 Excellent, so good afternoon everybody and welcome to CSIS. Thank you all for joining us and For braving the DC paranoia about snow Or snow that's not really snow, but that causes snow days Anyway, I'm very thrilled to have Adriana Lopez here with us today Adriana is the sister of Leopoldo Lopez who is an opposition leader who has been imprisoned in Venezuela Since this time last year you may have heard of his interview last week with CNN in Spanish If not, I suggest you check it out on YouTube I met Adriana through my friend Tom Caracco Who has known Leopoldo since they were both students at Kenyon College and we're sort of doing this with Kenyon So we're really appreciative of Kenyon's Choosing us to do this as well, but before I turn it to Adriana I just want to provide a little context for today's event at this point Venezuela is mired in social Economic and political crisis the crisis has been building for some time But particularly since last year when protests spread across the country reflecting popular dissatisfaction with the declining economy and Venezuela's increasingly repressive government Dozens died during last year's protest and earlier this week We saw the first casualty of this year's protests a 14 year old student a 14 year old boy Shot by the police in an anti-government demonstration Last week Venezuela an intelligent intelligence agents Arrested Caracas mayor and opposition leader Antonio Levesma Alleging that he was plotting with the United States to overthrow Maludo's government in this context the protests have resurged with inflation over 60% Scarcity at 80% Maludo's approval rating is under one quarter And Venezuela's are unhappy and they're demanding change the environment in the country is nothing but nothing short of toxic and It is with all of this in mind that I'm happy that we have Adriana with us today to give us a sense of the situation Her brother faces in prison. She'll probably provide her insights into the political dissatisfaction that's so widespread in Venezuela at the moment also Joining us is Jared Gensler the international lawyer representing Leopoldo Lopes who will participate in today's discussion as well And I thank you for being with us today Before we start I want to remind you all that we're on the record this afternoon and that we're webcasting this event live To our online audience other media outlets have joined us as well After Adriana Speaks and I think we'll get Jared involved as well. We'll have a Q&A And this is a topic that's near and dear to a lot of folks here So when you do have an opportunity to ask a question You know try to be as brief as you can so we can get as many as we can so With that in mind I'm gonna pass it over to you Adriana and and we'll start from there So, thank you. Thank you Carl. Sure. And thank you everybody for being here Leopoldo's younger youngest sister My six years, but we are actually very close We're very similar in different ways and and I and I think of Leopoldo as a mentor and I I really admire him one thing I tell people right off the bat is that Everything that Leopoldo has done and did particularly last year and and how events unfolded is absolutely coherent with the way that Leopoldo is Leopoldo is a man of very Deep convictions and he's a man that is very clear in his positions he does not define himself in the gray areas and actions like what he did Last February 18th to demonstrate that he he fights for what he believes and he doesn't waver and I think that if anything has happened this year is just reaffirm to us as a family and to himself that that's the person that that he is and that's the right person to be I saw him recently three weeks ago actually three days before he had his last Requisa when they came into his cell and took him away and put him in solitary confinement and I had not seen him since he had been in jail and the first thing he said he said I'm doing well I've been preparing myself for this for a long time And what he meant by that is that he has been persecuted by the Chavez government earlier and now by Maduro's So he's had the chance to think that this was a possibility and he has internalized what that meant and with that he has used the time to really focus on Spiritual growth intellectual growth and working on on what he sees as his political Economics social plan for for the future. He is a public servant. That's the one thing that defines him a Lot of people have asked why didn't he leave the country going exile or remain in hiding? I don't think I Think of that scenario and I and I see a very saddened individual somebody that would be trapped by The wrong decision so when I saw Leopold though I saw the person that I know his eyes were bright his smile was was big but his big charismatic Smile that people recognize him by and he was just he knew that he was doing the right thing He said it was it's been very hard. The hardest thing has been to be separate from his children He has little children five and two There were four and one when he went to jail That's like any human being that's just that you know the human piece is hard You know I had a child he wasn't there for that birth my sister got married. He was not there My father turned 70 years old. He wasn't there. So he's missing. You know we miss him But we we support him. We are with him and he's alive. We are all as a family working on his behalf Everybody has been doing different things But we have really taken it at heart to make sure that people know who Leopoldo is because by knowing who Leopoldo is you know about Venezuela and Another important thing about Leopoldo's action is that Leopoldo is a symbolic prisoner Leopoldo was speaking on behalf of millions of people in Venezuela that don't have a voice Leopoldo has the privilege of having a platform that people listen to and By caring about Leopoldo you care about other political prisoners and and that's really one of the missions that we have as a family Is to ensure that that voice is heard Can you can you you know you you've talked a lot about sort of the the personal dimension, right? It's your brother, right? I mean people talk about the political side and obviously there's a huge context here and what people are suffering and and people are fighting and Venezuela are very you know Sensitive passionate things Can you talk a little bit about your brother's condition? How how how they treated him? You talked about his psychological condition a little bit. How is his health in general? I Saw Leopoldo well He's very thin, but he's very strong now he Fortunately, he has not been tortured like other people in Venezuela have that we don't know Who or how or what has happened? We know that people are being tortured. Leopoldo has been tortured in a different way He is getting a lot of psychological torture so to speak When they punish him without reasons they you know His children show up to see him and they say you can't come in his punished why well He's just punished so you know two weeks go by and he can't see his family The first six months of his imprisonment. He was not able to leave his cell He they took him out in the mornings at six in the morning for one hour And that's all the daylight he got and he had no interactions with any of the inmates or Any other people other than his direct family? They have done things you might have read about this where they punished him by throwing escrim and a urine Into his cell and cutting the water and electricity so that he couldn't clean up So those are the type of tortures that they do to him when I went to visit him I was not allowed to see him three times He was just in the last bit that I was able to see him just little things that they do Because they knew that he really wants to see him and it see me so that was upsetting But they have really punished him a lot right now. He's in solitary confinement again in a two-by-two cell And it is detrimental to his health because he cannot see the daylight for four days in a row and and you know a lot of folks in That cover Venezuela are very familiar with the story But there's a lot of people that don't know very much about him Don't know why he's in jail And there's a lot of folks who also wonder what does the government fear? About Leopoldo. I mean, why is he such a threat? Well, that's sort of the last question first. I think the government fears a person that has no fear Leopoldo is absolutely fearless and if anybody doubts that then they haven't been paying attention And I think it comes back to what I said He has a very deep conviction of what is right and by having such clarity. He is not afraid To confront the government and call out what's wrong So why is he in prison is because he was in his discourse and his actions Calling the government out on the things that are bad with the system From an economic and a social standpoint and the details are known to everybody He was supporting student protests on February 12th and he was Calling for nonviolent peaceful protests and when it was over he told people to peacefully leave the stage and so to speak and Then you know, they set him up and they're they're trying him for for inciting violence through his discourse that's what supposedly his main tried for and Things have gotten pretty rough in minutes when I think they're pretty violent Do you think that that Leopoldo faces bigger risks when he's out of jail? well, so it's interesting to If we if we go back to the week When Leopoldo was in hiding Leopoldo, this is an interesting detail. So the protest that I was talking about on February 12th he Leaves the the place of the protest at around two in the afternoon The deaths happened between two and three in the afternoon at at 9 p.m The government had issued a warrant for his arrest blaming him for this death There was definitely not enough time to pull all the evidence that would point to Leopoldo as the Actor intellectual material of this event. So this was obviously a frame so he goes into hiding after a press conference and in those days There was a lot of talk what to do what the options were in One of those nights the government visited my family It was very late at night my sister-in-law and the children were staying with my parents. They knock on the door My father says who is it and a boy says we're looking for Leopoldo Lopez and my father says well I'm here and he opens the door and sees men in masks with long arms immediately closes the door and They say no we are looking for Leopoldo Lopez and says no I'm here No, we're looking for the other Leopoldo Lopez and my father says okay Well wait, and you know he gets he makes sure that the other mind you this is a man who's about to be seven year old At 70 years old my mother is 68 My sister-in-law and two children. That's it. There's nobody else at home So he sell it. You know he says just you know go go go in in the living room and he lets The people in they did not have a warrant for search Search warrant my father asked them to please take the masks off because it was extremely scary and They there was a moment when The president of the National Assembly met with my family and one of the things that he was trying to tell my parents was that There that he the government feared that Leopoldo was going to be assassinated That there was a plot for his murder and that they wanted to protect Leopoldo on that for that reason They really encouraged him to leave the country or do not come out publicly now Who was plotting that? What you know what evidence they had for that is is unknown and I'm just telling you this story as an inkling to tell you that anything can happen to Leopoldo when he steps out Anybody who can be plotting? An assassination now Again Leopoldo is fearless and I know that the day that Leopoldo comes out He's going to go from one end to the of the country to the other and he's going to walk and millions of people are Going to go behind him and that's going to be his protection. I want to bring you in the conversation a little bit What are your reactions to this and you've seen lots of similar situations to these you've worked on a lot of cases that are similar to this What do you think about all this so? So I'm an international human rights lawyer. My specialty is freeing prisoners of conscience around the world and Leopoldo Lopez is a classic prisoner of conscience You know and his case has become world-renowned because of how outrageous it is what the government is doing to him He's been charged with four crimes Based on what happened on the events of the February of February 12th even though he wasn't actually physically present when security officials opened fire on a crowd and killed three people he's been charged with incitement to commit violence conspiracy to commit violence arson and property damage and Literally actually in the last 24 hours. I have some breaking news to announce Which is that the government's case has officially now fallen apart the claim in the indictment amazingly Was that even though they recognize that he's advocated non-violence even though he's called for change within the framework of the Constitution even though he wants everything to be peaceful the claim was that and even though he wasn't physically present at the events when the people were killed And the security it was you know security officials of the government that opened fire not Protesters opening fire that he used subliminal messages to incite people to violence this was the claim in the indictment and They had a section of the indictment that goes on for several pages explaining how Leopoldo has a style of rhetoric that makes people Very angry at the government and that they don't realize it But it makes them so angry that they decide to go commit violence literally yesterday the trial has been ongoing at a pretty slow pace there was a 12-hour sitting of the trial that went till about 2 in the morning actually this morning and The primary witness for that 12 hours was this court of this this expert who is a university professor expert in linguistics and was the witness that was in the indictment and Although she defended her case on the front end when being questioned by prosecutors under cross-examination She actually acknowledged to the court that Leopoldo was not responsible for the violence that took place with the security officials opening fire that the grievances that he's expressing are Legitimate grievances that reasonable people might have with the government She wasn't taking a position as to whether they were right or wrong but she said these are grievances that a lot of Venezuelans feel and Although we already knew that he didn't have superhero powers to inspire people to Subliminal acts that There was no evidence that he was capable of inspiring people to violence through subliminal messages So the government doesn't need any evidence obviously to convict him of any crime The due process in this case has been equally outrageous and egregious the Just give you a couple quick examples and then we can have more of a discussion But a couple of quick examples You have in his case a hundred witnesses approved for the prosecution the defense proposed 60 witnesses and a whole bunch of videos The videos included him speaking to a crowd of hundreds of thousands and nobody committing any acts of violence people You know screaming cheering, but doing everything non-violent like they denied 58 of the 60 witnesses and all of the videos with no explanation. So a hundred witnesses on one side two on the other side The judge in the case is neither independent or impartial. That's obviously well known with Venezuela It isn't often as a human rights lawyer that I actually get the you know Can actually prove that the judiciary is not independent and partial in this case We actually have proof of this fact There was an initial judge assigned to the case who confirmed the terms of the indictment and she had a friend in Miami Who texted her afterwards because I guess friend believed her to be more pro-democratic and said how could you do that in a text message to the friend to the judge and the judge responded I had no choice or I would lose my job and That probably now former friend went to the media with that text message the media proved that it was the judge's phone and Shockingly the judge is now no longer on the case and in fact, she's now in exile and then I would just say lastly that Obviously a flagrant violation of the presumption of innocence over and over and over again present Maduro attacking the apoldo calling him the murderer of Ramo Verde prison He hasn't been charged with the murder let alone convicted of it. So how is he the murderer of Ramo Verde? Maduro saying publicly that he's guilty and he will pay for his sins All these are of course a clear violation of the presumption of innocence But this is a classic prisoner of conscience case the charges Are outrageous the lack of due process is outrageous and what's happening to the apoldo if it can happen to such a high-profile person Imagine what it's like for the average person on the street who you know a Policeman gets angry for whatever reason it decides to do something to them I mean they have no hope or a prayer if they can do this to someone like Leopold So who does this compare to you? I mean you've worked with a lot of Situations like this does anyone in particular come to mind? Look, I mean, you know, I spent five years representing Ong San Suu Kyi of Burma while she was under house arrest He and she are very similar in a whole host of ways I currently represent also Lee Ushaba of China the 2010 Nobel Peace Laureate I began representing him six months before he won the prize. He was imprisoned for his writings Calling for change in China and calling actually for a transformation of the one-party system into a multi-party democracy The Ushaba remains in prison and I mentioned those names because frankly there is very little difference actually between Leopoldo and the two of them The other two may be slightly better known I think Leopoldo is well in the way to becoming as well known as the two of them and And it's because of what he stands for and I think if you read his speeches and you and you see how Extraordinarily impressive he is you see how fearless he is and the courage with which he's faced down the Maduro government There are so few people in the world today that are inspirational figures I mean, we are looking around for inspiring politicians in the United States. I know I'm looking a lot for people like that You don't see a lot But someone like him who stands for freedom democracy and human rights his motto is all rights for all people And he he's talked about how you know, he won't be the first political prisoner at least released In fact, he will refuse to go unless all of them are released at the same time And despite what he's faced down with his own two children his daughter I mean, it's just such a terrible story heartbreaking story. His daughter man. Manuela asked him in prison in front of Leopoldo asked Leopoldo in front of Lily and his wife, you know, daddy, are you gonna die here in prison? And I think that that kind of gives you a sense of what he is going through personally and how heart-wrenching it must be for what he's going through but People in this circumstance in my experience always come out of prison a hundred times stronger and a hundred times more powerful and The irony is that just merely by sitting in prison as he is and having the world come and rally Support on his behalf and standing up to Maduro the way he is He is inspiring tens of millions hundreds of millions of people around the world And he is a lot more powerful today than when Maduro first locked him up one year ago Can you elaborate a little bit on the news that you shared with us? What would be the next steps if this? Witness has sort of reversed their their testimony. What would be the next steps from a legal? Perspective if only the law mattered in Venezuela. I can I can give you my My political assessment, which is gonna be more valuable than my legal assessment. Obviously I work closely with our Venezuelan lawyers, but The law doesn't matter in Venezuela so far. They've been dragging out this trial rather slowly So a little bit of history will be helpful in 2008 Leopoldo was Served his two four-year terms as the mayor of Chacao the municipality in Caracas the central business district And he was gonna run for mayor of Grand Caracas, and he was up by 20 30 points in the polls He was viewed as being up by five or ten points against Chavez and a hypothetical presidential matchup So the government manufactured some bogus charges against him And ultimately he was disqualified from running for a political office for six for six years The Inter-American court later said that that was in violation of the Inter-American Convention Human Rights the government ignored it so in any event the government didn't think that to worry about the apolo all that much until this past February and then these public protests come about and then You know, he's detained his deprivation of political rights expired this past December and in fact unless he's convicted he can run for parliament next fall even from his prison cell and Unfortunately, I think the government needs to convict him to make him disqualified in order to be able to stand for the parliament It's not clear yet what they're going to do. They've been slow rolling the trial at this point I mean with a hundred witnesses on one side and they were meeting about once a week for six or eight hours at a time You can imagine how long it might take and so far. They don't appear to be in any rush to get to a final outcome And but on the other hand, you know judges in Venezuela have absolute discretion and tomorrow the judge could say I've heard enough We don't need any more witnesses. We're done. I'm gonna issue a judgment So the short answer is I've no idea what's gonna happen Clearly this is damaging to the government, but the government obviously so far doesn't care all that much about How they're being viewed if they charge him with crimes of using subliminal messages to incite people to violence I don't know who they think believes that I can't even imagine that Maduro himself believes that that's actually possible but in any event You know, we're gonna have to see how that plays out ultimately I think what we're seeing swirling around in the background as you alluded to in your your very strong opening is a Rapport downward spiral of the economic and political system in Venezuela and Maduro being under immense pressure, you know Venezuela was 45 billion dollars to China. He recently won on a tour around the world to China to To other lenders to try to drum up more money and support the price of oil has dropped, you know, two-thirds in the last year alone, which has been devastating for Despite having the largest oil reserves in the world. It's been devastating for the Venezuelan economy And you see stories every day about how extraordinarily the Bolivar has been devalued so the question for Maduro is how long can he hold on under under these circumstances and You know, I will say that as a human rights lawyer who's gone up against many authoritarian governments that You know Maduro has been quite helpful to our cause by the way that he's reacted in a whole host of ways to New Paul does imprisonment and to repressing human rights in Venezuela and We'll continue to rely on his assistance to help get Leopoldo out of prison because he's not doing himself any favors here And the question is will he be prepared to walk back from this or is he gonna go down with the ship? I mean, I think that you know at the end of the day if if I were somebody advising Maduro I tell him that the dumbest thing that you did is lock Leopoldo Lopez up And the smartest thing you can do is let him and all the other political prisoners out of jail And yes, of course Leopoldo will march and travel the country But at the but at the end of the day Maduro has some very large problems other than Leopoldo Lopez and he's not addressing them And I think that that's ultimately why Leopoldo is so much more powerful today than he has been in the past because the fundamental problems of Insecurity one person gunned down every 20 minutes 25,000 people last year You know all the economic statistics you were talking about the people of Venezuela are deeply unhappy And it's not that Leopoldo Lopez is going to make them happy It's that Leopoldo wants to directly address the fundamental challenges faced in the country and Maduro does not and by definition That's going to make Leopoldo very very popular. Yeah, and it's only become he's only become more popular since he was detained So the last time we spoke with your brother was when? Three weeks ago and the conditions he's in right now Just grab him a little bit and how long will he be in these because just because What we know is that basically he's being punished right now for having given the interview that he did And the interview that's the CNN interview that I alluded to in the opening You know he's in worse conditions that then the ones that he was In the outset how long is he going to be in those my understanding is that he's not going back to his original cell No, I understand is that that cell was they went in and they spent seven hours Destroying all of his personal belongings which personal belongings in a prison cell amount to books writings photographs and drawings or paintings, I mean which is It's very sad apparently that the Cornell himself was ripping apart photos of his family in front of Leopoldo just Those type of episodes. I think my understanding nobody from my family has seen Leopoldo in this new cell only his lawyer Juan Carlos Gutierrez and it's a small cell and That yes, I just was also taken away from his cell and put in a smaller cell as well I believe that the punishment Solid tire confinement punishment is going to be lifted this weekend They have returned some of his books To him, but I think that he's permanently moved to this smaller cell Okay, well, I want to sort of take an opportunity and get questions from folks in the audience So this is the time if you'd like to ask a question When we start up here in the front Good afternoon, my name is Philip French. I'm a retired State Department I'm also executive director of the American Committees on Foreign Relations. Thank you for being with us All sorts of questions pop up, you know when Carl mentions all these statistics one has to wonder, you know I don't wonder, you know that his that Maduro's numbers are down to 25% I wonder how are they as high as 25% given the situation and so my question is You know, they're supposedly the rift between the Capri Le Tradonci camp and the Lopez Corina Machado camp And is that part of the reason why? Despite things being so bad, there doesn't seem to be a groundswell of support for the opposition and there seems to be a certain sense of Resignation to what's happening in Venezuela. Thank you Politics is a very complicated field and it's not my field of expertise as my brother's It's it's the opposition in Venezuela Has gone through some very dramatic changes over the last year as it is obvious with everything that has happened I do believe that there are people that are More convinced and actually the statistics say it's the highest number It's 80% of the people believe that things need to change now whether they are going for one candidate another or one political party or another It's uh, it's it's unclear I think that the people that are in certain positions are trying as hard as they can to keep those posts So they can confront the government, but the government arbitrarily is taking Mayors out of their positions this morning the alcaldeza de apure from voluntad popular Was taken arbitrarily out of her post Antonio Ledesma the mayor of Caracas was taken out of his post arbitrarily and It is it is very hard for the people to support the whichever opposition is empowered right now because the government is really circling and asphyxiating what little Positions they have I do believe deeply that things are are are changing in such a way that there will be a consolidation and a coherent plan that will come out, but I do think that that the problems right now are beyond politics because it's an insecurity issue It's an economic issue Those things are what's really playing the country right now and people want answers for they want changes for that Not so much a political rally. It's not what they're looking for I think we're gonna go over here, and then we'll come back over here. We can get a microphone, please And if you don't journal is from Argentina the last question to the State Department about Venezuela I did it personally three days ago Related to the situation of Venezuela. What's going on the point of view from the State Department? I wasn't the briefing three days ago. I was asking them What are their views what they think is going on and if they're only going to do statements? And when I finished the briefing one of the journalists told me I don't know if the US really is doing much more in Venezuela than only said sending statements Maybe they don't care as much as before So my point of view is what do you expect from from the US? Are you? feeling that The Obama administration is really engaged in the situation of Venezuela or this is another case and they are waiting For a change or maybe here for another government to take this on what what do you think? What's what's your real sensation of what is going on from Washington to Venezuela? So earlier on Washington has shown support by voicing their concern In specifically about the polo Obama mentioned the polo in a speech I do think however that it makes It's not as important what the US thinks if the US is standing alone I think it's important for the Americas to step up and I'm actually most disappointed on the Latin American countries I believe that if you're going to compare apples to apples The United States has actually been more supportive of the Venezuelan people and the crisis that they're facing Than our brother countries in South America and in Central America and let me mention I mean yes, the United States is important obviously we're here in Washington But support for the polo and the Venezuelan human rights cause has been global and I've been Honored to travel with Lillian Tintori around the world We met the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights who issued a very strong and public statement We most recently met Jose Miguel and salsa here in Washington The president of the European Parliament and we have had extraordinary support all around the world advocating for freedom democracy and human rights as well Look, I think what Leopoldo has said and and of course I'm focused on this as a human rights matter not as a political matter Leopoldo said is that it's up to each country in the world to decide how they want to react and respond to Venezuela And so I'm not going to get out in front of him on that what I will say is you know I was in the meeting with Lillian Tintori and the other Venezuelans with vice president Biden sitting across the table from him for half an hour and There is no question in my mind that he knows exactly what is going on in Venezuela that he cares deeply about what's happening to Leopoldo Lopez and other political prisoners and and he's spoken a range of ways in that context about What the United States has been doing and intends to do and so I would say that yes It's important the United States continue to speak out and to take action obviously You know the administration's indicated that that will implement the Venezuelan bill that was adopted this past December They've already been a range of travel bans put in place on some 20 plus Venezuelan officials But at the end of the day, I couldn't agree more with the Adriana. I mean where is Latin America, right? I mean we had the you know president Santos of Colombia standing alone and to his immense credit especially given the intersection of interests between Colombia and And Venezuela he spoke out for the release of political prisoners in the country But the rest of Latin America has been absent and and to me that's surprising because of how important Venezuela is to the region Venezuela doesn't turn the ship around and start to do things much differently the impact if it Emplodes economically in the entire region and the security impact in the region would be absolutely devastating and so to my mind I very much hope the countries like Brazil and Argentina and Chile and Mexico You know stand up Particularly with the forthcoming summit of the Americas and start to take action I guess the last thing I have to note which is very important is the change in US relationship with Cuba and That Maduro now is very much obviously It's not like overnight the situation with Cuba has changed completely There are major human rights challenges in Cuba. I say that as a human rights lawyer but the US relationship with Cuba is not the same as it was for the last 60 years and My hope is that that changing dynamic will also give the United States more Ability to engage with Latin America on Venezuela as well. And you know I'm confident that the United States will be bringing up Venezuela Cuba at the summit of the Americas and Really though I would ask where is Latin America at the end of the day if the neighbors don't care Then it's going to be very very hard to put serious pressure on the girl. You get the question up here Hi, my name is Andrea. I am from Argentina too and my question was very related to the one that he did I would like to know if you can explain a bit better What's the support that you're receiving from the Latin American government and not only the government's also the civil societies of organizations? Because you know that in Argentina we have a lot of civil societies Organization that are working very hard in the human rights issues And I would like to know if you're receiving any support or not and how do you feel about it? So just to frame it a little bit because I think it's important as you mentioned a really Important point both of you support from Latin America so you've had a history in countries in Latin America of authoritarian governments and violations of human rights from the right and You also have an experience now that I guess would be defined being more from the left of authoritarianism and You still don't have and I think for a long time you had voices Protesting against authoritarianism from the right, but here you have authoritarianism from the left And people seem to be silent and that's something that I think is a contradiction With regards to just challenges in general that the region is faced and I I join in what you're saying I think that it's a That it's a bit strange To say it nicely But and I want to pursue this a little bit more with the mechanisms that you would have within the OAS To deal with human rights violations of the international criminal law all the all the relevant Branches of multilateral government. Is there any way of dealing with this within that framework? Not just with what you're doing in Venezuela Sure, and I'll let you answer So let me say two things one is I didn't mean at all to exclude Demo Rousseff and Brazil Who of course is probably the most important person of all in terms of relating on these issues and is obviously from the political left and Previously was in prison herself and has been Unwilling to engage with Maduro On these issues. Look, I mean, I think the OAS is complicated. We all know I think the summit of the Americas will be a Very interesting time I think that the fact that the Secretary General of the OAS has been willing now to be outspoken about Venezuela Whereas in the past he has not Demonstrates I think a change in some attitudes, which I think is very very valuable You know, there's been motions recently to put Venezuela on the table within the OAS context and to have you know direct discussions there I suspect when all the presidents sit down together in the room in some of the Americas We're gonna see direct, you know questions being asked on what's happening in Venezuela So there are definitely mechanisms within the OAS that said we also know the OAS is deeply divided And when we up Karina Machado was looking to speak to the OAS, you know You had a majority voting to keep the room closed and then denying her the ability to speak And I think at the end of the day that speaks volumes about where Latin America is but it's interesting I've had we've had a lot of discussions. We've traveled the world We've met privately with a lot of Latin American diplomats and they speak about non-interference and you know When you're talking to governments that have come from authoritarian Context we have directly raised with them. Well, that's okay That's interesting that you're talking about non-interference and I understand that given the history of Latin America and interference Shall we say from outside the region? You are very sensitive to that But is that what you were calling for when you were living in under authoritarian government? Did you want non interference? Did you want the world to be silent? Did you not people want people to speak up for human rights and democracy and by the way it turns out of Course as we all know that then as well a sheltered many many people who were fleeing Pinochet and Chile or you know various Latin American dictatorships where are you supporting the people of Venezuela not the government but the people of Venezuela who were there when you were living under dictatorship yourself and Unfortunately, we haven't gotten any good answers to those questions except that you know We hear what you're saying and thank you for sharing and you know It's I think that this hopefully will be the drumbeat in the run-up to the summit of the Americas which is is the OAS Going to stand silent or is it going to be counted in this situation because again to me It isn't just about the upload on the political prisoners of human rights, although to me that's a central issue But it's also about what is the effect of Venezuela's? Collapse going to have on the region and why aren't countries in Latin America more worried about that? And so that to me is a critical question. So to your points. I have two points one is and to answer you directly We have not received Venezuela has not really received support from sitting Governors, but there are there has been an outpour of support for Leopoldo specifically as well as for the human right violations in Venezuela from numerous Organizations all over the continent. I don't know that the namescapes me But there's a commission of human rights or there's a congregation of human rights groups and every one of those organizations has pronounced itself in support of Venezuela asking for Leopoldo's liberation Ex-presidents have shown support for Leopoldo and for political prisoners In fact, some of them tried to visit and we're not allowed to visit Leopoldo I think the issue is you're asking about the Obama administration So we're talking about sitting governments and what are those sitting politicians doing or not doing the people that? Have less a stake so to speak because they're not sitting on the on the on the top of the pinnacle have been very outspoken the other point about right or left if you care to know we've had support from International socialista which is left for Leopoldo and for a voluntary popular and for political prisoners in Venezuela We've had support from Pinera who is from the right in Chile So I don't think that this is a right or left issue when you're talking about human rights violations It cannot be divided in a left or a right and in Venezuela right now The problem is a deep violation of human rights Yeah, go all the way in the back Hi, I'm Pedro O'Reilly. I'm a friend of Leopoldos and the family One of the things that the family has done with the help of Jared is raised the cost for the government of having Leopoldo in jail obviously The news about the case has gone You know way up in the last months so people are beginning to know him like other famous political prisoners The problem and what I wanted to ask Jared from your perspective and your experience is as a cost of keeping him goes up The cost of releasing him also goes up Leopoldo has become the symbol of a lot in Venezuela While there are people who might not have agreed with him at the beginning I think it would be a little bit like Adriana said if he's released the government knows that so the government was fearful of him in 2004 and in 2005 and in 2006 and onwards They've actually built a very powerful Partition who for any of us who listened to him in CNN He was ten times better on CNN than a year ago. I mean and he was good a year ago What happens Jared? How do we get a government who has obviously made a huge mistake? Realizing that it's worse enemy has become a massively powerful individual How do you get an out for a government so that we don't have to wait for the government to go away as a means of Getting Leopoldo out. Is there a mechanism by which somehow this can be negotiated because I think this is what happens with this very powerful Prisons of conscious that they become almost too difficult to release. Yeah, well, it's a great question Pedro It's I've spent 15 years of my life pondering that over and over and over again on every case that I work on What I would say is this and there are different people that will play different roles here our role on behalf of Leopoldo and the family is to use his story to tell the story of Venezuela around the world and for The family to advocate for his freedom out of their political prisoners and for justice and accountability for perpetrators There will be others who will be looking for easy ways out for Venezuela or face-saving ways out and frankly that is in our role At the end of the day Maduro would never let Leopoldo out Whether he was as well known as he is now or whether he wasn't when they put him in prison He was already a big threat and that's why they locked him up And so my experience has been that the only thing the dictators understand is fear, right? that is the only emotion that drives them is fear and Maduro will not let him out because he wants to he will never let him out because he wants to he will let him out because he has to and it will be because he is looking at two bad choices and The least worst alternative is letting Leopoldo out And so our role and what we will continue to do and we are going to fight aggressively and strongly and repeatedly and Relentlessly is to raise the cost of Maduro in every forum that we travel around the world to keep the pressure on Maduro to tell the Apollo's story, you know and And to lead it to the world to put pressure on the government of Venezuela Others will figure out how there's a graceful exit for Maduro Obviously, we're talking to lots of people and people including people who talk to the government of Venezuela But I agree with you, you know, it is always a trade-off between the rising Costs and the rising benefits and you're right He will be released and he'll be dramatically more powerful at the end of the day the question for Maduro I think it's going to become is he going to maintain his grip on power because everything is going to spin out of control or If he releases Leopoldo will he have a lifeline thrown to him by a couple of governments that will enable him to remain in power And if it's a choice between remaining in power versus a chai chescu outcome, you know, or or otherwise I'm thinking Maduro is pretty smart and he's going to want to live and he's going to run a maintenance charge But he'll never let him out because he wants to it's only because he has no choice And so our job is to make it as painful and as difficult and as frustrating and as infuriating as we can And that is exactly what we are doing and that is what we're going to keep doing until he makes the right decision There's another I think you had a question sir. Yeah glasses. Let me get a microphone quickly Yes, I'm back Rowsky. I just wanted also a good friend of your father Leopoldo How much why is the Leopoldos case and whole Venezuela's case not really placed in the context of the reality of a government receiving 97% of all the export income the country It's sort of a such a concentration of power That anything can happen in any type of country like that and sometime when I speak with some of the people in the OES and all that What I hear Government people is a sort of envy Over the type of power that the governments of Venezuela have and they don't So so why is it not really never displaced in the context of just an excessive? Power government power no matter what no matter what in the country Imagine this country if 97% of all the export revenues of the US went into the government It's it's just you know Mind-boggling to think of it So I think that we have to also place it Leopoldo in that context what is happening to him and what is happening to others This is just too powerful government and with such power anything can happen Well, I mean it is a downturn situation and if we were If we let would you the picture that you painted if we let that lead us or lead Leopoldo Then we would give up and and I think that They've thankfully in history there are people like Leopoldo and other people in Venezuela that are fighting because they do believe that Although they are the most powerful that there is a David to fight Goliath I mean that's all I can say I just I wonder why Leopoldo took up this fight And it's because he believes that he can make a change because if nobody stands up to the government Then they will stay in power if nobody cares. It's it's it's I mean it's worth noting one of the things that has been found interesting is look I do human rights. I don't do politics but obviously I read things before I take up a case about who my Potential client might be and when I was reading about Leopoldo before I got involved in the case You know, I saw that kind of the Shavistas and the government portrayed him as being of the political right and of him being You know part of a lead aristocracy of Venezuela and and I think that the the one thing that I've learned is you know Getting to know him getting to know his family over the last seven or eight months is I mean that is about as far off as an assessment as one can Can come up with and I think that you know when I write his speeches and what he stood for the speech He gave on February 12th when I've seen his platforms and what he argues for, you know, he's a human rights partisan He's not a political partisan I mean he's called for change to the government of Venezuela through the Constitution and the means provided in the Constitution non-violently and in accordance with the rule He's called for human rights for all people, you know He's called for reforming the economic system of Venezuela so that that the poor have a fighting shot at it and You know at the end of the day, these are all just political labels that get thrown around but I mean What he stands for and what he's advocating for to me as a human rights lawyer is purely straight down the middle You know freedom democracy and human rights, you know And so I think that you know There are obviously a whole lot Much broader set of problems going on that as well right now that are more than just human rights But I think that on his behalf the family has decided to focus on human rights because frankly unless you have Fundamental human rights assured for all people in a country free speech freedom of association freedom to vote for your political leaders Right the rule of law without any of those basic fundamental human rights The ability to actually address the problems of a country of the size of the problems of Venezuela Are next to impossible really because you can't ever hold the government to account for the bad decisions It's making and governments like that that are authoritarian are corrupt inefficient and unaccountable And so I think that Leopoldo's arguments that he puts forward which are focused on human rights first Is actually probably the only way that Venezuela has a fighting chance to turn the ship around economically and politically in this country Think we're gonna I think there were two other questions So we're gonna take those two questions, and I think we're gonna wrap up so the gentleman over there and then the lady up here Actually taking in mr. Lopez is definitely a violation of freedom of speech But taking in mr. Lizama at the same time Let is my to say a little later makes this more of a case of trying to get rid of the opposition The question is what is the relation the second question is what? Situation what act Could have triggered this situation and the last question is how much of an influence has the Cuban Secret service or the security apparatus in present Venezuela So so why now is I guess part of the question So so let us my along with my record in a metal Have accompanied and supported Leopoldo's plight so the three of them were of the opposition very outspoken in their in their Asks of the government for change Leopoldo went first. I I believe because they fear Leopoldo the most They went after Ledesma, I don't understand why they went after the desma and not others all at once if there was a conspiracy You would assume they will be more than one person They just took one instead of taking the whole posse and get rid of that It's the decisions that this government makes are puzzling And you know if it feels a smart government it wouldn't be making this this decisions I I think everybody's very puzzled as to why they literally kidnapped The the mayor of Caracas the city mayor of Caracas from his office with no evidence I can only presume that they're more coming. This is a matter of time. They are scared of the opposition That's what this is a desperate government and they're doing desperate things Cuba has been in Venezuela for a long time and so that's a conversation for another Another session right up here. Hi, Heather Scott from Market News International. I think I wanted to ask you What it is further continuing what you were just saying a little moment ago What is it that you would like to see happen that is most likely to trigger some kind of change is an outpouring from human rights organizations Latin American governments with the OES You know action help it doesn't seem them a do it was Sympathetic to any sort of outside pressure. So what do you think needs to happen? That would force his hand and force him to at least sit down the negotiating table to change these policies Well, the Venezuelan government preceding Maduro the Venezuelan Chavez's government has a history of not Responding to any type of international Sanctions that have been bestowed upon them in Leopoldo's case specifically in the Human Rights Commission in Costa Rica in the case of Judge Afuni when she actually ruled because of the United Nations decision on arbitrary detention in Leopoldo's case when they ruled that Leopoldo's attention was arbitrary They have not freed him it is a government that does not care about international Organizations, although it is in our Constitution that international decisions supersede National national rulings so they are in blatant What I'm looking for disregard disregard of the Constitution of Venezuela and all the international treaties that we are in So what can we hope we can hope for pressure now realistically? What's gonna turn? The government around I think the only thing is that the world comes to a consensus that stops buying oil from Venezuela You have to cut the cash It's the only thing because any any any type of legal pressure that has been put upon the government They seem to disregard it now Do we need to keep the pressure on absolutely the more eyes and awareness that there is about the Venezuelan political prisoners Including Leopoldo the safer they can be Leopoldo they have threatened to move Leopoldo to twice already to some very dangerous prisons in Venezuela and They have not and I believe that in large part They haven't done that because there has been so much international Awareness about every movement about Leopoldo So what I ask of the international community is to maintain the pressure and Maintain the awareness of Venezuela because if we let loose then they're gonna get away with murder Well, those are individual sanctions and that's that that's something that each government decides what to do But I do think that there need to be more than just pronouncement They need to be some specific actions that hurt individuals in power I will say though that the that on the one hand they don't appear to be changing their behavior based on the public outcry but they also are lashing out in ways that are irrational and and entertaining in a whole host of ways by the claims that they make and that actually helps us a lot I mean, I've gone up against authoritarian governments that are as nasty as they get take a china for example, right? They don't respond publicly at all anymore these days because they know that even the United States the UK and France are gonna be Soft peddling on human rights because we have lots of intertwining interests, right? And the fact that Maduro keeps publicly responding to all of these attacks that are on him demonstrates profound weakness Profound weakness because if he was not if he was strong and if he was confident He could just do what he wanted and not care what anybody had to say but he has his narrative he has to put out for the shavistas and He has to be viewed as internationally defending the honor of Venezuela and to me that demonstrates that there is an opportunity here To move of Venezuela, which frankly is dramatically harder to move a china And and so I do think that that provides a moment of hope to think that you know rather than saying, okay Let's step back and let's kind of regroup right what we're doing is working, right? And we need to take it to the next level and we need to keep the pressure on Last question right here You just get the microphone Here's the microphone Just to follow up on your comment about About oil and buying oil so my understanding is the United States is actually the only Country that pays market price. Obviously the market price is down right now So should in your view should the US play the oil card should the US stop? I'm not to say that I don't have enough information to say that but it's just an epithetical this is a apathetical answer to a Government that does not respond to many pressures that come internationally I think that in the end cutting oil from Venezuela would end up really hurt in Venezuelans because it is Where we get the money to keep the country going That's not the answer the answer is Real change real hard economic decisions need to be made to turn the country around and Let an oil producing country do what it does which is effectively produced oil and other things to maintain a healthy economy So what having said that I want to thank Kenyon College for helping make this happen Jared Thank you so much and in particular. I just want to thank you Adriana for coming Sharing this it has to be difficult to have your brother in that situation But you're doing the right thing by Going out there and building awareness of his case and of what's happening in Venezuela So if you could all join me in a round of applause, thank you so much