being inherent exactly at birth Okay, because okay a couple of other things he also in talking to Lourdes and then further study on my part I realized what an example the American Revolution was to the rest of the hemisphere 1789 Revolution in France France in 1789 became a republic not a monarchy member They cut that guy's head off. Yeah, okay, so France in 1789 almost more important 1804 Haiti yeah, Haiti in its anti-colonial struggle against France becomes a black Slave Republic right all throughout Latin America by 1830 all of South America had become republics and had rejected the king of Spain or Portugal I think I Think that a lot of that a lot of countries were very much inspired. Yes by our founding fathers Yeah, did yep and believed in at least on paper Some of them really believed in some of them some of them. Yeah, yeah to you know Be fair They did in fact believe that yeah, I mean interesting side point you mentioned Haiti countries in Latin America There's been a significant amount of research done by an author of Scottish descent His name is William Dali Rumpol. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I know that who writes a fair amount about South Asia Mm-hmm, and he mentioned that not something that what you're gonna learn about in American history class or even in a Class that's being taught in about the Americas in Latin America, but a lot of the founding fathers were actually in touch To the extent that you could be back then with a lot of local rulers in India And they corresponded with one another and they knew what was going on on the ground over there India with respect to exploitation by British colonialists largely the East India Company and specifically did not want that level of exploitation to take place here and There was a significant amount of correspondence between local rulers in India and the founding fathers Which actually continued up until you know the war of 1812 Uh-huh when we were invaded again by the British again by the English, right, right, right, so so it went beyond The confines of the 13 colonies or even the Americas believe or not There was actually to the I don't know how mail worked back in the 1700s But there was I suppose yes, right But there was actually correspondence going to South Asia between some of our founding fathers and local rulers there that wanted to get rid of the British influence in that part of the world well before we talk about that Let's say what I thought the greatest achievements of the American Revolution were first of all is the Constitution I think that was the greatest achievement, but yeah, okay So but what the United States kind of put on the record was a country that rejected monarchy now Why is that important because in a republic which we still are? Sovereignty is with the people the people vote on who is going to rule them In other words, there's government by consent, right correct in a monarchy. There isn't such a thing The monarch gets born he could be as he could be an idiot as some monarchs have been accused of being I mean You know an interesting point, you know, we talked about the commonality between us and Great Britain one of the things You know, I mentioned specifically was language. Yes King George spoke German He well, not only did he speak German. He didn't really speak English. Oh really? He only spoke German. Yeah, there were two two Georges that what one are you talking about? Well George the first I'm not talking about the one who was Elizabeth's father Okay, we're talking about during the time of our country's independence, okay They they came from the house of Hanover Hanover Germany, right? And they Did not really speak a whole lot of English Right, yeah, and I think the first George if anything, you know did not speak much English at all Mm-hmm. I wonder about Henry the eighth No, but he I don't know about it, but anyway, yeah, yeah, so I think it was a very first world war Yeah, they spoke I think that's when they changed their name right from Battenberg to Mount Batten because it was about to To Windsor I think that they changed it to Windsor also to also yeah because of the anti-German sentiment during the First World War exactly because Great Britain was fighting Germany and The Royal Family was looked at as a German institution because it largely was and to continue Its ability to reign over, you know And English-speaking country they decided to change their names to you know not so You know on our shores here, you know, we changed, you know, Frankfurt is the hot dogs and a couple of other things like that But in Great Britain in order to ensure their survival Because kings were getting Getting kicked out all over the place in Europe During that time frame the the British Royal Family, you know changed their they tried to you know Kind of anglicized their Germanic roots Yes, I think to survive I think it's really important and also in the glorious revolution in England in 1688 wasn't much of a revolution Actually in my way of thinking but I thought then that they imported a protestant from the Netherlands I think an orange man That's where the whole idea of orange comes from to be the king of England England went through a brief period of time as a Republic, but then Charles Yeah, it was a restoration of a Cromwell. Yeah, there was a rejection. Yeah, but this but the thing I think most Americans and most I Think people who would regard themselves as fairly left or radical don't Understand is how important that revolution really was because it turned on its head the whole notion of sovereignty Sovereignty in a Republic comes from people like us regardless of how little power We think we have at least we have the power of a vote England does not and a monarchy does not you get who was born Into that family and that's it and remember the other revolutionary thing was our Constitution was written Most constitutions these days are But but in Great Britain, they don't have a written Constitution exactly exactly so a lot of it's done by by custom Exactly, which can be changed Constitutions can do right but with a with a two-thirds majority, which is often quite The French have a written Constitution and that most countries do Does India for instance, yeah, yeah, it was based on the American Constitution But was the Indian Revolution or their struggle from independence was successful by 1947 is that correct? Right, right Was there a written Constitution before that when it was a colony of England it was it was run by British law Okay, so I was in place right exactly that was the law of the land The other thing that I struck me and some of my friends also was the idea of there's no separation It doesn't appear to me of church and state in England either right the Anglican church is a state church, which is true in a lot of countries in Europe I mean most most countries. I mean again many many of these countries are a lot more secular You know on the ground then then we are as a country in terms of the number of people that attend church Or observe religious holidays I think we have a much higher percentage with the exception perhaps of Ireland in terms of the number of people that you know Our church going in Western Europe and the United States That being said most of these countries most of the countries in Scandinavia, you know Recognize Lutheranism right as as the state church exactly as a state church. So Great Britain it was very clear if for people to get back to the coronation. Yes If people were able to watch the coronation about the strong links between Between church and state exactly even with you know the fact that they at this point They have an Indian Hindu Prime Minister was reading from the the King James version of the Bible They were I didn't I didn't see that during the coronation, you know to greet the new sovereign essentially So didn't the words to come from the Bible a lot or come from? Yeah Religious statements of the Anglican church, I mean in certain things certain things were dialed down a little bit I mean the ceremony in general, you know, I think was less less Protestant and less white intentionally to try to Make the institution appear or try to appear a little more Inclusive with Britain as a multicultural multi religious society now So I think there were certain attempts to Deemphasize some of the roots, but then other things were not de-emphasized Intentionally I think the thing about England that so misunderstood also is that you know I want to get back to this religious thing is that England is a democracy It is in no way a democracy It is a monarchy and it's I guess Constitutional in that it has a House of Parliament, right? Which I suppose in some ways reigns in the power of the monarchy But then there's a House of Lords which is a feudal kind of notion actually again People get into that House of Lords by birth not by election and but you know that being said I mean I know our founding fathers were trying to move away. Yes from that You mentioned specifically the House of Lords, but up until I think it was sometime in the 1800s Our senators were not elected. Correct, but they are now they are now they are now But at the time of the design of the country, you know Legally speaking right they came from the state legislatures didn't correct, right, but they were not elected, right? Yeah, so there was a progressive movement in this country that Demanded and got a progressive reform of the Senate so that they know our dr. American but but the point is about the United States is that it was the earliest revolution Against all this nonsense of privilege against the idea of a state church. So of course it wasn't as Cut and dry as it could have been but on paper it largely was which was radical in and of itself at that time Exactly, that's what I think too and there's a very Historian that's still alive that wrote a great deal about this in his name is Gordon Wood and he wrote a book that I was very Influential in my life called the radicalism of the American Revolution And I don't think most Americans understood most Americans I would put that I've associated with who are basically on the left and they considered the American Revolution I think is very very imperfect particularly because it didn't abolish slavery, right? and That's a huge problem. Certainly. However, there were people Even among the founding fathers that wanted to even abolish slavery. I mean Hamilton was not a Hamilton was and it was an abolitionist pretty much. I mean he was born He was actually saying kids in St. Croix and kids those islands and he was able to see the brutality of slavery very Close up very early on and was you know a lifelong abolitionist Well, so are the Adams family though one of our first presidents one of the first I don't know what they called themselves federalists at the time I mean there was a big split between people who are federalists who are in the anti federal and the anti federalists But the federalists were against slavery Right largely and the anti federalists were also against slavery, but they were also against the centralization of power as well Yeah, I mean there, you know, I know a lot of people will look at what we're saying and Probably point out a lot of the flaws flaws in the inconsistencies because many of these You know Men at the time were also, you know huge landowners and slave owners and plant and owned Plantations and therefore, you know in many cases owned, you know hundreds of slaves sure Including George Washington himself putting George Thomas Jefferson correct. However That argument is always made The argument though that is not as successfully being made is that there were a lot of Our founding fathers who were against slavery and who wanted it to be abolished And then there was a big compromise in the debates in Philadelphia So it's I think that American history would always show throughout our history a real dialectic At the time it's also important just in terms of context and start yes It is the coronation sure that I don't think a Britain outlawed slavery until 1807 No, but that was outlawing the slave trade the slave trade the United States did not join that no Yeah, but I think after 1808 on Paper I know it was done there were slave ships that came from Africa here Yeah, but supposedly the the idea was they were not going to bring new slaves Right guess why? Yeah, because we had an internal market at that right. We had a significant way Yeah, we didn't need the international slave trade by that point. Yeah, I'm not denying the Contradiction I'm not denying at all the contradiction between Those of our founding fathers who wanted a republic and we wanted freedom, right? and Also those founding fathers who wanted to continue slavery because a lot of them too and that Resulted in a very famous compromise called the three-fifths rule. You remember that right, which allowed Slaves to be counted for representation as only three-fifths of a human person But that debate led to a whole debate about slavery as well And then there was a compromise which the north compromised on by saying we need to keep this union together. Yeah Yeah, that's what I think happened is that because well, that's what it was all about. Yeah Yeah, I mean because yeah, the south was certainly ready to move on exactly, you know And I think there were a lot of attempts to compromise Unfortunately at the expense of human lives, right, but To try to keep the to try to keep the country together Never it never hit me why in other words until I understood that what Lincoln was all about in a way too because if the south had been successful and Not only maintaining slavery, which they were but also at go if if the north hadn't compromised and kept the south in The union guess what would have happened south might have gone on its own way And then we would have been retaken over by the English about you. Yeah, well, I mean the interesting point Is during the course of the Civil War? Yes, the Great Britain Was largely on the part on the side of the South even though this great Britain at that point had abolished slavery Right and the slave trade They were you know partly. I mean the British. Yeah, there were commercial reasons There was always a a British theory to It's foreign policy was always about dividing conquer and that that was that was significantly weakened the the new country the United States By splitting it in half, right? We would have just been six seven states in the north versus Bigger populations in the south. I would guess because certainly because of slavery Okay, I want to ask you a question though as being born in India So why have the British kept the monarchy so firmly? Is it a symbol of some sort? I mean, I think honestly, it's It's largely symbolic at this point, you know, what does it serve to do a symbol of what Empire? It's tradition in large part. I mean look the people, you know people that go to visit Great Britain a good part of it I mean, you know, my parents my parents were you know over the weekend my father specifically was criticizing, you know Why do they have this, you know, what what what do they still have this monarchy? Yeah, my parents father Yeah, but yeah, my parents and I had to remind my father that Didn't you guys go to Great Britain and didn't you spend a bunch of money to get tickets to go see? Buckingham Palace and the changing of the guard and all that stuff and he said well, yeah So I said well, that's you know, I think it's I think there's tourism I think it brings up interest about Great Britain when people get involved in the drama of the royal family, whether it's Princess Diana or who's dating whom or Markle Andrew, you know and his you know prince Andrews, you know Legal issues with Jeffrey Hepstein So I think it makes you know, it's it's a it's a living soap opera. Mm-hmm So I think that's you know, that's why they continue to have it in large part I don't think governmentally it has much of anything You know the well they can call off parliament as they as they did in Canada even right, right? So called pro-rogate right, right, you know in terms of you know I and I think it was a symbol of unity during during the world wars also That they looked at the sovereign, you know, so I don't I don't have any problems with a largely it appears to be a largely ceremonial post But I think it is even though historically it wasn't I think to me as And I guess I favor in general most of the world's revolutions I think that the British monarchy is a symbol of real conservatism of real like don't go there to a republic don't go there to sovereignty you people keep this Symbol of order and privilege it is a huge symbol to me of privilege Unlike the Americas like we have privileged people. I don't know if I Privilege we have people with enormous advantage especially especially I would use that word to say Probably better than privilege. I think most Many white people are born, but I'm not even I'm not even talking about you know You certainly have an argument there, but I'm not even talking about demographically I'm talking about people that have a lot of money that were born into wealth Yes, of that color or background are at a distinct advantage. That's what I said are yes, not regardless of their color Right. I agree about advantage. Yeah, but not the way a person is born and it's going to be the monarch Could be an idiot. Yeah, you know at least somebody who's born with money. Yes, they have an enormous advantage However, nobody in this country is born destined to be a Monarch remember the month what it means ruled by one, right? That's what monarchy is ruled by one Born person certainly, but I mean, you know look historically. I mean there have been Benevolent monarchs, you know in countries. I mean, you know, there was a famous story You know during the Second World War that when the when the Germans invaded Denmark Denmark had a king Yeah, his name is King Christian oddly enough and When the the Nazis took over they ordered their Jewish citizens in Denmark to have to wear a star David So the you know the king by decree Said everyone's gonna wear a star David. Yeah, you know including him. I mean, yeah, right You can't have you know benevolent monarchs. I know historically the British were not but I think largely it's a ceremonial Position so I my I just let them have their silly party and you know wearing, you know, these ridiculous-looking Party they want. Yeah Halloween to me large. I think that they are still a symbol of enormous privilege And that the world doesn't need any more symbols of privilege and of keeping order Among a bunch of fractious colonies, you know anyway, but there was sort of one of the thing that I was gonna Say about That but I but I think what the American Revolution really did establish was a type of rough equality People can overcome that equality by earning or by inheriting piles of money But the principle in this country is still equal rights under the law. That's the idea. Yeah I mean has it been perfect not even close not yeah, but but at least that was the governing idea and Still is and still is yeah sort of yeah And I think largely what the you know the concept of the American dream is is based on and that's what Lincoln's Okay, final thought there was a second revolution in this country I want people reminded of also first revolution get rid of the monarchy Establish a republic and a constitution second revolution was to get rid of slavery, right? And many historians called that also a revolution to sort of culminate the ideas of The u.s. Revolution and I guess that's the way I see it also But Lincoln had the same problems that many of our founding fathers did he had to compromise Right you'll remember that but in the end slavery was abolished and the question was whether Lincoln would have proceeded with an abolition of slavery had there been a Larger compromise. Yes, could be the south because yeah the abolition of slavery the Emancipation Proclamation, you know many have contended Was largely military strategy Yes, but millist right because it was it was signed during the course of the Civil War and the idea was that it would create havoc in the south if all of a sudden you have all these new free people just you know well Possibly sabotaging You know the this the southern war effort while you're I agree and I don't agree Yes, there were states that stayed with the union that were pro-slavery and had slaves No, they were neutral or neutral. They were neutral. You won't know why Lincoln said quote I Have to have Kentucky on my side and West Virginia and maybe West Virginia probably also And I don't believe Missouri either maybe was in the part of the Confederacy. Although I'm not sure I have to have Kentucky I have to have Kentucky and I'm hoping that God's on my side because he did have to if he could cut off those states From joining the Civil War that was his military strategy if they had become part of the Confederacy It might have the north might have lost the other thing was the Emancipation Proclamation only applied I know to those to the rebelling states Exactly did not apply to the states that remain neutral I know that and on essentially on the side of the north I know continue to have slavery But that was what you're saying is correct It was military strategy more than anything He could not have won that war if he hadn't adopted that strategy Okay, but the Emancipation Proclamation is really important because he got to remember the struggle that took place After the Civil War, which was the 13th Amendment. Yeah, he was part of that he made sure at that point Right, and that was the only time it could have been passed because I don't even think the southern states were in the Congress at that point Were they I'm not I'm not certain. I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think so In fact, they were on their way or something like that but the 13th 14th and 15th amendments But they the 13th was passed would link him the 14th. He was already dead. Yeah, he'd already been Assassinated yes, and the reason he was assassinated was that he had fought that war I think his goal was always to eliminate slavery However, he had to pick a strategy that would win that fight and that's why the 1863 Emancipation also allowed black soldiers to be in the war Yeah Anyway, you know the great movie on this subject your versey glory now. Oh my god God to see it. Okay. It's the story of the Massachusetts 54th. You know what that is Yeah, that was the first black regiment that went off to fight in the Civil War right after the Emancipation in 1863 amazing It's amazing. It's the best movie But I'm not I'm not also saying it from a historian's point of view because it was criticized by a very famous Civil War historian who said it was also accurate Glory is fairly accurate. Is that right? Yes. I have a copy sometime. We should see it together Okay, what does that mean a copy of what of the movie, right? No, I have the movie You know, I'm saying in 2023 terms to this is to VHS. What do you think? That's what I thought I'm just trying to explain to our young viewers what a copy means. Yeah, okay All right, so but I don't know how many young viewers that we have in the first one But thank you very much Kurt for welcome brilliant discussion. I guess of monarchy. Thank you Thank you Sandy too bad for England. Okay, let them have their party look like Halloween to me